Why is Talking About Abortion Taboo in the Church?

WEBVTT100:00:00.560 --> 00:00:05.759I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, s and me,200:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.310Lord, I am your. Welcometo the Gospel Center pro life podcast.300:00:10.550 --> 00:00:13.669This episode we're going to talk aboutwhy it's taboo to talk about abortion400:00:13.789 --> 00:00:17.390in the church and some of thereasons that pastors give to not talk about500:00:17.390 --> 00:00:28.260it to their congregations. Stick withus. I felt show passish touch your600:00:30.660 --> 00:00:35.179welcome to the Gospel Center pro lifepodcast. We're going to talk about abortion,700:00:35.619 --> 00:00:39.890like we can do. PODCAST isabout that, pro life issues in800:00:39.929 --> 00:00:42.810light of the Gospel. But oneof the things we're going to talk about,900:00:43.009 --> 00:00:47.009and I think hopefully this will behelpful for some pastors and for people1000:00:47.090 --> 00:00:51.119in congregations where your pastor maybe isnot addressing the issue of abortion, or1100:00:51.159 --> 00:00:53.679maybe he's not addressing the issue ofabortion as much as he ought to,1200:00:54.560 --> 00:00:59.240and we're going to talk about whythe issue of abortion is taboo in the1300:00:59.359 --> 00:01:04.310church, for some churches and evenin Christian circles, and why pastors shy1400:01:04.349 --> 00:01:08.349away from talking about the issue ofabortion. You've got an article there that1500:01:08.510 --> 00:01:11.590you that you got five reasons.Why? What is it? Was it1600:01:11.670 --> 00:01:14.750entire right? Well, I havea couple of articles. This one is1700:01:14.870 --> 00:01:19.420called the most common reasons pastors givefor not preaching about abortion. That's the1800:01:19.579 --> 00:01:21.819title in it. It was writtenby a pastor and I'm sorry, I1900:01:21.900 --> 00:01:25.540don't have its name. We canfind it and post that with with our2000:01:26.299 --> 00:01:32.260with our podcast. Okay, butat list like twenty reasons, common reasons2100:01:32.340 --> 00:01:37.090why pastors don't talk about abortion,and and so maybe we could just go2200:01:37.250 --> 00:01:38.209through them. Yeah, some ofthe B's. The other one you have2300:01:38.329 --> 00:01:41.969from focus on the family. Theone from focus on the family is the2400:01:42.170 --> 00:01:47.680five fears that keep pastors from preachingabout abortion. Okay, and then it's2500:01:47.760 --> 00:01:49.000like a lot of these. Iwas reading through those, both of those2600:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.959articles. They had a lot ofsimilarities. Right, right, why don't2700:01:53.959 --> 00:01:56.680we start with that first, withthe focus on the family, one of2800:01:56.719 --> 00:02:00.400the five fears, okay, thatkeep pastors and you know, of course2900:02:00.439 --> 00:02:04.790we want to look at these thingsin light of the Scripture and lighted with3000:02:04.829 --> 00:02:08.310the Bible says and the but thebiblical command right to speak for those that3100:02:08.389 --> 00:02:13.229can speak for themselves and to loveour neighbor as ourselves. And of course3200:02:13.310 --> 00:02:15.620we're going to come from a perspectiveof when we think about prolife ministry,3300:02:15.620 --> 00:02:21.900we're thinking sidewall counseling. But there'scertainly a broad application. And you know,3400:02:22.020 --> 00:02:25.340pastors, and I believe every everychurch that is a church, those3500:02:25.379 --> 00:02:29.180who believe that word of God andthose who believe Jesus is the way of3600:02:29.219 --> 00:02:32.009salvation and the God has try you, and there's just sort of the fundamentals3700:02:34.289 --> 00:02:38.849should be talking about the issue ofabortion, for sure. And but fact3800:02:38.009 --> 00:02:42.569is they're not. You know.Yeah, and so they're not an end.3900:02:42.650 --> 00:02:47.159My experience in talking with pastors isthat they may be willing to support4000:02:47.960 --> 00:02:53.479something like a pregnancy resource center,yeah, as a church, but less4100:02:53.680 --> 00:02:58.789willing to support art people out onthe front lines in a sidewalk. Yeah,4200:02:58.870 --> 00:03:05.909ministry. And my personal conviction isthat churches should be out on the4300:03:05.990 --> 00:03:09.629sidewalk and should be supporting what's happeningout on the sidewalk as well. Yes,4400:03:09.750 --> 00:03:15.139the pregnancy resource yeah, absolutely so. So, anyway, in the4500:03:15.180 --> 00:03:17.780in the top five focus on thefamily. I presumed it some sort of4600:03:17.860 --> 00:03:23.379research and found the the top fivereasons given for why pastors are not talking4700:03:23.460 --> 00:03:29.009about abortion. So the first oneis, and I hear this all the4800:03:29.090 --> 00:03:35.530time, my congregation will think I'mbeing political, congregational think I'm being political.4900:03:35.650 --> 00:03:38.889Isis like, you know, oneof the things I've said two folks5000:03:39.090 --> 00:03:43.280when they come out on the sidewalkand they wonder where the church is and5100:03:43.479 --> 00:03:47.360why they're pastor isn't addressing the issueof abortion, is that the church has5200:03:47.759 --> 00:03:53.879taken the bait of the devil insome ways in that we've allowed abortion to5300:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.349be crafted and to be put forthas a political issue, and the fact5400:03:58.430 --> 00:04:01.550is it's not a political issue,it's a gospel issue. Now there's some5500:04:01.629 --> 00:04:04.830politics involved and you know, peoplethink about especially, you know, we're5600:04:04.870 --> 00:04:09.629dealing with the black churches. Youwonder why aren't the Black Churches out here?5700:04:09.669 --> 00:04:12.780I say, I tell people,I said because this issue is viewed5800:04:12.819 --> 00:04:15.379as a Democrat Republican issue. Andyou know it's face it. Most black5900:04:15.459 --> 00:04:19.699churches, the majority of the peoplethere are Democrats, you know, and6000:04:19.860 --> 00:04:25.490they would actually more aligned with,you know, our beliefs as far as6100:04:25.529 --> 00:04:28.410the Bible be in the word ofGod, and you know, homosexuality being6200:04:28.410 --> 00:04:32.209seeing abortion being wrong. And yetthey've they've allowed in the church at Laura's6300:04:32.290 --> 00:04:36.329has allowed this issue to be deemedas a political issue and it's simply not6400:04:36.490 --> 00:04:40.319a political issue. Yeah, yougot to wonder about that, because at6500:04:40.360 --> 00:04:46.160the root of the pro life issueis the value, worth dignity of human6600:04:46.519 --> 00:04:54.149life and that that was established inthe beginning by God. Yeah, when6700:04:54.350 --> 00:04:58.870he says that we are created inhis image. Yeah, and our value6800:04:58.990 --> 00:05:06.339is derived from that. And allrights proceed from the right to life.6900:05:06.540 --> 00:05:10.980You can't have any other right ifyou don't have the right to life.7000:05:11.620 --> 00:05:16.500So why that is perceived as apolitical issue, you know? Well,7100:05:16.579 --> 00:05:23.370there's a great division in our country. yeahlitically because of Rov Wade. Yeah,7200:05:23.449 --> 00:05:28.529and the aftermath of Rope Wade.And Pastors, I think, are7300:05:28.649 --> 00:05:33.689looking at at least what what thisarticle seem to suggest was that they are7400:05:33.810 --> 00:05:41.319looking only at the political outworking ofof the abortion issue, but not at7500:05:41.360 --> 00:05:46.800the root of the abortion issue.To great detriment. They're not talking about7600:05:46.800 --> 00:05:49.470it. There is this warms theheart of God, for I agree pastors.7700:05:50.310 --> 00:05:56.350I was a pastor one time forabout almost ten years and I know7800:05:56.470 --> 00:06:00.110the heart of a pastor. Hewants to shepherd, he wants to protect7900:06:00.310 --> 00:06:04.620those who got has put under hiscare, but part of protecting is addressing8000:06:05.220 --> 00:06:10.459these issues that are destructive and youknow, it can kind of I don't8100:06:10.459 --> 00:06:14.060know, with that sensitivity of yourheart, you can neglect to speak the8200:06:14.180 --> 00:06:19.610truth and and to be you toconfront evils because you don't want to drive8300:06:19.689 --> 00:06:24.370people away. But the fact iswe have to honor of the Lord first8400:06:24.449 --> 00:06:27.329and we have to you know,if you know, using the analogy of8500:06:27.329 --> 00:06:30.129a shepherd and she in a sheep, you know, if a sheep is8600:06:30.170 --> 00:06:34.800as a has a splinter in itsHoo, for Paul, I don't where8700:06:34.800 --> 00:06:40.680it's been any they pause every maybewhatever. Either way, if they have8800:06:40.879 --> 00:06:44.360some kind of issue going on there, the shepherd needs to address it,8900:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.879even though it's going to hurt.You know, bandaging up a wound,9000:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.670putting a little bit of antiseptic ona wound one of your sheep is kind9100:06:49.670 --> 00:06:53.709of hurt, could drive them away, right. It could run from you.9200:06:53.949 --> 00:06:56.230Yeah, but you know it's thebest thing and right. So we're9300:06:56.269 --> 00:06:58.829thing you could do is ignore that. Yeah, and we know that with9400:06:59.029 --> 00:07:01.699physical issues. Well, why don'twe know that with emotional and spiritual is?9500:07:01.819 --> 00:07:05.500Yes, the worst thing we cando is pretend the issue doesn't exist9600:07:05.620 --> 00:07:10.579and never speak upon it. Yeah, and as far as this political thing9700:07:10.740 --> 00:07:15.050is concerned, as pastors, wecan't let the world dictate to us what9800:07:15.569 --> 00:07:19.290is a an issue that we don'ttalk about and what's an issue that we9900:07:19.329 --> 00:07:23.569do talk about. This whole idea, and I think we'll maybe talk about10000:07:23.569 --> 00:07:27.449that later on a little bit,the separation between politics and religion. You10100:07:27.490 --> 00:07:30.240know, if we're believers in Jesus, it's not that we're you know,10200:07:30.399 --> 00:07:34.680if our if the chief defining markof my life is that I'm a Republican,10300:07:34.920 --> 00:07:39.199that's a problem. It is.I'm a believer in Jesus, right,10400:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.680but I don't just shy away fromthings that Republicans say and Republicans do10500:07:42.959 --> 00:07:45.949just so the world doesn't view meas a Republican first. No, I10600:07:46.110 --> 00:07:48.509just speak the truth and if ithappens a line up with the Republicans,10700:07:48.550 --> 00:07:53.310say, well, what the Democratssay or libertarian say that it's the truth,10800:07:53.470 --> 00:07:58.110it's according to God's word. So, you know, as far as10900:07:58.149 --> 00:08:01.019we're concerned, like being out onthe sidewalk at the abortion clinic, it's11000:08:01.060 --> 00:08:05.899not like we have a trump flagthat were waving out there or we have,11100:08:05.139 --> 00:08:07.860you know, people come and signup, you know, save your11200:08:07.899 --> 00:08:13.290baby and come up and sign upto vote Republican. It's like the furthest11300:08:13.290 --> 00:08:16.850thing from what our motivation is.It's about a love for God. And11400:08:18.290 --> 00:08:22.769I mean, listen, are wedeceived enough to think the Republican Party is11500:08:22.810 --> 00:08:26.399the savior of the world? Inno way. Republican Party is just as11600:08:26.480 --> 00:08:31.519culbable, maybe even more, inthis abortion Holocaust. Then then the Democrat11700:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.879Party is in some ways, youknow. Yeah, and so, yeah,11800:08:35.919 --> 00:08:37.960this is just not a political thing. In pastors, you can't let11900:08:39.080 --> 00:08:43.389this be from the world telling youhow to view this issue. You can't12000:08:43.429 --> 00:08:46.629let them define this issue for you. This is a gospel issue. We're12100:08:46.710 --> 00:08:52.590talking about the murder if innocent childrenin our country and made in the image12200:08:52.750 --> 00:08:58.620of a holy God. And andSatan knows he he lost when Jesus died12300:08:58.740 --> 00:09:03.700on the Cross and rose from thedead. So he couldn't defeat Jesus,12400:09:05.419 --> 00:09:11.330but he attacks what he is ableto attack, which are the image bearers,12500:09:11.370 --> 00:09:15.529yeah, of God. And andthat is, I think again,12600:09:15.929 --> 00:09:22.090the root of abortion. Destroy theidea that society should be protecting those little12700:09:24.129 --> 00:09:28.720vulnerable image bearers of God, theunborn child. Yeah, so all right.12800:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.240Should we go onto the second one? Yeah, second, top one12900:09:31.360 --> 00:09:37.200is I do not want to bepegged as a crazy right wing conservative.13000:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.070Yeah, so that sort of relatesto the first one. Does again,13100:09:41.110 --> 00:09:48.389it's the political that that abortion isa political issue as opposed to a moral13200:09:48.429 --> 00:09:52.460or Gospel yes, you but,and you know, the thing is,13300:09:52.620 --> 00:09:58.179the Bible says the fear of ManBrings a snare. When our life in13400:09:58.299 --> 00:10:01.860the the motivation behind the things thatwe do, in the directions that we13500:10:01.980 --> 00:10:05.820go in, whether it be aspastors and directing our church to go in13600:10:05.940 --> 00:10:11.490this direction of that direction or whatever, the call of God on our lives,13700:10:11.009 --> 00:10:13.009we can and always have in theback of our mind. Well,13800:10:13.049 --> 00:10:16.250what's the world going to think?You know, certainly the Bible says let13900:10:16.289 --> 00:10:20.570your light so shine before men.We should be a light and we want14000:10:20.610 --> 00:10:24.240to make sure that we're, asbest we can, viewed as blameless and14100:10:24.320 --> 00:10:28.000and and the we're not, youknow, caught up in scandal and all14200:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.559that sort of thing. But whenwe're doing what God has called us to14300:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.830do, the world is going tothink that it's crazy. They're going to14400:10:35.870 --> 00:10:39.389peggy with whatever whatever term they canlisten. You can't please the world.14500:10:39.509 --> 00:10:43.470You can't please people who don't knowGod with the things of God. They're14600:10:43.509 --> 00:10:48.029just not going to understand why you'redoing why are you protecting these zygoats?14700:10:48.149 --> 00:10:52.220Why do you why do you standso strongly against the the you know,14800:10:52.659 --> 00:10:58.059destruction of Zygoats and embryos whatever.They just don't understand, because they don't14900:10:58.059 --> 00:11:01.620understand the value people that are lost. They don't understand the value of human15000:11:01.700 --> 00:11:05.129life. Because when it says here, I don't want to be pegged as15100:11:05.169 --> 00:11:09.570a crazy white ring white right rightwing, that's a little tongue twisted.15200:11:11.169 --> 00:11:15.529Right conservative. By whom? Right? So the implication is by the world15300:11:15.769 --> 00:11:18.080right, by those who are fromthe outside looking in. And all you15400:11:18.200 --> 00:11:20.399have to do is just say,well, I'm not that, yeah,15500:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.000you know, and show that you'renot that through your actions. Because here's15600:11:24.000 --> 00:11:30.240the thing. If if you saythat abortion is wrong and the world wonders,15700:11:30.279 --> 00:11:31.559okay, well, why you thinkit's wrong? What's because it destroys15800:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.830innocent life, and then you justleave it there and you don't do anything15900:11:35.870 --> 00:11:39.830about it and you don't address theissue from the pulpit, then the world16000:11:39.870 --> 00:11:43.629thinks you're hypocrite. All, youthink abortion is wrong, but you never16100:11:43.750 --> 00:11:46.789talked about it, you don't doanything about it. So you can't please16200:11:46.870 --> 00:11:48.259them. That way and you can'tplease them this way. All you talk16300:11:48.299 --> 00:11:50.580about is abortion. All. Ifyou think abortion is wrong, why do16400:11:50.620 --> 00:11:54.379you never talk about so you know, may as well try to please God.16500:11:54.460 --> 00:11:56.419Can't please everybody, because we'll tryto please the Lord. And also16600:11:58.620 --> 00:12:05.250the the way the media presents sidewalkcounselors. Is what I'm thinking. But16700:12:05.490 --> 00:12:09.889but many pro life people, butyeah, especially sidewalk counselors, people out16800:12:09.929 --> 00:12:16.960on the sidewalk actively working to promotelife and and discourage abortion, their caricatured16900:12:18.440 --> 00:12:22.320in in movies, even in somepro life weird kidctured. We are.17000:12:22.960 --> 00:12:30.950We are, and and that issometimes the only view that a pastor or17100:12:31.029 --> 00:12:37.990a congregation have because they've never beenout to the sidewalk and seeing an effective17200:12:37.149 --> 00:12:43.379sidewalk ministry like ours. Yeah,in action, was plugging in in action,17300:12:43.580 --> 00:12:48.460and so they they don't know that. The things that they see of17400:12:48.700 --> 00:12:52.460angry people, you know, wavingflags. Yeah, yeah, I think17500:12:52.539 --> 00:12:54.419of it is mentioned the because wetalked about before this podcast, in the17600:12:54.460 --> 00:12:58.769unplanned movie, the Abby Johnson Movie, yeah, which in a lot of17700:12:58.850 --> 00:13:01.809respects was there was a lot Iloved about that. Yeah, but then17800:13:01.850 --> 00:13:05.490they had the this this sort ofcontrast, I guess you had that really17900:13:05.529 --> 00:13:09.529Nice, sweet sidewalk counselor didn't sayanything, though. Yes, he didn't18000:13:09.529 --> 00:13:11.250say anything, just were there.They just we are praying. And you18100:13:11.330 --> 00:13:16.240had the people, you know,the radical right wing right, come over18200:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.000here and you guy has a hugeBible. You know, of course it's18300:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.200a big BOT KJV Bible. He'syelling at the woman, come over here,18400:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.960don't murder your baby, talking.You know, it's like scoot a18500:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.909man and yeah, angry and pumpinghis fist, and then in the guy18600:13:28.149 --> 00:13:31.909course dress in the grim reaper outfit. You see that and in the crowd.18700:13:31.950 --> 00:13:35.509I've ever seen do that in onour sidewalk is people on the other18800:13:35.549 --> 00:13:39.389side. We've never done that.What I have you me the pro bort18900:13:39.470 --> 00:13:41.980people. Yeah, Oh, yeah, the pro pro abortion people. I19000:13:41.059 --> 00:13:46.860mean they're just a eight weeks ago. They're just like dinosaurs, weird.19100:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.659Yeah, yeah, so there there'sthis caricature and there's this and I can19200:13:50.700 --> 00:13:54.970understand it from a pastor's perspective.I don't want to be associated with that19300:13:56.450 --> 00:14:01.250right. The fact is that certainly, I would say, there are some19400:14:01.490 --> 00:14:03.850folks that act like that and there'sthere's some of that there are, but19500:14:05.009 --> 00:14:07.690there's also really rotten missionaries that dosome rotten things. To do. We19600:14:07.730 --> 00:14:09.720say, well, I don't wantto go in the mission field and I19700:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.679don't want to be talking about missionsbecause I don't want to be pegged as19800:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.639one of those kind of missionaries orwhatever. You know, you know,19900:14:16.679 --> 00:14:20.360you got your your TV of angelistpreachers. That all they talked about his20000:14:20.480 --> 00:14:26.110money and getting more here, raisingmuch touch. The television said there's fanatics,20100:14:26.190 --> 00:14:31.830there's crazy, eccentric crazies. Yeah, in any movement, especially any20200:14:31.909 --> 00:14:35.950movement where there's great passion. Yeah, but that should not be what defines20300:14:37.389 --> 00:14:41.299the movement. And if you don'tknow, if you've never seen a sidewalk20400:14:41.379 --> 00:14:46.860ministry and action, or you've neverspoken with pastors maybe who are passionate about20500:14:46.860 --> 00:14:50.059speaking about abortion, and you don'tknow how they approach it, well,20600:14:50.340 --> 00:14:56.009maybe it would be who've pastors andothers to find out what. Yeah,20700:14:56.129 --> 00:15:01.210responsible and normal people, Yeah,love the Lord and love that. Or,20800:15:01.570 --> 00:15:03.090you know, go and start aministry, like, if you don't20900:15:03.090 --> 00:15:09.320like the way that they're doing it, then then seek the Lord and start21000:15:09.360 --> 00:15:11.759a ministry out of your own congregation. That would do it. What you21100:15:11.840 --> 00:15:13.840perceived to be the right way.Right, you know, when guest said21200:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.960very wise man, I don't knowis that you were know, wasn't me21300:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.590who said something to the effect ofall, I like the way that I'm21400:15:20.669 --> 00:15:24.029doing it better than the way thatyou're not doing it. So you might21500:15:24.110 --> 00:15:26.909be critical of what I'm doing,okay, but at least I'm doing something,21600:15:28.149 --> 00:15:30.950you know, at least I'm outthere and you know, we could21700:15:30.950 --> 00:15:33.149be critical of other people doing thingslike wow, I would not do it21800:15:33.269 --> 00:15:37.779that way. Okay, then comeand show me how you would do it,21900:15:37.019 --> 00:15:41.419you know, show me in certainlyas a ministry and as the director22000:15:41.539 --> 00:15:46.940this Ministry, I'm always open topastures. Given me feedback on right.22100:15:46.019 --> 00:15:48.899Okay, what could we do better? You know, long as it's long22200:15:48.940 --> 00:15:50.970as you can give me scripture.The call. Yeah, long as you22300:15:52.009 --> 00:15:54.769give me scription. If you justgive me some opinion of man and some22400:15:54.009 --> 00:15:58.129you know, business model or somethinglike that, I could really care less.22500:15:58.450 --> 00:16:00.250But if you give me scripture andshow me in the scripture where something22600:16:00.370 --> 00:16:04.440I'm doing is is off base andit doesn't honor the Lord Man, I'm22700:16:04.559 --> 00:16:07.480I'll be the first to thank youand then correct that thing. Yeah,22800:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.440but sometimes you know as pastors,if we don't, you know, if22900:16:11.480 --> 00:16:15.519we don't want to be associated witha caricature of something, first of all,23000:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.549more than likely that caricature is incorrect, especially if you're being fed that23100:16:18.669 --> 00:16:22.549from the world. Right, right? Can you trust the world to give23200:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.990a good and accurate representation of thepeople of God? No, no,23300:16:26.190 --> 00:16:30.470not really. So don't. Don'tbelieve that. But even if those caricatures23400:16:30.509 --> 00:16:34.500are true, then then be anexample of what is right, what is23500:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.700wholesome, what honors the Lord inthat realm of ministry. Uh Huh.23600:16:38.059 --> 00:16:41.220Well, I'll tell you. Whatattracted me so much to our ministry,23700:16:41.299 --> 00:16:47.889to cities for life, was thatI loved the pleading aspect of it,23800:16:47.970 --> 00:16:52.610which I felt followed the heart ofGod. It struck me as how Jesus23900:16:52.649 --> 00:16:56.169would approach, yeah, this sortof ministry, were he to do this24000:16:56.330 --> 00:17:03.639sort of ministry I did. Ididn't hear a tone of condemnation, but24100:17:03.960 --> 00:17:08.480of a true desire to help guidepeople in a biblical way, back to24200:17:08.640 --> 00:17:15.950God, yeah, and to thelove of their child. So there are24300:17:15.150 --> 00:17:22.230ministries. I know firsthand. Thereare ministries that that are very biblically Gospel,24400:17:22.349 --> 00:17:30.099if Gospel focused and and I wouldI would really encourage pastors to go24500:17:30.140 --> 00:17:36.140out and find those in common andseek out those different ministries and and support24600:17:36.259 --> 00:17:40.819them, because we do need support. Yeah, okay, here's one.24700:17:41.940 --> 00:17:47.650I feel inadequate to address the issueof abortion. Yeah, it's probably true.24800:17:48.049 --> 00:17:51.410You should. They are. Yeah, I'man inadequate. Well, the24900:17:51.490 --> 00:17:53.849Apostle Paul, I believe this,in the first couple of chapters of First25000:17:53.930 --> 00:17:57.450Corinthians, where he's talking about hesays, I'm going to be able to25100:17:57.450 --> 00:18:02.920quote it exactly, but he saystalking about the proclamation of the Gospel and25200:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.240those who are believers, he saysto some we are the fragrance of death25300:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.319leading to death and some we arethe fragrance of life leading to life.25400:18:08.359 --> 00:18:12.750And so he's talking about how somepeople except the Gospel and receive us as25500:18:12.789 --> 00:18:17.670ministers of the Gospel. Well,and some people reject the Gospel and reject25600:18:17.710 --> 00:18:21.309US as ministers. And then hesays who is sufficient for these things?25700:18:21.789 --> 00:18:26.029So Paul even recognizes the Great ApostlePaul, who all of us want to25800:18:26.029 --> 00:18:29.420be like when we grow up.If anyone is sufficient, he should be25900:18:29.420 --> 00:18:33.980suicacious. Who is sufficient for thesethings? Recognizing that our sufficiency is not26000:18:33.140 --> 00:18:37.900in and of ourselves and based onour own wisdom, but our sufficiency comes26100:18:37.940 --> 00:18:41.769from Christ. So when we thisis a mountainous issue to address, there's26200:18:41.809 --> 00:18:45.930no doubt about it, because theissue of abortion affects individuals, it kills26300:18:45.970 --> 00:18:49.930individual lies, it affects individual womenand men, but are also is a26400:18:51.049 --> 00:18:55.450national sin or the innocent blood ofthese children is as a nation, we're26500:18:55.450 --> 00:19:00.079guilty for a massive and that thatone. And for people have yet an26600:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.759abortion, is what those that arewant. And for women, yeah,26700:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.720have had A and who? Iwould say this is the number one moral26800:19:06.759 --> 00:19:11.670issue of our day. So it'sa mountainous issue to address, but we26900:19:11.750 --> 00:19:15.589shouldn't let the the you know,God moves mountains, right. Yeah,27000:19:15.750 --> 00:19:18.509we shouldn't let the the fact thatthis is a big issue and a mountainous27100:19:18.509 --> 00:19:22.589issue make a shot back from addressingthe issue. What we need to do27200:19:22.869 --> 00:19:26.980is, pastors is pressed into Godand ask God, how do I address27300:19:26.980 --> 00:19:30.420this issue? Because no one,at least I'm not pretending that it's an27400:19:30.420 --> 00:19:37.220easy issue to address and that there'ssomehow a biblical percentage of how often you're27500:19:37.220 --> 00:19:41.170to talk about abortion and how oftenyou're not. I don't know what that27600:19:41.369 --> 00:19:45.569is, but I do know thatit's pastors, we're to address the issues27700:19:45.650 --> 00:19:48.210that are that are moral issues inour society and in our day. That's27800:19:48.289 --> 00:19:52.849that's a mandate. We have todo that. Yeah, and we have27900:19:52.880 --> 00:19:56.279to address those issues forth rightly,but also with grace, and so seeking28000:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.839the Lord and trying to figure out, okay, when would God have me28100:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.079to address this issue and how howdeep do I get into this issue?28200:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.509Do you do a series about thesanctity of human life? Do you do28300:20:07.630 --> 00:20:11.190you talk about just do a seriesof just about abortion, and I think28400:20:11.230 --> 00:20:15.630that would be very fitting. So, yeah, we're not adequate. I'm28500:20:15.630 --> 00:20:18.869not adequate. I'm not adequate tobe out on the sidewalk at the abortion28600:20:18.950 --> 00:20:22.180clinic right if I was adequate andof myself, that would probably be an28700:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.740issue. It would be who needsto have the right, and we do.28800:20:25.940 --> 00:20:29.099We need, desperately need him.I got this figured out. Less28900:20:29.140 --> 00:20:32.180to help with that. Of thecounterpoint to this that, well, it's29000:20:32.259 --> 00:20:37.250not in opposition to what you're saying, but just complimenting what you're saying.29100:20:37.490 --> 00:20:41.769Is Well, if you're inadequate inan area, you know in the say,29200:20:41.849 --> 00:20:47.890the facts that you need to knowto to be able to address this29300:20:48.049 --> 00:20:52.240issue. Well, there's so manyresources out there, there is so much.29400:20:52.480 --> 00:20:57.599There is a wealth of information available, and so educate yourself. That's29500:20:57.599 --> 00:21:03.119what I did when I knew nothing, really when I when I came six29600:21:03.200 --> 00:21:07.470years ago to the sidewalk and whenI didn't know something, I'd Google it29700:21:07.589 --> 00:21:10.109or I got you know, therewas a way to find the information.29800:21:10.630 --> 00:21:14.589But the second thing is, andI think it's so important, is that29900:21:15.029 --> 00:21:21.099there are ministries devoted to this.Yeah, devoted to pro life issues,30000:21:21.259 --> 00:21:26.859devoted to sidewalk advocacy. The pastordoesn't need all the answers, but it30100:21:26.099 --> 00:21:30.339sure would be good, in myopinion, for the churches to be supporting30200:21:30.500 --> 00:21:36.529those ministries because we we don't haveall the answers, but we do have30300:21:36.690 --> 00:21:42.690a wealth of experience in dealing withthese issues and and so. But you30400:21:42.769 --> 00:21:47.089know, with the support of thechurch it they can be so much more30500:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.839effectively. Yeah, and you know, I think of you locally. I'm30600:21:49.920 --> 00:21:55.200certainly willing and have gone to churchesand spoken of the issue of abortion,30700:21:55.559 --> 00:21:57.279spoke on it, you know,not just from the sidewalk counseling perspective.30800:21:57.319 --> 00:22:02.029It just the General Perspective Love Life, our partner ministry. They do that30900:22:02.150 --> 00:22:06.829on a regular basis. They goand share the tragic truth of abortion the31000:22:07.390 --> 00:22:12.829congregations in our city. Even pregnancycenters go and plenty of pregnancy to center31100:22:12.910 --> 00:22:17.700directors, Tara, who we hadon the podcast some months ago with Monroe.31200:22:17.859 --> 00:22:19.660Hell, yeah, with help,pregnancy center has gone and spoken at31300:22:19.660 --> 00:22:23.819churches and youth groups and whatever.You know. And so if pastors are31400:22:23.859 --> 00:22:26.220looking and saying, well, youknow, I'm in adequate to address this31500:22:26.339 --> 00:22:30.289issue, and again, yes andAmen, yes you are, but God31600:22:30.329 --> 00:22:33.529can give you the grace to doit. But maybe that's a charge or31700:22:33.650 --> 00:22:37.970that's a that's a time where yousay, Hey, I'll get somebody else31800:22:37.970 --> 00:22:40.970to address this issue. I'll talkto a pregnancy center, I'll talk to31900:22:41.450 --> 00:22:44.880another ministry that can come and writeand do a presentation or, you know,32000:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.680speak for fifteen, twenty minutes orwhatever, however you do that.32100:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.119There's other people that can address thisissue. Yeah, exactly. So.32200:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.799So we'll move on to then.I believe this is number four. Okay,32300:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.990and this is a big one.I am afraid I will alienate and32400:23:02.109 --> 00:23:06.549drive away women who have had abortion. Yeah. Well, you know the32500:23:06.630 --> 00:23:11.230statistic. I think you gave itearlier. One in for women have had32600:23:11.269 --> 00:23:15.940an abortion, and that translates alsointo the church. Yeah, so likely32700:23:15.539 --> 00:23:22.259in the congregation that you pastors areaddressing on a weekly basis, there's several32800:23:22.299 --> 00:23:26.460women, at least a couple ofwomen, that have had abortion in their32900:23:26.539 --> 00:23:30.329past. Yeah, and some havebeen, you know, forthright with it33000:23:30.490 --> 00:23:34.849and it's part of their testimony andthey share that testimony. Some haven't shared33100:23:34.890 --> 00:23:38.329it with anybody. They're suffering insilence. And I had read when I33200:23:38.450 --> 00:23:44.759was researching for this podcast, thatseventy percent of the women who go for33300:23:44.839 --> 00:23:49.759an abortion identify asked Christians. Yeah, so they're there. There's yeah,33400:23:49.799 --> 00:23:52.240we see it through, see itas we stand on the sidewalk. We33500:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.910see the cars drive in with thechurch stickers. Yeah, all the time.33600:23:56.069 --> 00:24:00.430Yeah, and that's maybe a podcastfor another day, but that reality33700:24:00.549 --> 00:24:03.829is that, I would say,the vast majority of those don't really know33800:24:04.029 --> 00:24:08.829the Lord and are not really partof the church anyway. Yeah, however,33900:24:10.220 --> 00:24:14.460they are in congregations and that isa valid concern, and even from34000:24:14.500 --> 00:24:18.740those who you know who've been inthe congregation for years and have an abortion34100:24:18.140 --> 00:24:22.819in their past and haven't shared that. You have to be sensitive to those34200:24:22.900 --> 00:24:27.809issues. You need to be considerateas a shepherd of the sheep, you34300:24:27.930 --> 00:24:32.650know, as the analogy goes fromthe scripture. But, as I said34400:24:32.730 --> 00:24:36.289earlier, you know as a shepherdthere's wounds that we have to tend to34500:24:36.490 --> 00:24:38.960and they're gonna hurt. It mightdrive the sheep a little bit away and34600:24:40.559 --> 00:24:44.599you gotta Trust God to bring themnear. You know, as a doctor,34700:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.759in the analogy of a doctor,you know, doctor might say something34800:24:47.799 --> 00:24:49.599to the effect of, you know, cancer is a big issue. It's34900:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.150probably one of the biggest issues weface. And as a doctor, if35000:24:53.230 --> 00:24:56.869I talk about cancer and I've gota patient that has cancer potentially, you35100:24:56.950 --> 00:25:00.430know I could talk about the risksof cancer. If you do this and35200:25:00.549 --> 00:25:03.509do that, you know I mightdrive people away and I'm telling make him35300:25:03.549 --> 00:25:07.339feel bad. Plenty of doctors haveaddressed and not to address with their patients35400:25:07.619 --> 00:25:12.299smoking in the risks that smoking causesas far as cancer, lung cancer is35500:25:12.420 --> 00:25:17.819concerned. has that ever driven apatient away from a doctor? I guarantee35600:25:17.819 --> 00:25:19.140you it has. There have beenpatients that have said I'm not going to35700:25:19.220 --> 00:25:22.569that doctor anymore. He talks toomuch about how could get lung cancer or35800:25:22.609 --> 00:25:26.849obesity. I'm not going to thatdoctor anymore. He talks too much about35900:25:26.849 --> 00:25:29.849how much I'm eating and I needto watch my way because I could get36000:25:29.890 --> 00:25:32.410diabetes and all these other things.I don't want to go to that guy36100:25:32.410 --> 00:25:36.039anymore because he makes me feel bad. All right, but that's what he's36200:25:36.039 --> 00:25:40.079supposed to do. He's supposed toaddress is if he really cares about his36300:25:40.200 --> 00:25:44.279patient, he's going to talk aboutsmoking and the risks they're involved in smoke.36400:25:44.279 --> 00:25:48.599He's going to talk about obesity andthe risk that are involved in eating36500:25:48.640 --> 00:25:52.630too much and obesity and not workingout. All that because he's a good36600:25:52.630 --> 00:25:56.269doctor. In the same way apastor, we have to address these issues.36700:25:56.069 --> 00:26:00.230We have to deal with issue ofabortion because it's worse than cancer.36800:26:00.950 --> 00:26:07.779It spreads and it devastates families,it leaves women under oppression and depression and36900:26:07.980 --> 00:26:11.259we have to address the issue,just like a doctor has to address the37000:26:11.339 --> 00:26:17.299issue of cancer before he can talkstart talking about surgery and start talking about37100:26:17.339 --> 00:26:19.289remedy to this issue of cancer.You know, you deal with that with37200:26:19.410 --> 00:26:22.650breast cancer. Yeah, some yearsback in your doctor had to give you37300:26:22.730 --> 00:26:26.769the whole, the cold hard truthabout this thing. Yeah, so,37400:26:26.849 --> 00:26:29.369yeah, I would be willing toreceive the the remedy. Yeah, and37500:26:29.690 --> 00:26:33.240I mean none of their motive wasmake us feel bad. Yeah, the37600:26:33.599 --> 00:26:41.799motive is is to to heal andto maybe prevent from getting a disease,37700:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.880if you're going with the analogy ofthe doctor. But in the in terms37800:26:45.920 --> 00:26:52.509of abortion, congregation is filled ofpotential abortion minded women. Yeah, and37900:26:52.670 --> 00:26:56.150if no one is speaking about that, the word of God is quite clear38000:26:56.829 --> 00:27:03.140that the shedding of innocent blood isan abomination before God and that the unborn38100:27:03.140 --> 00:27:07.819child is made in the image ofGod and has intrinsic value based on that.38200:27:10.299 --> 00:27:15.210If no one is sharing that,then that women go thinking, well,38300:27:15.250 --> 00:27:18.809my church is okay with them.They've never said anything against it.38400:27:19.210 --> 00:27:25.650Yeah, so that's one of thedangers of silence. But a second danger38500:27:25.970 --> 00:27:33.359of silence is if the pastor's nottalking about abortion, then the post abortive38600:27:33.400 --> 00:27:41.240woman who is largely feeling shame andis in this cocoon. Well, it's38700:27:41.240 --> 00:27:48.109not a cocoon, it's really aprison of silence. She's afraid to share.38800:27:48.109 --> 00:27:52.750Yeah, she has had an abortionand the wounds run very deep and38900:27:53.269 --> 00:27:57.900a pastor silence only contributes, yeah, to that feeling that this is a39000:27:59.059 --> 00:28:03.339taboo. The SABA passion never talksabout it. Therefore I should never talk39100:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.420about it. And I and I'mjustified in feeling all of this shame and39200:28:07.579 --> 00:28:15.329self condemnation and and it will neverheal unless that sin is recognized first of39300:28:15.410 --> 00:28:22.529all as a sin, is confessed, is repented and turned from and then39400:28:22.809 --> 00:28:26.130is given to the Lord. Yeah, and he will, he will take39500:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.599that burden, yeah, away fromus. But not not if they're silence.39600:28:30.839 --> 00:28:36.839None of that healing is going tohappen, at least not the spiritual39700:28:37.559 --> 00:28:41.160healing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and if, as a pastor,39800:28:41.509 --> 00:28:45.109you know that that's our chief desire, that the healing that God offers.39900:28:45.309 --> 00:28:48.470Yeah, let you know problem.Sin Is introduced and accepted, you know,40000:28:48.549 --> 00:28:52.309by those of you are listening rightnow. An example is just from40100:28:52.390 --> 00:28:59.420today out on the sidewalk they're awoman stopped on on her way into the40200:28:59.460 --> 00:29:03.299abortion center and and I handed herinformation, thinking she was there for an40300:29:03.299 --> 00:29:07.500abortion, and she was very honestand said I'm not pregnant, that she40400:29:07.859 --> 00:29:11.769already had the abortion it. Yeah, and I said well, how are40500:29:11.809 --> 00:29:15.490you feeling? How are you dealingwith it? and Said, Oh,40600:29:15.490 --> 00:29:19.769I'm good, and she's just smilingand I said, honey, I don't40700:29:19.809 --> 00:29:26.880think you're good, I'm I'm postabortive and I know the aftermath of abortion,40800:29:26.480 --> 00:29:32.440and she teared up and took mypost abortive information that we handed her40900:29:32.880 --> 00:29:37.710and just instantly her demeanor changed.Yeah, so she could carry on this41000:29:37.869 --> 00:29:44.029veneer of feeling that she was good, but as soon as the issue was41100:29:44.230 --> 00:29:49.750brought up she melted and I immediatelywent to a discussion of confession, forgiveness,41200:29:49.869 --> 00:29:53.059turning to God and that I wouldtalk to her any time, and41300:29:53.299 --> 00:29:56.259so I hope, I hope shewill call me. But but that's where41400:29:56.259 --> 00:30:03.619healing begins, when that silence islifted. Yeah, you know the analogy41500:30:03.660 --> 00:30:06.859of a doctor. Again, ifyou're dealing with a wound and you're dealing41600:30:06.900 --> 00:30:11.650with something that's you know it's underlying, it's not very evident. This wound41700:30:11.730 --> 00:30:14.210is kind of covered up and it'scovered up. You know, however,41800:30:14.250 --> 00:30:17.890it's covered up, but the infectionis not dealt with, it gets worse41900:30:18.369 --> 00:30:21.799and it can ultimately lead to death. Right, and the same way with42000:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.720the issue of abortion. This isa deep wound that needs to be addressed.42100:30:25.960 --> 00:30:30.680It needs to be some antiseptic,the Gospel and aseptic applied to it.42200:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.039But if it just stays covered upand it's not dealt with, it's42300:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.990going to fester and as gonna beall kinds of destruction. And that comes42400:30:37.670 --> 00:30:41.829from that wound. And look atwhat the world is saying, though,42500:30:41.190 --> 00:30:48.109about abortion. The the pro choiceside, is saying it's normal. Yeah,42600:30:48.630 --> 00:30:55.900it's okay, there is no aftermath, no consequences. And so here's42700:30:55.980 --> 00:31:00.140this woman suffering in silence. HerPastor's not talking about it, the world42800:31:00.299 --> 00:31:03.539her for she's not daring to shareit with anyone. Yeah, and she42900:31:03.059 --> 00:31:08.170knows that's not true. She knowsshe doesn't feel normal. Yeah, she43000:31:08.490 --> 00:31:14.730knows she's wounded and she feels thisguilt that she doesn't know what to do43100:31:14.930 --> 00:31:18.480with because there's no one and it'salmost like a guilt of huldn't be feeling43200:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.960guilty like these, everybody says.So I'm abnormal. I'm completely out of43300:31:23.000 --> 00:31:26.279the norm. Here there's people shoutingtheir abortions. So why am I not?43400:31:26.599 --> 00:31:30.160Why is that not what I'm feeling? Yeah, and if there's our43500:31:30.279 --> 00:31:36.589spiritual heads, the the pastors inour churches, if they're not telling them43600:31:37.069 --> 00:31:41.670this is wrong and there is apath to forgiveness and healing. But we43700:31:41.990 --> 00:31:48.859have to recognize it's wrong first.Then, you know, they then they'll43800:31:48.859 --> 00:31:53.140go on suffering in silence. Yeah, to worse and worse consequences. Yeah,43900:31:55.339 --> 00:31:59.019so those were the top five.Okay, and in this one,44000:31:59.059 --> 00:32:02.650let's see if there's some other ones. I do not want to be seen44100:32:02.690 --> 00:32:08.690as conferencetional, is what one pasture. Yeah, or several pastors apparently reported.44200:32:08.730 --> 00:32:12.730It's being why they don't talk aboutit. Yeah, and of course,44300:32:12.730 --> 00:32:16.240again this is a this is acontroversial issue, obviously, and anything44400:32:16.279 --> 00:32:22.079that's controversial, when you mention it, you're viewed as a confrontational and in44500:32:22.200 --> 00:32:27.279a sense, in any time you'readdressing sin, you are confronting evil and44600:32:27.799 --> 00:32:31.190there is a confrontation that takes place. But you know, as pastures and44700:32:31.549 --> 00:32:35.990as ministers of the Gospel, ifwe don't deal with the issue of sin,44800:32:36.109 --> 00:32:37.549I just abortion, but any othersin, if we don't talk about44900:32:37.710 --> 00:32:42.990sin, we are derelict in ourduty as pastors. We have to talk45000:32:43.029 --> 00:32:46.740about sin because sin is the issueall of the eels of society, all45100:32:46.779 --> 00:32:51.539the problems that are going on inthe congregation and the things in their past45200:32:51.619 --> 00:32:54.500that they're dealing with that they needhealing from a rooted in sin. And45300:32:54.539 --> 00:32:58.890so we don't address sin, theywe're not addressing the main issue of separation45400:32:58.970 --> 00:33:01.849between God and Man. You know, they're sort of this. It irks45500:33:01.890 --> 00:33:05.650me now in one sense it's true. Okay, I listen to a lot45600:33:05.690 --> 00:33:10.130of Christian preaching and Christian music andall that stuff, and the center around45700:33:10.130 --> 00:33:14.160this idea is that people don't knowhow much God loves them and if only45800:33:14.160 --> 00:33:15.839knew how much God loves them,how much they are value by God and45900:33:15.920 --> 00:33:20.200how special they are to God andhow wonderful they are in God's sight.46000:33:20.240 --> 00:33:22.039Okay, I'm going a little farwith it, but you know, and46100:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.670saying that it's like it's focused onthat. People don't go to hell because46200:33:27.710 --> 00:33:30.470they don't know how much God lovesthem. People don't end up in hell46300:33:30.549 --> 00:33:34.950and on destructive ass because they don'tunderstand how wonderful they are to God.46400:33:35.789 --> 00:33:38.309People go to hell because of theirsin. That's why they go to hell.46500:33:38.589 --> 00:33:44.180God puts people inhale because they aresinners who love their sin. We46600:33:44.259 --> 00:33:45.339can talk about the love of God, and we should, but the love46700:33:45.339 --> 00:33:52.180of God is only fully seen inlight of our our reprobation against God.46800:33:52.299 --> 00:33:55.690Right, depravity, reason why heshouldn't love us. Right, yeah.46900:33:55.970 --> 00:34:00.730But but the fact that he lovesUS despite the fact that we're sinner and47000:34:00.970 --> 00:34:05.369that in that is the the loveof God displayed. Is that we were47100:34:05.490 --> 00:34:08.730yet sinners. Right, Christ diedfor us. So our sin and our47200:34:08.809 --> 00:34:14.760depravity and our departure from the truth, and yet God's willingness to come and47300:34:14.840 --> 00:34:20.480to rescue and to save is amagnificent display of the love of God and47400:34:21.159 --> 00:34:24.389in that people have confidence in God'slove, that God would come and rescue47500:34:24.389 --> 00:34:27.670me in the midst of my depravity. So, anyway, I say that47600:34:27.789 --> 00:34:30.269to say that we need to talkabout the issue of sin, we need47700:34:30.309 --> 00:34:34.030to talk about the issue of abortionand other sins so that people can actually47800:34:34.030 --> 00:34:37.820see the love of God on displayand his mercy towards sinners. Yeah,47900:34:37.860 --> 00:34:43.219and and that's an important that's someimportant job for every pastor. Yeah,48000:34:43.219 --> 00:34:50.300I can't. I don't know anypastor who can effectively pastor at Church without48100:34:50.539 --> 00:34:53.170confronting yeah, without being confrontational.Now, you can do it in a48200:34:53.329 --> 00:34:59.650loving way. Yeah, but youknow, if you who's our example ultimately,48300:34:59.730 --> 00:35:02.929well, Jesus, Jesus example.Did Jesus ever mentioned him? Think48400:35:02.969 --> 00:35:07.000you did quite a few times,a matter of fact. Often Times.48500:35:07.039 --> 00:35:13.519Jesus was very confrontational and confronted,of course, the Pharisees in their hypocrisy,48600:35:14.440 --> 00:35:15.840but he was not just you know, he confronted. You know,48700:35:15.920 --> 00:35:19.679we look at John Chapter Four,at the story of the woman at the48800:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.989well. Yeah, and she comesand approaches him and she's wanting water and48900:35:23.150 --> 00:35:25.190you know, he says, youwould ask me, I could give you49000:35:25.309 --> 00:35:29.670living water, and she says,well, I only get this water anyway.49100:35:29.710 --> 00:35:31.150You know the story. But hedoesn't just leave it there. You49200:35:31.230 --> 00:35:34.550know, listen, women, youknow I love you a whole lot.49300:35:34.590 --> 00:35:37.300I just love you and your specialto me and all that being a little49400:35:37.300 --> 00:35:40.380silly, you get them saying,but he talks about her sin, like49500:35:40.539 --> 00:35:44.780he's pointing out to her. Hesays, okay, good, call your49600:35:44.780 --> 00:35:46.059husband here and she's like, well, I don't have a husband. He's49700:35:46.099 --> 00:35:51.250like, Oh, yeah, youspoke right. You have had five husband's49800:35:51.250 --> 00:35:53.530and the guy you're with now isnot even your husband. He's calling out49900:35:53.570 --> 00:35:57.849her sin. Yeah, he's notjust hugging her and tell her how much50000:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.530he loves her. And now,of course, he does display the love50100:36:00.610 --> 00:36:04.679of God and all of that.And and it seems like that whole area50200:36:05.320 --> 00:36:08.239people came to Jesus and hurt histeaching and she proclaimed. You know,50300:36:08.320 --> 00:36:12.880she ultimately receives a truth of WHOthis guy is, but he talks about50400:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.719her sin in the same way.You know in John, I think it's50500:36:15.719 --> 00:36:19.630John Chapter Ten, with the womanthat's was caught an adultrey. What does50600:36:19.670 --> 00:36:21.750he tell her? He doesn't say, you know, after you know,50700:36:22.110 --> 00:36:23.230you guys know the stories. Idon't need to retell it. But all50800:36:23.269 --> 00:36:28.150the accusers had left. It doesn'tsay, oh so we're your accusers,50900:36:28.389 --> 00:36:30.630will just remember I love you right, you know, he says go and51000:36:30.829 --> 00:36:36.780sin no more. He talks aboutsin even to because we might imagine Jesus51100:36:36.780 --> 00:36:38.900is very harsh with the Pharisees buthe's very soft with everyone else, and51200:36:39.019 --> 00:36:44.059that in one sense is true.But he does talk about sin. He51300:36:44.179 --> 00:36:45.579does talk about sin with the womanat the well, with the woman caught51400:36:45.579 --> 00:36:50.449an adultery, talks about sin withhis own apostles and talks about their sin51500:36:50.570 --> 00:36:52.170of wanting to be, you know, the first in the Kingdom of God51600:36:52.210 --> 00:36:54.730and want to sit beside him andon this throne. He talks about that51700:36:54.849 --> 00:37:00.530sin of selfishness and and self promotion. And so Jesus is always addressing the51800:37:00.570 --> 00:37:05.320issue is sin. Yes, Jesusis now, and was then, a51900:37:05.559 --> 00:37:10.920very confrontational person, but he isvery gracious in his confrontation. Yeah,52000:37:12.360 --> 00:37:15.750and that's key, except for thewhip of cords incident, and that was52100:37:15.869 --> 00:37:19.949one, actually twice. Okay,yeah, it seems. It seems that52200:37:19.989 --> 00:37:23.949happened twice. Okay, so youknow, and pastors are trained, presumably,52300:37:24.750 --> 00:37:30.500to be gracious and how that theyconfronts sin, but they they certainly52400:37:30.219 --> 00:37:32.139need to come when you know,I hear a lot of times you know,52500:37:32.219 --> 00:37:36.619we need to speak the truth andlove, and what that basically means52600:37:36.780 --> 00:37:39.300is we need to be nice topeople. And it's true, but we52700:37:39.619 --> 00:37:43.820again, we can't let the worlddictate, dictate to us what it means52800:37:43.940 --> 00:37:49.210to be speaking the truth and love. Like speaking the truth is love for52900:37:49.369 --> 00:37:52.050some people who are in sin,dead in our trispasses and sins, or53000:37:52.050 --> 00:37:57.010at least in bondage to pass endseven though they're Christians. This is kind53100:37:57.050 --> 00:38:00.400of mostly what we're talking about asChristians in the congregation who are born of53200:38:00.519 --> 00:38:04.960God and yet they have this sinin their past that they've not brought before53300:38:04.960 --> 00:38:08.239the Lord, at least in anykind of a public in a healing way.53400:38:09.239 --> 00:38:14.389We need are or they're sitting therecontemplating abortion? It could be yes,53500:38:14.630 --> 00:38:17.429sure, and so we need toaddress this issue for the sake of53600:38:17.469 --> 00:38:22.829healing and restoration and for the sakeof love. Love is an action word53700:38:22.030 --> 00:38:24.789and as pastors, if we're goingto love our congregants, we need to53800:38:24.829 --> 00:38:29.219be talking about the issues that affectthem. An abortion is one of those.53900:38:29.539 --> 00:38:32.179We know it's statistically that one outof four women are affected by the54000:38:32.219 --> 00:38:36.179issue of abortion. So you gotto address the thing, even if we're54100:38:36.179 --> 00:38:42.690viewed as confrontation. Yeah, sokind of a similar issue raised by some54200:38:42.849 --> 00:38:45.329other pastors. I do not wantto drive away anyone who has had an54300:38:45.329 --> 00:38:51.010abortion or who has been directly touchedby abortion. Yeah, and that's sort54400:38:51.010 --> 00:38:53.769of similar to the in the confrontationthing and some of the previous things.54500:38:53.969 --> 00:38:59.639You know, I don't want toI don't want to alienate anyone and I54600:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.000get it valid concern. But again, just like a doctor, he doesn't54700:39:02.000 --> 00:39:07.320want to drive patients aways. Sodoes he refuse to talk about cancer or54800:39:07.559 --> 00:39:10.070obesity or whatever? Of course notright, because this is job to address54900:39:10.070 --> 00:39:17.269these issues so that they can bedealt with. Yeah, how about my55000:39:17.469 --> 00:39:23.820fellow pastors are not talking about thistopic either. Yeah, wow, that55100:39:23.980 --> 00:39:29.380pastors actually said that. That wasthat's a main reason why they don't,55200:39:30.300 --> 00:39:34.260because they feel like they'd be aloneand discussing, yeah, the topic.55300:39:34.420 --> 00:39:38.210Sometimes you have to stand out ina crowd, don't you? Sometimes you55400:39:38.329 --> 00:39:43.769have to be the one who's addressingthe things that other people aren't. Sounds55500:39:43.809 --> 00:39:49.250a little bit like the Prophets ofthe apostles, Jesus. You know,55600:39:49.849 --> 00:39:53.679sometimes you have to be the guythat's addressing the issue that no one else55700:39:53.719 --> 00:39:58.360wants to talk about, because,again, it's the heart of God to55800:39:58.440 --> 00:40:00.360to get these things out. Youknow the motivation, and it's if it55900:40:00.440 --> 00:40:04.800comes from a some self righteous motivation. Or I want to talk about abortion.56000:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.869I talk about abortion all the timebecause I've never had one and been56100:40:07.869 --> 00:40:09.150a part of one and it makesme feel more spiritual. Well, that56200:40:09.190 --> 00:40:13.349would be a problem. That's probablynot the case with most pastors there.56300:40:13.429 --> 00:40:16.750They're shining away from it because theywant alienate, isolate and and they don't56400:40:16.750 --> 00:40:22.059want to stand out in a crowdof you know pastors. They're addressing issues.56500:40:22.099 --> 00:40:25.139Yeah, but that's only really goodpoint. That that every prophet,56600:40:25.260 --> 00:40:30.780in Jesus himself, were were reviled. Yeah, and rejected by men.56700:40:31.139 --> 00:40:34.820Yeah, what Jesus said, ifthey rejected me, they're going to reject56800:40:34.860 --> 00:40:37.929you as well. Right, themotivation in again is not like want to56900:40:37.969 --> 00:40:42.690be rejected. So let me gocompletely over the top with my proclamation of57000:40:42.769 --> 00:40:45.929this particular truth. No, weaddress it in Biblical terms, in a57100:40:45.969 --> 00:40:51.320biblical framework. But again, theworld, the world's Goin to view us57200:40:51.320 --> 00:40:54.119as nuts anyway. And we're talkingabout this eternal God who exists in three57300:40:54.199 --> 00:40:58.960persons, who came to this earth, lay down his life to die for57400:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.760our sins and rose from the grave. The world thinks that, like the57500:41:00.840 --> 00:41:06.230Bible says that Gospel, the preachingof the cross, is foolishness to those57600:41:06.269 --> 00:41:08.869who are perish. You know theworld does when they call the preaching of57700:41:08.909 --> 00:41:13.389the Cross and the prepeaching of thetruths of God foolishness, is they just57800:41:13.429 --> 00:41:15.230validate the scripture actually, because theBible says that. They would call it57900:41:15.269 --> 00:41:19.139foolishness. Yeah, so, youknow, we can't fall into the trap58000:41:19.300 --> 00:41:22.300and the snare of the fear ofman and let the world dictate to us58100:41:22.340 --> 00:41:27.099the things that we talk about.We can address issues and there are plenty58200:41:27.139 --> 00:41:30.059of and this is an admonishment Iwant to give to anyone who is listening,58300:41:30.300 --> 00:41:34.010whether it be a pastor that's listeningor congregate who wants to talk to58400:41:34.090 --> 00:41:37.449your pastor about addressing the issue ofabortion, is that there are plenty of58500:41:37.530 --> 00:41:42.530pastors out there on the Internet thathave that very graciously and fourth rightly address58600:41:42.610 --> 00:41:45.130this issue. I mean, ifyou search abortion, what does the Bible58700:41:45.170 --> 00:41:47.199say about abortion, you're going tofind, you know, John Piper is58800:41:47.239 --> 00:41:52.199one of those guys who you almostlike. The first three articles on that58900:41:52.599 --> 00:41:54.440you know and that Google search aregoing to be from him, and then59000:41:54.440 --> 00:41:59.559you're going to find plenty of otherpastors that have addressed this issue and even59100:41:59.599 --> 00:42:02.949messages you can listen to that willkind of give you an idea of how59200:42:02.989 --> 00:42:07.070to go about this issue if youhaven't or, you know, if you're59300:42:07.070 --> 00:42:10.510a congregant and you want your pastoraddresses issue, find some messages from some59400:42:10.670 --> 00:42:14.590pastors that have and pass it alongto your pastor and say hey, this59500:42:14.750 --> 00:42:17.699pastor, and it quite likely he'sit's a pastor that your pastor listens to59600:42:17.820 --> 00:42:22.260or reads his books or whatever.Hey, this pastor addresses issue. Maybe,59700:42:22.420 --> 00:42:24.460maybe you could address this thing.You know, I know they're there's59800:42:24.619 --> 00:42:29.900I'm sure there's pressure on pastures togrow your church, yeah, and to59900:42:30.329 --> 00:42:37.849have your congregation like you and andto invite all their friends. So I60000:42:37.650 --> 00:42:44.050you know, and some of thatis good, but if it's the motivation60100:42:44.880 --> 00:42:52.559for whether you speak about a sinor not, then it's not good at60200:42:52.559 --> 00:43:00.150all and what a lousy I'm sorry. What what allowsy excuse is that I60300:43:00.190 --> 00:43:02.750don't want to. I don't wantto be looked at as as a negative60400:43:02.829 --> 00:43:06.469person or would right, or mychurch might, I might, there might60500:43:06.510 --> 00:43:09.550be less attendants or whatever. Youknow that that was never it's might good60600:43:09.630 --> 00:43:14.059down. That's not biblical. that'ssnot Biblical. A matter of fact,60700:43:14.179 --> 00:43:16.420Jesus, a story comes to mindin the life of Jesus and John,60800:43:16.460 --> 00:43:22.539Chapter Six. It's almost like Jesusgives out of his way defend down his60900:43:22.659 --> 00:43:25.699congregation, and this is a pointwhere Jesus says, unless you eat my61000:43:25.820 --> 00:43:30.329flesh and drink my blood, youhave no life in you. It's like61100:43:30.409 --> 00:43:34.130Jesus knew who was talking to.He was talking to Jews who had,61200:43:34.489 --> 00:43:37.449you know, abhorred pagan practices andthey would be viewing you. Eating flesh61300:43:37.489 --> 00:43:40.679and drinking blood would be a paganpractice that they would have afford. Right61400:43:40.800 --> 00:43:45.559now. Jesus is not validating thosepractices, but he is, in a61500:43:45.719 --> 00:43:51.320hyperbical way, making a point andtrying to separate out those who truly wanted61600:43:51.320 --> 00:43:55.150to to to know him and trulywanted to hear from him. He says61700:43:55.150 --> 00:43:58.309at one point, you know you'recoming to me just because you ate of61800:43:58.349 --> 00:44:00.989the bread. This is after he'dmultiplied the bread and the fish. And61900:44:01.070 --> 00:44:04.710he says, but I'm the breadthat came down from heaven. Unless you62000:44:04.750 --> 00:44:07.309eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.62100:44:07.550 --> 00:44:09.300And then so many fell away.Yeah, it says. At one point,62200:44:10.219 --> 00:44:15.579says many, many stopped following him. Yeah, and and they said62300:44:15.659 --> 00:44:17.179this is a hard saying, Lord, who can receive? So he gave62400:44:17.260 --> 00:44:21.940them a hard saying. He madeit hard for them to receive to judge62500:44:21.980 --> 00:44:24.530the motivation of their heart. Andthen, this is funny to me,62600:44:24.650 --> 00:44:29.090he looks at his disciples, thetwelve, who you know, had left62700:44:29.170 --> 00:44:31.889everything to follow him, and looksat them and says, you guys going62800:44:31.929 --> 00:44:35.969to leave to so he wasn't like, Oh, you guys gonna leave all62900:44:36.050 --> 00:44:38.400move. No, he was like, way I see it in the scripture,63000:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.760he's looking at them and saying,you guys can hit the road too63100:44:40.800 --> 00:44:44.519if you want, like this istoo tough for you, you can hit63200:44:44.559 --> 00:44:49.559the road too, because Jesus wasnot concerned about pleasing men, he was63300:44:49.639 --> 00:44:53.630concerned about obeying and pleasing his fatherin heaven and as even souls. And63400:44:53.710 --> 00:45:00.869you're not going to save souls unlessyou confront what is sick in the soul.63500:45:00.909 --> 00:45:04.670Yeah, absolutely, Sin. Yeah, and of course there can always63600:45:04.710 --> 00:45:09.059be you know, a I don'tknow, taking it too far right,63700:45:09.179 --> 00:45:13.460taking things too far, where youknow, maybe a pastor that all he63800:45:13.579 --> 00:45:15.619talks about is sin, Sin,Sin, Sin, and I think you63900:45:15.739 --> 00:45:20.300know every message. At least thisis my opinion. You should be addressing64000:45:20.420 --> 00:45:22.969sin, issues of sin and whatever, but it doesn't need to be a64100:45:23.010 --> 00:45:27.329hyper focus on sin all the time. People do need to understand the love64200:45:27.409 --> 00:45:30.730of God. People do need tounderstand the covenant that God has made with64300:45:30.929 --> 00:45:36.199man. People do need to understanda lot of truths about about God and64400:45:36.280 --> 00:45:39.599about his word. Right, soit's not just talking about sin constantly.64500:45:39.599 --> 00:45:45.400You can go overboard and the he'llfire brimstone all the time teaching you know,64600:45:45.719 --> 00:45:50.789messages about hell all the time canbe a little overwhelming for people,64700:45:50.989 --> 00:45:58.230as can be a message just callingout the wrong of abortion to women entering64800:45:58.269 --> 00:46:02.190an abortion clinic. And that istempered by good side by conclers, always64900:46:02.269 --> 00:46:07.099tempered by offers of hope and help. Yeah, especially hope, the hope65000:46:07.179 --> 00:46:13.980in Christ and the hope of actuallythe changeable resources that can help alleviate whatever65100:46:14.059 --> 00:46:16.820situation it is that they're facing.Yeah, so that's a really good point.65200:46:16.820 --> 00:46:22.329Yeah, yeah, well, youknow, the Lord just encourage every65300:46:22.369 --> 00:46:25.289pastor and every every person who isyou know, obviously you're listening to this65400:46:25.449 --> 00:46:29.289podcast because this issue is near anddear to your heart. And I know65500:46:29.369 --> 00:46:31.690there's some because I hear a lotof times my pastor is not talking about65600:46:31.690 --> 00:46:36.440this thing, pastors not addressing theissue. Ye, I'll say pray for65700:46:36.519 --> 00:46:39.559your pastor. Yeah, because thereis some pressure here and there is temptation65800:46:39.840 --> 00:46:46.150to not address this issue at allor as often as you ought to because65900:46:46.190 --> 00:46:50.989of some of these these things youknow, and they're at all completely invalid.66000:46:51.030 --> 00:46:54.269Some of them pretty miserable excuses.But pray for your pastor and,66100:46:54.789 --> 00:46:59.190you know, talk to him,like I said earlier, get some articles,66200:46:59.349 --> 00:47:04.099print out some articles, email somearticles, some messages where pastors talking66300:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.340about it. It's cleaning good stuffout there. Yeah, you can email66400:47:07.420 --> 00:47:10.179us, you can email me andI'll try to shoot over some some videos66500:47:10.219 --> 00:47:15.250your away from Youtube or whatever.That could encourage anybody who's listening to and66600:47:15.650 --> 00:47:20.369something you can share with your pastor. Again, but pray for your pastor,66700:47:21.329 --> 00:47:25.170encourage your pastor in this area andit maybe you can be that point66800:47:25.250 --> 00:47:30.000person within your congregation who, that'sright, yeah, who makes those connections66900:47:30.079 --> 00:47:35.280with sidewalk counseling ministries, with pregnancyresource center ministries or whatever that is.67000:47:36.320 --> 00:47:37.679But with that, yeah, Ithink we ought to rep this thing up.67100:47:37.679 --> 00:47:40.760Yeah, you think? Yeah,yeah, so we appreciate those who67200:47:40.800 --> 00:47:45.670do listen and, as we alland as we always do, encourage you67300:47:45.710 --> 00:47:49.230to contact us. Reach out tome. D Parks at cities cities in67400:47:49.269 --> 00:47:53.070the number four lifecom and V cassieOrg at cities for lifecom. If you67500:47:53.110 --> 00:47:58.780want to connect with Vicki, andmaybe you know you are thinking about starting67600:47:58.860 --> 00:48:01.860a sidewalk counseling ministry in your localcongregation. You're not from our area,67700:48:01.940 --> 00:48:06.579so you can't connect with us ascities for life, but you can start67800:48:06.579 --> 00:48:09.739out of your own congregation a sidewalkcounseling ministry. That's what the sidewalks for67900:48:09.820 --> 00:48:15.570life website is all about. WWWdot sidewalks, the number four lifecom.68000:48:15.170 --> 00:48:20.449It's there to equip and to encourageand of course we're here. You can68100:48:20.489 --> 00:48:22.730email us and we'll do the bestwe can to encourage you and maybe connect68200:48:22.730 --> 00:48:25.849you with others who in your areawho are doing there's actually a map on68300:48:25.889 --> 00:48:30.480that website. We can connect withother sidewalk counselors that are not necessarily people68400:48:30.519 --> 00:48:31.800that we know. They've just somehow, I don't know how we got there,68500:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.400information, put it on a mapand you can search your area.68600:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.719But but those resources, that resourcesthere to encourage you, guys, and68700:48:38.880 --> 00:48:43.630this podcast is here to encourage you, guys, and we do appreciate you68800:48:44.389 --> 00:48:54.269listening to us and we look forwardto talking again soon. Give for love,68900:48:58.980 --> 00:49:07.420give me our loft for gratitude.I know it will cost me my69000:49:07.780 --> 00:49:15.170life. Nothing's too precious in someyou