Should We Use The Word Murder To Describe Abortion?

WEBVTT100:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.040You can yell all you want,you can use all the words you want,200:00:03.040 --> 00:00:06.240if the holy, Holy Spirit doesn'tconvict that woman and she doesn't respond300:00:06.280 --> 00:00:09.720to the conviction, she's going towalk in there and kill her child.400:00:09.960 --> 00:00:16.160I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me Lord,500:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.519I am yours, I am yours. I'm welcome to the Gospel Center600:00:21.559 --> 00:00:27.000Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designedto equip, encourage and challenge you in700:00:27.039 --> 00:00:31.079pro life ministry, and always witha focus on the Gospel. Stay tuned.800:00:33.079 --> 00:00:44.280I felt show passish, touch yourheart. Use Me. Welcome back900:00:44.320 --> 00:00:48.479to the Gospel Centered Prolife podcast.Appreciate you guys joining us. My name1000:00:48.479 --> 00:00:53.000is Daniel Parks. I serve asthe West Coast Regional Shepherd for love life.1100:00:53.359 --> 00:00:57.600Actually am located here in Charlotte,though, and I'm joined as always,1200:00:57.600 --> 00:01:02.079about Vicki Cassi Org. Hey everyone, and Vicky Cassi Org is our1300:01:02.079 --> 00:01:07.040director of sidewalk training now, soshe does a lot of training people,1400:01:07.519 --> 00:01:12.879actually nationally. She's taking several tripsaround the country and probably will take quite1500:01:12.879 --> 00:01:18.640a few more and helping the sidewalkteams get more healthy and just given some1600:01:18.680 --> 00:01:23.120tips and encouragement to those who areserving on the sidewalks in our various cities1700:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.760under love life. We produce thispodcast for you guys, our love life1800:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.439teams, but also for others whoare maybe not a part of of life1900:01:30.439 --> 00:01:33.959but are involved in sidewalk out reachministry. We do this to encourage you2000:01:34.000 --> 00:01:40.079guys, to give you some principles, some tips, some scripture. We2100:01:40.159 --> 00:01:42.400want to be based in the Gospel. We are based in the Gospel and2200:01:42.439 --> 00:01:48.519the word of God and just takesome of what we have learned and so2300:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.480it into you, guess. Wehope that this podcast does that for you,2400:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.200guess. So introduce our topic realquick, Viki. Well, in2500:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.920in short, it's whether we shoulduse the word murder or not, okay,2600:01:57.959 --> 00:02:00.799and how to use the word murderif we decide we should, while2700:02:00.799 --> 00:02:05.280we're on the sidewalk of a ofan abortion center. There are so many2800:02:05.280 --> 00:02:10.719differing opinions on this and people oftenfeel very strongly about this sure whether they2900:02:10.719 --> 00:02:15.159should use that word or not.So I really thought we should address it3000:02:15.199 --> 00:02:22.120head on. Yeah, because Ithink our heart as a ministry is to3100:02:22.360 --> 00:02:28.639encourage women to engage with us,to talk with us, and so what3200:02:28.680 --> 00:02:32.919we do there, the words weuse the the things we say, our3300:02:32.960 --> 00:02:42.479demeanor, our tone are really alldirected towards bringing the woman to come and3400:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.479talk with us. Yeah, andthere are definitely things that we have observed3500:02:46.520 --> 00:02:53.319over the many years we've done thisthat decrease the likelihood that the woman is3600:02:53.319 --> 00:02:57.080going to come talk with us.We want to share the Gospel, we3700:02:57.120 --> 00:03:02.439want to ultimately hopefully be used tosave that child's life, the unborn baby's3800:03:02.479 --> 00:03:07.560life, and if the woman isn'twilling to engage with us, we think3900:03:07.680 --> 00:03:14.120it's less likely they're going to makea choice for life and make a choice4000:03:14.199 --> 00:03:19.439that will allow them to continue talkingwith us where we can really express the4100:03:19.439 --> 00:03:22.840truth of the Gospel in its fullness. Yeah, and this kind of speaks4200:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.639to this dynamic that I spoke aboutsome time ago, I've probably touched right4300:03:25.680 --> 00:03:30.280a couple of times, and thatwe're not just out there to deliver information,4400:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.680but we're out there to start aconversation. We're not out there appealing4500:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.439to the powers that be. That'swhy we often say that sidewalk out reaches4600:03:38.520 --> 00:03:43.240not protesting. We're not picketing abortioncenters. We're not protesting at abortion centers.4700:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.159Protesting and picketing are not wrong,they're not bad, but protesting and4800:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.639picketing is appealing to the powers thatbe, kind of the larger public.4900:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.800This is wrong. We should dosomething about it. I can see that5000:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.560happening, you know, in frontof a front of the Supreme Court or5100:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.599whatever. Right, right, andit certainly could happen in front of an5200:04:00.599 --> 00:04:03.879abortion center. But it's just tome not the best mode of operation there,5300:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.719because we're not just there to appealto the powers that be. Were5400:04:06.759 --> 00:04:12.199there to appeal to those individual mothers. We do want to deliver information,5500:04:12.319 --> 00:04:15.439right, but it's not just deliveringinformation, not just putting out kind of5600:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.240oneliner phrases, even though oneliner phrasesare good. We train people to do5700:04:19.279 --> 00:04:24.240that, right, but those onelinerphrases should be to the end. The5800:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.639end result would be to have aconversation with that mom not just deliver information5900:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.040to her. Right now, Ithink we have to start, because we6000:04:32.079 --> 00:04:38.560are biblically based. Like we don'tI'm not just looking to please the women6100:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.680going into the abortion center. I'mnot just looking to please people that are6200:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.879looking in our ministry to thank youguys, say mean things or whatever.6300:04:45.879 --> 00:04:47.839I want to please the Lord.I want to honored, Yesus and everything6400:04:47.879 --> 00:04:54.319that I do. And so,you know, looking at the idea of6500:04:54.360 --> 00:05:01.439abortion being murder, is his abortionmurder biblically speaking, and I think we'll6600:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.319get two more in depth of shouldwe use the word murder in this context?6700:05:05.399 --> 00:05:12.399I'll just say right right away.Murder is what it's taking an innocent6800:05:12.519 --> 00:05:19.360human life, the intentional taking,with premeditation of an innocent human life with6900:05:19.519 --> 00:05:24.959knowledge. Okay, so we firsthave to establish, hopefully won't have to7000:05:25.040 --> 00:05:29.279labor long on this, right.Is that child inside the women innocent human7100:05:29.319 --> 00:05:31.279life? Yeah, of course,as far as you know, the most7200:05:31.279 --> 00:05:34.560innocent of human life that there is. They have not had a chance to7300:05:34.639 --> 00:05:40.000yet send. Yeah, yeah,so these are human beings. The Bible7400:05:40.040 --> 00:05:44.199tells us God formed us in ourmother's wombs one hundred thirty nine. Bible7500:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.399tells us in Jeremiah, chapter one, Verse Five, before I formed you,7600:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.519a new you. So God knowsus even before he formed us.7700:05:50.560 --> 00:05:58.399God formed us. He acknowledges thehumanity of the preborn. Right in the7800:05:58.439 --> 00:06:04.240word of God there's an acknowledgement veryconsistently of the humanity of the preborn.7900:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.879This idea is and I've heard it, maybe a little bit more recently than8000:06:09.920 --> 00:06:15.920in the past, but this ideathat the Bible doesn't say anything about children8100:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.000in the womb, that the Bibledoesn't give any value. The Bible actually8200:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.240teaches that we aren't human beings untilwe breathe our first breath. That's such8300:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.199a bunk idea. We did apodcast about that. Right for every quickly8400:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.199and easily disputed by the Bible ofyours. So I don't think we have8500:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.079to rehash that, but we dohave to establish the fact that, yes,8600:06:33.160 --> 00:06:39.000abortion is is murder, right.Yeah, it's taking the inscent life8700:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.800of a human being and maybe,more specifically, like I think the Webster8800:06:42.879 --> 00:06:46.800Dictionary, is taking an innocent lifeby malice of four thoughts. So you8900:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.800have malice. It's not an accidentalthing. Yeah, and it was premeditated,9000:06:51.879 --> 00:06:56.240was thought out. That's right.And is that what abortion is?9100:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.240Yeah, yeah, and you know, I would absolutely agree. And yes,9200:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.360it is there. There's no doubtin my mind that abortion is murder9300:07:02.360 --> 00:07:06.879of an innocent human being. Yeah. Now, let me say this too,9400:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.759and this could I'm not going torabbit trail on this, but this9500:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.800is something to think about, becausemurder, according to the word of God,9600:07:15.839 --> 00:07:20.079like God's Word is the standard.Right, the laws of man should9700:07:20.120 --> 00:07:24.160not seek to take the word ofGod and bring them on their level.9800:07:24.279 --> 00:07:28.720Right. The Laws of Man,which were originally the way this this country9900:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.279was kind of framed, is tobe based on the laws of God.10000:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.079Right. Unfortunately, we've taken thelaw of God and try to bring it10100:07:34.120 --> 00:07:38.120down to our level and we've takenthe laws of man and try to bring10200:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.839them above God's God's Word and God'struth. Yeah, currently, in these10300:07:42.959 --> 00:07:46.839United States of America, and Iknow we're looking at on the verge of10400:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.920maybe rovy Wade being overturned or whatever. I'm not going to get into all10500:07:48.959 --> 00:07:55.519of that, but currently we don'tview as a nation abortion as murder.10600:07:55.639 --> 00:08:00.800MMM, we think that it's wehave said it's in essence as a nation10700:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.319that these human beings inside the wombwith they're not actually human beings, they're10800:08:05.399 --> 00:08:09.319just, you know, blobs oftissue, clumps, the cells there beholding10900:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.920to their mother whatever she decides aswell. They have no rights and and11000:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.360other themselves. Yeah, so isabortion murder? Well, in a sense11100:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.399no in these United States, butit should be. Yeah, in God's11200:08:22.439 --> 00:08:26.360word it clearly is murder. Yeah, God's word, we're going to stand11300:08:26.399 --> 00:08:31.639before him and give an account forwhat he says, for his standard and11400:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.039US violating his standard, not astandard that we set for ourselves. Right,11500:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.720yeah, so I just want tomake that clear. Yeah. Now,11600:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.080of course, this conversation that we'rehaving in this podcast is not really11700:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.840that of it. Just want toset that stage. We're more talking about11800:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.679and from in front of the abortioncenters. Should we say, don't murder11900:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.519your baby, right, right,yea kind of sad. That's basically it.12000:08:54.679 --> 00:08:58.039Or were even a bit stronger.Well, look good. Bit Stronger12100:08:58.080 --> 00:09:03.919would be to say you murderer.Yeah, or to wear this happened recently12200:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.879where there were a couple of groupsout there that we're not with us,12300:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.480but and they were definitely prolife,but they were wearing shirts that said murder12400:09:13.840 --> 00:09:20.279with bloody babies on them, andthey were and they were calling out about12500:09:20.279 --> 00:09:24.279these people would burn in hell andthat they would because they were murdering their12600:09:24.360 --> 00:09:30.159child. And the the anger andthe noise and the shouting match that went12700:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.799on became so aggressive and loud thatwe were unable to call out to the12800:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.720women about hope or help that mighthelp them to choose their mind. So12900:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.759that was a lot of what sparkedthis this podcast. But just what you13000:09:43.840 --> 00:09:48.639said, we know God's Word isis pretty clear about the unborn. It13100:09:48.799 --> 00:09:54.759is a human being with rights andvalue before God, biblically, because God13200:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.120created that child in his image.So we know that. And and the13300:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.159it he hates, the hands thatshed in a SIM blood. We know13400:10:01.200 --> 00:10:07.720that God would not have a motherdo this. Right. But going to13500:10:07.799 --> 00:10:15.480the Bible also then, for howyou deal with someone in sin, I13600:10:15.480 --> 00:10:22.639think is very valuable and I wasI was thinking about how does Jesus approach13700:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.840sin? Yeah, and he approachesit in different ways with different people.13800:10:26.960 --> 00:10:33.480But I in my reading of theBible, the times when he is harshest13900:10:33.519 --> 00:10:39.440and must angry is when there's aheart that basically he knows it's so hard14000:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.240it's not going to change. Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, but14100:10:43.279 --> 00:10:48.000you know the Pharisees or the peoplethat he calls names are, and Paul14200:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.279as well, that when there's namecalling, it's too such a hard heart14300:10:54.320 --> 00:11:00.320that they they know, God knows, Jesus knows at least that person is14400:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.919steeped in their sense to a degree. Thinking about name calling. We're talking14500:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.440about you brute of vipers. Rightmakes dry. Yeah, sons of your14600:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.279father the devil. Yeah, Imean pretty pretty harsh language. He reserves14700:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.440that, though, for those thathe knows are an it. Correct me14800:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.720if I'm wrong on this, butdo any of those people that he addresses14900:11:18.799 --> 00:11:24.200in that way ever change their heart? I mean, we don't know.15000:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.639We don't know you direct like thePharisees repented because I called them right route15100:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.960of vipers. I do believe thatthey're likely some of the Pharisees that were15200:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.759involved in rejecting and ultimately crucifying Jesus. That maybe the book of acts came15300:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.519to know the Lord because Jesus,or Peter Says at one point this Christ15400:11:41.600 --> 00:11:46.200him. You crucified. God hasmade both Lord and Christ, and you15500:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.879know they Bible says they were cutto the heart and said what must we15600:11:48.919 --> 00:11:50.879do to be saved? Yeah,so, without being into a big kind15700:11:50.919 --> 00:11:56.200of priscussion about that, likely,but the point is those who are in15800:11:56.240 --> 00:12:01.000pride, arrogance and obstinates against God. He has no problem with Jesus.15900:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.159Had No problem with you brutal vipers, you murders, you snake's children.16000:12:05.200 --> 00:12:09.240Are He that? Yeah, thatwas his right kind of mode of operation,16100:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.840right, concerning them, but itwas only, it was usually,16200:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.600or maybe only in the response ofthat kind of an attitude. Yeah,16300:12:16.600 --> 00:12:24.399but in the generally when he confrontedsin, it was very direct. Yeah,16400:12:24.600 --> 00:12:33.759but it was not what I wouldcall confrontational. And the the example16500:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.000that I saw was in John forI happen to be doing a Bible study16600:12:39.080 --> 00:12:43.720that that was talking about the womanat the well, and I read that16700:12:43.879 --> 00:12:52.879story many times and and I'm readinglooking for how does Jesus respond to what16800:12:52.919 --> 00:13:01.279looks like a clear sin? Yeah, he never really responds directly confronting that16900:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.799sin. Yeah. So this isthe story of the woman at the whale.17000:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.440Rightly know? Yeah, and weknow from that story, in that17100:13:07.480 --> 00:13:15.000interaction that she had with Jesus,that she said good, call your husband17200:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.279and she said, I don't havea husband. I'm paraphrasing, and of17300:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.159course he calls her out. Hey, yeah, we know that the or17400:13:22.159 --> 00:13:24.000I know that the guy that you'rewith is not your husband, right,17500:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.559that so that's adultery or fornication,and you've had five husbands, which again17600:13:28.679 --> 00:13:35.639is if elation of God's law.He doesn't call her an adulter, right,17700:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.480he doesn't call her a fornicator,he doesn't call her anything. He17800:13:39.519 --> 00:13:45.919doesn't even he just makes that statementand then moves on. Yeah, and17900:13:45.919 --> 00:13:52.919and I was thinking why, whydoesn't he blast her with convicting versus?18000:13:52.960 --> 00:14:00.000And instead he in essence applauds orhonesty in saying, you know that she18100:14:00.039 --> 00:14:05.840currently doesn't have a husband. Andthe all he he doesn't even say sin.18200:14:05.960 --> 00:14:11.240No more like he does in otherpassages. He did. He doesn't.18300:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.879And and I'm thinking, well,why? I read a few commentaries18400:14:15.960 --> 00:14:20.200on why. I'm not going togo into those, but but I started18500:14:20.240 --> 00:14:26.039looking at the result. What wasthe result? She is still questioning,18600:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.600she says, could this be theMessiah? So it's not like she's totally18700:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.320convinced. I don't think not withthat kind of language. Could this be18800:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.000the Messiah? He knew everything aboutme. But she goes and she tells18900:14:37.000 --> 00:14:45.399others the Tash. Her testimony isso convicting that the townspeople go find him19000:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.919and it says many are saved.Yeah, as a result of what sounds19100:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.559like kind of a questioning faith,but at least a beginning sense that he19200:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.799might be who he says he is. Yeah, and and she's in in19300:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.799essence, becomes one of the firstAdvan less, right. Yeah. So19400:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.159kind of springboard off of this storyand maybe get a little more in depth19500:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.639and kind of glean some principles forour context. Yeah, let's remember that19600:15:09.720 --> 00:15:15.440this story is one of Jesus havinga one on one conversation. Paid.19700:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.200He's not calling out across a parkinglot, right, yeah, he's not.19800:15:18.399 --> 00:15:22.840He's not kind of street preaching toa whole village, yeah, of19900:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.919people. He's having a oneonone conversation. Yeah, and and certainly could.20000:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.240He could in this situation, sayyou're an adulter. His perception, though,20100:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.720was that her heart was soft.That's at least the way I'm reading20200:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.840it. He was very relational withher. Yep, again, he could20300:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.679have called on her an adulter,because she was, but he didn't.20400:15:41.879 --> 00:15:48.159And but notice what he does do. He perceives her humility and her reception20500:15:48.320 --> 00:15:54.519of his of what he was saying, and kind of look at it.20600:15:54.720 --> 00:16:00.519So he does spell out her sinand her need very clearly here. As20700:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.720he talks about water. You know, yes, says, you come seeking20800:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.799this water, but I have waterthat he who drinks of it will never20900:16:07.960 --> 00:16:14.080thirst again. So he's comparing reallyhimself to what she's so she has had21000:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.200five husbands and now she's with aguy she's not married to. He's seeking21100:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.159something. Yeah, she's seeking water. Air Quotes Right. Yeah, Jesus21200:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.200is saying, in a sense,you're seeking water, you're seeking fulfillment with21300:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.120men, but understand that the waterthat I have the fulfillment, because that's21400:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.360the symbol, the symbolism. Weneed water, we need this fulfillment of21500:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.080water in our lives. The wateryou've been seeking after with these men is21600:16:37.120 --> 00:16:41.720never going to feel you, butthe water that I give, that water21700:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.360will you, will quench your thirstyand you'll never be thirsty again. So,21800:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.080yeah, he is confronting her sin, he is confronting her pursuit of21900:16:49.159 --> 00:16:56.240Sin, but he's also showing heractually, there there's another option. You22000:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.799don't have to continue to pursue sin, and I think we can do that22100:16:59.879 --> 00:17:03.759too. Now we do have tobe careful because you can say, well,22200:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.839you know, there are women comingto the abortion center who are prideful22300:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.039and arrogant, and certainly there are, and so our response could be,22400:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.559as they're walking in I don't wantyour eff and help. You know,22500:17:11.640 --> 00:17:17.039we've heard it right. I don'twant you guys are out here judging people.22600:17:17.119 --> 00:17:18.759You get, you know, yougot the hard hearts that come across.22700:17:18.759 --> 00:17:22.680It's very phariseeical M and so wecould say, well, since Jesus22800:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.640called the Pharisees a Brood of Vipers, then now I can call out back22900:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.160across the parking lot to a younglady who's hardhearted and say, well,23000:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.079you're a filthy murderer, right,and you could be perfectly justified. Well,23100:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.839can and maybe you're going to makethis point, but can I just23200:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.839entercede that that there is a differencebetween Jesus and his knowledge of the human23300:17:42.920 --> 00:17:49.240heart and us and our ability totruly see, because in those situations,23400:17:49.240 --> 00:17:56.160invariably those really angry people, ifyou can get into a conversation with them23500:17:56.200 --> 00:18:03.400and break through their defensive is,they oftentimes are the ones that are most23600:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.720hurting and you're able to really change. Not Not you, the Holy Spirit23700:18:07.799 --> 00:18:14.039is able to change and and andbring that conversation to a much better place.23800:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.680Yeah, yeah, the reality is, of course we don't know human23900:18:17.799 --> 00:18:19.920hearts. That's right. Jesus does, right, yeah, but even if24000:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.880we were to know their kind offull scope of their hearts, and there24100:18:23.920 --> 00:18:29.440I'm sure there are people that comein that are just as obstinate and just24200:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.480as wicked as the Pharisees going intothe boys, I'm sure. Yeah.24300:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.720The reality is, though, wehave to contend with the fact that there24400:18:36.759 --> 00:18:41.839are others who are humbled, who, in their same state that that,24500:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.279are listening to what we're saying.And so if we call it out across24600:18:45.319 --> 00:18:51.640the parking lot, maybe very justifiably, you're a murderer. Maybe we could24700:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.519do that justifiably because they're in apharisee of kind of mindset. We're kind24800:18:56.559 --> 00:19:03.319of putting the Kabbash, if Icould use a technical term, on the24900:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.519other conversations that we might otherwise haveof those who were sitting in their cars,25000:19:06.640 --> 00:19:08.799those you are watching the situation.So we do want to make sure25100:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.240that what we come across as withour words, with our body language,25200:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.839we talk about this a lot,with our facial expressions, as inviting.25300:19:15.839 --> 00:19:22.039We don't want to shut down conversationsthat are happening or that would happen,25400:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.279and so I do think we needto be careful not to come across.25500:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.200Certainly listen. What we're doing isconfrontational enough. Standing in front of a25600:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.640place where children are dying, pleadingwith people not to kill their children,25700:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.160shutting the light of WHO Jesus isat the darkest place in our city.25800:19:36.240 --> 00:19:42.160It's confrontational. The Christians life isa confrontational life. It's a confrontation with25900:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.960darkness. Right, when you liveyour life for Jesus, shining the light26000:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.079of who he is, you're inconfrontation constantly. But we don't need to26100:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.400be unnecessarily confrontational. We don't needto be over the top. If we26200:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.200examine our hearts, a lot oftimes when we respond in anger or we26300:20:00.200 --> 00:20:06.960respond to what we think is maybethis righteous indignation, the reality is we're26400:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.559responding out of angst. Will respondingout of anger and we're responding out of26500:20:11.599 --> 00:20:17.119almost kind of like defending ourselves right. We just can't do that. MMMM.26600:20:17.319 --> 00:20:21.200We have to respond out of love, out of kindness, out of26700:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.039truth. Right, the standard oftruth is God's word. We got US26800:20:25.039 --> 00:20:29.720respond out of that. But we'renot out there to let everybody know how26900:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.799right we are. Right, outthere to let them know that there's one27000:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.680like in this story, who cangive them a drink of water. Yeah,27100:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.920that if they'll take of that water, they'll never thirst again. Yeah,27200:20:41.119 --> 00:20:42.880and we want to draw them tous so that that that we can27300:20:42.920 --> 00:20:47.480have that conversation. But as Iwas thinking about it further, because there27400:20:47.480 --> 00:20:53.359are Zillions of examples where I've seensomeone on the sidewalk very confrontational with the27500:20:53.359 --> 00:20:59.920women and it just turns into ashouting match and and nothing happens, nothing27600:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.880good happens, as opposed to acounselor who is trying to relate and trying27700:21:06.160 --> 00:21:11.480and showing compassion to the women andhearing her that it can d escalate and27800:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.119and then more is than there isa true conversation that's going to happen.27900:21:15.160 --> 00:21:21.480And I was thinking it is notunlike crisis intervention, what we do out28000:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.359on the sidewalk. We are thewomen are in crisis and we are there28100:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.480to try and help them out ofthat crisis. The crisis is there about28200:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.400to kill her baby and that isa something we don't want to to happen.28300:21:34.440 --> 00:21:41.000And so I started looking up andstudying. What do people who study28400:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.200and do crisis intervention? What dothey do? And I came across a28500:21:47.240 --> 00:21:52.640really great article, which we dolink that article in the article that I28600:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.799wrote about this podcast. But itsays the goal of crisis intervention is to28700:21:57.920 --> 00:22:03.000d escalate and in a sense thatis our goal right one of our goals28800:22:03.319 --> 00:22:07.599out there. We don't want tensionsto rise. These women are in crisis,28900:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.960the tensions are high and as soonas that that, if the tensions29000:22:12.000 --> 00:22:18.559are, you know, by ouractions or words, are risen, are29100:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.680raised to an even greater level,we're going to lose the opportunity to intervene29200:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.799because they're going to rush in thatwe have just increased the crisis in their29300:22:26.839 --> 00:22:33.200heart. So the goal is ofa crisis intercessor is to descalate and they29400:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.680gave some tips in this article thatwe're so I thought helpful as a sidewalk29500:22:38.720 --> 00:22:45.279counselor. The first one was fostersupport. Let these women feel that they29600:22:45.359 --> 00:22:51.960are supported, not in their decisionto kill, but in just in the29700:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.480fact there is someone who is herethat cares about you and is willing to29800:22:56.480 --> 00:23:03.680to be there for you to helpyou work through this crisis. And if29900:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.839they feel that support, like someonethat's about to jump off a bridge,30000:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.519if there's someone that is fostering theidea that there is someone here for them,30100:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.039someone to support them. It leadsto a better outcome. Okay,30200:23:17.400 --> 00:23:22.680focus on resolution, of solving theproblem underlying the crisis, and that's something30300:23:22.720 --> 00:23:30.440that if you're just shouting you're aboutto murder your baby, that's actually the30400:23:30.480 --> 00:23:37.640result of the crisis, but itis not looking at what caused the crisis30500:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.480and your focus is not on that. Did does that make sense? Yeah,30600:23:41.799 --> 00:23:47.680so, so one of the thingsthey said that helps to focus on30700:23:47.720 --> 00:23:53.799resolution building that person self image andself confidence, their image. That woman30800:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.839right now has lost the image ofherself as a God. Bear it bearing30900:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.960the image of God and given thebeautiful role as a mother and protector of31000:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.799her child. Yeah, that's herreal self. That should be herself image.31100:24:10.839 --> 00:24:17.240So fostering confidence in that image somehowis would be the role in crisis31200:24:17.279 --> 00:24:22.319intervention. One of the things thatreally spoke to me for a Christ someone31300:24:22.400 --> 00:24:29.759trained in crisis intervention should take aless authoritative, less controlling, less confrontational31400:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.519approach, and you actually will havemore control over the situation. Okay,31500:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.519so you're not shutting it down beforeit even starts, right, you're able31600:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.640to keep the conversation going in,the interaction going, because you're not coming31700:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.480across as being overbearing and an anda jerk. That's right. One of31800:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.640the worst things in any relation isif you turn into a shouting match.31900:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.960Yeah, and then what becomes theissue is not the issue anymore, it's32000:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.160your anger, and that can happenin front of an abortion center. Yes,32100:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.000well, so. So you're tryingto give the person a sense of32200:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.960that he or she is in control, because right now she feels out of32300:25:07.960 --> 00:25:11.960control and she's doing what to herfeels like the easiest solution in someone jumping32400:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.200off the bridge. It's jumping offthe bridge. Yeah, and so you32500:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.240want to give them a sense ofcontrol. You don't have to jump off32600:25:18.279 --> 00:25:23.119the bridge. There are other optionsavailable, which I think feeds right into32700:25:23.279 --> 00:25:30.400what we do out on the sidewalk. The model of intervention they in this32800:25:30.480 --> 00:25:34.839article was called the calf model.Calm, assess and facilitate. Again,32900:25:34.880 --> 00:25:41.279I thought that was great. Calmto decrease the emotional level, because it's33000:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.960at a heightened level in front ofan abortion center. So calm, assess,33100:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.880determine what would be the most appropriateresponse when you know the facts.33200:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.559Well, you're not going to knowthe facts unless you've been able to get33300:25:53.599 --> 00:26:00.200them to come and talk with youand then facilitate promote the most appropriate resolution33400:26:00.200 --> 00:26:06.480based on those facts. We ofcourse, know the most appropriate resolution is33500:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.680saving that child's life, right,but also providing the help right to save33600:26:11.759 --> 00:26:17.440that child's life that woman needs.That's right. Yeah. So, I33700:26:17.440 --> 00:26:22.240mean I think that these principles,I think they're all they're all great and33800:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.200they all are applicable to what we'redealing with when we're dealing with women going33900:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.119into the abortion center. Yeah,kind of to sum this up, we34000:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.799need to just let the Lord dohis thing. US be vessels of the34100:26:34.839 --> 00:26:40.480Lord to speak to their hearts.Yeah, and kind of just slow down.34200:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.119We don't need to just speak outof our own anger or own angster,34300:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.000own like kind of disapproval of whatthat woman is doing. We need34400:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.960to like, you can yell allyou want, you can use all the34500:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.480words you want, if the HolyHoly Spirit doesn't convict that woman and she34600:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.799doesn't respond to the conviction, she'sgoing to walk in there and kill her34700:26:57.880 --> 00:27:04.319child. Yeah. Um, andso there's a scripture here that I thought34800:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.640that I would share that I thinkhas to do with this speaks directly to34900:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.680this and potentially to any not justusing the word murder. I think we're35000:27:12.799 --> 00:27:18.440using. Should we use the wordmurder as a springboard for just how we35100:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.599should operate right, how we shouldcome across? Yes, and so here35200:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.799in Second Timothy Chapter Two, I'veread the scripture before, but I think35300:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.519it's a good one to fresh,to ponder, think, to meditate on35400:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.519in light of the ministry that wedo, since it is a pretty confrontational35500:27:33.519 --> 00:27:40.160and intense ministry. And it sayshere in Verse Twenty Four of Second Timothy35600:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.440Chapter Two, and a servant ofthe Lord must not quarrel but be gentle35700:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.720to all, able to teach,patient in humility, correck correcting those who35800:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.160are in opposition, if God,perhaps, will grant them repentance so that35900:27:52.200 --> 00:27:56.680they may know the truth and thenthey may come to their senses and escape36000:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.000the snare of the devil, havingbeen taken captive by him to do his36100:28:00.000 --> 00:28:07.119will. So this speaks of beinggentle yeah able to teach these sometimes,36200:28:07.160 --> 00:28:11.799these moments, even when we're dealingwith angry women walking into the abortion center,36300:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.160angry men walking their girlfriend into theabortion center, sitting in the bargain36400:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.839lot. We're that's a teaching momentactually for them. We can teach them36500:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.559what God's word says. We canteach them the value of their little baby.36600:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.160We can teach them that God shouldbe their refuge and strength, not36700:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.960abortion. There's a lot of thingsthat we can teach them. Yeah,36800:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.319and it says in humility, correctingthose who are in opposition. We have36900:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.960to take a posture of humility.The Bible says God resists the proud,37000:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.160but he gives grace to the humble, and so if we would humble ourselves,37100:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.440he would give us grace to beable to answer these folks. And37200:28:45.519 --> 00:28:49.119it says that we want to beable to answer them and we want to37300:28:49.119 --> 00:28:53.279be able to correct them. Weshould be correcting false understandings, which should37400:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.640be correcting the idea that it's nota baby, it's just a blob of37500:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.359tissue or a clump of cells.We should be correcting the idea that abortion37600:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.680is is a moral good rather thana moral evil right. We should be37700:29:04.720 --> 00:29:10.480correcting that. Yeah, but ultimatelyit says if God perhaps will grant them37800:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.599repentance. So God's going to bethe one that grants repentance. Not Us37900:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.359again, not US using the wordmurder to help them understand they're murdering their38000:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.559child. Not Us. You notusing the word murder? I'm not.38100:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.319You know, I'm kind of likewe got to rely on the Lord,38200:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.519right, we got to rely onhim to do the work in their hearts.38300:29:29.559 --> 00:29:36.759But we do have within this scripturea framework to just stay calm speak38400:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.920the truth. Can you say abortionis murder to a woman to walk it38500:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.599into the abortion centre? Yeah,you can. I do, but it's38600:29:44.640 --> 00:29:45.440not going to be the first thingthat I say. It's not going to38700:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.160be the first thing that comes outof my mouth and I'm probably not going38800:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.039to say it across the parking lot. Yeah, I'm probably in more of38900:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.559a one on one context. Iwill say your child is an innocent human39000:29:56.599 --> 00:30:02.359being. Taking an instant him inlife is murder. You know that abortion39100:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.000is murder. You're going to bemurdering your innocent baby. So I don't39200:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.799think it's wrong to say that.I don't think it's incorrect to say that,39300:30:08.960 --> 00:30:11.960but I do think that we needto be careful in the way that39400:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.720we come across so that we're notshutting the conversations down immediately. Before they39500:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.480even start, and the words thatwe say don't come out of just I39600:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.240want to say this because I'm corrector whatever like. We have to come39700:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.240from a posture of humility and againallow the Lord to do his work in39800:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.519their hearts. Yeah, I thinkthat's really well set and I think that39900:30:30.640 --> 00:30:36.640is the main point. And andI will usually tone down those confrontational words,40000:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.440especially as I'm trying to draw themout to talk with me. So40100:30:40.480 --> 00:30:45.160it's something for everyone to consider,because I know, I I do recognize40200:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.200what you said. It's absolutely trueand I recognize there are people that really,40300:30:48.240 --> 00:30:52.759really feel strongly they must use thatword. But I hope that this40400:30:52.759 --> 00:30:57.160will help you to consider in onecontext and when to be seeing those,40500:30:57.200 --> 00:31:03.960those more anger producing kinds of words. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.40600:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.200I'll just end with this. Whenyou yell across the Parking Lot,40700:31:07.759 --> 00:31:12.039don't go in there and murder yourchild, you can be you can be40800:31:12.599 --> 00:31:18.200technically correct, but relationally wrong.Yeah, they're there are correct words that40900:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.720you can use, but relationally wrong. And in that context you're not just41000:31:22.720 --> 00:31:30.319delivering information, but you're giving anaccusation. Yeah, you're basically the point41100:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.640in the finger and saying you're amurder, you're involved in murder. Yeah,41200:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.359we've got to give again the HolySpirit space to bring that conviction to41300:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.960them, to convince them, andthat normally happens in a one on one41400:31:41.079 --> 00:31:44.559conversation with them. So, yeah, I want to have those conversations.41500:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.839We don't want to shut them down. So we hope that this was an41600:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.400encouragement to you, guys. Wehope that you will consider what we have41700:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.039to say here. We'd love tohear your feedback on this. Maybe have41800:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.400something, maybe have some pushback onthis. And you think maybe we should41900:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.759say murder every time? We're probablygoing to get pushback on this. Just42000:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.200learning. Yeah, I would loveto hear some pushback on this. I42100:32:04.240 --> 00:32:06.960don't claim to have it all figuredout right. Vicky doesn't claim I have42200:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.480now figured out doing the best wecan with what we see in God's word42300:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.240and what we've experienced out there onthe sidewalk. So yeah, we'd love42400:32:13.319 --> 00:32:15.759to hear from you, guys.You can reach me, Daniel at Love42500:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.559Life Dot Org. You reach her, Vicki, with a why at Love42600:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.559Life Dot Org. We'd love tohear from you. We'd love to hear42700:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.279just ideas for future podcast episodes andwe'd love for you guys to leave us42800:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.400a review. If you could leaveus a review on either apple podcasts or42900:32:30.440 --> 00:32:36.000any other podcast service that you use, sure it would be helpful for us43000:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.920to get up in the ratings andget this podcast shared with other people.43100:32:39.200 --> 00:32:49.400But until next time, God blessGod, bless y'all. Love for love,43200:32:52.519 --> 00:33:00.279give me our love for gratitude.I know well will cost me my43300:33:00.319 --> 00:33:08.200life. Nothing's too precious since Imet you,