Will God Still Love Me If I Abort?

WEBVTT100:00:00.560 --> 00:00:06.400I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord,200:00:06.919 --> 00:00:11.470I am yours. I welcome tothe Gospel Center pro life podcast.300:00:11.789 --> 00:00:14.750What do you respond to a younglady that says, well, God still400:00:14.869 --> 00:00:18.550love me if I have the abortion. I'm going to talk about this from500:00:18.550 --> 00:00:28.260a biblical perspective, so stay tuned. I felt show passish, touch your600:00:28.780 --> 00:00:38.850heart. Use Me. Welcome backto the Gospel Center Praer Life podcast.700:00:39.210 --> 00:00:43.369Appreciate you guys listening and we wouldencourage you guys to share this podcast so800:00:43.490 --> 00:00:47.810that it can be a blessing toother people encourage other people also encourage you.900:00:47.850 --> 00:00:52.560As always. Good our sidewalks forlife website sidewalks the number four lifecom.1000:00:53.159 --> 00:00:58.079There's a section there called equipping articlesto help equip you and as always,1100:00:58.119 --> 00:01:03.039are almost always we have a correspondingarticle that goes along with this podcast1200:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.349and we kind of use that asour framework to do this episode of the1300:01:07.430 --> 00:01:11.549Podcast, and we speak out ofexperience when we share these stories. We1400:01:11.670 --> 00:01:18.069share you. We've shared case studiesin times past of situations we've actually encountered1500:01:18.739 --> 00:01:23.420and recently we've been sharing some trainingstuff just to equip you guys. Continue1600:01:23.459 --> 00:01:26.540to train those who who've already beentrained and encourage those who haven't yet been1700:01:26.540 --> 00:01:32.180trained with some of the training stuff. And, as I've mentioned in a1800:01:32.219 --> 00:01:34.489couple of episodes, we have atraining that we do every month, the1900:01:34.569 --> 00:01:38.010first Saturday of every month, fromto pm to four PM, where we2000:01:38.290 --> 00:01:42.689own zoom train folks to do sidewalkout reachs. We take our experiences,2100:01:42.810 --> 00:01:48.959we take what we use locally asour training for our volunteers and we make2200:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.920it available to you. If youwant to get plugged in with that,2300:01:52.079 --> 00:01:53.920you could reach out to me,Daniel at Love Life Dot Org, and2400:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.040I'll get you the necessary form tofill out. I would just need an2500:01:57.040 --> 00:02:01.629application from you with some information aboutyou and get you in the hopper to2600:02:01.829 --> 00:02:05.829attend that. So we encourage youto take advantage of that. We think2700:02:05.870 --> 00:02:09.189it'll be a real blessing to you. And with that this subject that we're2800:02:09.189 --> 00:02:13.509going to be covering, maybe youkind of once we get into it,2900:02:13.550 --> 00:02:16.219you understand what we're talking about here. But the title of the article is3000:02:16.620 --> 00:02:23.699the article that I have right here, written by written by Vicky, and3100:02:23.780 --> 00:02:29.379it says what if they ask,will God still love me if I abort?3200:02:29.620 --> 00:02:32.090Yeah, and so the question wellbe what does anybody ever ask that?3300:02:34.169 --> 00:02:37.530Well, if you're at an abortioncenter any amount of time, you're3400:02:37.530 --> 00:02:42.330going to find maybe not this questionexactly, but some variation of this question.3500:02:42.770 --> 00:02:46.240Lover, forgive God, steel forgiveme. Won't God still forgive me?3600:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.400Sometimes it's not a question, sometimesit's it's a definite statement. Right,3700:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.800God loves me and God will forgiveme. Yeah, and so what3800:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.360do you say in those situations?I know we've talked about forgiveness and how3900:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.229we introduce the subject of forgiveness.Certainly, God is a forgiving God.4000:03:01.389 --> 00:03:07.669God is a god of mercy.We sit here now recording this podcast because4100:03:07.789 --> 00:03:10.990of the mercy and the forgiveness thatGod has brought in our lives. Yep,4200:03:12.900 --> 00:03:15.500we are here now because of thelove of God towards us. God4300:03:15.819 --> 00:03:21.500loves human beings. The evidence ofthat, of course, is the cross4400:03:21.539 --> 00:03:24.340of Jesus Christ, and so wesee the mercy, we see the love4500:03:24.340 --> 00:03:30.530of God. The real issue is, I'll let you share kind of the4600:03:30.610 --> 00:03:32.289foundation of this, let you sharewhere this float out of. But the4700:03:32.610 --> 00:03:38.210real issue is, I think,one of timing and one of wording and4800:03:38.289 --> 00:03:40.840how we word, because we don'twant to word things in such a way.4900:03:40.879 --> 00:03:45.439It's what we talked about, notsharing the message of forgiveness while they're5000:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.599walking into the abortion say right,yelling to a mom that's walking into an5100:03:47.639 --> 00:03:53.599abortion center God will forgive you isalmost, almost one of the worst things5200:03:53.639 --> 00:03:54.909you could possibly say. It is, but that it's one of the few5300:03:55.069 --> 00:04:00.030bad things that you can say thatreally will fuel that abortion. Absolutely yeah,5400:04:00.110 --> 00:04:02.189because what these women are looking fora lot of times are grasping for5500:04:02.710 --> 00:04:08.509a justification to abort their child andwe don't want to give them a justification5600:04:08.710 --> 00:04:12.740to do that. So is ittrue that God's forgiving? Yes, is5700:04:12.780 --> 00:04:15.660it true that God will forgive thosewomen if they have an abortion? Not5800:04:15.899 --> 00:04:21.019necessarily. Actually, biblically speaking,God doesn't forgive. God's not beholding to5900:04:21.019 --> 00:04:26.089human beings. Right. God doesn'thave to forgive anyone for anything. God6000:04:26.129 --> 00:04:30.290choose us to forgive of people basedon repentance of sin and faith in Jesus6100:04:30.329 --> 00:04:34.089Christ. So if you're yelling outGod will forgive you, you're actually not6200:04:34.449 --> 00:04:39.000sharing the whole truth, because it'snot always true that God's going to forgive6300:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.160them. If they don't repent,then they won't be forgiven. If they6400:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.120don't put their trust in Jesus Christ, then there's no basis for forgiveness.6500:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.120Right. So, not to getto death to end depth with the theological6600:04:50.600 --> 00:04:55.550truth of that, but it's atheological truth that we all need to reckon6700:04:55.629 --> 00:04:58.829with its biblical truth. Yeah,because sometimes we can speak out of our6800:04:58.870 --> 00:05:01.870own emotions, in our own excitementor own grief or whatever, and say6900:05:01.949 --> 00:05:05.629some things that are just not helpful. But I want you to share what7000:05:05.790 --> 00:05:11.139this flowed out of while we're talkingabout this subject now and then we'll kind7100:05:11.180 --> 00:05:14.540of break it down biblically, practicallyand all that. So this happened to7200:05:14.579 --> 00:05:16.699me this week. This this wasa question raised to me this week.7300:05:16.740 --> 00:05:19.819This is a young lady that I'vebeen counseling for months. Yeah, I7400:05:19.939 --> 00:05:24.410mean I've got a relationship with hernow. It's been it's been over two7500:05:24.410 --> 00:05:27.689months. I think it's going onthree months now that I've been counseling her.7600:05:27.730 --> 00:05:30.649I know she trusts me. SheI think she loves me. I7700:05:30.810 --> 00:05:34.569love her. She's we have astrong relationship. I've been discipling her.7800:05:34.720 --> 00:05:39.199I've been she came to the Lord. She when she first called me,7900:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.959she was very abortion minded. Butshe chose life, she came to the8000:05:43.160 --> 00:05:51.029Lord and what followed was we basicallyprovided every single need that she raised everything.8100:05:51.069 --> 00:06:00.230Yeah, and I've been tech inher, calling her hours every day8200:06:00.589 --> 00:06:05.100for months and then out of theblue she didn't contact me for a few8300:06:05.139 --> 00:06:11.899days. That's always worrisome, andwhen she finally did, this was what8400:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.459she asked me. So I ofcourse knew what was happening. So she8500:06:15.540 --> 00:06:18.769says, I get specifically abortion,will God still love me? Will God8600:06:18.850 --> 00:06:25.730still love me if I have theabortion? And some and this is immediately8700:06:26.290 --> 00:06:31.250the tension in my mind is okay, on one hand I'm thinking, well,8800:06:32.040 --> 00:06:38.800God will still love her if shehas the abortion and she repents and8900:06:38.879 --> 00:06:44.399turns back to him. Just whatyou said. But I knew what she9000:06:44.639 --> 00:06:49.029was really asking me was, firstof all, will you still love me?9100:06:49.069 --> 00:06:51.990Yeah, if I have the abortion. She did actually say that later.9200:06:54.910 --> 00:06:59.269But secondly, can I go havethis abortion? I want to have9300:06:59.470 --> 00:07:03.180this abortion. Yeah, can youassure me that it's okay? That was9400:07:03.500 --> 00:07:08.540really what she was asking Aspen for. Just she's grasping for justification. So9500:07:08.620 --> 00:07:12.500I'm thinking, okay, I can'tdo that, but on the other hand9600:07:12.660 --> 00:07:16.449this is a young girl and I'mthinking, what if she shuts off all9700:07:16.529 --> 00:07:20.930communication, I never get ahold ofher again. She goes and has the9800:07:21.050 --> 00:07:28.250abortion and then is so filled withthe grief of thinking God will never forgive9900:07:28.370 --> 00:07:32.480her, will never love her again, that she commits suicide or that she10000:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.800lives her life no longer. Itjust in bitterness, hurt, anger against10100:07:38.920 --> 00:07:43.360God and against the world because shefeels she is unforgiven. Right, and10200:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.949I'm thinking in my own mind,I'm here because I had an abortion and10300:07:48.350 --> 00:07:54.269God forgave me. Yeah, howcan I not tell her, yes,10400:07:54.389 --> 00:07:59.459you can be forgiven, there canbe life following abortion, but don't head,10500:07:59.459 --> 00:08:03.339don't kill your baby, don't killthis this precious child. So it10600:08:03.620 --> 00:08:09.300was real for me. This questionin this podcast is very fresh and very10700:08:09.740 --> 00:08:13.810real for me. Yeah, andand so I kind of went through a10800:08:13.889 --> 00:08:18.769whole process of how I solved thatas best I knew how. Yeah,10900:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.170and and that was kind of thearticle. It's based on the progression of11000:08:22.490 --> 00:08:31.560things that went through my head.But the the first thing that went through11100:08:31.639 --> 00:08:37.759my head was I can't answer thatquestion, that there is lose lose.11200:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.669I can't think of any way toanswer that question. And ultimately I came11300:08:43.710 --> 00:08:46.990to the decision that wasn't the question. Yeah, that she should be asking11400:08:48.070 --> 00:08:52.350and that I need. That's whatI needed to say. But so it11500:08:52.509 --> 00:08:54.070was kind of a progression. Ikind of wanted to go through that progression.11600:08:54.149 --> 00:08:58.899I know you'll have you'll have ideasabout every one of these areas,11700:08:58.019 --> 00:09:03.860but one of the things that thatas the discussion progressed, was I was11800:09:03.980 --> 00:09:09.169thinking, this is something that isreally hard to teach. Yeah, there11900:09:09.490 --> 00:09:16.450is an art of counseling, andby that I mean it's not a formula.12000:09:16.490 --> 00:09:20.250Right, it's not a formula.We can't tell you do this and12100:09:20.330 --> 00:09:22.129then, if she says this,say this and then if she says this,12200:09:22.289 --> 00:09:28.720say this. That's net. Thatnever works. Right. There is12300:09:28.759 --> 00:09:33.240an IT. It is it's almostlike a dance in a way, between12400:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.830you and the person you're counseling.They say or make a move and you12500:09:41.990 --> 00:09:46.190are trying to be with them andin sync with them, that you hear12600:09:46.870 --> 00:09:50.509the cry of their heart, notnecessarily the words, sure, and you12700:09:50.669 --> 00:09:58.980respond appropriate, like a dancer,yeah, following his partners or he partner12800:10:00.019 --> 00:10:05.019leading. Yeah, I'll say oneof the components, the I would say12900:10:05.019 --> 00:10:13.769maybe probably the most important component mmof counseling conversation in general is, first13000:10:13.809 --> 00:10:20.009and foremost, listening. Yeah,actually hearing what they're saying and listening in13100:10:20.210 --> 00:10:22.919such a way where you're getting theemotion that they're bringing. Now know,13200:10:24.440 --> 00:10:28.639obviously over the phone or through text, it's pretty difficult in a one on13300:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.240conversation, especially though. We needto be listening, we need to be13400:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.629watching body language, we need tobe reading between the lines, not not13500:10:37.789 --> 00:10:43.269attributing evil motives and ultimate arterior motivesto people and that sort of thing,13600:10:43.309 --> 00:10:46.190but reading between the lines of whetheractually saying so. For example, when13700:10:46.269 --> 00:10:50.940someone says will God still love meif I abhorred? Reading the between the13800:10:52.059 --> 00:10:54.899lines is picking up on the factthat they're looking for some kind of justification13900:10:56.700 --> 00:11:00.820to have the abortion right. They'rereally not asking a question, they're telling14000:11:00.860 --> 00:11:05.049you something that they believe. YEA, and it is important for us if14100:11:05.090 --> 00:11:09.610we're going to give good and godlycounsel. The Bible says we shouldn't stand14200:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.809under the council of the wicked right. The council the wicked brings destruction.14300:11:13.250 --> 00:11:16.889So we're the righteous because of Jesus, and we want to bring righteous counsel.14400:11:18.210 --> 00:11:20.919You going to be listened to whatpeople are saying and then answering the14500:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.000questions in a biblical manner right insteadof just out of our own humanity,14600:11:24.039 --> 00:11:28.639because out of our own humanity andout of her own kind of emotions or14700:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.360whatever, right away we want torespond with we yes, of course God14800:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.029will love you, because we wantedto spell any notion that somehow God might14900:11:35.070 --> 00:11:37.509be a God of judgment, youknow, in our American Christian mindsets.15000:11:37.509 --> 00:11:41.629Right, I want to try todispel any notion that God might actually hate15100:11:41.870 --> 00:11:46.419people or hate things that people do. It's a right away we want respond,15200:11:46.460 --> 00:11:48.899of course you'll love you. Yeah, but that, I might not15300:11:48.980 --> 00:11:54.860actually be the best response, rightbecause really, re reading between the lines,15400:11:56.100 --> 00:11:58.659whe they're saying, of course,listen. I'll just say it right15500:11:58.700 --> 00:12:03.169off. Bad. Of course Godloved me while I was dead in my15600:12:03.289 --> 00:12:07.730trespasses and sins. The Bible saysthat while we were yet, while we15700:12:07.769 --> 00:12:11.649were at sinners, yeah, Romansfive eight, yeah, God demonstrated his15800:12:11.809 --> 00:12:13.929own love toward us. If wedidn't have a love toward us, then15900:12:13.970 --> 00:12:18.080he wouldn't have had anything to demonstrate. Right. So we did have a16000:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.799love toward us in that, whilewe were yet sinners. Christ died for16100:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.559us. So he not just lovedus in his in his eternal heart,16200:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.470but he actually did something to displaythat love. The Cross is that display?16300:12:31.269 --> 00:12:35.230So, yes, God loves sinners, God loves rebels. He loved16400:12:35.309 --> 00:12:39.149me while I was a rebel.Right, he loved you. Why you16500:12:39.230 --> 00:12:43.190are rebel. So yes, that'strue. But in this situation, is16600:12:43.230 --> 00:12:48.019it really the best thing to say, given what we know, that she's16700:12:48.019 --> 00:12:52.019digging for? She's digging for justificationright to board her child? Right?16800:12:52.659 --> 00:12:56.460I don't think that it is.Yeah, yeah, and I didn't think16900:12:56.460 --> 00:13:00.330so either, and so I knewI could not answer that question. So17000:13:00.490 --> 00:13:03.649there's I love what you said.You have to listen first and asking other17100:13:03.690 --> 00:13:09.970question, asking questions and as you'relistening, helping to lead them, hopefully,17200:13:09.169 --> 00:13:15.320to the true heart issue. Yeah, which is really should I have17300:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.039this abortion? That's what she's saying. Is it okay to have this abortion?17400:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.519Yeah, I think in listening inthat particular conversation, one of the17500:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.600questions I would ask, and againI'm not asking in some accusing way.17600:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.830I think we have to be carefulin the way that we come across that17700:13:28.870 --> 00:13:31.950we're not asking in some accusing way, right, because we can shut the17800:13:31.029 --> 00:13:37.029conversation down immediately. But if sheasked me this question, God still love17900:13:37.070 --> 00:13:39.149me if I aboord? I'll ask. Okay, can you? Can you18000:13:39.190 --> 00:13:43.460explain to me exactly why you're askingthat question, exactly what I did.18100:13:43.539 --> 00:13:46.299We are INSTINC here, Daniel,that did it. I said, what18200:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.580are you saying? Well, whatare you saying and that, and then18300:13:50.700 --> 00:13:54.139she was very open. She saidI want to, I'm going to go18400:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.570aboard the Child. Shouldn't and wasn'ta question. Then it is. I'm18500:13:58.690 --> 00:14:01.330going to go aboard my baby.Yeah, that was what she said.18600:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.529You know, one of the thingsthat I would say in that particular conversation,18700:14:05.210 --> 00:14:09.480because I like to I like totake people's again, not in some18800:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.080like manipulative way or whatever it,take the thoughts that they're thinking, the18900:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.600things they put out there and kindof turn it back on them as a19000:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.840mirror. I think that's biblical.Yeah, is the word of God is19100:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.309a mirror to us. Speaks ofthat in James Chapter two. I think19200:14:24.389 --> 00:14:28.629that the law of God is amirror. And so if she's asking me,19300:14:28.909 --> 00:14:33.230well, God still love me ifI abort this child, I'll ask19400:14:33.309 --> 00:14:37.509her, well, Does God loveyou now? And most people will say19500:14:37.509 --> 00:14:41.460yes. This is kind of myfull proof pro life argument, right.19600:14:41.700 --> 00:14:46.019Is God's God love you? Yes, and then ask the question. Okay,19700:14:46.100 --> 00:14:50.899when did God begin to love you? Was it five minutes ago,19800:14:52.059 --> 00:14:54.330was it five years ago? Wasit when you were born? Or did19900:14:54.409 --> 00:14:58.809God love you even before you wereborn? And biblically, and I think20000:14:58.850 --> 00:15:01.889we want to lead them to thepoint where they understand that God loved them20100:15:01.929 --> 00:15:07.720before they're even born and established thatas a biblical truth, because it is.20200:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.519Yeah, and then take it alittle step further and say, well,20300:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.279if God loved you before you wereborn, he loves you now.20400:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.960Doesn't he also love your baby?So then, are you using the love20500:15:20.000 --> 00:15:26.350of God as justification to kill anotherperson that God also loves? That,20600:15:26.549 --> 00:15:28.830to me, is the question needsto be put out there. Yeah,20700:15:28.830 --> 00:15:31.909and that's really, really good wayof phrasing it. Yeah, she had.20800:15:33.149 --> 00:15:35.220I had had, because I've beentrained by the best. I had20900:15:35.299 --> 00:15:41.980already had the discussion with her previouslyover those months about your fail safe pro21000:15:41.100 --> 00:15:45.340life argument, and it definitely wasvery convincing to her. Yeah, so21100:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.100she had heard that. She hadalready heard that. I did not question21200:15:48.179 --> 00:15:52.970it in the way that you sayit again, because I think what you21300:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.970said at the end there, theway you phrase that, was really good.21400:15:56.009 --> 00:15:58.450Yeah, just asking the question.Are you using the love of God21500:15:58.610 --> 00:16:04.480for you to justify you taking thelife of someone who God also loves?21600:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.399Right, yeah, and in essence, what you're trying to bring before them21700:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.279is you are you trying to areyou trying to say that God somehow loves21800:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.480you more than he loves your baby? Right, even though he loved you21900:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.429and new you all you're in yourmother's womb. He loves and knows your22000:16:18.470 --> 00:16:22.429baby, but you're trying to usethat love that he has for using it22100:16:22.629 --> 00:16:26.429as a justification to kill your child. Yeah, yeah, so you're putting22200:16:26.470 --> 00:16:30.830it back in her court also.Then, instead of answering the question,22300:16:30.750 --> 00:16:36.539you're actually asking another question. Right, that in dress one who think I22400:16:36.740 --> 00:16:40.139can't thought. Right. Yeah,want to, yea provoke thought, and22500:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.220you want to bring in the componentthat I think it's very important in any22600:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.009of these situations is conviction. Likeyou want them to feel the conviction.22700:16:48.049 --> 00:16:51.850A lot of times, getting peopleto repeat the things that they said.22800:16:51.889 --> 00:16:55.769Yeah, things that, to yourears, are like doesn't she see how22900:16:55.929 --> 00:16:57.730stupid that sounded. I don't know, I'll just say for me, I23000:16:57.769 --> 00:17:00.799don't know. I've said things thatare just really stupid in my wife repeats23100:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.319it back to him like yeah,that was pretty pretty stupid. Right.23200:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.400Sometimes it takes us repeating something back, or maybe he's rewarding it and say23300:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.079are you saying this then? So, are you saying them because God loves23400:17:14.079 --> 00:17:18.869you and even though he does loveyour baby, that somehow he loves you23500:17:18.109 --> 00:17:22.150more than your baby? Yeah,and what are you basing that on?23600:17:22.670 --> 00:17:25.990You know? So saying it backand and maybe getting them to repeat it23700:17:26.069 --> 00:17:30.259back sometimes can be a little convicting, because think to your next point as23800:17:30.339 --> 00:17:33.819we want to trust in the powerof the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and23900:17:33.019 --> 00:17:37.859exactly. The conviction does not comefrom us, right, comes from the24000:17:37.940 --> 00:17:44.490Holy Spirit. So it's got aand and so Jesus fought Satan through scripture.24100:17:44.490 --> 00:17:48.170Yeah, so bringing in that,that scriptural conviction, yeah, absolute24200:17:48.170 --> 00:17:53.049less critical and giving the Holy Spiritspace right to do his work. I24300:17:53.210 --> 00:17:57.210know in conversations, in one onone conversations with MOMS and dad's on the24400:17:57.250 --> 00:18:00.799sidewalk, we can kind of getbecause it is a life and death scenario.24500:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.960We can kind of get really excitedand we can kind of get into24600:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.400situation where we're just saying our peaceand we're trying to get all the information24700:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.359out there that we can, butwe do need to give space to listen24800:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.750to them and then give space tothe Holy Spirit to do his work right,24900:18:15.869 --> 00:18:18.470to drop, you know, Ilike to drop some truth bombs and25000:18:18.589 --> 00:18:21.670just let him stew on it fora couple of seconds rather than me just25100:18:21.750 --> 00:18:23.869trying to jump in and throw another, another truth bomb in there. Right,25200:18:23.910 --> 00:18:27.140you got to give people time toprocess things, to think about it,25300:18:27.380 --> 00:18:32.019to repeat what was just said,to stew on it in their minds,25400:18:32.660 --> 00:18:34.700and then again, the Holy Spiritcan do his work, because we25500:18:34.779 --> 00:18:38.059can do all that we want,we can throw out all kinds of scriptures,25600:18:38.339 --> 00:18:41.809we can throw out all kinds ofideas and try to do as best25700:18:41.849 --> 00:18:48.009we can to convict someone make themfeel guilty, but in reality it's the25800:18:48.089 --> 00:18:52.289Holy Spirit that's if anyone's ever goingto do that in a productive way,25900:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.559bring conviction and make people feel guilty, which, by the way, the26000:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.240Holy Spirit does do that. TheHoly Spirit does make people feel guilty.26100:19:00.319 --> 00:19:06.160This whole notion that God is nota god of guilt. God does alleviate26200:19:06.359 --> 00:19:11.990guilt if we turn to him,but he uses guilt to bring conviction so26300:19:11.150 --> 00:19:15.029that people will repent. Right.So guilt in this scenario is a good26400:19:15.150 --> 00:19:19.029thing. This young lady needs tofeel the Gilt of her rebellion, yeah,26500:19:19.190 --> 00:19:23.109of her consideration of aborting a childthat God loves. It's made in26600:19:23.190 --> 00:19:26.859his image. So we need togive space again for the Holy Spirit to26700:19:26.019 --> 00:19:30.339bring guilt, yeah, to bringconviction. Yeah, so the ultimately they26800:19:30.339 --> 00:19:33.500can be led to repentance. Yeah. So let relying on the Holy Spirit.26900:19:33.619 --> 00:19:38.529And then I knew, and that'spart of where I think you're also27000:19:38.690 --> 00:19:44.210heading, is, is I knewthat she needed to be confronted with some27100:19:44.450 --> 00:19:49.049really hard questions. Absolutely, andthe only way that I felt that I27200:19:49.289 --> 00:19:56.039could do that is because of mynext kind of big point. I had27300:19:56.119 --> 00:20:03.039a relationship with her, and noteveryone can have months to develop a relationship27400:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.869with an abortion minded mom, butuse whatever time you have to develop a27500:20:08.029 --> 00:20:12.710relationship. Yeah, however shallow arelationship or quick a relationship it might be,27600:20:14.069 --> 00:20:18.549but where you're establishing trust. Andso, knowing that, knowing that27700:20:18.589 --> 00:20:23.460the power of conviction comes from theHoly Spirit, I knew I needed to27800:20:23.700 --> 00:20:30.140hit her with some really hard truths. YEA, and key to that is27900:20:30.259 --> 00:20:34.180when. When is the best timing? Early on and developing the relationship with28000:20:34.339 --> 00:20:41.849her, that was not the timeto be describing an excruciating detail an abortion.28100:20:41.890 --> 00:20:47.609Yeah, but now, with aadvanced pregnancy, she needed it to28200:20:47.690 --> 00:20:51.200know, she needed to know whatwas going to happen, yeah, to28300:20:51.319 --> 00:20:57.759that child. And and so youcan't bring the I think you have to.28400:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.079Again, it's part of the artof counseling. But I don't think28500:21:02.119 --> 00:21:07.230you can introduce those super, superhard truth right away or they'll just turn28600:21:07.309 --> 00:21:10.589off though, hang up the phone, they'll walk away, they'll walk into28700:21:10.589 --> 00:21:15.750the abortion center. So I dothink those those truths have to come after28800:21:15.230 --> 00:21:22.859you've prayed, after the Holy Spirithas entered in some degree and has started28900:21:22.980 --> 00:21:26.579that feeling of guilt and conviction withinthem, and after there is at least29000:21:26.619 --> 00:21:32.930some element of trust with you,that that you can say something and they're29100:21:32.930 --> 00:21:37.210not just going to run away.Throughout the the next segment of that discussion29200:21:37.250 --> 00:21:41.009with her, I thought, Imean I was desperate. I was feeling29300:21:41.170 --> 00:21:45.490desperate because she was still saying I'mgoing to I'm going to kill this baby.29400:21:45.569 --> 00:21:47.920There's I love you, Vicky,but there's nothing you can say.29500:21:47.960 --> 00:21:52.960At one point I said I havenothing left to say, I've said all29600:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.200I know to say to you,and she said there is nothing you can29700:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.079say. Yeah, and I thinkthat was the point in which I went29800:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.069to you, Daniel, and saidI don't know what to do, and29900:22:02.190 --> 00:22:06.269you basically said you do nothing.You know, you've kind of said it30000:22:06.390 --> 00:22:11.549all. It might be time tojust wait and and let the Holy Spirit30100:22:11.230 --> 00:22:15.940convict, which I did for oneevening, and that was about as long30200:22:15.980 --> 00:22:19.700as I could stand not saying anythingthat next morning because I was afraid that30300:22:19.900 --> 00:22:22.740was the morning she was going toabort. Yeah, and I don't know30400:22:22.819 --> 00:22:30.849why I thought that, but II then just really I laid it on30500:22:32.009 --> 00:22:37.250pretty thick. I described in detailwhat happens, what a baby the bit30600:22:37.369 --> 00:22:41.130the age of her baby would begoing through. Yeah, I sent her30700:22:41.769 --> 00:22:48.400multiple videos of babies the age ofher baby. Sure in you to row30800:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.920the actual videos of actual babies.I sent her a video of an abortion.30900:22:52.960 --> 00:23:04.950Yeah, and and then there wassilence and and I asked her if31000:23:06.069 --> 00:23:08.509she watched any of them and shesaid no, I can't. Yeah,31100:23:08.549 --> 00:23:15.460and then I said, you can'twatch them because you know that if you31200:23:15.619 --> 00:23:19.940do, it will convict you,you of the truth, of God's truth,31300:23:21.579 --> 00:23:25.740that this is a little person inyour boom and that you're thinking of31400:23:25.900 --> 00:23:32.609doing something really unspeakable. Yeah,I want to mention here you're talking about31500:23:32.730 --> 00:23:37.049kind of a more in depth andat length conversation that you've had with a31600:23:37.130 --> 00:23:40.130young lady. Yeah, and there'sscenarias in which were able to do that.31700:23:40.410 --> 00:23:42.160Yeah, at an abortion center,in front of the abortion center,31800:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.799in a sidewall caunseling scenario. We'renot always is able to write, but31900:23:45.960 --> 00:23:51.440there's still this this kind of progressionof things is still possible, and I32000:23:51.559 --> 00:23:56.349do feel like this, I guess, progression of things is important. YEA,32100:23:56.430 --> 00:23:59.950that we're not coming out right offthe bat with the hard hitting stuff,32200:24:00.109 --> 00:24:03.430right, the violence that abortion brings. Yeah, because what we want32300:24:03.470 --> 00:24:07.789to do, like you mentioned,and it's kind of like a micro causm,32400:24:07.910 --> 00:24:11.539I guess, of what you're dealingwith on the sidewalk in a maybe32500:24:11.660 --> 00:24:15.380thirty, forty five minute conversation isbuild a relationship, and you build a32600:24:15.420 --> 00:24:21.180relationship with some money and you canbuild a relationship with somebody in ten or32700:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.490fifteen minutes now. It's not goingto be obviously a very deep relationship.32800:24:25.130 --> 00:24:29.130It's not going to have all theyou know, all the benefits of an32900:24:29.250 --> 00:24:33.890indepth, lengthy relationship. Yeah,but you can build a relationship and one33000:24:33.930 --> 00:24:37.289of the ways you do that isby, like they say, and it's33100:24:37.329 --> 00:24:41.559maybe Cliche, but people don't carehow much you know until they know how33200:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.960much you care. Right, showingthem that you care, showing them that33300:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.440you're concerned about the things that aregoing on on your in their life,33400:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.230not just writing off. Listen,we know, we all agree, everybody33500:24:53.269 --> 00:24:56.789who's listening to this podcast agrees withthis. If you don't, then you33600:24:56.829 --> 00:25:03.470can stop listening to this podcast,that there is no justification to kill a33700:25:03.589 --> 00:25:08.420baby. There's no justification for abortion, absolutely no justification for it. That33800:25:08.619 --> 00:25:14.500being said, though, we shouldnot just immediately right off the justifications these33900:25:14.660 --> 00:25:18.099people are using, because if youwant to tear down the relationship, then34000:25:18.180 --> 00:25:22.250do that. Then right off people'sconcerns. You know, husband and wife34100:25:22.250 --> 00:25:26.210relationship. Listen husband's if you wantto really ruin your relationship with your wife34200:25:26.210 --> 00:25:29.410and you want a fast track todo that, then right off her concerns.34300:25:29.450 --> 00:25:30.849Yeah, say what, they don'tmatter. Listen, look at this,34400:25:32.009 --> 00:25:33.009look at that. You know,do the same thing wives, if34500:25:33.009 --> 00:25:37.599you want to just ruin your relationshipwith your husband, and hopefully you guys34600:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.359will take the opposite of ice here. Right, right. Yeah, yeah,34700:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.680need to take people's concerned seriously,even though sometimes they're stupid concerns.34800:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.549They're not justifiable concerns, at leastin their minds they are for a season.34900:25:49.789 --> 00:25:53.430So we need to listen to thoseconcerns. We need to let them35000:25:53.509 --> 00:25:56.430know that we care about those concerns. Yeah, and listen. I think35100:25:56.549 --> 00:26:00.509God cares about those concerns. Nowhe just because God cares about the concerns35200:26:00.549 --> 00:26:06.299that people have doesn't mean he justifiesthe behavior that they want to use in35300:26:06.380 --> 00:26:11.339the light of those concerns. Right. So being concerned, helping people to35400:26:11.380 --> 00:26:15.099see that you're concerned, is notagreement that their concern is a valid one.35500:26:15.420 --> 00:26:18.490Yeah, but it's at least listening, because you cannot have a relationship35600:26:18.529 --> 00:26:26.890with another person if there isn't conversation, and conversation includes you talking and you35700:26:26.049 --> 00:26:30.009listening. They talk and they listen, right, and that's the foundation of35800:26:30.089 --> 00:26:33.279this relationship. On the sidewalks thefoundation that relationship. You're having the right35900:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.119light and that's how you help toestablish trust, is that they know that36000:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.920you're hearing them. And actually afterit was right after all of this really36100:26:41.119 --> 00:26:48.430hard stuff that I'm hitting her with, that I said, what's what's really36200:26:48.549 --> 00:26:52.869going on? Yeah, why,I said? I because I was she36300:26:52.029 --> 00:26:56.630had gone from we were talking babynames to the two days before and all36400:26:56.750 --> 00:27:02.460of a sudden she's talking abortion.I knew something must have happened, and36500:27:03.019 --> 00:27:10.940it did. Something did happen andand it was really related to Justin very36600:27:11.420 --> 00:27:18.329strong fear of childbirth itself. Itwas just she was terrified of the idea36700:27:18.369 --> 00:27:23.450of childbirth and and asking more andmore questions about. Well, what was36800:27:23.529 --> 00:27:30.079it about childbirth? And as Idelve into that, I found out there36900:27:30.160 --> 00:27:37.039had been significant childhood trauma. Yeah, I had never known. She in37000:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.680all those months of her with me, I had not known. And and37100:27:42.119 --> 00:27:48.230when I knew that, everything madesense so much of the things that had37200:27:48.309 --> 00:27:53.109happened over those few months. Andso then I could directly address that.37300:27:53.670 --> 00:27:57.509Yeah, and which I did,and we got onto a discussion of all37400:27:57.619 --> 00:28:04.220things, of circumcision of babies,and she started she was adamant. She37500:28:04.420 --> 00:28:10.339still talking abortion. Yeah, butshe said she would never have a baby37600:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.289circumcise, because how could you cutoff a piece of a human being?37700:28:15.529 --> 00:28:23.130She said that's child abuse. Andthen that was the perfect opening to remind37800:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.720her of what happens in an abortion, yeah, of a child that age,37900:28:27.759 --> 00:28:36.400where they are literally cutting off thearms and legs and body of that38000:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.990of that baby. And that wasthe turning point where she then came to38100:28:42.150 --> 00:28:51.509the realization of she said, doyou think abortion is child abuse? And38200:28:51.710 --> 00:28:55.390if, like when you said stupid, it did like started. Are you38300:28:55.470 --> 00:28:57.500kidding at that was my first Iwant to say, are are you kidding38400:28:59.900 --> 00:29:06.339it's it's of course, yeah,but she had to reach that realization on38500:29:06.539 --> 00:29:15.769her own and that was that waswhen I could shift into a message that38600:29:17.450 --> 00:29:22.569involved God's mercy, yeah, andlove and forgiveness, because what she needed38700:29:22.609 --> 00:29:27.799at that point, and it wasclear, was was reassurance. But that38800:29:29.079 --> 00:29:34.440comes to then exactly where you've goneof when was the time to give up38900:29:36.519 --> 00:29:42.470in me speaking and give God thethe time to convict and and this was39000:29:42.549 --> 00:29:49.150a point where I was just silentin the discussion and she started talking then39100:29:49.950 --> 00:29:55.380about in fact, she said itat that point she said maybe I need39200:29:55.420 --> 00:30:00.940to be contacting, maybe I Ineed, you know, a birthing center,39300:30:00.140 --> 00:30:06.339something where it was able. Thenhow do ideal with the real fear,39400:30:06.819 --> 00:30:11.650which is the fear of the actualchildbirth? Yeah, and leading us39500:30:11.690 --> 00:30:15.049to the next major thing that happened, which was when to call in the39600:30:15.170 --> 00:30:18.450rest of the team, which Ihad all along. There were many people39700:30:19.210 --> 00:30:25.279that were interacting with her, butdirectly addressing the fear of childbirth. I39800:30:25.400 --> 00:30:30.680had team members that are trained.We have a high res Dr Edith and39900:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.599and I called her in and atthat point and said, hey, could40000:30:34.599 --> 00:30:40.750you text her? She she reallyneeds reassurance from someone in the medical field40100:30:40.750 --> 00:30:48.670that knows what's going to happen,and all of us need those people in40200:30:48.789 --> 00:30:51.299our lives. If we don't havethem in our ministry, we need to40300:30:51.380 --> 00:30:56.539find them. That those team membersthat are kind of experts in in areas40400:30:56.579 --> 00:31:00.339outside of our own. Yeah,expertise that we can call and with that40500:31:02.299 --> 00:31:07.569kind of the basis of introducing anothervoice into the equation can be the relationship40600:31:07.609 --> 00:31:10.849that you already have built with someone. Right and again, it can even40700:31:11.049 --> 00:31:14.849happen in thirty, forty five minuteswith a mom on the sidewalking happen in40800:31:15.529 --> 00:31:18.359thirty, forty, five days,I think it's been in this particular conversation40900:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.839with this young lady. But we'reout there on the sidewalk and we've built41000:31:22.880 --> 00:31:27.000relationship, we've listened, we've identifiedwith their struggles and all that stuff.41100:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.200Of Not just written them off,we not just justified it, we've not41200:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.230written them off and we've done ourbest to build a relationship with them.41300:31:33.990 --> 00:31:38.789Sometimes, if there's another another ladyor even a man that's there on the41400:31:38.829 --> 00:31:42.390sidewalk with you, you can kindof bring them into the conversation and your41500:31:42.430 --> 00:31:47.940situation. Obviously you're going back andforth via text and phone calls with this41600:31:48.059 --> 00:31:49.660young lady. Yeah, you broughtedith in, brothers. I think you41700:31:49.700 --> 00:31:53.859even brought my wife into the conversationearly on and get conversation. She trusts41800:31:53.900 --> 00:31:57.220you and because she trusts you,she trust the people that you trust.41900:31:57.339 --> 00:32:00.819Maybe not as much as she trustyou. Yeah, but at least you're42000:32:00.819 --> 00:32:05.970able to bring those voices in becauseyou built trust with her right and sometimes42100:32:06.569 --> 00:32:12.089just speaking from a different perspective,speaking just a different voice. Sometimes changing42200:32:12.210 --> 00:32:16.559things up can really help to,I guess, refresh the conversation. That's42300:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.519to have her thinking again about someof the things that you guys have already42400:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.279talked about. And maybe, yeah, and they bring in different points that42500:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.440maybe I can't bring in or didn'tbring in. And so, yeah,42600:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.430that I think that fresh, freshvoice has is valuable. But, um,42700:32:31.109 --> 00:32:36.950so the come in the full circleand maybe another a slightly just addition42800:32:37.109 --> 00:32:39.349to what you said, but aslightly different tact when that question and is42900:32:39.470 --> 00:32:49.019asked, which is where I eventuallyended up, was reframing and refocusing and43000:32:49.299 --> 00:32:57.940maybe kind of deflecting from the question. And I actually ended up saying I43100:32:58.180 --> 00:33:05.369don't think that's the question that younecessarily should be asked. And that's a43200:33:05.410 --> 00:33:07.809little different from what you said,because you're saying validate, and I totally43300:33:07.849 --> 00:33:13.960agree with you. Validate the thefeeling behind that question and helping to,43400:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.319you know, to to direct thatquestion into what the real question is.43500:33:19.599 --> 00:33:22.079Yeah, but and but mine,mine was a little bit different. The43600:33:22.279 --> 00:33:28.829tactic that I took in the endwas, I feel like the question you43700:33:28.990 --> 00:33:35.430should be asking is is not willGod forgive me or Will God love me,43800:33:36.150 --> 00:33:40.230but is it what I am contemplatingdoing, what God would have me43900:33:40.390 --> 00:33:45.339do. Is it right? Isit good? Is it healthy? Is44000:33:45.420 --> 00:33:52.420it loving? Yeah, and andso she she did decide know and she44100:33:52.539 --> 00:33:59.650answered no to all to all ofthose things. And so all of those44200:33:59.690 --> 00:34:02.730things all together came brought her toa point where right now she's back on44300:34:02.890 --> 00:34:07.049track. I don't know if she'llstay there. She's young. Yeah,44400:34:07.170 --> 00:34:12.400and and I think I'm going tohave a lot of struggles with her.44500:34:13.440 --> 00:34:17.400But I did learn a lot throughall of this and I was hoping that44600:34:17.599 --> 00:34:27.070it would it would help others aswell, but it in the end she44700:34:27.670 --> 00:34:31.909did again choose life. I thinktoday she is hopefully getting an ultrasound and44800:34:31.989 --> 00:34:39.579looking at the baby. But theongoing discussion with her will always have to44900:34:39.659 --> 00:34:44.219be back to the Gospel, sure, and always back to the truth of45000:34:44.420 --> 00:34:49.219what God says about about that preciouslife. Yeah, and about what it45100:34:49.340 --> 00:34:53.690means for her to have asked Jesusto be her Lord. And then just45200:34:53.969 --> 00:35:02.170pray that she makes the right decisionand in and continues to know that even45300:35:02.210 --> 00:35:07.559as a believer, especially as ayoung believer, we will all be tempted.45400:35:07.320 --> 00:35:14.320There is there is no shame inthe temptation, but they're there can45500:35:14.360 --> 00:35:20.320be shame and how we respond.Yeah, absoluteation. Yeah, that's good.45600:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.510Well with that. I think we'regoing to wrap this podcast up.45700:35:22.550 --> 00:35:25.869Guys, whoop, it was ablessing to you. We hope that as45800:35:25.989 --> 00:35:30.469we've talked through this and kind ofjust bounce things off of one another and45900:35:30.590 --> 00:35:35.739shared our our experiences, that it'sencourage you, and do always want to46000:35:35.780 --> 00:35:37.900encourage you, guys, to takeadvantage of the things that we have,46100:35:37.980 --> 00:35:42.099of able, like we mentioned inthe first of this podcast that we have46200:35:42.179 --> 00:35:45.099the sidewalks for life website. Wehave this article that will be out there46300:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.539in equipping articles on the sidewalks forlife, sidewalks on number four, life,46400:35:49.860 --> 00:35:54.329notto, calm and please reach outto us, Daniel at Love Life46500:35:54.369 --> 00:35:58.050Dot Org, Vicky at Love LifeDot Org, if you have questions,46600:35:58.570 --> 00:36:00.849if you have maybe things to addin, maybe you have an experience in46700:36:00.929 --> 00:36:04.719this world, maybe you've been doingsidewalk countling for a long time and you46800:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.400can offer some wisdom to us.We don't believe that we have it all46900:36:07.480 --> 00:36:10.800together, so please reach out.Let us know what, when information that47000:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.840you have to share with us,and if you've got just some ideas for47100:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.989podcast episodes, we'd love to hearthose ideas, but until next time,47200:36:21.349 --> 00:36:34.780God bless give me our love forlove. Give me our love for gratitude.47300:36:37.860 --> 00:36:45.659I know it will cost me mylife. Nothing's too precious in some47400:36:46.570 --> you