The Bible Doesn't Mention Abortion and 4 other Prochoice Arguments

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me, Lord, I am your welcome to the Gospel centered pro life podcast and this episode we're going to talk about five pro choice arguments and how to counter those arguments. Please stay with us as we talked through these important issues. We hope you're blessed as you this. I felt show passis touch your heart. Use Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. I have today, as often do, Vicki here, Vicky, cause you org, is the volunteer coordinator with cities for life, and my name is Daniel Parks. If you don't already know, I'm the executive director of cities for life here in Charlotte, where sidewalk counseling ministry. But we started this podcast to encourage folks with, you know, a Gospel centered approach to not decide, we all countling, but to prolife ministry, to pro life thought, to understand that are thinking about abortion needs to really be thought through in the light of the Gospel.

1:10 Yes, and in this episode we're going to talk about five pro choice arguments and how to counter those pro choice arguments. These are arguments that we hear from pro choice activists, the arguments that you see on social media, their arguments that we hear sometimes from abortion mounded women at the abortion and center and and just in interactions. These are some of the arguments of that come out. This is not an exhaustive list, this is just five of those pro choice arguments, but these, you know, countering these arguments, I think, is important and they're not really too deep. They're not very deep faults typically, but they do sometimes cause us to Paul's and think, Oh yeah, well, what about that? What about this? Especially when we get into some of the the biblical arguments. See what's funny that we hear from from pro choice people that you need to know the Bible really has no validity. And in that first point we're going to deal with tough a little bit about that. But it's funny how the Bible, Bible really has no validity to life according to some of these folks. But the Bible says this or the Bible doesn't say that. So jump right into that that first objection or first argument that share choice. Be Sure. Okay. So so I want to preface all of this with whenever I'm in countering these pro socalled pro choice objections. Sometimes they have some sort of a faith, but most of the time they do not. Oftentimes they do not. And and so I think it's always good to consider all of this in terms of not only biblical, of course biblical is most important to us, Sus a Gospel centered pro life ministry, but but also can you are go argue for using science,

2:47 secular facts, and I think you can. The Bible supports the Bible is the author of science. Yeah, science just reflect except how the world works, which God created this, this world. Yeah. So, so I try to do that whenever I address any of these any of these issues. So our first question. Will hear this all the time. The Bible doesn't mention abortion even once. Yeah, and this again it's is from people who don't believe the Bible right and don't think the Bible has any validity. Did it to human existence, and yet they say the Bible doesn't mention abortion even once in the of course what they're trying to do is they're trying to take you know, the book that you believe in, that you try to use to to fight against abortion, actually doesn't even mention abortion even once. And you know that's sort of like one of those questions where you're right. The word abortion is not in the Bible, but the principle and God being against abortion is in the Bible because, you know, from our perspective and from the Biblical perspective, human beings have an intrinsic value. Human beings are made in the image of God and it's wrong from old to New Testament, it's wrong to destroy an innocent human life. Right, God is against it's this the sixth command. So though the Bible doesn't directly say thou shalt not have an abortion, it does say the Sixth Command and exit this chapter twenty, thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not murder. Right, right. So it does mention abortion, right, and there's no exceptions on that. Shown

4:20 that murder. It doesn't say Thou shall not murder unless it's unborn human life, or thou shall not murder unless you're in really dire circumstances, or thou shall not murder unless you're, you know, wealthy and can drive a Mercedes. So yeah, the unborn life is still human life. Yeah, and valuable before God. Right, right, solute, right. So how about this one? Because because this one, this this part of abortion being mentioned. Then they turn around, like you said, the the pro choice people, and say, well, what about this passage? Then that does mention abortion, and they say and they say it, it paints God as causing an abortion. So so that's in exodus twenty one. Okay, versus twenty two, hundred and twenty five. Are you? Are you turned there or I can read it, but if you wanted, yeah, I'll turn there.

5:13 And this is actually, actually this passage is not. You're maybe thinking about the numbers passage. Okay, number, Chapter Five. Will get doing just a minute. Okay, you're right, but this passage is has to do with you too. If two men are fighting together, and you know, there's sort of like we don't really kind of grasp why this is mentioned just like this. Obviously there was something going on where God, through Moses, mentions this scenario, if two men are striving together, and I think I know the point here, and some pro abortion people will use it as a point to say abortions okay with God, because you know, basically it says if two men fight together, and this is in Verse Twenty Two of Exodus Chapter Twenty one, if men fight together and hurt a woman, with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished according to the woman's husband or what the woman's husband imposes on him, and he shall pay as the judge, as a judge's determined.

6:06 So if men fighting together like they're bound, they're fighting each other, they're, you know, angry with each other for whatever reason, and they hit a pregnant woman and obviously if they hit a pregnant woman there's harm to her. So what a pro abortion person will say? Well, it's talking about if there's any harm to her. Well, it's implied that there's going to be harm to her. The harm that it's talking about later on, as it goes on to say. But if harm follows, then you shall give life for life. The harm that follows is this. If she is if she gives birth prematurely because of this scuffle between these two men and they hit her and the baby's okay, then he's just going to have to pay according to what the husband but if there is harm, which if the baby dies, then he will give life for life. Right. So, rather than it being that God's okay with a premature birth here and potentially you know, and induced abortion from two men fighting together and hitting a pregnant woman. It's actually establishing the value of that unborn life, that that is a life for life. That baby dies, then that guy who perpetrated that that crime is going to lose his life as well. That's right. So that interpretation obviously counters what the pro choice people are saying, because in that they are saying that if she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, that it is talking about the woman, that there's no serious injury to the woman, but that the baby, they're assuming has died. Yeah, doesn't say that.

7:33 Yeah, there are babies that are born prematurely that live, but the next verse, and so they're saying. And then in the next the next portion of the verse, when it says that if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, and they're saying, but that applies to the woman. Well know, to me that is in direct directly saying there is serious injury to the baby. Not only is it born prematurely, but it's they're serious injury. Yeah, and it sounds like death, because then it says then you are to take life for life. So the the what I've heard the pro choice people say is in that that that this shows that that the baby is just property. Yeah, and so there's can be a fine paid if the baby dies. But I don't think that's what that's what these verses are saying, and that's what that's what you find. Yeah, beatrue. Yeah, I think rather than saying that God is okay with an abortion of the situation. Yeah, actually the opposite exactly is being conveyed here, that if she gives birth prematurely, the baby's okay, then they're going to pay a fine. Yeah, if she gives birth prematurely in the baby dies, then it's going to be the death penalty for the person who effectively caused this. Correct this baby correct. So here is something that that when I first heard this, it kind of took me aback and I didn't quite know how to deal with it. And and now I you know, upon further study, will know of this is actually supports a pro life position.

9:01 Yeah, so, and it's not just in you, my opinion, your opinion, if many commentaries about this passage of scripture, it's but you know, if their commentaries that are that are seasoned by you left this political persuasions. They'll try to add anything in there, but the vast majority of commentaries about this particular passage are going to say just what we're saying. And even those who might have it an agenda to think abortion is okay would have a hard time doing some sort of Hermoneutical backflips in order to make that imply that God's okay with an abortion. The baby's just property right, exactly okay. And so that the next one, which is the one I thought I was giving you the first one. So that that's the the one from from numbers right. Yep, number ship I five. Ever, this a lot from from pro choice people again, people who are saying, you know, the Bible really has no validity to life. Why? You know, one pro choice lady told me of the day the problem is with that book, it's points that my Bible, that book. That's your problem because you cling to that thing. And yet she and some of the other pro abortion people have brought the passage, this passage from that book, exactly about why.

10:09 You know, you shouldn't be incourage, you shouldn't be least against abortion. Actually, God not only is okay with it, he actually induces an abortion right and numbers checks. That's what they claim. Right again, when I first read it, I'm going to tell you true confessions. I was I was reading Niv translation and if you read the NIV translation, they they actually have a point. But I know you have done some further research in that. So what don't you maybe read us this passage and tell us what? Yeah, so I'll give you the scenario rather than the reading through the whole thing. I give you sort of the the scenario. People can read this themselves. Number, Chapter Five, verses eleven through thirty one, thirty one, leventy thirty one. The basically the scenario is this. A man suspects that his wife has committed adultery and so he's to bring his wife before the priest. Right, all right. So he brings his wife before the priest and it says the priest actually will take in verse seventeen, the Preestshall Take Holy Water in an earthen vessel and take some dust from the floor of the Tabernacle and put it into the water. So the picture here is, you know, the Tabernacle is the holy place. There's the holiest of holies, which is where the where the Ark of the Covenant Duels and the priest can only enter in once a year, right, but this place still, the Tabernacle, is a holy place. So you have this holy water that's there and you have this holy dust. You know, it's sort of looks back to the picture of Moses. Take your sandals off, because the ground on which you stand is holy grounds. It is holy ground that this priest is

11:41 putting in this chalice of water and to give this woman. And this from some pro abortion people, they think this is sort of like the abortion medication, like the abortion pill of Moses Day, right, that God somehow, through the dust and the water, induces an abortion. And here's what it says, just kind of skimming on down he's he says, and May this water that causes the curse to go in this verse, twenty two, to go in your stomach, make your belly swell and your thigh rot. Then the woman shall say Amen, so be it. And and so, basically, if she drinks this water, this this water with the dust in it, and she is guilty of adultery, like her husband suspects, then her belly will swell and her thigh will rot. Now determined by God. Right, this is how God said that this was to be determined. Yeah, versus correct? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and this is sort of this is God's prescription. Right and and this is an issue for the husband thinks his wife has been in an adulter's fair takes before the priest dust and water, she drinks it and then if she is guilty, then her her belly will swell and her thigh will rot. I've read this passage in several different translations because I never heard this argument before until he will, you know, probably for or five years ago. Heard this argument and you know, I looked into it and I'm like, I just don't see what you're talking about, and then, you know, you read it in the in IV translation.

13:05 The INNOVAT IN IV's, I'm aware of, is the only translation that mentions anything about reproduction, miscarriage or anything like that, and it says that she will have a miscarriage, rather than her bailly will swear her Thihi Rot, she'll have a miscarriage. Correct. And you know, I talked to, actually sent an email to Dr Michael Brown, who does ask Dr Brown Dot Org, who's Hebrew scholar, and I sent an email to their team and just said Hey, listen, I know that this is not talking about an abortion. I've studied this thing out, but I'm not a Hebrew scholar. Is there any language in here that says anything, implies anything about a God induced abortion? And the response was no, this it's not talking about abortion at all. It's talking about a judgment says her belly will swell and her thigh. We're right, this is a judgment that's going to come up on or her right. But what's interested in? Kind of a another perspective that they brought out from from Dr Michael Brown was, and I think he has an article on his website even about this, this passage, and there's a lot of articles out there about this passage from from Hebrew scholars and whatnot.

14:07 Is that, even if it is so a quote God induced abortion right, it's not in the language is not there. You have to make it say what you want it to say if you're going to inject that into the passage. And why they NV translators did that? have no idea, but they did. Yeah, but basically, even if it did speak of abortion, it's in the context of a curse like this would be a curse to her right to used her child through an abortion. It wasn't exert it's no, wasn't then preserve her life the way she might be anything like that. It's first it's a judgment right, because you know in this day, in Moses Day, children, unlike today, for a lot of people, were seen as a blessing. So to lose your child actually it would be a curse, give Psalm on twenty seven. Children are a blessing from the Lord.

14:58 So, you know, I just say that to say in our day and age it might be seen as a blessing that she had some kind of God induced abortion, because we have an upside down way of thinking. It would be one of the worst things. You know, you look at women in the Old Testament would cry out to God, kill me if I can't have any children. You know, that be so, so heavy on them to not be able to have children. But any you know, just just in a brush through sort of reading of this, there's nothing about a god induced abortion here. I think more than anything, it can be to validate a woman whose jealous husband thinks that she is commit an adults ee and and you know, giving her sort of like a covering from the Lord, like she's not guilty of this thing because this is not what happened to her.

15:43 She shall be free. She's free from her husband's jealousy in that sense, right. So you know bottom line. There are also so many verses that talk about the value like, like you mentioned, Bait, children are a blessing, and the value of the unborn baby, and and so, while God may not specifically, the Bible doesn't use the word abortion and as we've shown in these two cases where people have said pro choice, people will hear descriptions of abortions when indeed they are not. But you know, but the Bible is filled with God's love of the unborn. Yeah, and and the tender language he uses in like Psalm one hundred and thirty nine nine, verse thirteen to sixteen. For you created my inmost being. You Knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made.

16:40 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in that secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. It's like poetry to the unborn. Yeah, God has said so, you know, gently and lovingly knit it together, that that child so and certainly calls it a baby. So so bottom line number one. The Bible doesn't mention abortion even once. Yeah, it tells us the concept. We have the Prince Sara, we have the principle. So you know just the you before we move on to that. Next the pro choice argument, you know that there's a lot of things the Bible doesn't directly mention. Good Point. I mean the Bible doesn't directly mention pit PHELIA. Correct. Yeah, would anybody argue that God's okay with pedophilia because God never mentions it? I mean certainly the principles are there that this is wrong and sinful in the sight of God? Yes, the the Bible doesn't mention smoke and crack. Right. I don't know. Think anyone would argue, biblical or otherwise, that God's okay with people smoking crack.

17:52 Right, there's certain principles there in your body is a temple of the Lord, those sort of things. So there's a lot of stuff that the Bible doesn't directly mention. That doesn't therefore give God's okay, and thumbs up to your behavior just because you know the Bible doesn't mention it. And again it. You know, it's just a it's a it's a tactic. It's a maneuver for pro abortion people to say, well, you're a book doesn't mention the thing that you're so strongly against and it you know, if you read Church history, although church history is not our standard. Our Standard is the Bible, right, but you see men and women throughout church history and their riotings, certainly very early in church history. The dedcay is a writing that's a compilation of some of the apostles teaching and it directly mentions abortion as abhorrent to God. It's something that should be involved. If you reach your early church history, you see abortion and infanticide, or two things that they are tied together. Ye, that are abhorn to the church. The church has always opposed and those who belong to God should always oppose these things because they're the devaluing of human life right there, the devaluing of this this creature that God has made in his own image. Human beings are the only creature that God made it his own image. So right, yeah, okay.

19:11 So number two. Here this again all the time. The baby is not a baby till it takes its first breath. Yes, so, so, okay, I'm going to I'm going to let you talk from the Biblical perspective. I'm going to give a secular perspective that I just read and I and I found it just I had known this about the American College pediatrics, not a religious group, their secular group doctors who who work with babies and children and the the name of this article is statement life issues. When human life begins? Yeah, and it's published by the American College Pediatrics. And so the abstract says, I'm going to read it to you because I think it is really important. Okay, it said the abstract of this of this article.

19:57 The predominance of Human Biological Research Confirms that human life begins at conception fertilization. At fertilization, the human being emerges as a whole, genetically distinct, individuated, psygotic, living human organism, a member of the species homo sapiens, needing only the proper environment in order to grow and develop. The difference between the Individual in it's a adult stage and in its psychotic stage is one of form not. Nature never changes, never changes from nonhuman to human, always human. This statement focus is on the scientific evidence of when an individual life, human life, excuse me, begins, and then later on the there their conclusion at the end of the abstract is that the college, the American College of Pediatrics, therefore opposes active measures that would prematurely end the life of any child at any stage of development, from conception to natural death.

21:11 And there was one other statement that I thought was really another, really important one. Nonetheless, one could sensibly make the case that personhood can only exist in a living human being and that the division of these two entities is arbitrary at best, because we hear this all the time. We can we can bring logically, as American College of Pediatrics did. We can bring people logically from the idea that, okay, even from the moment of conception, what is growing in the womb? I'll give you it's a human being, but it's not a person. You've heard that right, I've heard it all the time. It's personhood, is the big deal. But the American loge pediatrics scientist, who are not religious, so I mean they maybe, but they are not a religious organization, and they say that that distinction between admitting it's a living human being and that it's a person is an arbitrary distinction, yes, not one drawn in fact or science. Yeah, so, yeah, you know this, this person whood itself, is not a scientific statement.

22:18 It's a philosophical state. So too to argue that, you know, personhood happens at some point because science is so it is an absurdity. Like science can't do certain things. It can't tell us when a when a, when a human being becomes a person, right, and if it tries to, it steps outside of its boundary. Yeah, you know, in this this sort of question, which I've heard, and it sort of takes different forms, right, maybe it takes a form of, you know, it's not a baby or it's not a human being, it's not a life valuable enough to protect until it takes its first breath. Or you know, there was a video by a prolife lady in Canada, who forget her names, on facebook who had this video of the magic birth canal. Oh, yeah, that was funny. Yeah, it's like the birth canalk somehow has this magic power to undue personhood to an individual, and it's some an absurdity, right.

23:10 It is because at what point, I mean you just logically say, okay, at which point in that progression did it suddenly more from human to non human person and nonperson? Yeah, or nine person to person? Yeah. It's sort of ridiculous in this whole notion that you when it takes its first of breath, and when people use that argument, especially, you know, pro pro choice, people who have really no faith in God use that, it's sort of a mechanism to use your book against you, to say you're the Bible actually teaches that it's not a person until it takes its first breath. And sort of where they get that, prince, when I actually heard Christians, at least people who claim to be Christians, use that as almost a way to get out of addressing this issue, which is the moral issue of our day, abortion. But they'll say, well, you know, the Bible tells us that it actually doesn't become a person or a valuable individual until it takes a first breath. And they get that maybe from some other passages, but probably more than anything from this passage in genesis chapter two, very early along in the Bible, okay, where it says in verse seven of Genesis Chapter Two and the Lord formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being. So the implication is he breathed into his nostrils a breath of life.

24:29 Therefore the man became a living being. Right, and that's that's sort of with it. So until it gets a breath of life, it's not a living being, which is not what this passage just talking about. It's an absurdity to imagine that a baby in the womb is not a living being. It is a living me. Of course it is right. Even again, pro choice people in this day and age would not argue. Is it Alife? Yes, it's a life, it's just not a life that's valuable enough to protect. Right have heard is this argument of insolment. It's not a life until it gets a soul. When does it get a soul? It gets a soul, some people say, when it gets its first breath of air. The Bible doesn't teach that. The Bible doesn't say that.

25:10 What we see is this sort of overarching principle in the scripture that God loves and knows us. Why we're still in our mother's way. That's correct. Yeah, so that's that's sort of the overarching principle. We see through the whole Old Testament in the New Testament, that God knows us and loves us even while we're in the womb and that there's not some magical thing that takes place when we enter out of the womb, we breathe in some air that gives us personhood. Right, right, so that you know that that argument again, is is sort of bunking it. But it does take different forms. It does the breath thing, the birth canal thing, the disconnection between the mother and the child, you know. So it's like, okay, because that baby is attached to the mother through you, through her uterine wall, the Placenta is attached there and then through the umbilical cord. That therefore she can do what she wants to. So then a baby can be born.

26:02 I mean, is that what you're saying? A baby can be born still attached to the umbilical cord and then we can kill it. Long as we don't cut that cord, we're good to go. And there are some people that say yeah, that, which is another certain it's the slippery slope that is that it goes down. Let's free slopes. No, they don't exist. That's the mentality, right you. You always talk about these slippery slopes and this could happen and that could happen. It's like, well, we talked about that, because it actually does happen. Like the whole slippery slope of you know, when we talk about euthanasia and assisted suicide and people say, yeah, people should be willing or people should be able to choose to have a doctor put them to death, to have them youth and eyes if they have, you know, issues with dementia or if they have issues with whatever. And then this story that I had shared with you a couple days ago, yesterday I believe, was about a young lady, I think she's twenty one, twenty two years old, who had some trauma and something was done to her in the past and she carried that trauma with her and she went to her psychiatrist and psychiatrist have tried to help or try to help her, could not help her basically told her hate. Listen, there's no hope for you. I think the story played out in the Netherlands, which is no surprise right. Right, there's really no hope for you, the best thing you can do is just let us euthanize you, and they did.

27:15 For you know this, this young lady who had, you know, her whole life ahead of her. Yes, she had some issues going on, she had some depression and all that stuff, but the people who are supposed to help her out of that depression basically tell her you're better off dead. Right man, that's a slippery slipping slide right west, slide so far down that human life doesn't have value. Exactly, exactly, in so many of the ills that we face now today, it's a society or because of that devaluation of human life that is so shootings, I think, are an example. Yeah, absolutely. How can you two? How can we raise our children to believe it's not okay to go off all of your classmates when it's the law of the land that we can kill your siblings as long as they're in the womb? Yeah, so, the the Bible does use the same word for baby, whether in the womb or outside of the woman.

28:06 I think that's another very compelling evidence that chapter two, when it talks about right John the Baptist in the womb. He lipt in his mother's womb when Mary came in with Jesus in her womb. Right, the word child, the child left in the womb. Right, breathos, Brefoos is the same word. Later on in Luke. Yeah, we're Jesus. The born Jesus outside of the womb is called breathos, which is bababy. It means baby. So baby in the womb is the same to God as the baby. So in the New Testament, God is equating an unborn child with a born child. Yes, wow, that's not a surprise now, you know, because we see through again that pattern in the scripture absolutely values this in the women outside the way. Yeah, yeah, I mean Jeremiah was supposed appointed as a prophet while yet in the womb. Yeah, appointed a prophet.

28:53 Well, is God appointing a nonhuman and not baby Blab of kiss you as a prophet? Yeah, okay. So onto number three, and they all kind of connect there. there. There's very similar arguments behind all these issues. But this one, of course, is the rattling and cry here for the Pro Choice Smith ment or my body, body choice, my body, my choice. Yeah, I mean that one sort of you know it again in the same line of this this sovereignty over your own body and which we agree with that right. I mean, if someone goes and has their appendix removed, I'm not going to be standing there telling them don't have your beach.

29:34 Right, I don't want to have control over their bodies. Right. But where your bodily autonomy ends is where your bodily autonomy and decisions you make with your body affect other people. Correct. You know the example. Of course you have bodily autonomy over your hand. Yes, you do. You can, you know, do some of the things you want to with your hand, but there are things you cannot do with your hand. It's because they violate another person's right, which is you can't ball your hand in a fifth connect with somebody's face. Right, because your action and your bodily autonomy has now affected another person. Right. In the same way, with abortion, your bodily autonomy, when you go into an abortion clinic and you decide you're going to pay someone money to kill it, the child that's inside of you, that sort of is the threshold. Right, you've already went outside of bodily autonomy to violate the bodily autonomy of another person, that baby inside the womb. Right, and of course, this is built on the premise that the baby inside the womb is just an ananimate object. So you see how it aboulates. All of these arguments relate exactly because they would say, well, this is not another body, right. But but then of course, the logically. You know, well, if it's not another body, than the mother has two heads and forearms and four legs. Know it is another body. It is not your body. That child is a whole separate body with distinct and separate human DNA, distinct and separate blood, distinct and separate heartbeat and it at a different rate. The heart is beating about three

31:04 times, two to three times faster than the MOM's heart. So so, yeah, and and you know, Biblically, I love this, this verse from First Corinthian six one thousand nine, Hun to and twenty. Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own, you were brought bought at a price. Therefore, honor God with your body. So we in a sense we even bodily autonomy. Well, honestly, biblically, we are not our own. If you're in Christ he bought us. Yeah, hate the penalty that we owed for our sin, and our bodies are now a temple of the Lord, to be used by God for a glorious purpose. Yeah, for his glory. So okay, so, so, and and one last point on on my body, my choice. You know it it in your example of, you know, bodily autonomy. In there, in there, in the portion center in this this baby is is being killed. Well, it's legal, and that's the other argument that I've heard. Well, it's my body, this baby is in my body and I'm being given legal rights by our country to remove this portion of my body that I don't want and I want to be an incubator, I've heard.

32:29 Yeah, this baby. So is it because it's legal? Is Is that then? Would God have us find that to be morally fine, right, which is, you know, kind of an absurdity, right. I mean, just because stuff is legal doesn't mean God is okay with it. Exactly. Doesn't mean that. You know, even if we're thinking it from a secular perspective, there's a bunch of stuff that in our history. You know, slavery is one of those things with legal but I don't think we look back that and say, you know, people should have had a right to do that. Why? Why would we say that? That's wrong? Because it's sort of that bodily atommy thing, right, yeah, you're right to own another person's property. Is Not actually a right that God gives or that government's should give, because you're then affecting the bodily autonomy of another person, you know. Yeah, and you know the really that the the issue lies in with pro choice people, their unwillingness to view the baby in the womb as a human being, as a life that's valuable enough to protect. They can't, they can't and allow what they call the woman's right to choose, because the women's right to choose, they're saying, is to choose abortion.

33:44 And the only way they can support that really, I think, for them to feel like they are decent human beings, is to say it's not. Yeah, it's not a person. Yeah. So, okay, anything else on on that one? All right, let's go into number four. Abortion is between a woman and her doctor. It is none of your business. You ever hear that one before? I have heard that one. Yeah, and you know that's not something that we hear commonly inside. While counseling. Really it's not one of the objections that we hear, even from pro choice people. But as you're talking about the issue of abortion on a national level and a sort of a political level, yeah, that's what you hear a lot. That's right. Politicians are terrible doctors, some of the signage that you see, right, and and that sort of thing. And and so it's between a woman and her doctor. And now what's implied with that?

34:34 I mean, are we talking about between a woman and the OB doctor that she sees on a regular basis? I mean even that, of course, of be we're talking about another person that will die if she has an abortion. But really, when they say it's between a woman and her doctor, what they mean it's between the woman who's paying for an abortion and the abortionist, right, who she sees for like five minutes, right, who she's never met. Most of these women going into an abortion clinic, I mean we I've had conversations with probably thousands, and I'm sure you've had conversations with of thousands, or at least hundreds, of women going in. If you ask him so, who is your doctor today? Who's going to be your abortionist? They have no clue. That's right. So how can it be between her and her doctor making this decision whenever? She's not even going to even talk to the doctor, until she goes, until he walks in the room, that do the five minute abortion procedure or give her the Little Cup with the pills in it? It's not between her and her doctors. And I've been told by many people leaving that that have come and talk to us, that that doctor, the abortionist, never said it word. Yeah, that there was never any discussion. So this decision between the woman and her doctor is non existence. Yeah, they're in there is a relationship. Oh yeah, no, exactly. How about that? It's none of your business that half of it. Is it a business to so it's none of your business, which it's like, okay, it's none of my business, even though innocent people are being killed, it's none of my business to intervene.

35:55 You know, somebody commented a couple days ago on our social media page. We shared a testimony of a mom that chose life, saw her baby on the ultrasound, whose life for her baby in this person, this pro abortion person, commented and said, you know, you should leave women alone. It's none of your business what they do with their bodies. And my response wasn't a sort of snarky but it made a point like, okay, if Christians, if we see innocent people being killed, if we're going to be good followers of Jesus, then we're going to actually go and do something about that. If Christians in human history were just to mind our own business, then we wouldn't have the majority of the hospitals that exist, the majority of the relief organizations that exist. I mean, you think about you know, I asked pro abortion people when they when they bring that up. You guys should mind your own business. You Christians are Christianity has has done so much damage in history. I'm like, well, named for me five hospitals in the United States are in the immediate area and if they were in the name five hospitals, at least three, probably all five, but at least three of those hospitals are going to be Christian hospitals, presenting hospital, Methodist Hospital, Baptist Hospital, right, yeah, it's like Christians are not mining their own business, they're actually building hospital or they're actually you know, I'll ask him. I said named for me five relief organizations. You know ministries or organizations that do things to help other people. You know, Red Cross is one that comes to mind right Samaritan's purse or me comes to mind. SALVATION ARMY COMES TO MIND, World Vision, World Vision comes to mind, compassion international, all these these groups across the the the world. Even if you're

37:27 the name five relief organizations, I bet you the majority of those organizations were started by Christians who didn't mind their own business. Exactly right. And I think it was hurricane katrine. It was one of the big hurricanes where the government really blew it. They and I maybe it was Katrine night. Every real it was. Which one? But but the the GOL blows it a lot. Well, they did, but but in this one they really blew it and they were just what's not help? MM? Except from the Christian it was the Christian organizations that rushed in to help those victims from that hurricane that saved the day. Yeah, minding, not minding, they're I mean, basically, so when someone tells me, consider you talking about abortion and thinking about abortion and they see, mind your own business, what they're really saying to me is turn a blind eye. You know, here's here's a group of people whose lives are being destroyed by this thing called abortion. And you don't mean just the babies, right, yeah, the women, women, the woman parents, so the man whose lives are affected by it.

38:24 I mean this thing is like a like a cancer in society. Destroys families, that destroys marriages, it destroys relationships, it destroys young men and young women, of course, and it destroys the lives of babies. And it's like, I can't turn a blind eye to that. Like, if I truly believe that abortion is murder that destroys in innocent life, you're asking me, pro abortion person, to deny my faith, to deny what my Lord said to do, which is to love my neighbor as myself. Yeah, and rescue those being out of way. Really, you know, people are saying a lot of times, and I sort of rephrase this to pro abortion people, sometimes I'd be like, so what you're saying is, rather than carrying through the the convictions that I have myself, I should embrace your convictions.

39:08 My conviction is that the unborn child is out a life that deserves to be protected. Your conviction is that it's not. So what you're saying is I should abandon my convictions and I should embrace yours. Are you trying to force your morality on me? You know, you take away my choice. Are just taking away my choice to believe how I see fit from this, this book that you so vehemently opposed. Right, I I think it's God's word. Am I okay to think that? I'm okay to believe that that's in less? So, yeah. Well, lastly, honestly, yes, I mean that's the attack. The attack is on the book, on the Bible, right, on what God's word says, and this unchangeable truth, the foundation of everything that we are and believe, is, is is being attacked in our society. Yeah, absolutely, and of course, along with that comes this value of human life, this intrinsic value that human beings have above and beyond other creatures. Yeah, it doesn't mean in the sense that, you know, in our all, because we're so cute and precious whatever, were somehow better than every other animal. It's not that at all.

40:13 It's just that human beings are the only creature that is made in God's image. That's right, that holds this image of God. Yeah, and weird like supposed to be those who had a conversation of the pro choice lady yesterday and she talked about I'm not sure that human beings are more valued more than other animals. So what other creature on the face of the planet has been given a charge to take care of the planet? Like you don't see whales going and taking care of the planet, making sure we recycle, you know, right, because they're the ones that we're taking care of. Like we're sort of this this, this, as the Bible says, this rule or under God over the creation. Right, befoot, fruitful, multiply, subdue the earth and fill it. We're supposed to subdue or have authority over the earth. Yeah, and we're given the charge to take care of the planet, all right, and we're given charge to take care of it. We're not there to trample it and destroy it. We Love we love the whales, I love the way. Yes, but human beings are a special part of God's creation. There's absolutely no doubt about it. He tells us that that we Lon are made in his image. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and in terms of that it's none of your business. I think I may have already said this first, but I'll say it again because it's such an important one. Proverbs twelve, if you say, but we knew nothing about this. Does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does Not he who guard your life know it? Will he not repay everyone according to what

41:44 they have done? We can't say we don't know what abortion is. We can't say anymore like they could. Actually, when abortion was legalized or made the law of the land through the Supreme Court decision, they didn't have the ultrasounds that we have now. They really didn't have the depth of understanding, yeah, of what that baby was and how well developed that baby was at such an early age. But we do. We see it. Not only do we have God's word that says that baby is valuable from the moment of conception, but we have windows into the womb and we see that child and we know the devastation of abortion. And so much of the aftermath of abortion is buried and covered up and we're told that we're lying all the time when we cite any of the research that talks of any negative after effects abortion.

42:35 But we do know the truth. And for us to do nothing about it, according to this person, many God will hold us to account yeah, we are not. We can't turn a blond, we cannot turn upon yeah, exactly. Okay, let's do our fifth one. All right, bringing up the right. This is our last one. Why should more unwanted children come into the world? It is irresponsible. Go help the babies who are already born, and of course lately. And what about those babies on the board? What about those children at the border who are put in cages? And that's any thing. And of course that implies that Christians aren't doing something out. That's a big priest suffer. So that's right. Yeah, and the thing, you know, I hear a lot of times wance, you adopt some of these children out of falster care, and it's like, well, if you look at the statistics of people that are doing that, it's Christians. It's overwhelming majority of people who are in the Fauster caure system, who are not in the fausecure system, like part of it, but getting children out of the FAULTER cres cract are Christians who were making the sacrifices and doing the things that are necessary to falster these children, people who are going down through the border and and meeting the needs there with these people who are come across the board, overwhelmingly Christians, right, going meeting the needs, bringing practical AIDS, Americans, purs other ministries that are there are, you know, or there because of the Christian values that we hold right. And you know, this is this, is it, like all these things, just a red herring? Right, if you if you really value, you know, I say the probortion people. You know, they say, if you really value to one of the ladies the other day, she said,

44:07 if you really value lives of children, want you get down to the border. I'm like, well, why aren't you there? Exactly said, you know what, if you really think women get you by sticket, you should you just give us the word. Well, I said, well, if you think that the oppression of women is what's going on here from us, we're pressing these women, harassing them, and you think that the issue of women's oppression is bad, and I do too, but if you really feel that strongly about it, then go to Saudi Arabia, where women can't even travel a car. Right, I'm being silly about it, but yeah, you know, seriously, it's like, yeah, if you, if you really think this is a big thing, you'll put your money where your mouth is. You're telling me to put my money where my mouth is. And actually there are churches all over Charlotte who are Bible preaching churches. Who are the ones that are going out and reaching out and who we get volunteers from?

44:52 Who are the people that are sending aid to these these people in the border who are helping out families with foster care? I think we have within our ministry three families that come to mind immediately. Their foster care right now, like they're fostering kids. Yeah, so it's like, you know, it's so the presupposition is wrong and in the fad they're accusing something without even knowing. Yeah, there are, there, anyone is, but, but, but the the other part of that is because we are concerned with the unborn and we're speaking out against abortion. Somehow that's not valid unless we are speaking out against all injustice, yes, and and every every terrible thing that afflicts humanity. And you know, they wouldn't make that same argument if if I was giving to the cancer society, they wouldn't say, well, you can't give to the cancer society. Why you why aren't you giving to the heart society or whatever? That one's called, or the diabetes society or fighting kidney disease. Yeah, no, that's Ludacris. That's like his is this idea of this, if you're not doing everything, that you don't have a right to do anything. That's right, which is just sir, all it is again. It's like, if you don't embrace my convictions, then you're not actually carrying through your convictions. Like, what are you saying? They're like, what are your convictions? And reality is that if you look at, you know, a lot of the pro choice people, at least that I interact with, and they say you should be doing this, I'm like, are you doing that? Like lead the way, you know, start

46:23 an organization that helps kids at the border. Lead the way, and you know, but I'm telling you, who's leading the way is actually Christian, Christians, exactly Christians who believe that life begins at conception. That's right. They're everywhelming. A majority of people who are at the border are people that would would identify with us. Yeah, religiously. Yeah, that's true. That's true. And and in that question and number five, why should more unwanted children, you know, unwanted children. Aren't there more people lining up for adoption, desiring deeply to adopt a child. Yeah, then there are babies to adopt. Yeah, and it's out of there. You know, it's so prohibitively expensive for them to do that. So they're someone wants these children. Well, absolutely, there aren't. I don't think there is any such thing as unwanted children, right, I mean according to what we see in the word of God. Sure, it's like, okay, every child is formed in the womb by the hand of God. God had a plan for these children and they're not unwanted by him. Right, and just because we have, US as a society, have rejected, yeah, the truth of God's word, that God the children are blessing from the Lord, doesn't mean that God somehow abandons that truth. Right, as a church, we're supposed to uphold that truth. Children are a blessing from there and and of value. And you know, Matthew, ten, twenty, nine, thirty one, about two sparrows sold for a penny, yet not one of them falls to the ground outside your father's care. Even the very heads of your

47:57 head are all numbered. Well, that's true of you, me and and every unborn baby that every one of us, every human life is of sacred value before God, and I think what we've we've kind of pointed out in all of these issues is is that is what is the the underlying theme in our in our prolife, counter to every argument presented to us. As bottom line, are human beings of value and are we called the pond to protect in us into human life and to protect all human life? Is All human life sacred? Yeah, before God, and we would answer yes, yeah, unborn in the born. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, you know, to wrap that up, Hoope, this was a blessing to those who joined in and will maybe do another podcast similar to this where we talk about other pro choice arguments and try to talk through those. Hoope, this is a blessing and helps you to helps to provoke thought. You know, I think we need to think certainly rationally and because of that we think biblically, biblically because God's work is very rational and it gives us some rational progressions of thought, that sort of thing. I do want to encourage you to go. We have a website that we've established nationally for people who want to get involved with sidewalk counseling and get equipped and get trained and that sidewalks for lifecom, at sidewalks at number four and Lifecom and that has some training and equipping stuff on there to train and equip you to be an effective sidewalk counselor.

49:30 And there's some videos on there. There's some articles. Were putting content out there on a regular basis to encourage people in sidewalk counseling locally. Our ministry website is Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org. You can connect with me. My email addresses d parks at cities for lifecom and Vicky is v Costi Org at cities for Lifecom, so you can connect with her. We'd like to hear some ideas that you have, maybe some subjects you'd like for us to cover, some pro life subjects and light of the Gospel. We did continue to put podcasts out there. We encourage you to share this podcast with other people, leave a review, shoot me an email and let me know how we can improve this thing. We want to we want to be a blessing. This is not just for us to promote ourselves promote our ministry.

50:10 This is to encourage the body of Christ to to approach the issue of abortion in light of the Gospel, because the Gospel is the solution to the problem of abortion. Just like every other eel of society, the Gospel is a solution. So be blessed and in share this, this podcast, with your friends and family. Use, Milan, use give me. Will cost me my life, but these two precious inside