Will God Still Love Me If I Abort?

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord, I am yours. I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. What do you respond to a young lady that says, well, God still love me if I have the abortion. I'm going to talk about this from a biblical perspective, so stay tuned. I felt show passish, touch your heart. Use Me. Welcome back to the Gospel Center Praer Life podcast. Appreciate you guys listening and we would encourage you guys to share this podcast so that it can be a blessing to other people encourage other people also encourage you.

0:47 As always. Good our sidewalks for life website sidewalks the number four lifecom. There's a section there called equipping articles to help equip you and as always, are almost always we have a corresponding article that goes along with this podcast and we kind of use that as our framework to do this episode of the Podcast, and we speak out of experience when we share these stories. We share you. We've shared case studies in times past of situations we've actually encountered and recently we've been sharing some training stuff just to equip you guys. Continue to train those who who've already been trained and encourage those who haven't yet been trained with some of the training stuff. And, as I've mentioned in a couple of episodes, we have a training that we do every month, the first Saturday of every month, from to pm to four PM, where we own zoom train folks to do sidewalk out reachs. We take our experiences, we take what we use locally as our training for our volunteers and we make it available to you. If you want to get plugged in with that, you could reach out to me, Daniel at Love Life Dot Org, and I'll get you the necessary form to fill out. I would just need an application from you with some information about you and get you in the hopper to attend that. So we encourage you to take advantage of that. We think it'll be a real blessing to you. And with that this subject that we're going to be covering, maybe you kind of once we get into it, you understand what we're talking about here. But the title of the article is the article that I have right here, written by written by Vicky, and

2:23 it says what if they ask, will God still love me if I abort? Yeah, and so the question well be what does anybody ever ask that? Well, if you're at an abortion center any amount of time, you're going to find maybe not this question exactly, but some variation of this question. Lover, forgive God, steel forgive me. Won't God still forgive me? Sometimes it's not a question, sometimes it's it's a definite statement. Right, God loves me and God will forgive me. Yeah, and so what do you say in those situations? I know we've talked about forgiveness and how we introduce the subject of forgiveness. Certainly, God is a forgiving God. God is a god of mercy. We sit here now recording this podcast because of the mercy and the forgiveness that God has brought in our lives. Yep, we are here now because of the love of God towards us. God loves human beings. The evidence of that, of course, is the cross of Jesus Christ, and so we see the mercy, we see the love of God. The real issue is, I'll let you share kind of the foundation of this, let you share where this float out of. But the real issue is, I think, one of timing and one of wording and how we word, because we don't want to word things in such a way.

3:40 It's what we talked about, not sharing the message of forgiveness while they're walking into the abortion say right, yelling to a mom that's walking into an abortion center God will forgive you is almost, almost one of the worst things you could possibly say. It is, but that it's one of the few bad things that you can say that really will fuel that abortion. Absolutely yeah, because what these women are looking for a lot of times are grasping for a justification to abort their child and we don't want to give them a justification to do that. So is it true that God's forgiving? Yes, is it true that God will forgive those women if they have an abortion? Not necessarily. Actually, biblically speaking, God doesn't forgive. God's not beholding to human beings. Right. God doesn't have to forgive anyone for anything. God choose us to forgive of people based on repentance of sin and faith in Jesus Christ. So if you're yelling out God will forgive you, you're actually not sharing the whole truth, because it's not always true that God's going to forgive them. If they don't repent, then they won't be forgiven. If they don't put their trust in Jesus Christ, then there's no basis for forgiveness.

4:46 Right. So, not to get to death to end depth with the theological truth of that, but it's a theological truth that we all need to reckon with its biblical truth. Yeah, because sometimes we can speak out of our own emotions, in our own excitement or own grief or whatever, and say some things that are just not helpful. But I want you to share what this flowed out of while we're talking about this subject now and then we'll kind of break it down biblically, practically and all that. So this happened to me this week. This this was a question raised to me this week. This is a young lady that I've been counseling for months. Yeah, I mean I've got a relationship with her now. It's been it's been over two months. I think it's going on three months now that I've been counseling her.

5:27 I know she trusts me. She I think she loves me. I love her. She's we have a strong relationship. I've been discipling her. I've been she came to the Lord. She when she first called me, she was very abortion minded. But she chose life, she came to the Lord and what followed was we basically provided every single need that she raised everything. Yeah, and I've been tech in her, calling her hours every day for months and then out of the blue she didn't contact me for a few days. That's always worrisome, and when she finally did, this was what she asked me. So I of course knew what was happening. So she says, I get specifically abortion, will God still love me? Will God still love me if I have the abortion? And some and this is immediately the tension in my mind is okay, on one hand I'm thinking, well, God will still love her if she has the abortion and she repents and turns back to him. Just what you said. But I knew what she was really asking me was, first of all, will you still love me?

6:49 Yeah, if I have the abortion. She did actually say that later. But secondly, can I go have this abortion? I want to have this abortion. Yeah, can you assure me that it's okay? That was really what she was asking Aspen for. Just she's grasping for justification. So I'm thinking, okay, I can't do that, but on the other hand this is a young girl and I'm thinking, what if she shuts off all communication, I never get ahold of her again. She goes and has the abortion and then is so filled with the grief of thinking God will never forgive her, will never love her again, that she commits suicide or that she lives her life no longer. It just in bitterness, hurt, anger against God and against the world because she feels she is unforgiven. Right, and I'm thinking in my own mind, I'm here because I had an abortion and God forgave me. Yeah, how can I not tell her, yes, you can be forgiven, there can be life following abortion, but don't head, don't kill your baby, don't kill this this precious child. So it was real for me. This question in this podcast is very fresh and very real for me. Yeah, and and so I kind of went through a whole process of how I solved that as best I knew how. Yeah, and and that was kind of the article. It's based on the progression of

8:22 things that went through my head. But the the first thing that went through my head was I can't answer that question, that there is lose lose. I can't think of any way to answer that question. And ultimately I came to the decision that wasn't the question. Yeah, that she should be asking and that I need. That's what I needed to say. But so it was kind of a progression. I kind of wanted to go through that progression. I know you'll have you'll have ideas about every one of these areas, but one of the things that that as the discussion progressed, was I was thinking, this is something that is really hard to teach. Yeah, there is an art of counseling, and by that I mean it's not a formula.

9:16 Right, it's not a formula. We can't tell you do this and then, if she says this, say this and then if she says this, say this. That's net. That never works. Right. There is an IT. It is it's almost like a dance in a way, between you and the person you're counseling. They say or make a move and you are trying to be with them and in sync with them, that you hear the cry of their heart, not necessarily the words, sure, and you respond appropriate, like a dancer, yeah, following his partners or he partner leading. Yeah, I'll say one of the components, the I would say maybe probably the most important component mm of counseling conversation in general is, first and foremost, listening. Yeah, actually hearing what they're saying and listening in such a way where you're getting the emotion that they're bringing. Now know, obviously over the phone or through text, it's pretty difficult in a one on conversation, especially though. We need to be listening, we need to be watching body language, we need to be reading between the lines, not not attributing evil motives and ultimate arterior motives to people and that sort of thing, but reading between the lines of whether actually saying so. For example, when someone says will God still love me if I abhorred? Reading the between the

10:52 lines is picking up on the fact that they're looking for some kind of justification to have the abortion right. They're really not asking a question, they're telling you something that they believe. YEA, and it is important for us if we're going to give good and godly counsel. The Bible says we shouldn't stand under the council of the wicked right. The council the wicked brings destruction. So we're the righteous because of Jesus, and we want to bring righteous counsel. You going to be listened to what people are saying and then answering the questions in a biblical manner right instead of just out of our own humanity, because out of our own humanity and out of her own kind of emotions or whatever, right away we want to respond with we yes, of course God will love you, because we wanted to spell any notion that somehow God might be a God of judgment, you know, in our American Christian mindsets.

11:37 Right, I want to try to dispel any notion that God might actually hate people or hate things that people do. It's a right away we want respond, of course you'll love you. Yeah, but that, I might not actually be the best response, right because really, re reading between the lines, whe they're saying, of course, listen. I'll just say it right off. Bad. Of course God loved me while I was dead in my trespasses and sins. The Bible says that while we were yet, while we were at sinners, yeah, Romans five eight, yeah, God demonstrated his own love toward us. If we didn't have a love toward us, then he wouldn't have had anything to demonstrate. Right. So we did have a love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for us. So he not just loved us in his in his eternal heart, but he actually did something to display that love. The Cross is that display?

12:31 So, yes, God loves sinners, God loves rebels. He loved me while I was a rebel. Right, he loved you. Why you are rebel. So yes, that's true. But in this situation, is it really the best thing to say, given what we know, that she's digging for? She's digging for justification right to board her child? Right? I don't think that it is. Yeah, yeah, and I didn't think so either, and so I knew I could not answer that question. So there's I love what you said. You have to listen first and asking other question, asking questions and as you're listening, helping to lead them, hopefully, to the true heart issue. Yeah, which is really should I have this abortion? That's what she's saying. Is it okay to have this abortion?

13:18 Yeah, I think in listening in that particular conversation, one of the questions I would ask, and again I'm not asking in some accusing way. I think we have to be careful in the way that we come across that we're not asking in some accusing way, right, because we can shut the conversation down immediately. But if she asked me this question, God still love me if I aboord? I'll ask. Okay, can you? Can you explain to me exactly why you're asking that question, exactly what I did. We are INSTINC here, Daniel, that did it. I said, what are you saying? Well, what are you saying and that, and then she was very open. She said I want to, I'm going to go aboard the Child. Shouldn't and wasn't a question. Then it is. I'm going to go aboard my baby. Yeah, that was what she said.

14:01 You know, one of the things that I would say in that particular conversation, because I like to I like to take people's again, not in some like manipulative way or whatever it, take the thoughts that they're thinking, the things they put out there and kind of turn it back on them as a mirror. I think that's biblical. Yeah, is the word of God is a mirror to us. Speaks of that in James Chapter two. I think that the law of God is a mirror. And so if she's asking me, well, God still love me if I abort this child, I'll ask her, well, Does God love you now? And most people will say yes. This is kind of my full proof pro life argument, right.

14:41 Is God's God love you? Yes, and then ask the question. Okay, when did God begin to love you? Was it five minutes ago, was it five years ago? Was it when you were born? Or did God love you even before you were born? And biblically, and I think we want to lead them to the point where they understand that God loved them before they're even born and established that as a biblical truth, because it is. Yeah, and then take it a little step further and say, well, if God loved you before you were born, he loves you now. Doesn't he also love your baby? So then, are you using the love of God as justification to kill another person that God also loves? That, to me, is the question needs to be put out there. Yeah, and that's really, really good way of phrasing it. Yeah, she had.

15:33 I had had, because I've been trained by the best. I had already had the discussion with her previously over those months about your fail safe pro life argument, and it definitely was very convincing to her. Yeah, so she had heard that. She had already heard that. I did not question it in the way that you say it again, because I think what you said at the end there, the way you phrase that, was really good. Yeah, just asking the question. Are you using the love of God for you to justify you taking the life of someone who God also loves? Right, yeah, and in essence, what you're trying to bring before them is you are you trying to are you trying to say that God somehow loves you more than he loves your baby? Right, even though he loved you and new you all you're in your mother's womb. He loves and knows your baby, but you're trying to use that love that he has for using it as a justification to kill your child. Yeah, yeah, so you're putting it back in her court also. Then, instead of answering the question, you're actually asking another question. Right, that in dress one who think I can't thought. Right. Yeah, want to, yea provoke thought, and you want to bring in the component that I think it's very important in any of these situations is conviction. Like you want them to feel the conviction.

16:48 A lot of times, getting people to repeat the things that they said. Yeah, things that, to your ears, are like doesn't she see how stupid that sounded. I don't know, I'll just say for me, I don't know. I've said things that are just really stupid in my wife repeats it back to him like yeah, that was pretty pretty stupid. Right. Sometimes it takes us repeating something back, or maybe he's rewarding it and say are you saying this then? So, are you saying them because God loves you and even though he does love your baby, that somehow he loves you more than your baby? Yeah, and what are you basing that on? You know? So saying it back and and maybe getting them to repeat it back sometimes can be a little convicting, because think to your next point as we want to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and exactly. The conviction does not come from us, right, comes from the Holy Spirit. So it's got a and and so Jesus fought Satan through scripture.

17:44 Yeah, so bringing in that, that scriptural conviction, yeah, absolute less critical and giving the Holy Spirit space right to do his work. I know in conversations, in one on one conversations with MOMS and dad's on the sidewalk, we can kind of get because it is a life and death scenario. We can kind of get really excited and we can kind of get into situation where we're just saying our peace and we're trying to get all the information out there that we can, but we do need to give space to listen to them and then give space to the Holy Spirit to do his work right, to drop, you know, I like to drop some truth bombs and just let him stew on it for a couple of seconds rather than me just trying to jump in and throw another, another truth bomb in there. Right, you got to give people time to process things, to think about it, to repeat what was just said, to stew on it in their minds, and then again, the Holy Spirit can do his work, because we can do all that we want, we can throw out all kinds of scriptures, we can throw out all kinds of ideas and try to do as best we can to convict someone make them feel guilty, but in reality it's the Holy Spirit that's if anyone's ever going to do that in a productive way, bring conviction and make people feel guilty, which, by the way, the Holy Spirit does do that. The Holy Spirit does make people feel guilty.

19:00 This whole notion that God is not a god of guilt. God does alleviate guilt if we turn to him, but he uses guilt to bring conviction so that people will repent. Right. So guilt in this scenario is a good thing. This young lady needs to feel the Gilt of her rebellion, yeah, of her consideration of aborting a child that God loves. It's made in his image. So we need to give space again for the Holy Spirit to bring guilt, yeah, to bring conviction. Yeah, so the ultimately they can be led to repentance. Yeah. So let relying on the Holy Spirit. And then I knew, and that's part of where I think you're also heading, is, is I knew that she needed to be confronted with some really hard questions. Absolutely, and the only way that I felt that I could do that is because of my next kind of big point. I had a relationship with her, and not everyone can have months to develop a relationship with an abortion minded mom, but use whatever time you have to develop a relationship. Yeah, however shallow a relationship or quick a relationship it might be, but where you're establishing trust. And so, knowing that, knowing that the power of conviction comes from the Holy Spirit, I knew I needed to hit her with some really hard truths. YEA, and key to that is when. When is the best timing? Early on and developing the relationship with

20:34 her, that was not the time to be describing an excruciating detail an abortion. Yeah, but now, with a advanced pregnancy, she needed it to know, she needed to know what was going to happen, yeah, to that child. And and so you can't bring the I think you have to. Again, it's part of the art of counseling. But I don't think you can introduce those super, super hard truth right away or they'll just turn off though, hang up the phone, they'll walk away, they'll walk into the abortion center. So I do think those those truths have to come after you've prayed, after the Holy Spirit has entered in some degree and has started that feeling of guilt and conviction within them, and after there is at least some element of trust with you, that that you can say something and they're not just going to run away. Throughout the the next segment of that discussion with her, I thought, I mean I was desperate. I was feeling desperate because she was still saying I'm going to I'm going to kill this baby.

21:45 There's I love you, Vicky, but there's nothing you can say. At one point I said I have nothing left to say, I've said all I know to say to you, and she said there is nothing you can say. Yeah, and I think that was the point in which I went to you, Daniel, and said I don't know what to do, and you basically said you do nothing. You know, you've kind of said it all. It might be time to just wait and and let the Holy Spirit convict, which I did for one evening, and that was about as long as I could stand not saying anything that next morning because I was afraid that was the morning she was going to abort. Yeah, and I don't know why I thought that, but I I then just really I laid it on pretty thick. I described in detail what happens, what a baby the bit the age of her baby would be going through. Yeah, I sent her multiple videos of babies the age of her baby. Sure in you to row the actual videos of actual babies. I sent her a video of an abortion.

22:52 Yeah, and and then there was silence and and I asked her if she watched any of them and she said no, I can't. Yeah, and then I said, you can't watch them because you know that if you do, it will convict you, you of the truth, of God's truth, that this is a little person in your boom and that you're thinking of doing something really unspeakable. Yeah, I want to mention here you're talking about kind of a more in depth and at length conversation that you've had with a young lady. Yeah, and there's scenarias in which were able to do that.

23:40 Yeah, at an abortion center, in front of the abortion center, in a sidewall caunseling scenario. We're not always is able to write, but there's still this this kind of progression of things is still possible, and I do feel like this, I guess, progression of things is important. YEA, that we're not coming out right off the bat with the hard hitting stuff, right, the violence that abortion brings. Yeah, because what we want to do, like you mentioned, and it's kind of like a micro causm, I guess, of what you're dealing with on the sidewalk in a maybe thirty, forty five minute conversation is build a relationship, and you build a relationship with some money and you can build a relationship with somebody in ten or fifteen minutes now. It's not going to be obviously a very deep relationship.

24:25 It's not going to have all the you know, all the benefits of an indepth, lengthy relationship. Yeah, but you can build a relationship and one of the ways you do that is by, like they say, and it's maybe Cliche, but people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Right, showing them that you care, showing them that you're concerned about the things that are going on on your in their life, not just writing off. Listen, we know, we all agree, everybody who's listening to this podcast agrees with this. If you don't, then you can stop listening to this podcast, that there is no justification to kill a baby. There's no justification for abortion, absolutely no justification for it. That being said, though, we should not just immediately right off the justifications these people are using, because if you want to tear down the relationship, then do that. Then right off people's concerns. You know, husband and wife relationship. Listen husband's if you want to really ruin your relationship with your wife and you want a fast track to do that, then right off her concerns.

25:29 Yeah, say what, they don't matter. Listen, look at this, look at that. You know, do the same thing wives, if you want to just ruin your relationship with your husband, and hopefully you guys will take the opposite of ice here. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, need to take people's concerned seriously, even though sometimes they're stupid concerns. They're not justifiable concerns, at least in their minds they are for a season. So we need to listen to those concerns. We need to let them know that we care about those concerns. Yeah, and listen. I think God cares about those concerns. Now he just because God cares about the concerns that people have doesn't mean he justifies the behavior that they want to use in the light of those concerns. Right. So being concerned, helping people to see that you're concerned, is not agreement that their concern is a valid one.

26:15 Yeah, but it's at least listening, because you cannot have a relationship with another person if there isn't conversation, and conversation includes you talking and you listening. They talk and they listen, right, and that's the foundation of this relationship. On the sidewalks the foundation that relationship. You're having the right light and that's how you help to establish trust, is that they know that you're hearing them. And actually after it was right after all of this really hard stuff that I'm hitting her with, that I said, what's what's really going on? Yeah, why, I said? I because I was she had gone from we were talking baby names to the two days before and all of a sudden she's talking abortion. I knew something must have happened, and it did. Something did happen and and it was really related to Justin very strong fear of childbirth itself. It was just she was terrified of the idea of childbirth and and asking more and more questions about. Well, what was it about childbirth? And as I delve into that, I found out there had been significant childhood trauma. Yeah, I had never known. She in all those months of her with me, I had not known. And and when I knew that, everything made sense so much of the things that had

27:48 happened over those few months. And so then I could directly address that. Yeah, and which I did, and we got onto a discussion of all things, of circumcision of babies, and she started she was adamant. She still talking abortion. Yeah, but she said she would never have a baby circumcise, because how could you cut off a piece of a human being? She said that's child abuse. And then that was the perfect opening to remind her of what happens in an abortion, yeah, of a child that age, where they are literally cutting off the arms and legs and body of that of that baby. And that was the turning point where she then came to the realization of she said, do you think abortion is child abuse? And if, like when you said stupid, it did like started. Are you kidding at that was my first I want to say, are are you kidding it's it's of course, yeah, but she had to reach that realization on her own and that was that was when I could shift into a message that involved God's mercy, yeah, and love and forgiveness, because what she needed

29:22 at that point, and it was clear, was was reassurance. But that comes to then exactly where you've gone of when was the time to give up in me speaking and give God the the time to convict and and this was a point where I was just silent in the discussion and she started talking then about in fact, she said it at that point she said maybe I need to be contacting, maybe I I need, you know, a birthing center, something where it was able. Then how do ideal with the real fear, which is the fear of the actual childbirth? Yeah, and leading us to the next major thing that happened, which was when to call in the rest of the team, which I had all along. There were many people that were interacting with her, but directly addressing the fear of childbirth. I had team members that are trained. We have a high res Dr Edith and and I called her in and at that point and said, hey, could you text her? She she really needs reassurance from someone in the medical field that knows what's going to happen, and all of us need those people in our lives. If we don't have them in our ministry, we need to find them. That those team members that are kind of experts in in areas

30:56 outside of our own. Yeah, expertise that we can call and with that kind of the basis of introducing another voice into the equation can be the relationship that you already have built with someone. Right and again, it can even happen in thirty, forty five minutes with a mom on the sidewalking happen in thirty, forty, five days, I think it's been in this particular conversation with this young lady. But we're out there on the sidewalk and we've built relationship, we've listened, we've identified with their struggles and all that stuff. Of Not just written them off, we not just justified it, we've not written them off and we've done our best to build a relationship with them. Sometimes, if there's another another lady or even a man that's there on the sidewalk with you, you can kind of bring them into the conversation and your situation. Obviously you're going back and forth via text and phone calls with this young lady. Yeah, you brought edith in, brothers. I think you even brought my wife into the conversation early on and get conversation. She trusts you and because she trusts you, she trust the people that you trust.

31:57 Maybe not as much as she trust you. Yeah, but at least you're able to bring those voices in because you built trust with her right and sometimes just speaking from a different perspective, speaking just a different voice. Sometimes changing things up can really help to, I guess, refresh the conversation. That's to have her thinking again about some of the things that you guys have already talked about. And maybe, yeah, and they bring in different points that maybe I can't bring in or didn't bring in. And so, yeah, that I think that fresh, fresh voice has is valuable. But, um, so the come in the full circle and maybe another a slightly just addition to what you said, but a slightly different tact when that question and is asked, which is where I eventually ended up, was reframing and refocusing and maybe kind of deflecting from the question. And I actually ended up saying I don't think that's the question that you necessarily should be asked. And that's a little different from what you said, because you're saying validate, and I totally agree with you. Validate the the feeling behind that question and helping to, you know, to to direct that question into what the real question is.

33:19 Yeah, but and but mine, mine was a little bit different. The tactic that I took in the end was, I feel like the question you should be asking is is not will God forgive me or Will God love me, but is it what I am contemplating doing, what God would have me do. Is it right? Is it good? Is it healthy? Is it loving? Yeah, and and so she she did decide know and she answered no to all to all of those things. And so all of those things all together came brought her to a point where right now she's back on track. I don't know if she'll stay there. She's young. Yeah, and and I think I'm going to have a lot of struggles with her.

34:13 But I did learn a lot through all of this and I was hoping that it would it would help others as well, but it in the end she did again choose life. I think today she is hopefully getting an ultrasound and looking at the baby. But the ongoing discussion with her will always have to be back to the Gospel, sure, and always back to the truth of what God says about about that precious life. Yeah, and about what it means for her to have asked Jesus to be her Lord. And then just pray that she makes the right decision and in and continues to know that even as a believer, especially as a young believer, we will all be tempted.

35:07 There is there is no shame in the temptation, but they're there can be shame and how we respond. Yeah, absoluteation. Yeah, that's good. Well with that. I think we're going to wrap this podcast up. Guys, whoop, it was a blessing to you. We hope that as we've talked through this and kind of just bounce things off of one another and shared our our experiences, that it's encourage you, and do always want to encourage you, guys, to take advantage of the things that we have, of able, like we mentioned in the first of this podcast that we have the sidewalks for life website. We have this article that will be out there in equipping articles on the sidewalks for life, sidewalks on number four, life, notto, calm and please reach out to us, Daniel at Love Life Dot Org, Vicky at Love Life Dot Org, if you have questions, if you have maybe things to add in, maybe you have an experience in this world, maybe you've been doing sidewalk countling for a long time and you can offer some wisdom to us. We don't believe that we have it all together, so please reach out. Let us know what, when information that you have to share with us, and if you've got just some ideas for podcast episodes, we'd love to hear those ideas, but until next time, God bless give me our love for love. Give me our love for gratitude.

36:37 I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some