The Danger of Incrementalism in the Battle to End Abortion

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me Lord. I am welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast and this episode we're going to talk with the pioneer from the pro life movement, Flip Benham, about the problem of incrementalism and trying to end abortion. This is an important topic, so please stick with us. I felt show passis touch your heart. All right. Well, welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Have with me today Flip Benham, who is a pioneer in Pro Life Ministry and just Gospel Preaching, and I wanted him to come and talk about sort of the controversy, I guess, has been in the pro life movement, even modern abolitionist movement, thing about incrementalism and immediatism, these sort of terms that maybe some people that are listening or watching have no clue what these even mean. So let's first define those terms. What is immediatism and what is incrementalism? Maybe start with income incrementalism first, if you if you will.

1:10 INCREMENTALISM is simply you'll find it in genesis chapter one and chat, and I excuse me, a genesis chapter three is where you really see it, where the serpent comes up in to tempt Adam, but he's going to get to Adam through eve, okay, and so Adams sits back. That's what men do. And let's Eve. God had given specific instructions to to Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Yeah, and Adam understood it and it was Adam's duty to tell that to eve. But as eve gets close to this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, there is a serpent and that serpent begins right off the bat. And Genesis chapter three, verse one. Did God really say? Yeah, incrementally begins to break down. Dick out. Really say that? Does he really mean that? And he and that's how he breaks into a city, that's how he breaks into a person, that's how he breaks into a nation.

2:14 Incremental steps, he slithers and he dislike a python. He can almost hit that python almost hypnotizes if you've ever seen that a national geographic movie where you've got a python on a tree and a monkey sitting there going when pointing in, and yet the monkey doesn't move and the python out. This is over a period of time and and and the python just slowly but surely, and then he gets around the monkey and he kills the Monkey East. The monkey had could have gotten away a bazillion times, but didn't because this python got and just and just slowly took him out. No, if you get a man goose and you put him with a python, there's a whole different story.

2:57 That Mon Goose is going out to kill that snake. That's it. That's just the way it is. That's the battle. Adam should have been there. He knew, he knew that she was not to eat. So show he incrementally takes things away from us. So that's how do we go when we're talking about the issue of abortion and we're talking about incrementalism, sort of what you're saying is, and I think this is what people need to get, is that an incremental approach to ending abortion as almost using the devil's tactics, like it's devil coasically. Okay, that using the tactics of the devil rather than God's word. Okay, and so that's, of course, you know, Gospel Center pro life, that the focus of this podcast is, you know, talking about pro life stuff, talking about abortion and light of the Gospel, the truth of God's word, the impact that God's word has on a human heart rather than our you know, even medical facts, all this stuff, that stuff that can be good. It's ultimate. It's God's word that changes the heart. And and what you're saying is it's God's word that wins this battle. It's God's it's obedience to what God is saying is word. So walk through kind of how that works and how Christians can sort of fall for that trap. As far as incrementalism, mean, you just practically speaking, had a conversation with the Christian this morning about, you know, is it a bad thing that legislation is passed that will limit abortions at a certain you know, at a certain stage? And in my mind I'm thinking it's not a bad I mean, if a baby saved because they pass some incremental thing, I don't put it a whole lot of thought of

4:27 this. This of a evn't any too and in anyway. So it's so sort of correct and understanding. And well, let me just go back now. So I we're talking about to people and to and two nations. This is how the devil works. He doesn't change. Ever, this is what he does. Slowly but surely, he begins to suck you and he begins to break down and he starts always with did God really say? He tells this book into question. So and one, nineteen sixty two we had a supreme court decision. I'll just give you some Supreme Court decission. Nineteen Sixty two supreme court decision called angle versus fatal and angle versus fatalel it removed prayer from school, slowly but surely. In nineteen sixty three there was another supreme court case called Abington versus Shimp and in that one they removed Bible reading from school. Well, so you remove God from school, you see, slowly but sure. Yeah, we don't do it right away. Yeah, that devil doesn't show up with horns and a pitchfork and a red you know.

5:30 Yeah, he's just incrementally saying, though, these things are right, because isn't there a separation between Church and state? And and uses that argument. Did God really say? So, let's just keep that out of the public school. Well, when you remove God from the Public School, when he's expelled from school, banished from the schoolyard, he's replaced with all sorts of other things, and so we get this whole breakdown of morals and then we now we're into the S and we're into free sex, were into everything else that you could possibly imagine. And I'm Januaries twenty two, one thousand nine hundred and seventy three. The Supreme Court comes up with another decision called roll versus Wade. Roll versus Wade says, well, look, if you're having sex like this and you, if you're having sex like animals, are going to have sex with anything that's warm, then what's going to happen? Well, you're probably going to get some babies. I don't care what kind of contraceptive you use, they're probably going to be babies produced, and indeed there were. So how do we solve this problem? Well, it tells us in the Bible that all who hate me love death. Yeah, that's what it says in proverbs, Chapter Eight, verse Thirty Six. But all who hate me love death. Death becomes the answer to everything. So, if you're pregnant, what we what we did? The Supreme Court just opened up the door to know. Now abortion. You see how the devil came in six thousand one hundred and sixty two, and we see and we see all of this stuff going on. Daniel, I'm going to have to shut this thing off. All Right, man, Devil's like incrementally and our podcast, well, I should you know better, I should know how to operate these things, but as so, so we see how the devil is incrementally moving

7:06 in. Yeah, and and so now, when people get pregnant, what you do, as you kill kids, and spreme court said that it was legal and it's okay. And so now we see God's Word is completely broken. And now a little baby boys and girls in their mother's wombs are no longer safe from anyone that wants to kill him. It's open season. And in and that companion case was do versus Bolton, which said now and opened it up to all nine months, so you could kill a child in all nine months, and and and and so what we have is this awful, horrible thing that now over sixty million little baby boys and girls are dead. Today. One third of the generation forty seven years old and younger isn't here today. They've already been killed by abortion. And what does the devil do?

7:53 He comes to rob to kill him, to destroy abortion before it's anything else. Is Pre eminently a gospel issue now, it were. It has ramifications in politics, but politics always follows what's going on spiritually. Well, our spiritual battle is this that this enemy is come to drop, to kill him, to destroy but Jesus has come that we might have life and have it more abundantly. And so what we're called to do is not to be the master of the state nor its slave. We are to be the conscience of the STIKA. And that's where we lose our way. Because, you see, if you're going to get involved in the political argument of this and try to do and solve this, this horrible thing that is devastating and savaging our land, the murder of these children, if you're going to try to do that politically, then politics is the art of compromise. Now, how do you think God feels about compromising his word? Yeah, well, of course we have in the word stick commands against compromising the truth of God.

8:50 And when you love suffering under the subtle compromises of a liar Satan. Yeah, and so we've got ourselves convinced that if we will incrementally, another word, use Satan's method and will incrementally get in so and begin to work politically to solve this problem, what happens is we're going to have to compromise God's word. So we come up with pieces of legislation which are well intentioned and with really true motives to save babies. So we come up with things like, all right, let's let's add the exceptions clause and yes to everything.

9:33 So, so, rape, incest, life of the mother. Yeah, that was the first pro life compromise. That was way back in the beginning and we were the ones that initiated it. So we so we basically saying, you know, so our goal. We when an abortion was unleashed by the Supreme Court on our nation, as as believers, believers rose up and say this is not right. But in rising up, instead of saying this is not right because God's word says it's not right, and it's not right at all. No exceptions, we decided we'd go ahead and throw some exceptions in there for you so there would be more acceptable to the world. Is that sort of the so that we could yes, so that we could protect life? Yeah, we so we put these exceptions on here. So, and the devil is willing to sign off on that. You'll sign any piece of pro life legislation that we've come up with. Yet every single one including the hurt pop bill. Okay, he'll sign it. Yeah, this talk a little bit about because you know when we're coming in earlier and coming down here to start record, and we talked about the the Faustian wager and that sort of ties into that, that whole sort of compromise and almost like making a deal with the devil. So explain that a little bit, as it has to do with incrementalism and why that's a trap. And you know, some folks that are that are listening have no clue what we're even talking about.

10:52 Maybe even don't even know about incrementalism or mediatism or any of that. But so the Faustian wager is may even more of a complex thing that it's pretty simple to understand. It is it's an old story about the devil, as sometimes named Mephistophilis or what. But it's the same argument. This incremental approach. This is mephistophilis WHO's coming to to deal with Dr Faust, and Dr Faust is going to sell his soul to the devil so that he can have power and enlightenment. Okay, and and so mephistoft least really tries to talk foulest out of it, but fils ultimately gives in to the devil's emissary. Now, mephistoph least it's not the devil, just one of his little minions, okay, that he's got operating. And so they make this wager.

11:37 Well, I know. So here's my question. This is what I asked churches. I say, well, if Donald Trump, who's now president, would would say to you, listen, I will, as far as it's up to me, in the United States of America, make abortion illegal. Now, in Brownsville, Texas, there there were several little babies that died because they were born without brain stems or something like that. They were going to die there. We're going to live for only a couple of hours, you know, after the babies were born. And and that was going on down in Brownsville Texas, and this was back in one thousand nine hundred and ninety two and and he said this to you. He said this if, if you will give me those two little babies or three little babies holiver, many were born then that were born without friends brain stems, are only going to be here for a short period of time. If you'll give me those, I will, to the best of my ability. I am going to stop abortion in this country. I'll make law, I'll do everything, I can, sign executive orders, whatever's necessary. The question then becomes, would you, Daniel Parks, make that deal? Yeah, so we're talking three babies that I would just say, okay, they're valuable, but I'm willing to compromise and say Yay, they can, they'll just unfortunately have to die and then potentially we can save so many thousands, hundreds of thousands of millions more. That's a yeah. But what you think of then that?

12:58 What does your own flesh tell you? Yeah, I mean my flesh says, okay, it's maybe a good maybe a good trade. Say You did. I mean I would like to thank that my church because again, I'm going to look at this. My flesh certainly wants to rise up and take over and make this decision, but I know what God's Word says and I know ultimately that me making a wager with this, with the with the president era, with the Supreme Court, is not what's going to end abortion. It's going to be God. So I'm going to I'm going to appeal to the Lord and say it's not my choice to make. So you mean to tell me, and you would tell all those are the girls that are down to abortion mill right today. You would tell them all that I, Daniel Parks, and not going to make that deal and all the babies that are coming in here today could be saved. Yeah, yeah, I mean because, ultimately, again, I'm not leaning. You know, the Bible speaks against leaning on the arm of deflation. Well, I think you put it in the hands of the Lord. Ultimately, right. Well, and you and you stand strong on God's word. I mean, it's not an easy it's not an easy question to answer. The answer. Would your wife, Courtney say? Yeah, I mean when she's I think. I would like to think she would let me lead in that area, as you would let me contain where the pants she might, but she say, Daniel, you're a real idiot. That's yeah, no, I'm sure you. You can't really do this. I meant to save millions. I mean, doesn't it makes sense? It makes absolute perfect well, sir, I mean I guess so. In my mind, I'm thinking number one, I don't trust the thing that Donald Trump says that he's going to be. Yeah, right, I mean, I don't trust politicians, I don't trust you know, make

14:31 it. You could, let's say, let's say I could. Yeah, I think. I mean it bowls down to it's not my it's not my choice to determine whether or not someone leaves choishes. I mean to the mothers that are making the decision to have an abortion, it's their choice to kill their child's but whose choice is this decision? Did? Yeah, I'm I guess it. It's laid at my doorstep. Yeah, it's mine. And you would say no to that, right? I would say absolutely no. Just add it on us word and so every single person that you know, your friends, your mom and dad, probably, unless people really have thought this thing through theologically, would say you are an idiot. I mean even think I'm anything. You can't. I mean ask Jason Janez. You had him here. I'll tell you. I know what he's going to say.

15:18 Yeah, and it would probably surprise you. Maybe not, but but the fact of the matter is that asked David and Jason Donham. That okay, that's a good boy. They're hey, they should answer right there because because, I believe me this, when we understand the ramifications of this battle and how it will be fought and how it must be one. We cannot. We have got to trust in the Lord with all of our heart, not trust our heart. Yeah, we're and we're not to follow our heart. Our hearts are going to lie to US, just like they're going to lie to probably everybody that's out there right now listening to you and me. They're saying, you take the deal. Yeah, the problem is, God never gave you the moral authority to make that deal. Yeah, that's his deal.

16:03 He is the one that determines. God never gave you that chip. The chips all belong to him. We can't get in the place of God to make that deal. The only thing that we can do is stand for every single little baby, boy or girl, and those two little babies born without the brain stems in the Brownsville, Texas Irish passis and God site as a seven and a half billion people on this planet. Yeah, and we've got to begin to see things from his perspective. So then what do we do, God? Yeah, I mean, how how are you going to want us? You want us to how are we going to overcome this if we don't have that bargaining chip and we don't God? Just wondering. Trust into the Lord with all your heart, not trust your heart, not trust your got. Now the Hollywood mantras is follow your heart and not that.

16:55 She said. It says trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Yeah, our own understanding and reason is going to take us right down there if we are not governed and run. There's there is a way, scrub verbs, I think says two or three times. There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of that way is death leads to that. So I mean one of the things that we're looking at is, you know, as I look at the issue of abortion, I look at it from from merely almost like a gospel preacher standpoint and not really the legislative or the whatever that's like. Man, what's the the end goal is the proclamation of the Gospel and that the Gospel takes root in a human heart, and that's ultimately abortion ends sort of de facto when the Gospel takes root in a society. That's sort of where I come from. But when I hear you know people and they make good arguments and I hear you know about well this this legislation, heartbeat bills, or you know twenty week bands or whatever. It's like these are going to say babies. I don't really push against that because I'm like, well, if it does, and praise God. I just don't I don't know from a from a biblical standpoint. How do we, and how should we take a stance against that sort of incrementalist mindset? What's the dangers of allowing that incrementalist mindset to continue without addressing it? And and what are sort of what's the alternative then? Well, we have an alternative. When Jesus was tempted,

18:27 what did he use? The devil did all sorts of reasoning with him. You're hungry, turn these stones into bread. Yeah, and need and forty days. Sure, it makes sense. I mean, you know, and it's not going to these subtle compromises of a liar. You know, just if you really want to, you know, people to worship you, just show how strong you are, jump off the pinnacle of the temple. And yet and and you know what, they'll all worship you if you are the son of God. You you see, you hear the compromises. What was the one weapon that Jesus used? The word of gutsump him exactly. It is written, remember, back in Genesis, chapter three versus one, and to you see, did God really say yeah? And so what you're saying then, is that when we're doing, you know, our legislative kind of hurt, you know, making these different I don't say hurdles, but we're making these legislative moves and all of this stuff, is it ultimately we're compromising by saying, I'm I've heard you say it before, when we make bills and we leave exceptions in those bills, we're basically saying this, this and this and then you can kill the baby. And so you're saying that doing that is not standing on the word of God, that it's compromising God's word and it's making a deal ultimately with with truth. That because every single one of those pieces of legislation, as well intentioned as they are, with Dynamic Christians that are saying, yes, they just haven't thought this out, okay, but but it's that caveat seven words and then you can kill the baby.

20:02 So parental consent. Well, would you sign this piece of legislation as a Christian, would God, have you signed this piece of legislation that when a parent consents to the murder of their grandchild or you know, yeah, if they consent to that or when or their child, then you can kill the baby if they have a consent. Is that true? I mean that if they get the parents consent? Yeah, is it true that they can kill the baby? So that's okay then, well, it's it's not okay in God's life and in government. So white all right, so signing that pet even with that, I mean there's like, you know, you can get a young lady can get a waiver where she didn't have to have him.

20:48 I absolutely she can do things. But but the fact of the matter is that we spend a lot of time working to get parental consent and a lot of money in the pro life industry begins to get involved. The pro life industry is God to show that it is accomplishing something so that we continue to get the funds coming in. Now, unfortunately, for a lot of pro life ministries, what happens is the modality that was birthed in sacrifice and filled with vision and mission to save babies becomes after a while, just like churches, just like us as we walk and Christian like, we become so daladies. You lose vision and mission and you get involved and I got to support this beast. Yeah, I got it, and so I build like a frank and church or Frankin Ministry, where I got to do this and we got to do that, because strategy has replaced truth. Yeah, and this is the devastating thing. We are moving God out of the equation and we're trying on our own. Trusting in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Yeah, in all your ways, acknowledge me and I will make your paths straight. God is made a promise.

21:56 I will do it. Trust me in this. Our duty is not to compromise and strategize how to do this. Our duty is to love God first and love our neighbor as ourself. And our duty is to live out his word and allow the Theology of Heaven to become biography right in the streets another. So let the word of God become flesh. Because how did Jesus save a wretch like me? He had to calm down into this pit to rescue me. Yeah, there was nothing that I could do. Are No strategy that I could develop to make myself to cover one of my sins. Only he could have done it, and he did it, and he's saying now, as I have loved you, I want you to go out and love.

22:42 I want you to love others. I want you to love the world. Is I have loved you so that they will see what love does. Love never sits idly buy what little children are being killed? In six months, right here in the city of Charlotte, we got three abortion mills and planned parenthood. It's waiting to do them, but can't thank God for the prayers of the saints that are stopping them from doing that. But in six months this whole abortion Holocaust in in the city of Charlotte. Now are we can stop all abortions? Of course not. You don't stop all sin either. What we are what we are looking to do, is to tell the truth so that the nation knows the truth about God, the truth about abortion, and that's our duty. We are the compass. We point true north.

23:30 We don't ever compromise God's word. We stand on God's word. So is we allow that to become life every single day. Like those folks out there right now that are there pleading for the MOMS, they are living out the truth. They are doing it. They're compromising nothing. Yeah, nothing. And they're laying their lives down. That's what they're doing out there. Yeah, if the church were to show go up in mass, if we if we saw three rolds being taken into an abortion mill right thousand hundred and twenty Latrobe Avenue, right down the street, if we saw three year olds taken in, their Mama was taken a man they and Mama said, look at I can't raise the child. I'm I'm got college, I've got so many things that I'm not a good mom and so I'm going to take him in. They're going to give him a little shop, put him to sleep, nobody won't even know, and then another shot that will take him out, because I'm a bad mother and I know it and I admit it.

24:22 What will we do if we saw that happening down there as a church? Yeah, we were, I mean you amountaintly different. We would be down there. Well, we've got three month old in the womb that are just as precious and fully human as that three year old child outside of the womb being taken in there. When you have eyes to see this, God says love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah, what they've done to me, what you've done to the least of these, my brother, and you have done it unto me. Yeah, another we're Jordan nailing Jesus to the cross again in if we in the church are going to sit back and say, well, I'm not called to that ministry. We got other ministries. We take care of the homeless. They're all wonderful. We've got cristis pregnancy centers over here and over there to help mom. It's like building a hospital next to a concentration camp. Yeah, come on that. They're people in the concentration camp and what they need is that someone to bring them healing right now.

25:15 What they need is somebody to rescue them out of the concentration camp. Yeah, that's so so understand. The crisis pregnancy centers are wonderful, but you've got to have that. You can't have your front lines up crisis pregnancy center. Yeah, I mean any more than the marines will send Triaj in first. Yeah, the Marines have got to go in first and Triaj is back there to take care of the guys who get wounded, going, going, and so understand that when the church rises up and says see, because how we fight the battle is determined by what we perceive the battle to be. Yeah, and if they really are killing children there, and we really believe that, then what are we called to do? We are called to empty ourselves and lay our life down that that child might live, precisely what they're doing out at the abortion m yeah, but there are others that have said, well, what I'm going to do is, and this is how I started, you know, we're going to write letters to our congressman. Yes, what good is that going to do for the little baby boy or girl that's going in today if the latter doesn't get there for three days? And DC, plus the fact we're looking now to Washington DC to take care of this problem? Washington DC cannot. The gates of how will always prevailed against sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue and lot of twenty. The Gates of mail are at one thousand six hundred, is even newer. The Congress there there, they can't fight. The only institution were damed by God to come against this enemy is the Church of the Living God. And the problem is we don't know

26:45 that. We are not cleansed sort of one, since we sort of relegated our responsibility to the legislature into the one hundred Pennsylvania Avenue, and that's sort of want when I look at incremental steps to ending abortion. And and again I'm not always like stnicely opposed of those things, probably to a fault myself. It's just not my I don't know, just hadn't put a lot of thought to it, although I am recently doing so. But the biggest danger I see for the church is that when we pass, you know, a twenty week ban or, you know, the parental consent or even a heartbeat bill, that we think somehow that okay, we've won the battle, or if we won a battle. and to me that's the biggest dangers, that we can sit back and say, okay, we did our part, we voted, we had our people in place, you know, our politicians whatnot, and we want to a battle. And you know, there's a lot of celebration when these certain legislation is passed and the prolife organizations and even Christians are rejoicing and and all of that. and to me that's that's the danger.

27:45 You know who we sit man? Who is won the battle? When we sit back? The devil exactly. He's one. Yeah, he and he wins every day that we don't deal with this. When I said that the church could end this in Charlotte in six months, I need to I need to just put put a statement in front of that, a statement that carries us through, that abortion will come to an end in America, in the city of Charlotte, when the Church of Jesus Christ makes up her mind, it will come to an end. And Yeah, one che and sooner. You see, we have a God and when we perceive this battle and see what it really is, when we see that they're actually living human beings that are going to be ripped apart. So don't tell me about your ministries all over here. There isn't another place that I know of or that you know of in the city of Charlotte where people are actually being killed and you know they're going to be killed, then right here, that there's an immediacy here, that these these children need a voice. Yeah, if the Church would come out in mass, it's over. We just come out into what all? What are you supposed to do when you come out yet to have church in the street? Yeah. So, so we're going to have what in November sixteen? We're going to have four five thousand people out here, maybe more. Yeah, Melton the street. How long do you think abortions go to last? If, if everything did that day, if we got every single day, we got the praying, singing Church of Jesus Christ out here, all of a sudden everything changes. The police can't arrest enough people,

29:18 you know, they can't terrify them, or they're going to have people in and then other Christians are going to come in, they're going to catch and see what happens. Is If will unloose that on Earth, God promises that I will loose it from heaven. Yeah, you know, I'm you, and so let's do it. Let's allow the theology of having let God win this victory. We are God's answer to this. The same thing happened with the issue of slavery. It was just a different colored glove. It was our black brothers and sisters, and the Supreme Court in one thousand eight hundred and fifty seven declared our black brothers and sisters not fully human. What we try to come up with all sorts of compromises, the three fifths law. What will make him three fists of a person? That was to appease the south, to keep them still a part of the union. So you could count the slaves as three fists of a vote, right, and so you all of these political compromises. Henry Clay, the great compromiser, couldn't fix this because the issue was never political. It had its manifestation there, but at the very heart of it it was a battle over who is Lord and whose law's reign. If God is Lord, our black brothers and sisters are fully human, not three fists. So stop doing that, stop compromising God's worth their five fists of a person. Yeah, one hundred percent.

30:37 And and you know, Lincoln, when he became president, had no intention of ending slavery at all when he became president. Now, after two years of the presidency in the south seceding. Then it became apparent there was going to be a war. Yeah, and there was a war and six hundred thousand, six hundred thousand plus men died in the civil war. Six hundred thousand. That's more than I have died in all the wars since then. And Abraham Lincoln finally realized that God was dealing with the sin of slavery. Yeah, and and how did he come to that realization? Well, we had abolitionists. That's where you first get abolitionists. But some of the abolition just we're absolutely insane, John Brown being one. Yeah, I want you to talk about that because you said something. We were talking about this yesterday and it was like, you know, it was profound to me, or at least I don't know. It was like, man, people need to hear this when we talked about because we talked about abolitionists, you know, the modern abortion abolitionist movement and the prolife movement in these different terms that we use, immediatist, incrementalist, abolitionist and prolife and whatever, which terms should we had plotter ourself, and you said something. I like, man, people need to hear this, that we don't come out here and do what we do is abolitionists. We don't do what we do in speaking up for these babies as prolifers. We do what we do. Ask Christians we are here, because not, we're, you know, part of some group or this or that, and you know God uses groups and all of that,

32:08 but I'm saying primarily we come out here because we are Christians, because we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves. We don't compromise because we're Christians. We stand on God's truth, because we're Christians. And as to that same point of the gates of hell do not prevail against the Church of Jesus Christ, Jesus didn't come and say, you know, on this rock I will build my prolife movement or I'll build my abolitionist, you know movement, or I'll build my you know, I meti immediateist movement or incrementalist movement. Note I will build my church. And that that point there. And if you can just kind of expound on that point a little bit, as far as the Church of Jesus Christ, you already have being the entity that God has called in us, operating with that as our modest operendom right our mode of operation is we are the church. Talk a little bit about that and kind of share with folks your heart on that. Well, I think you just said that perfect. Okay, I love to hear you how to write a book about I should write a book, I know, I mean, it's an except I am not an abolitionist and it wasn't abolitionism that overcame this whole issue of slavery. See if we could just remember history, which, unfortunately we're in a spiritual Alzheimer's here. and point when you start forgetting your history? Well, Alzheimer's. Have you ever dealt with people those of him?

33:31 I grand maybe's not from Alzheimer's. Yeahka, what? They lose who they are? Yeah, they lose all point and purpose. That's where America is where to spiritual Alzheimer's. We've forgotten who we are, why we're here, where we're going and who we represent. We forgotten all about what made America great in the first place. Yeah, you know, we want to make a great again, but how R? Yeah, what you can. You can't abandon God and leave him back there and expect him to bless America. You can't be killing over sixty million of his children and say God, bless America. Yeah, what he's saying. Repent America. If my people, who were called by my name, shall humble themselves in pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and I will forgive their sin and I will heal their land. I believe that all the way through the Bible. I see it, Old Testament, New Testament. When do we win? Everywhere in the Bible at all times.

34:30 It's not the beginning of the book and the end of the book. We win. We went all the way through and you see the victories all the way through. Their small victories, but their victories nevertheless are small victories in my life, but their victories, nevertheless, they're small victories out there in the streets, when people show up in the name of Jesus to bring that what that does? We have the keys all authority and having another earth has been given me. Jesus said to his disciples, go there for me, disciples of all nations, potataw f Nay, all nations. You make disciples of all nation, teaching them to obey all that I've commanded you, and Lo, I will be with you to the end of the age. That's who we need. This is who's going to win the victory and it's going to happen every single day, in small victories every single day. But when you just look up in the political realm, that's the where the clean pro lifers are. They're clean. I mean it's a clean business and any and you do well and you get into green rooms and you get invited to speak, if you're up in Washington DC. You'll get him invited to speak to an all those talk shows. But the dirty pro lifers, you see, we serve a dirty savior. He came down here, he came down to the Cesspool, the mud, the blood, the beer, the grit, the filth, the bilge of my life. He did. He had to get into this cess pool to pull me out because there was no way out for me. You could to put a ladder down there and said climb out, but there was no ladder that there was going to get me out of there. I was I he had to come and he sinks into that

36:06 to get me up. That's the savior that I serve. If he was wounded for my transgressions, bruise for my iniquities, the chastisement of my pieces upon him and with his stripes, I am healed. Yeah, that's him. He's so this savior is that? When we go out to the streets, do you think? Do you hear people vilifying the people up in Washington DC coming up with all of these wonderful prolife bills and things like that? No, it's all clean. Yeah, well, premise, they're not. They come from along because the devil the same devil that's coming after us right now, you know, that puts us in jail, to gives us citations all the time, that files lawsuits against us, that builds walls, as if they can, to keep us from giving mom's a real choice. That, see, that's the dirty stuff. And we get pushed into a corner.

36:57 We who are living out the gospel of Christ, get pushed into this corner of wild eyed fanatics when they don't understand that this is what our Lord did for us, and he was called every name that you could possibly imagine. As a matter of fact, even the Religious Pharisees, who knew the Bible inside out, they hated him, even the Herodians, and that as a Sadducees, the Pharisees, they all came together. Yeah, and they hated each other, but they came together. I know you preach the message ones. I'm Jesus Unites His enemies and divides his friends. That's right, he's friends every single time and he will separate his friends. And, by the way, a lot of the people that were walking with you at one time saying love, and Daniel said, yeah, I think you. I think the cheese has done slid off the crack. Yeah, if you bring it out there screaming at all those people out there, you're not doing any goodest. Matter of fact, you're harm in the pro life movement. And and and, let me tell you, you're not harm in the pro life movement, in the folks that are out here. These are small victories.

37:52 It's a thankless job the church. This doesn't benefit the church in any way. It doesn't get you members. As a matter of fact, they'll get people to not want to come to your church if that's the way you're going to act out there in the streets. It's just the way it is. So we have to despise the shame, like our Savior Jesus did, and endure the cross. Yeah, he did, and our cross today. We got to deny ourselves. My flesh doesn't want to be out here all the time listening to this stuff and then getting chastised by the church. Yeah, and I when I come back, you know, I come back to church and it's like I got my tail between my legs. You know, the other day I was right down the road, as actually right into the abortion mail here on the tribe, and I was at a stopped light and I was just thinking about, you know, some false accusations the police have brought against us, a city council. They paint us as these radical, you know, right wing whatever, and even some well meaning Christians that have some criticisms what we do, which you I don't. I don't share criticism, but if it's not found in the word, I don't want to hear it, you know. And I was like, I was just praying. I was like, Lord, you know what, I'm tired of getting falsely accused.

38:59 And this is like almost as clear as I've heard the Lord speak to my heart. It's like the Holy Spirit spoken. Said, yeah, I know what you mean. I was like, you know what, Lord, you're worse. You're right, you're right. You kind of did get falsely accused, didn't you? Sound like sorry, Lord, Give Me Grace and I'll bear under this. But yes, that's the way he did it. Yeah, and he died and it appeared to the world that he was losing it. It probably appeared, yeah, devil to the devil, that he would I finally I've got him, I've shot him up. But what he didn't understand what the angels and heaven didn't even know how God was going to operate that now, as soon as he died and he ascended into heaven and that Holy Spirit came down, now he had Jesus everywhere ever, the fly right inside of their hearts, just and that's where revival comes from. So what what do we need to do? Where are we at right now?

39:49 And the fact of the matter is we're at at point where we've got to say, well, let's just remember history and go back. Do you know when Dread Scott Decision, one thousand eight hundred and fifty seven that we just talked about, that that called our black brothers and sisters property in the slave owners? Do you know when that was overturned? I do not know. It never was okay by the Supreme Court. Now we have the thirteen, four, fourteen to fifteen amendments. Yeah, the took care of that, but there had to be a bloody civil war that was fought and it was the church rising up. It was the church that came without almost a hundred yard long scroll, a pastor saying, Mr President, you must sign this emancipation proclamation declaring our black brothers and sisters fully human. Yeah, that this nation has to take that stand as soon as that thing was signed. Now, it was initially signed but not ratified. It was initially signed in September of one thousand eighteen and sixty three, one thousand and eighteen and sixty two, but it was officially signed on January fee one eighteen sixty three. It was at that point that the whole the whole battle turned and and the Union forces, because God had given the south all the best generals. Okay, they could out general any of the generals in the north, but the north

41:21 had all of the resources and supplies when that thing was signed. That's a national repentance of the killer of the bondage, that we were dealing with, a sin of slavery. Yeah, after that was signed, we began to win. The North Begin to win the battles and the and the fought the fight. The battle was one. Yeah, what? But Abraham Lincoln in his second inaugural address, which is written in the halls of the Lincoln Memorial, that second he said that it is and Lincoln finally came to this realization that it was the sin of slavery, that that every drop of blood that was shed by the Slat, by the whip of the master, would be required of us on the battle fields because of the sin of slavery. And now God began to bring healing to this nation. Yeah, he forgave our sin, but we had to confess that that was a sin. Yeah, we had a confessor when it and it happened not in the halls of Congress or in the Senate or in the Supreme Court or in one thousand six hundreds of Pennsylvania Avenue. It happened in the Church of Jesus Christ. It did.

42:35 And is is it like? You know, the Scripture says judgment begins at the House of the Lord and then you sort of contide it together. Paul says in the Police Search Scrinthians, chapter ten or eleven, where he says unless you judge yourself, you'll be judged of God. So it's like the church judged itself, repented second chronicles fourteen, and then the healing came and led the nation in repentance. Yeah, the words. It's got to begin in the House of God. So where's the House of God right now? Well, we got lights, we got smoke and fall and are that. We got it all. We got it all and still there are three freestanding abortion mill in the city killing children. Yeah, we're growing our churches, but we know that this is happening in God us saying, where are you? You see, tolerance sits back and does nothing. Love gets involved and does something. Love can't sing city back. You don't tolerate something that's wrong, that's going on. So Biblical love maybe looks a lot different than this world. The stuff that we talked about in this world is to L U V yeah, the real stuff. It's just the sugar where the salt of the earth and we have been stuck in this salt Shaker and we're enjoying the fellowship in there, the holy hotels that we have, but we're not out here in the streets. And that's because we're comfortable. Yeah, we are, and we're comfortable and we're really comfortable with blaming the Republicans for doing

44:07 something. We're really comfortable with blaming trump or blaming anybody else in the world. End Damns, you're good. Yeah, I mean we're doing what we can't. So what you see is you see the single entity most responsible for the abortion Holocaust in this land is not planned parenthood or Margaret Singer. It's not the ACLU, it's not an after National Abortion Federation. It isn't any of those things. It's not our sorry public education, it isn't any of those things. The one most responsible for what is happening in America today, in the city of Charlotte today, is is the one who really thinks it's doing the most to solve the problem. Yeah, which is the Church of Jesus Christ. Well, we are pathotic in God's side. We aren't out there. If the church had a call and said, look, if you don't come out to these abortion mills, I'm going to take every public error, every private education stuff, I'm going to take all of your goodies away from you, all your buildings, everything, your smoke machines, your everything is going. Your your book deals, everything is out. Do you think the church might show up at these places? I say now, either take care of this or it's all gone. Yeah, well, let me just tell you. That's it. We love our stuff and we don't know it.

45:30 We can see everybody else that's at fault except ourselves. So we are not on the verge of repentance. And if there's not going to be repentance, then there is I don't care what kind of strategy you have. God has one strategy. It's repentance. Stand on my word. Well, how am I going to do this? Don't worry about your strategy, I'll take care of that. Don't lean on your own understanding. I'll take care of everything. You just trust me. you go out and live and you love your neighbors, yourself, trying to imagine your own son or daughter there and it was going to be taken away to death. Begin to live like that and what that will do is it will when repentance begins in the church, it begins to move all over everything and then ultimately you will see laws change, but it's from the inside out. It's from the bottom up and not from the top down. We're up at the top. You know, we got the president, so I'll fix it. Yeah, it couldn't work.

46:23 You can't do it. Yeah, that's a good word. Well, and just in wrapping this thing up, because we've gone almost forty five minutes, I think, you know, we've touched on a lot. You know, I want to encourage folks to you know, you can come, certainly come in volunteer with US cities for life if you're in Charlotte, but if you're you know around the country and you're stirred to action because, listen, they're like what seven hundred abortion meals across this country. Thankfully the number has as decline for various reasons, but in the main reason is that people are showing up to those abortions and seeing baby saved. If your burden to do that. We have a website, sidewalks for lifecom sidewalks on number four, where we're focusing on how to bring the Gospel to the abortion clinic, because one of the traps is is one of the reasons why we started this podcast, and this is, you know, as Christians, it love Jesus, one of the chaps will fall into. It's compromising the word of God to be more effective, letting strategy overtake truth, and and so one of our heart kind of our focus with this podcast is to infiltrate the pro life movement with the necessity of the Gospel. And that's what that website, sidewalks for life, talks about, how to bring the Gospel. Yeah, I mean we we medical facts. Medical facts are on our side, science is on our side. You know, it resources and stuff. We bring that kind of thing. You know, the ultrasound. The power of ultrasound is is, is great, but it does not match the power of the Gospel. We have to bring the Gospel to the abortion clinics, we have to bring the Gospel to the to the legislators, to and and hold these legislators accountable.

47:54 That the reason why we're opposed to abortion. It's not just because it's bad for women or it's bad for society, it's because God's words says that it's murder and that we as a people cannot stand by while murder takes place and do nothing, and it legislators can't stand by and do nothing. So I want to encourage you guys with that and encourage you guys to share this podcast and just give us some feedback if you have ideas for future podcast. And I'd like to have flip back on and talk a little bit about sort of the history of the pro life moving at some point, because he's been involved for thirty plus years, longer than some of you been alive. I must learner that, but it's got he's got some wisdom that I think he can he can really share any has shared today. So I appreciate you coming and sharing appreciate all those who listen and hope that you're blessed by this podcast.

48:38 God bless use, mel use, give me, give me. Will cost me my life, but not things. TWO PRECIOUS INSIDE