Victim of Rape - Mock Session

0:02 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. This episode we're going to play for you and then critique a video that we recorded of a mock session between Vicky and one of our counselors. They pretended to be a victim of rape. We believe this will be helpful and equipping to you, so stay tuned. I felt show passish touch your welcome to the Gospel centered pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys joining us and, as always, appreciate you guys sharing this podcast on social media or whatever outlets that you have. Email, maybe even snail mail. Write someone to let her and tell them. Does anyone do that anymore? They don't come. I'm just wasting my breath on that one, but let people know as best you can that they can listen to the Gospel centered pro life podcast. Leave us a review. We would love to hear what you think about this podcast. We'd also love to hear some suggestions that you have of things that we can cover. We why we do a lot of the episodes that we do. We have people send us an email, say something on social media or just in a conversation. Hey, have you guys covered this? And if we haven't, we do. Yep, and sometimes we cover subjects a couple of times from different angles. Right, I'm before this podcast we're going to cover a subject that we hear a lot, at least get a lot of people suggesting that we do podcast episodes about

1:37 this, and it's something that you deal with, or could deal with, on a regular basis if you're minister in front of an abortion center. Yeah, so we cover subjects from different angles and this subject is going to be dealing with women who are victims of rape. We covered, I guess, in some months ago and one of our hard cases, because we went through how to deal with these different hard cases that you face, and rape is probably the most common hardcase that you'll face at the abortion center. As far as an objection to or an excuse. I don't want to I don't like to use the word excuse, but that's the best where I can think of right now for women going into the abortion center. That's like the hard cases that kind of stifle us and make us like, Oh, what do I say in this? That's the most common problem. So we did a case study of a young lady that we encountered actually at little tribe abortion center and we kind of talk through she was a victim of rape. It didn't really come out until later on, as we built a relationship with her, that she was a victim of rape. So it's a different dynamic there. In this episode we're actually going to like like we did a couple of weeks ago we played for you a mock session of Vicky and Maddie pretending maddie was the abortion mind of Mom Vicky was the counselor and, if you guys remember, we just kind of played that, we critiqued it, we said what were some of the good things? Were some of the things that could have been done better? So we're going to do that in this episode. We're going to play for you, it's about eight minutes or so of a mock session.

3:01 So I think just that in itself would be really equipping for you guys. But then afterwards we're going to say, Hey, what are some of the things that we're done right? What are some of the things that Vicky royally screwed up on? And let's make fun of her for those things, of course. Yeah, and we're going to have fun now we're going to train you. Guess that's the whole point of all of this stuff. Yeah, and also want to note that, just like the other mock session that we did, this one was kind of done off the cuff, on the fly and sort of on purpose. Right. We could not practice, we did not have a script. On purpose. Yeah, and so the dynamic is likely going to be a little different because it's not a real mock session, or it's not a real it's a real mock session, it's not a real recorded session. So the flow would likely go a little different, the interaction would likely be a little different, the objections could be a little different.

3:55 But this is just kind of a general framework or some of the things you might say, some of the ways that you might react or shouldn't react to a woman. And so we'll play this for you, guys. We'll talk about it, it'll be equipping, it'll be encouraging and hopefully you'll be blessed and Jesus will be glorified. Oh, hey, there, hey there, my name is Vickie. Can Can I talk with you just just for a moment? Its in, I know. Are you on the way into the women's center? Yeah, well, let me give you this. My Name and my number is on the back here and and we're here offering hope and help. I just want to know what what's like, the big thing that's sending you into this place. Well, I was raped. So I oh, I am so sorry. Is the the man who did this?

4:50 Is He behind bars? No, no, he's not. So they haven't caught him yet. Or what? It's a family member. It's a family member. Good grief. So I want you to know right off hand if if your family is hesitant to pursue prosecution, and that is not unusual, if that families feel that way. But remember you might not be the last one that he does that too, and it is an act of kindness to others to to bring that man to justice. God is a god of Justice and he would not have any of US turn the other cheek to that kind of a violation. But there are groups here in Charlotte that could help you. Like have you contacted any of the domestic violent organizations? No, I haven't. Kind of scared to do that. I'm sure you are, but but let me just let you know that on the back here. I think we have that resource and if we don't, well, they're sex trafficking.

5:47 If we don't, I can get you the resource for domestic violence and there's there's in the Charlotte area there's also a group that helps, helps to find a safe place for you and even can help you to provide to provide legal counsel to help you. So I want to just start with that. Do you know how far along you are? No, I don't. You don't know. Well, do you know that if you've missed your period? I assume you have. Right, you've missed your period. You know that your baby's heart is already beating, already as really as seventeen days and as early as six weeks, your little baby already has detectable brain waves. So I just want you to know it. Do you believe in God? Yeah, yeah, and so has that caused any conflict thinking about I know this is terrible, terrible situation, but what is your heart tell you? God would have you do? Well, I just every day I'm pregnant I'm going to be thinking about this trauma and I think God understands that and he has to understand the like. That's incredibly hard on me and yeah, I just I just want to be done with it. Yeah, you know, I hear you, I get it. I understand that you don't want to remember that trauma at all and every day of your pregnancy. You're telling me that's what your focus will be. But you know what, let me let me read you a verse before we go any further on. You said you believe in God. I just want to read you this first. It's from from Second Timothy Six. For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift

7:19 of God, which is you, through the lane on of my hands, for the spirit of God does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and selfdiscipline. In other words, we don't have a spirit of fear before God. And I know that there's this fear that this is what's going to be in your heart. But I've studied research that looks at rape, and do you know that most of the women who keep their baby, which is most victims of rape? I don't know if you know that, but seventy percent of rape victims keep their child, and of the thirty percent who go and have an abortion, seventy eight percent of them regret it.

8:05 But of the seventy percent that keep their baby, how many do you think regret keeping that child? I couldn't imagine. I mean maybe once they had it. I just feel like every day that I looked at my child that it would be just like remembering the trauma that everything that happened as you're as you're looking at that baby. As a matter of fact, what overwhelmingly the videos on Youtube, of which there are many, of rape victims, the only positive experience or memory that comes out of that rape, horrific act is the birth and the beauty of that precious life. So, even though I understand totally where you're coming from, it it yeah, I know that it's horrible, but think about this, the act of rape, that was a violent act against an innocent human being, right, you, right, right.

9:11 What do you think abortion is? It's a violent act against an innocent victim, that that child didn't cause the rape or any of your situation. The child is innocent and the child, by all human beings, is made in the image of God. The child is not the rapist. The child shares your DNA and and God has created that life. God is the one that creates all life. So I'm not saying God wanted the rate. That is clear. That that is sin, but in any other area of your life, would you deal with sin? And I know it's not your own sin, but would you deal with sin by doing something that grieves and is rebelling against God and really a greater sin the murder of an innocent child?

10:09 I don't know, I just I see what you're saying and it's it is convicting, but it's just like I just wanted all to be over, like it's right. It's so much to think about, so much hurt and scary. Yeah, yeah, and I understand one in it all over, but I just would urge you to look at some of those testimonies of rape victims that you can find on the Internet, and I can send you even the link to the study I'm talking about, because it's not all over. When the baby is killed, then there's this new trauma their face. Can I encourage you to come and look at your baby on a mobile ultrasound unit, or even I there's a pregnancy resource center right near here. I would love to just bring you over there and let you look at your baby before you make this decision. I think, I think I just need to think about it for a while. Andy Smer time. Okay, but I'll keep this, can you? I would like you to keep that in. My Name and number is on the back here and you can call me at any time.

11:13 But would it be okay if I pray give you before before you go in there? For sure. Dear father, Lord, I'm sorry, what was your name again? Sarah, Sarah. Dear father, Lord, I pray for Sarah. I know that this is horrific what she's going through, and I see the sorrow and the despair and what happened to her was terrible, a violent act against an innocent human being. But, Lord, I pray convict Sarah, that the last thing she wants to do is to go on and do a violent act against her baby. So I pray, like in that verse I read, Give Her a spirit of strength, not of fear. Give her not a spirit of timidity, but of trust and face than you and we will help her, father, help convict her heart that she is not alone, we will walk alongside her through this, we will help link her with the resources that can help her and we will be there for her. But, most importantly, father, you are always there and you promise you are a refuge and a strength and I pray that Sarah puts her trust and her faith in that, not in the evil act of abortion, which I know she doesn't really want to do. We are praying in the name of Jesus Christ. Are for Amen. Sarah. I'm praying for you. I appreciate thank you. By okay, so we hoop. That

12:46 was a blessing. And is there like, do you have the video, because that was that was originally a video, right the gout. You have that posted somewhere now? Okay, not yet. All right, so we won't have that available for you guys for video, but you can go back and listen to that audio is much as you want to. Yeah, but let's talk about some of the things that were that were done in that video. As you're right, a. Did you critique yourself? Okay, well, I have two lists. I have what were the good things that the counselor me did and what were the bad things? And well, there are double good things, good things, double the good things and then the battery bad thing might be the opposite on your list. Okay, I don't know.

13:31 But so so maybe let's start just back and forth with with kind of what we're some of the good things. So the first thing that and and I kind of just went in order of how the video preceded, which I think is what you did too. So the I gave the information to her right away. I got the literature in her hand right away. Was the first thing I did. Hey, my name is Vicky, you're heading to the abortion center, asked the question and then got the information in her hand. Yeah, so that's that's key. That's in and all of our cases. That's really what we would advise you make sure you do immediately get the information in their hands right absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, because you might lose them in any point in any of these conversations that we have. For whatever reason, you might lose her attention completely. A pro abortion person might come along and butt into the situation. At least you get something into her hand right whatever reason, she might get just kind of lured into the abortion sent yeah, so you want to get that information on their hand right away.

14:35 And that made me think of something else when you said that you kind of want to let your conversation proceed in order of priority because of that very dynamic, you could lose her at any minute. So get the important things out pretty much as soon as you can, if possible. So the second thing that happened was I asked her the major obstacles. Yeah, which is actually something that you do, and when you told me that you did that, I thought you know that. However, you phrased it that you know, what's the one thing? I think you say, what's the one thing that if I could remove that you would you would not be considering an abortion. I think that's a really, really good thing to start with. Yeah, so, in other words, ask the major obstacle that that's really important.

15:22 You piggyback off of that, Right. Yeah, so, I mean one of the things I'll say is I'll word it differently every time. I'll say, if there's one thing, because there's likely a bunch of stuff going on in your life, but there's one thing that I could promise you we could take care of right now, right. What would be that one thing? Because I really do want to get to what's that thing on the forefront of her mind that makes her feel like abortion is an option for her right and so it could be a lot of times it's financial stuff, it's relational stuff and from time to time it might be like in this situation right, right, and that now that's not something that obviously, we can provide a resource in the same way that we provide resources that will make something go away.

16:04 Problem that nothing's going to make that rape go away. Yeah, exactly. It is a little bit different. But as soon as as soon as she said that, what I hoped that I conveyed, I think I did immediately, was to express compassion, sorrow. Yeah, show interest, ask about is is their justice? Yeah, is this guy behind bar orse? Yeah, I mean, I would say, the most important thing in this situation, in any other of the hard cases, any of the situations just in general, right, but especially in these hard cases, identifying with their pain. Yes, not marginalizing their pain. Like I break down that word compassion.

16:45 Yeah, what it means is it means with calm, is with and passion, is actually suffering. Right. So you want to suffer with them, in their pain, feel their pain. It's real to them, especially in this situation where she's been violated. Yeah, we want identify with that. Now, I do say this, and and how do I say this without so we don't want to marginalize people's pain and we don't want to accuse them of lying. Okay, so right, off the bad. We don't want to say all you're lying. Only one percent of all abortions are result of rape or whatever. Yeah, but do keep in the back of your mind. This is why I'll ask certain questions typically in those situations to really get to is that the case? Is She really a victim of rape, or is she just putting this out there to make me feel bad for talking to her? Because sometimes people will do that. Yeah, yeah, make you. They want to take some of the guilt that they're feeling and put it back on you, and so they think if, well, I'm a victim of rape, he'll feel bad for telling me not to have the abortion.

17:42 Yeah, so you can keep that in the back of your mind, that sometimes they could be lying to you. But even if that's the case, you don't want to say, HAH, you're lying, there's no way, and then give them statistics to prove that they're lying. You do want identify with their pain, but you do also want to ask questions. It provoke as much as you can. You're not going to rip open a wound, you don't want to try to do that, but as much as you can to get them they get them talking and to discern and and you know, I think actually, and this was kind of by accident, but but the questions I did ask about the the rape best, yeah, and whether he was behind bars and everything. Ultimately she says it was a family member.

18:25 Obviously I knew she wasn't really rape. She's she's acting this out, but had that been an actual mom those responsive would have tipped me off. I think that this was honestly a rape, that that this was sincerely a rape. And and you're right that often by asking questions it will reveal whether it is honestly an actual rape. Yeah, yeah, now I do want to say that you can come across in asking that question, because the way that you ask it, and I get it's not a real life scenario, so it probably wouldn't have been asked like that, but the way you ask it was almost like immediate right. It's like Oh, really, well, is he in Bard? He's he behind bars? Yeah, yeah, I would probably wield that back a little bit and I would identify with her pain a little more and I would try to understand what she's feeling a little more, yeah, than just to kind of go right after the justice thing.

19:15 Yeah, not that we shouldn't go after that, not that we shouldn't be a I mean ultimately, that that's an honest and obvious question. If you were a victim of rape, right, that dude out to be behind bars. Yeah, and I might actually word it like that rather than rather than trying to throw it back on her, like did you do what you need to do to get that guy locked up? Yeah, not that it's like was justice served? Right, because if she's genuinely here's my thinking as a man that believes that men are supposed to be protectors and guardians, my thinking is she's a victim of rape, that dirt bag needs to be behind bars, right, and like, what can I do to make sure justices s yeah, so I'm going to identify with her pain, I'm going to help.

19:59 I'm going to help, I guess in that question. Is He behind bars? What I want to provoke is in her that sense of justice exactly. That's a really good point and that was where God was brought into the discussion. God is a god of justice, and that's a double question for her. It's pointing to her circumstances, but it's also hoping that a part of her is recognizing what she's about to do that that baby, to that baby is not justice. Yeah, to your point, also, I didn't have at my fingertip. This was on my bad list. I didn't have at my fingertip the name or it just eluded me. I couldn't remember the name of Safe Alliance, which, which would have been the they have a safe house, they have lawyers that will that will help women who are victims of sexual crimes for free. I didn't have that at my fingertips. It would really be a good idea if, in any wherever you are counseling, if there is some sort of a group that will help victims of rape, it's good to have that information. Yeah, and be able to give her that phone number and everything. I told her I would look it up, but and I actually thought that it might have been on our literature and it wasn't, which surprised me. So, you know, rookie mistake. I should have known that. I should have known what what our literature had.

21:15 Yeah, but but in retrospect I wish I had had that that I that I could have told her, hey, here's an organization that will help you. Yeah, and that's also being compassionate. You know, saying Hey, we've got this group that could help you through through your struggles. So so the next thing I wrote down was that I did offer tangible help. I talked about domestic violence. But on the bad side, I didn't really have that resource right at my fingertip. Yeah, yeah, one of the things you can do for those things these days, of course, is Google it. Right, not bad. It'd be better if you had some kind of piece of literature, if you had some kind of number handily available, readily available, right, but if you have to google it, then Google it.

22:00 Yeah, yeah, and help point them to resources. I think that is an important thing that you did in that back and forth. Yes, point her to resource to end, but the resources I had. That as a good and a bad also, because the the resources that I pointed her to were all about the rape and and helping to get just as protection, legal help if necessary. For the rape experts, that would counsel what to do with a family member, which is difficult for us. We're not trained counselors in in you know, trained to deal with rape victims necessarily. Yeah, but but what I didn't mention, if you think back to the entire interaction, were other resources. I didn't talk about baby showers, I didn't talk about a mentor, I didn't talk about she did not need to feel alone in all of this. Yeah, normally I do. I was really focusing on what are the things specific to a rape victim, but I think had it been a real life situation, those are things I hope I would have done, and I normally do. Yeah, didn't in this case, but I do want to make sure people listening. No, I think that was a shortcoming in this interaction. I would that's something that should have been mentioned, that there were other sources of help. Yeah, because she's in and unplanned pregnancy. Yeah, so all those other resources that we have really could become very important. Yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the things is to that I think we have to be careful not to do, is just flood their minds with so many things. Yeah, and I would see

23:36 those resources, I would be talking about those resources, but I would try to keep it around. That's why I ask, when I'm talking to an abortion minded mom or dad at the abortions interness, why I ask what is that? One thing right, it's the reason why you came here and I want to focus on that. Thing and talk around that thing as a subject and not talk about everything else under the sun, because I can flood their minds. Again, we're talking about women that are full of fear, and especially a woman who's a victim of rape. Right she's got a lot of stuff going on her mind. She's got a lot of things that she's struggling with, a lot of emotions, a lot of just yeah, all kinds of stuff going on. So we can't float her with too much, since we're talking about baby showers and we're talking about mentoring and we're talking about this and that. So maybe it was real it was good that I did that.

24:22 Well, the other thing, I didn't do much of that. I also do a lot of when in a normal interaction. As I didn't talk much about baby development because exactly the point you're making. That's not probably what's going to be what sways her heart right now. It I mentioned it. I did mention it. I think I mentioned the heartbeat and brain waves and I think that's all I mentioned because I wanted to humanize the child. That is very important, you know, rape victim, that that child be humanized. But but again, I I didn't want that to be the main focus, because she's struggling with a devastating violent act against her and I wanted to use that to bring her to the idea of the violent act against her child and the parallel. Yeah, and hope that that might make an impact on her. Yeah, another thing that help me, help me talk through this, okay, because I think this is good, but also think it can be just a lot of information, and that's pointing to the stats, right, the statistics. So you pointed to that statistic, which we've talked about before, that seventy percent of the women that are victims of rape, they get pregnant, choose to keep their child. Right, seventy eight percent of those who do that don't regret it. No, no, none of them are. Okay, not, none regret. When you're thirty percent, who

25:52 I'm getting lost in the and the thirty percent who choose abortion, most of them regret. At the overwhelming majority regret it. Okay, and it and I totally get your point and I think it's a very valid thing to consider. Yeah, being careful about too many statistics. I do often quote that one because it's so counterintuitive. Yeah, it's not what they're thinking. And she she actually was genuinely surprised when she heard that when. So she was play acting, but I don't think she'd ever heard that statistic before and she said, Oh wow, and that was my response when I read that. That research. So, but I do think, yeah, you start quoting statistics, you start to sound like a professor instead of a counselor who is yeah, you know, identifying with with them. Is that? That's kind of your that's kind of what I'm thinking. But, like I said, I said help me with this, because I'm not exactly sure, because I think statistics do help. I think you can. You can, I guess, generalize. You can say most women who get pregnant as a result of rape don't have an abortion. Did you know that? Yeah, you don't have to put the numbers out there, I guess. Yeah, but that's it. That's that's true. Most women, and of the women that do get pregnant as a result of rape that keep their baby. None of them that we've seen in statistics have regretted. That desit right. So, even though you've got some stuff going on in your heart, in your mind right now and you're thinking I might regret keeping this child, I can just tell

27:23 you statistically you won't write. Your baby is going to be a blessing to you. Your baby, I'm going to use terms that are going to kind of pull on the heartstrings. Your baby is going to be the lighted into this tunnel that you right now. Yeah, exactly. That's a great way of saying that. She mentioning God. Bringing God into the equation as soon as as possible is always, I believe, critical, where a Gospel centered, Yep Ministry and the any true heart change is never going to happen without the Gospel. Additionally, she has been through a horrific trauma, yeah, to her soul, her spirit, and you know, I imagine many rape victims do ask themselves, where was God? Yeah, I'm I'm innocent in this. Where was God while this was happening? So bringing God quickly into the discussion is really important. Yeah, and and asking if there is any first, does she believe, and if there's any conflict in our heart.

28:26 And I think both of those questions are very good counseling techniques and both should be asked any, any, anyone you counsel. Yeah, but but especially in a rape victim, because I have encountered women who are angry at God. Yeah, absolutely, and it would be good to address that. Yeah, you know God, God, didn't want that rape to happen. This is the result of sin. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And course you did that very well in this conversation. Bringing got into the equation by asking the question do you believe in God? Thinks a good way to do it right, and then asking can I share a scripture with you? And there you yeah, jumped right into the scripture. That you should and I don't know if that was the ideal scripture. That was one of my bad things.

29:06 I don't know if it was the ideal scripture. I had just read it that day. It that morning on the side. Look, I happen to have it, my Bible opened. That, by the way, something I want you to know, Daniel, because directly from you. Yeah, did you notice I had my Bible? Didn't notice? I no longer look it up on the phone. Actually, it was because a pro abortion person shamed me. She asked me for the reference for one of the things I quoted and I couldn't. I couldn't remember it, and I said, well, let me look it up for you, and I grabbed my phone and said, well, where's Your Bible? And I was so convicted by that the opposition coming. So I wrote that as one of the things that are a good thing. Have Your Bible with you, yeah, and have have something underlined, have something marked in Your Bible, have a tab, yeah, something where you can get immediately to an appropriate verse and read it to her. Yeah, yeah, there is powers going to I mean you spoke about fear, right, he's afraid. Yeah, and you God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. Right, I think it's certainly inappropriate scripture. Yeah, there can be some others that you could bring up. Yeah, but God's word doesn't return void. So using the word of God is, in any of these situations, very powerful and important to do. Yeah, one of the things that I wrote as a bad though, was while in that is, somewhere in that discussion of God, she said, yeah, but God will understand.

30:26 Yeah, I did not jump on that. I normally do. Again, there's so many things that you wish you could say and sometimes you just plainly can't. You'd rust enough time, but Um, but we do usually want to kind of dispel that idea that because you're struggling and now you're considering killing your child. Claiming God's forgiveness or understanding is not what, where God would have you go. Yeah, absolutely, and and so. But I didn't, and maybe I should have, but Um, but I did restate what what she was saying then and and I thought that's another counseling technique that, I think, show someone that they're being heard. So I repeated what she was saying about her concerns about being pregnant every day thinking about the rape, and then restated what she said about seeing the baby. And basically she would be looking in her mind, she's thinking she's going to be looking at the rapist and thinking of the rapist every day. And that's where I bring in, and this is I think, of the all the things I've done with rape victims, this, I think, is the single most powerful is when ask them was rape a violent action against innocent victim, and of course they always say as and then asking them the question, what do you think an abortion is? Yeah, and that I guess in some ways maybe that

32:00 could be considered too harsh. Right and maybe, but a child's life is on the line and it's true, and I think if you ask I always ask it carefully. My tone is I'm very conscious of am I saying this gently? Yeah, and with empathy, not only towards what happened to her but what she is considering to doing to her own baby. Yeah. Yeah, I think is best we can in these situations when we get into those hard trees, because the reality is what would be happening if she was going through with an abortion would be her child suffering for the sins of his father.

32:45 Yes, and that's unjust. Yeah, and that is abortion is act of violence committed against an innocent person, just like rape is. Yeah, bringing that truth to bear, I think is important. But to me, at that point of the conversation we need to do the best we can to help her to understand and basically, in her mind, for there to be no doubt that we care about her. There has to be no doubt that we're concerned about her, that we're not just after her keeping her baby right, and I think you know, you use some of these things that we talked about. Listening to her, yeah, asking questions, asking questions, sharing resources. Yeah, the concern for her well being and all that stuff can be evident in the way that we talked to her and the things that we offer to her. Yeah, then we can introduce, yeah, kind of the the hard truths that need to be introduced, right, because those truths do need to be introduced. Yeah, this notion, and I think you went after this pretty good. Then she's, you know, kind of had this mentality that I just want this to be all over with. Right, I don't really think that was a good point when you responded at some point, because she said that actually a couple times. She did. I just want this to be all over with, and that is the mentality of victim of rap yeah, for sure, and I can understand that. I just want this to be all over with. Yep. But you countered with well, abortion is not necessarily going to mean that this is all over with.

34:10 Hey, it might just be the beginning up the nightmares, because you'll you will relive trauma, but in a different way. It's a new trauma. You have just perpetrated trauma on another innocent human being. Yeah. So, and I do think that your tone and the look on your face and all of that stuff can convey to her a genuine compassion. Yeah, even when you're giving these hard trees and we need to be intentional about that. Right, we do. Your tone sets the tone, as you always say, and that is that is so true. Then I think it at that point I felt that she was with me enough to offer the ultrasound. Up to that point I wouldn't have offered the ultrasound that I don't think it would have been appropriate even maybe maybe you disagree, but I really felt like just showing her I cared, giving some of our three talk talking points, especially God. Then the little story that I gave at the end, and at that point offered the ultrasound and she turned it down. Yeah, which happens, you know. Well, yeah, we wanted to be realistic this.

35:22 Actually, this scenario was one I actually encountered with our last batch of sidewalk missionaries to two times ago, when we had sidewalk missionaries training with us, the national missionaries, and a woman who had been raped along with her five year old daughter stopped and this was honestly, very similar to the conversation that I had. That was truly tragic. Yeah, I mean it's all tragic, it's all tragic. Rape is always a tragedy and a horror. But but I knew that that woman, it ended. I did everything a pretty much like I did this, where there are things I could have improved on, I'm sure, but she still went in right, and I think don't don't be surprised by that. And so Maddie and I discussed it and said, hey, we wanted to be real, as realistic women are going to go in. Yeah, they they are. Still some will change their minds, but when they don't, don't think it's all over. Right. And that final piece was praying her. Yeah, yeah, and that's an important piece. There comes a point when you've said everything that can be said and you can feel their beginning, because once they start to pull away from you and pull away from the conversation, yeah, you continueing to talk, you're only going to make them angry, right, and you don't want to get to that point where the just angry and then they've gotten that moment of anger,

36:52 their justification to have an abortion right and just to walk in there. You've become the problem instead of the act probable problem. Yeah, right. One thing I did want to mention before you prayed, and I think you did this actually a couple times through this conversation. You talked about testimonies and you talk about how you can go on Youtube and you can see these testimonies. There's testimonies, they are out there. Testimonies are a powerful way to help people understand Bible says. We overcome him, Satan, by the blood of the lamb, in the word of our testimony, testimony. These are powerful. Yeah, testimonies. I mean, maybe you have a personal testimony in this area. I'm not very many people do. As far as being a victim of rape and having a child in the blessing of that child is you. Maybe those who are listening have that in your past. Quite likely you don't. Maybe you know someone that does. But even if you don't know someone that does, you can go on Youtube and you can watch these testimonies and sharing these testimonies or pointing people, like you did, Vicki, in this in this scenario, to those testimonies to show that, yes, you're in a difficult situation, but listen, God has been faithful to other people and he'll be faithful to you. So I didn't want to miss that in any of these hard cases we should share testimonies of God's faithfulness. We what shot has done, yes, and other people's lives. Yeah, and I actually wrote it down as one of the negatives is I wish I had had a rape victims testimony on my phone ready to go, yeah, in my reminders or notes or something, so that I could just click on that

38:23 and show her, because she's going to go in at this point. You know, often at this point of your discussion, you kind of have a sense. is she going to go in or she going to let me take her over to the ultrasound right, and so you do want to present everything you think you can that might encourage that choice for life. And since testimonies are so powerful, I really did wish I had one of those. I don't. I should get one on my phone. Yeah, because this I counter this often enough that it would be a valuable thing to have right at my fingertip. Yeah, you know, I would say be great to have it your fingertips. My guess would be she's probably not going to stand there and watch. She might not, unless it is short line. Something would have to be pretty short, right. If you can just have it on the top of your mind, tip of your tongue to share that testimony, that could be helpful. Yeah, but again, like you mentioned, kind of circle back around with the whole prey thing. You prayed with her and really, what we we do often, as you pray at her, got to help pray, that you help her to see right that this is not the right thing to do, that we can help her, and that sort of thing. So you're praying at her, you're obviously you're praying, you're appealing to God, right, because he's the one that has to open her heart and convince her to do the right thing. Yeah, but you are supporting everything that you just said previously in prayer, right, you're petitioning the Lord. Yeah, and I definitely was thinking of that, kind of restating all the main points I had made when I was speaking to her, restate

39:57 them in the prayer. So that that's that's as she's entering that abortion center, those are the last things on our mind. Yeah. So, all in all, went pretty well. Yeah, Jee's life, at least not. We don't know. Maybe she did. Yeah. Well, in all of these things, we are planting seats and we are watering seats. I would encourage you guys with that. These situations are very difficult and when you've got a woman who's a victim of rape or you've got a woman who's dealing with what ever many of these hard cases might be. It is tough and we can really beat ourselves up, yes, about what we didn't say. Well, we did say what. We could have said better. And listen, you can always say things better, you can always say more, you can always cover different subjects. You can. There's always these questions of what if I would have said this, what if I'd have said that? You just got to trust God. You just gotta think. I've said before, if I could give you one principle of dealing with hard cases, in one principle alone, dealing with any of these cases, hard cases, easy cases, whatever, that single principle would be, walk with God. Yeah, walk with God. We can give you general principles. We try to do that. We try to make ourselves like the example of what not to do and what to do in some sense, but at the end of the day you've got to be walking with the Lord. But it's the Holy Spirit knows a whole lot more than we ever will. Yeah, even though we've been doing this for a while, the Holy Spirit e's eternal. He knows the hearts of men and women. He knows what needs to be said in the moment. So walk with him. Be I mean that scripture you shared.

41:30 Maybe that was exactly what she needed to hear. Of that was a real situation in that moment. Maybe she was just reading that scripture this morning herself. You never know. So would encourage you guys. Yeah, listen to these podcasts and take all the information in, but, most importantly, walk with the Lord in those moments when you're encountering these hard situations. Be Praying under your breath to the Lord, like Lord honey, wisdom in this situation. He can of it. Yeah, so with that, I think we are done with this episode. Yeah, feel good about that. Yeah, I feel pretty good about it. I get an a, I think right. A for this would be be plose. Okay, yeah, and now you deep great. So, guys, we do appreciate you guys listening and, as we started out, as we always say, we appreciate you guys sharing this podcast, reaching out to us. You can reach me, Daniel at Love Life Dot Org. You can reach her, Vicky at Love Life Dot Org. If you have questions, comments, things like that. We'd certainly love to answer those if we're able. And again, please share this podcast with people don't neglect us in the reviews. Give us some good reviews.

42:35 We appreciate that. And until next time, God, bless God, bless y'all. Our love for love. Give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you