June 18, 2020

Should We Use Graphic Images to Change Minds About Abortion? Interview with Joanna Keilson and Lincoln Brandenburg from Center for Bioethical Reform

Should We Use Graphic Images to Change Minds About Abortion? Interview with Joanna Keilson and Lincoln Brandenburg from Center for Bioethical Reform

There's some debate in prolife circles about using graphic images of victims of abortion to change hearts and minds about abortion. In this episode, Daniel interviews two members of the Center for Bioethical Reform about how their organization uses...


There's some debate in prolife circles about using graphic images of victims of abortion to change hearts and minds about abortion. In this episode, Daniel interviews two members of the Center for Bioethical Reform about how their organization uses these images and their effectiveness. Of course, the most important question is "What does God's word say about this?" Join us as we look at this from a practical and Biblical perspective. 

charlotte.cities4life.org

www.abortionno.org

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.750 Lord, I am yours. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. 3 00:00:10.949 --> 00:00:14.589 In this episode we're going to talk with members of the Center for bioethical reform 4 00:00:14.910 --> 00:00:19.750 about using graphic images to change minds about abortion. This is an important topic, 5 00:00:19.829 --> 00:00:36.250 so stay tuned. I felt show passis touch your use me. Welcome 6 00:00:36.289 --> 00:00:40.289 to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys who listen, and 7 00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:46.689 we have some special guests here today that are from the Center for bioethical reform. 8 00:00:46.810 --> 00:00:50.000 I said that right. That's correct. Yes, maybe even better known 9 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:55.840 as CBR, and Miss Joanna Kilson, yes, Yep, and Lincoln. 10 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.840 I don't know your last name, Brandenburg, Brandenburg. Okay, so these 11 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:03.399 guys are going to share with us a little bit of what they do as 12 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.310 an organization, kind of what they're focus and their mission is, and then 13 00:01:07.629 --> 00:01:11.469 hopefully some stories of what God has done and how some hearts and minds have 14 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.150 been changed. So real quick, Joanna, introduce yourself what your role is 15 00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:22.939 with CBR and what that involves. Sure. So, I am the director 16 00:01:22.939 --> 00:01:27.180 of recruitment and intern program director, so I'm involved in various roles, but 17 00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:33.930 a lot of what I do is recruiting and training staff, of volunteers, 18 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:37.810 new staff, and there's we all wear a lot of hats, so there's 19 00:01:37.810 --> 00:01:40.049 a lot that needs to be done. I understand that done them. If 20 00:01:40.209 --> 00:01:42.329 we're in a bunch of hat that's the most concise way to say a little 21 00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:46.170 bit of what I do. Okay, cool and Lincoln. Well, I 22 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:49.439 am, on paper, my roles the development of staff, or sees me 23 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.599 the director of staff developments. Okay, and, like Joanna says, we 24 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.640 all wear a lot of different hats and a lot of my role also includes 25 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.879 just doing activism outings and planning the things will do out on the streets, 26 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.670 which I'm sure we'll talk about here at some point. And Yeah, it's 27 00:02:04.709 --> 00:02:08.270 I've been here for about eight years doing this and we've we've traveled where a 28 00:02:08.349 --> 00:02:14.830 national organization with international affiliates, and then Joan and I respectively have both been 29 00:02:14.909 --> 00:02:17.780 to probably about what ten to twelve different states, and then you've been out 30 00:02:17.780 --> 00:02:23.419 of the country some working with other pro life organizations. I'm working with people 31 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.099 to advance the mission. Okay. Well, I'm glad you bring that up. 32 00:02:27.139 --> 00:02:30.330 Advance the mission. What is the mission then, of the Center for 33 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:37.129 about ethical reform. It sounds really like scientific e and in medically and stuff 34 00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:38.689 like that. I'm sure there's some of that. But what's the mission? 35 00:02:39.050 --> 00:02:46.800 Well, we are very passionate that abortion represents an evil that is so profound 36 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:53.520 that you cannot fully understand it unless you see it. Okay, and so 37 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.189 a lot of what we're known for around a pro life circles and wherever is 38 00:02:59.349 --> 00:03:01.430 that? Where the people that bring up the pictures and okay, we've actually 39 00:03:01.469 --> 00:03:08.909 compiled a pretty much the largest in the world archive of professionally taken abortion victim 40 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:14.060 images. Yeah, and most of the if you even Google for abortion victim 41 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.780 images, it's probably our photos that are going to show up because they're they're 42 00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:22.020 very high resolution. We usually have them in a picture with some kind of 43 00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:24.500 size reference, like a coin or a familiar objects of the people. When 44 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:28.490 these pictures are made large, people can see what it is and see how, 45 00:03:29.090 --> 00:03:32.289 even the early trimester, how well developed the baby is. But we've 46 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:37.250 really based this on there's there's biblical reasons for the use of the pictures. 47 00:03:37.330 --> 00:03:42.319 There's historical reasons that I think are very compelling and it's something that we see 48 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.000 both in society at large and also in the Christian community, that it's one 49 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.360 thing to have a theoretical position on the subject, but seeing it for what 50 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.710 it really is is what really grips people, both in their conscience and in 51 00:03:54.750 --> 00:03:58.189 their intellect, to see that, yeah, this is a real human life, 52 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.830 this is a real baby, and abortion is an act of violence. 53 00:04:00.069 --> 00:04:04.349 Yeah, absolutely. I know we have in our brochures that we hand out 54 00:04:04.389 --> 00:04:09.270 at the abortion center, on one of the inside pages actually, when of 55 00:04:09.349 --> 00:04:12.539 you guys, pictures of a victim of abortion at eleven weeks. We feel 56 00:04:12.580 --> 00:04:15.579 like it's very effective to show it to an abortion amounted woman going into an 57 00:04:15.620 --> 00:04:18.379 abortion clinic. We do it in a measured way, you know, ask 58 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.019 her, can is it art if I show you what abortion looks like? 59 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:26.649 And we've seen God use that image in some some pretty powerful way. So 60 00:04:26.769 --> 00:04:30.610 you guys are doing that and more of a big picture way. Right. 61 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:35.209 So Joanna shere real quick. So basically what I'm here from Lincoln is, 62 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:38.920 if I was just to make it in a nutshell, you're trying to make 63 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:44.560 the reality of abortion evident, in the violence of abortion evident in a visual 64 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.120 way. And where do you do that at? Primarily or where do you 65 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:49.920 do that? I mean maybe there's a mix, maybe there's not just one 66 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.149 place where you guys go. But where does that take place at? So 67 00:04:55.230 --> 00:04:58.629 we do a lot of work on college campuses. That is the age range 68 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:03.110 where the majority of people are getting abortions. Yeah, and they're twenty. 69 00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:10.220 So college and after. Yeah, and it is the thinking grounds of our 70 00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:12.860 of our nation, and so we do a lot of work there. But 71 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:16.500 really wherever there are people and wherever we are invited, which is usually the 72 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:20.259 streets, because we're not often for I wanted, and that's why there's neat 73 00:05:20.610 --> 00:05:26.050 tod do what we do. So the streets of any city, country, 74 00:05:26.089 --> 00:05:29.009 where ever they are people, we pass out there, sure, but really 75 00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:32.449 meanly showing them the humanity of the preborn and humanity of abortion. So let 76 00:05:32.490 --> 00:05:35.959 me just kind of correct me if I'm wrong. Kind of set of visual 77 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:42.959 through audio for people. You guys go to a college campus and you set 78 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.680 up victim images and if people don't know exactly what we're talking we're talking about 79 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:48.680 victim images. Were talking about pictures of a boarded babies. Right, yes, 80 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:53.189 these are victims of a board portion, and you set up these images 81 00:05:53.910 --> 00:05:57.189 and again, they're not just like these kind of rough hand drawn images, 82 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:01.750 they're actually real images that have been taken and you kind of just have a 83 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:08.819 display there in the college campus and folks come by, college students, professors 84 00:06:08.899 --> 00:06:12.860 come by, and your goal is just to come and just make them angry. 85 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:15.579 Is that right? Well, that's there's a little news to that. 86 00:06:16.019 --> 00:06:21.490 It does often make people angry, and we do actually I'm of the mindset 87 00:06:21.490 --> 00:06:25.810 that when people get angry, that is actually a good sign, because it 88 00:06:25.970 --> 00:06:30.889 means that the position that they previously held and perhaps are still trying to defend, 89 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.279 they're realizing that they're defending the indefensible. Yeah, and nobody, like 90 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:39.399 myself included, nobody, likes to have a challenge of a position that we 91 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:43.319 hold very close challenged, and we especially don't like to think that Hey, 92 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.350 maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm you know, and you're holding up something as 93 00:06:46.389 --> 00:06:51.230 being about human rights and about women's rights and there's all these euphemism surrounding the 94 00:06:51.310 --> 00:06:56.670 way the public at large thinks about abortion, and when we show the pictures 95 00:06:56.750 --> 00:07:00.629 for what they are, we're dismantling that euphemism. And so one thing our 96 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:04.339 founder, Greg Cunningham, is quoted often too saying is that when we show 97 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:11.459 the victims of abortion, we are not protesting abortion because abortion protest itself. 98 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:14.660 Yeah, when you show it, yeah, that's that's a good, good 99 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:18.850 quote here and we go. I really aren't. Goal is to each that 100 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:23.050 middle fifty percent. So if you think about there's maybe twenty five percent on 101 00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:26.370 one side who are strongly pro life and then twenty five percent who are strongly 102 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.319 pro choice or pro abortion. There's that middle fifty percent who are kind of 103 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.120 you know, maybe they call themselves pro choice, sometimes even pro life, 104 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.600 but they're really just kind of unsure and they're very swayable. But those people 105 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.480 do not come to us. We have to go to them. They are 106 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.480 not looking for the information, they're not listening this podcast, they're not at 107 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.990 the abortion clinic, you know. I mean they might be at some point, 108 00:07:46.069 --> 00:07:47.589 but yeah, they're really just going about their daily life, and so 109 00:07:48.110 --> 00:07:50.750 we have to go to them. And a lot of them are more open 110 00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:56.269 and they're they're not the vocal minority on either side. They're they're more silent, 111 00:07:56.629 --> 00:07:59.420 the final majority, and so those are really the people that we are 112 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.860 trying to reach that are more swayable. Yeah, and they are or open. 113 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:05.379 Yeah, and along those lines, with that specific grouping our audience, 114 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:09.180 we tend to not very often. I mean obviously there are exceptions, but 115 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.529 typically we're not going out in front of abortion clinics per se. And obviously, 116 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:16.850 you know, we very much support and partner with and believe in ministries, 117 00:08:16.889 --> 00:08:18.569 you know, like your own, yes, cities for life, that 118 00:08:18.689 --> 00:08:22.769 do that because the need is so great. And and you guys, you 119 00:08:22.850 --> 00:08:24.689 know I commend you that. You know you're seeing little baby say, because 120 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:28.120 you're out there right where the the action happens, right where the killing is 121 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.600 going to happen if someone doesn't step into intervene. But a lot of that 122 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.720 mindset we have with reaching that that middle demographic of the people who are just 123 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.440 kind of on the fence or who, you know, hold positions in their 124 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.950 mind that are contradictory but maybe just don't realize it. On the FT are 125 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.350 are they're just apathetic about it. Yeah, the with reaching them it's the 126 00:08:48.470 --> 00:08:52.149 mindset that we're trying to not only save individual babies from abortion, but also 127 00:08:52.230 --> 00:08:58.500 trying to change public opinion and trying to shift the way the culture views abortion 128 00:08:58.659 --> 00:09:03.820 and and really dismantled that euphemism of choice, which is the word people associate 129 00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:07.379 with abortion, so that next time they you know, here, CNN or 130 00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:11.649 whoever, talking about women's reproductive healthcare or the freedom of choice, they now 131 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.409 have a picture emblaze in their mind that they will not forget of what that 132 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:18.250 choice actually means and that there's an actual, real victim, a real person 133 00:09:18.370 --> 00:09:22.889 who had to suffer as the casualty, yeah, of that choice. We 134 00:09:22.970 --> 00:09:26.360 don't have the media or anyone in poses of power on our side, so 135 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.879 we have to be at me, we have to go out. Where else 136 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.960 are the going to see this information? Nowhere, so you have to broadcast 137 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:39.029 it. So in one sense you're forcing a necessary conversation. You're you're forcing 138 00:09:39.110 --> 00:09:43.110 people. When I say force, a lot of people don't like that, 139 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:48.990 but the reality is that that media, even what we're dealing with now with 140 00:09:48.149 --> 00:09:52.509 a think while we were talking before, the podcast mentioned with the Jord George 141 00:09:52.549 --> 00:09:56.379 Floyd thing. It's like people are forced to confront an evil by that image. 142 00:09:56.379 --> 00:10:01.220 I remember I watch the video of the police officer with his knee on 143 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:03.500 this guy's neck and I just about started weeping right in front of my kids. 144 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:07.409 I'm going through facebook and I see it, I'm like my daughter asked 145 00:10:07.450 --> 00:10:11.850 me what's going on. I was just forced to be confronted with a reality. 146 00:10:11.889 --> 00:10:15.970 And so you guys, in one sense or for or sing in the 147 00:10:16.090 --> 00:10:18.090 market place of ideas. That's what the college campus is used to be. 148 00:10:18.250 --> 00:10:22.120 Now, yes, more of a market place of Marxism, but anyway, 149 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.200 we won't go there. You're forcing them to think about things that they have 150 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.360 already decided about, but really they're not decided about and that and that's important 151 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.190 and and I'll just openly admit that I I am fine with the mindset and 152 00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:37.950 I know some Christians kind of feel squeamish about this, but the fact is 153 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:43.590 that we are forcing that debate and we are bringing this out to the public 154 00:10:43.629 --> 00:10:46.990 square, to an audience kind of without their consense. Yeah, and if 155 00:10:48.070 --> 00:10:50.740 you and a lot of that is just that mindset that you know, you 156 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:54.500 look at the biblical profits, you look at modern social or form movements like 157 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:58.700 Dr Martin Luther King Jr and some of his his writings and his tactics, 158 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.299 and you just see where, as long as we have this mindset that we're 159 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:05.610 going to and obviously I recognize in the context of an abortion clinic and an 160 00:11:05.610 --> 00:11:09.049 abortion minded woman, this is a little bit different. Yeah, absolutely, 161 00:11:09.049 --> 00:11:11.809 but in terms of the general public, we can't wait for them to come 162 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.129 to us or consent to come and hear our message and to see these images, 163 00:11:16.169 --> 00:11:18.759 because nobody wants to see this. Yeah, and the whole point is 164 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.159 that we are so pathetically, sadly apathetic and comfortable with being sheltered from the 165 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.279 hard realities like this that exists even in our own country. And so we 166 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.190 are intentionally going out to places that are busy and that a lot of eyeballs 167 00:11:33.230 --> 00:11:35.509 will see our message and and granted, we're not going to pressure people to 168 00:11:35.629 --> 00:11:39.029 look, we're not going to chase them down to hand them a Rochure, 169 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.429 but we do want to create a situation where the default alts is that they 170 00:11:43.509 --> 00:11:46.179 will see this image and they have to choose to look away, rather than 171 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.620 having this image hidden and they have to choose to look yeah, and so 172 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:54.340 then you get, you know, William Weber Force, the British abolitionist who's 173 00:11:54.340 --> 00:11:58.700 wellknown for bringing into slavery in the British Empire. He's quoted as having said 174 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:03.250 that you can choose to look the other way, but you can never again 175 00:12:03.289 --> 00:12:05.409 say, but you did not know. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you 176 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:09.289 know, as we were talking about before we started the podcast, it's a 177 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:13.009 reality that you see in the Bible and it's a reality that we know that 178 00:12:13.129 --> 00:12:18.799 human beings are visual creatures. God knows that, right, he knows that 179 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.480 and he plays on that. We see that Biblical imagery as we're reading. 180 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.879 The scriptures are pictures. The prophets choose pictures when we talk a little bit 181 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.110 more about that, but we are visual creatures and when you put an image 182 00:12:30.549 --> 00:12:33.429 in someone's pathway, I mean, if you think about it and if people 183 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:37.350 are going to accuse, you know, prolifers or accuse you guys of being 184 00:12:37.470 --> 00:12:43.750 just blatantly like provocative or whatever, Peter at the other day I was actually 185 00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:46.059 at Chick Fil A. Love chickflay. Oh, yes, it's some Christian 186 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:48.539 chicken, that's right, and I was there in the chickflay parking lot and 187 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:52.460 I looked up and there was a billboard in the chickflay parking lot, by 188 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:54.820 the way, that was a person's face, half of the person's facing, 189 00:12:54.820 --> 00:12:58.929 the other half was a chickens face, and it was something like it wasn't 190 00:12:58.929 --> 00:13:01.529 like chickens or people too but it was something like that, and they were 191 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:05.610 forcing people in the chick fil a parking lot to deal with the reality that 192 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:11.250 they're part of killing chickens. Now, you and I I that's ridiculous. 193 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:13.399 Chickens are Yummy, right, I don't agree with them bad you admire their 194 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.120 moxie. That, yeah, that's their messaging. There really need to be 195 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.360 yeah, and so, in a more important way, you guys are doing 196 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:26.840 that in a college campus context. So you have what's called, if I'm 197 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.950 not mistaken about this, the gap project. Describe that side awareness project. 198 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:37.629 Okay, so gap stands for genocide awareness project. What meaneth that? What 199 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:41.149 do you mean by genocide awareness project? Well, there's a sense in which 200 00:13:41.779 --> 00:13:46.899 we're we're trying to really provoke the public to think about abortion not in terms 201 00:13:46.899 --> 00:13:50.740 of just the individual death of one life, but also thinking in terms of 202 00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:54.139 that this is a massive genocide. This is something and I think there's a 203 00:13:54.179 --> 00:14:00.330 good case for that, because you look at the comparison between abortion and any 204 00:14:00.409 --> 00:14:03.330 other group of humans throughout history that have been deprived and stripped of their human 205 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:07.330 rights and you see certain similarities where, you know, we used to humanizing 206 00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:13.960 language to describe the victims. And so the Jews during the Nazi Germany Reign, 207 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:18.000 they were referred to as subhuman or renderment. Yeah, you had the 208 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.840 words that people use to describe black people in the United States that were meant 209 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.549 to be subhuman and meant to be derogatory. And you know, nowadays we 210 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:28.389 refer to the baby as it's a clump of cells and, yeah, a 211 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.909 product of conception, it's a parasite, it's not a person in the full 212 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:37.029 sense of the law. And with just looking at the different definitions of genocide 213 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:41.379 and the mindset behind hind genocide, it's always about a group of people who 214 00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:45.860 are in the protected class drawing a circle around themself and saying, okay, 215 00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:48.299 if you're in this circle, you are human. This is what it means 216 00:14:48.340 --> 00:14:52.860 to be a person with rights and respected under the law, and it's the 217 00:14:52.889 --> 00:14:56.769 people outside of that who either have something we want or they get in our 218 00:14:56.809 --> 00:15:01.129 way or there's some reason why we won't. We benefit from them not having 219 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:05.730 the same yes as us, and so we exclude them. And here with 220 00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:09.960 abortion, we would say that the group being targeted is specifically unwanted and unborn 221 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.519 children. Yeah, because you can't kill a baby in the womb whose mother 222 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.039 wants him, because you know, in most states you will be charged with 223 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.759 a double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman. Yeah, and then, 224 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.110 of course, if the baby is unwanted but they're born, well, at 225 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.350 that point the law protects them. We call that infanticide or, you know, 226 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:31.149 child abuse. But it's a specific, identifiable people group and it's it's 227 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:35.620 really designed to to prick the conscience in a way beyond even just the images 228 00:15:35.659 --> 00:15:41.940 themselves, because with this specific display we parallel the images with images from the 229 00:15:43.179 --> 00:15:46.899 Holocaust or from the Rwandan genocide or from the massacret wounded. Need just all 230 00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:52.970 these different historical references and it's designs that people see. Okay, you know, 231 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.490 this is something that I look back a long time ago and we know 232 00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:58.529 that was wrong. This wounded the massacre where all the native Americans were rounded 233 00:15:58.610 --> 00:16:03.360 up and shot by the US cavalry, and we all recognize that as wrong. 234 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:10.240 But see, there's this mechanism that we have where we like to think 235 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.159 that Oh, those people a long time ago, are those people far away, 236 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:17.600 those people were backwards and wicked and did something just in humane. But 237 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.190 I'm not like that. We're very civilized. We're very progressive, we're very 238 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.230 pro equality of human rights. We would never, had we been there, 239 00:16:26.350 --> 00:16:27.750 we would never. Oh, yes, we would have. We would have, 240 00:16:27.830 --> 00:16:32.070 liked Jesus, would have stood against it. That's right. Jesus condemnsed 241 00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:33.419 people who said that same thing. Yeah, it's just that we think we 242 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:37.899 would have done better and yet statistically, most of US probably would not have, 243 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:41.460 and so it's more convicting even than just damages by themselves and that, 244 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:45.379 and so that's especially for a secular society. That's the thrust of our message, 245 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.690 is that abortion is not only murder, but that abortion is genocide on 246 00:16:49.769 --> 00:16:53.690 a large scale level. Yeah, you know, scripture says there's nothing new 247 00:16:53.730 --> 00:16:59.649 under the Sun. Humanity, since the beginning, since there were people groups, 248 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:03.359 has had one people group against the other, oppressing, taken advantage of, 249 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:08.559 killing off of me. It's like it's the human propensity to to take 250 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.359 advantage of people when we're able to, and it's in it's evil when it 251 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.200 like you said, that's got to be confronted. I appreciate them. Yeah, 252 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:19.190 that you guys are doing that. What is the reception within the college 253 00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:23.990 campus? What what are I don't know, maybe share some stories, if 254 00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:29.670 you can, of some positive reception, negative reception and, like you said, 255 00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:32.740 Lincoln, even before we started this thing, it's all positive as far 256 00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:34.859 as your con scerned because if they're angry, at least they're hearing what you're 257 00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:38.140 saying. But Jamana, share a little bit about the reception in the college 258 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:42.859 campus, even in the Public Square, street corner, that sort of thing. 259 00:17:44.609 --> 00:17:48.849 Sure. Yeah, so I think that you know that the message hits 260 00:17:48.289 --> 00:17:52.009 every individual at a different place, because every individual is at a different place, 261 00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:55.569 but it meets them where they are and that's what we try to do, 262 00:17:55.809 --> 00:17:59.279 you know, conversationally as well. But everyone's going to respond differently because 263 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.839 they're a different place. So some people are really angry and some people are, 264 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.799 yeah, upset, cuss us out, you know all kinds of things. 265 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.880 Yeah, so we do get a lot of that, but we also 266 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.319 get a lot of positive reception. A lot of people thank you so much 267 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.470 for you're doing. You know this is so needed. And we get a 268 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.349 lot of positives and then we get a lot of questions and a lot of 269 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:22.069 people who are just kind of going about their life and either they'll proach us 270 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:23.670 and ask US questions they've never heard the answer to you know, they've heard 271 00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:27.660 one side, they've heard what they've been told by mainstream society and they've never 272 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:32.740 heard the the answers the opposite side, and so they never had that chance. 273 00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:33.740 So then, you know, thank you, thank you for answers are 274 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.460 Oh, you know, I've really had a good conversation. And and then, 275 00:18:37.019 --> 00:18:38.940 you know, we go to that. You know, we approach people, 276 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:41.329 as you know, we ask them, you know, what do you 277 00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:45.529 think and all, I don't know, it's not something I really thought about 278 00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:48.450 much. Or Oh, I think it's fine because, you know, you 279 00:18:48.529 --> 00:18:49.690 know a foe woman's raped or if she's really poor, and then we get 280 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:52.970 to have that discussion with them and what do you think? And then, 281 00:18:52.089 --> 00:18:56.039 you know, we go through our apologetics and to just really confront you know, 282 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.640 is this really logical? It is this really and you don't get them 283 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.119 thinking. We really want them to think. Yeah, because so you're not, 284 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.480 like I said, kind of ingest, absolutely ingest. You're not there 285 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:15.150 just to make people angry, but you're there to invoke conversations and thoughts and 286 00:19:15.829 --> 00:19:18.269 maybe the perception is which is why you get some of the angry people coming 287 00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:21.829 over and they're going to set you straight is that you're just there to make 288 00:19:21.869 --> 00:19:26.740 them angry, just there to offend them, and when they come and approach 289 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.420 you and they find that you're not like what they thought you were, this 290 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:36.140 bravenoist, anti choice activist or whatever, you actually a loving person that wants 291 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:38.170 to answer their questions. What's the reception on that? And have you ever 292 00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:41.130 had a situation where they're coming to set you straight and then, you know, 293 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:45.450 thirty minutes later they're like, thank you, he had all the time, 294 00:19:45.769 --> 00:19:48.849 all the time. And there's a sense to in which like where I 295 00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:51.369 would say, you know, a little caveat, like in some ways, 296 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:53.640 maybe we are trying to make people angry in a sense, and what I 297 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.319 would explain that as is that we know we're going to get a reaction and 298 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.319 we know that some people, a lot of people are not going to agree 299 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.799 with us. And almost everywhere we go we get protesters who set up and 300 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.950 they'll have their signs that are, you know, usually handmade, or they'll 301 00:20:07.950 --> 00:20:10.509 be out there trying to cover us up or, you know, trying to 302 00:20:10.549 --> 00:20:14.990 engage on their side of the issue and people the target audience that we're trying 303 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.470 to reach, that Joanna describe those people in the middle. They come by 304 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:22.059 and they see the contrast. Yeah, they see the horrible pictures, they 305 00:20:22.059 --> 00:20:26.339 see US responding to people gently, having civilized conversations, being challenging perhaps, 306 00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:32.059 but at least not being derogatory or mean spirited. And then they go to 307 00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:33.900 the other side they see them, you know, at in some cases they've 308 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:37.930 seen them vandalize our signs. And so, you know, one person I 309 00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:41.849 was talking to, he's pro a pro choice young man at a college in 310 00:20:42.210 --> 00:20:47.690 I want to say Florida, and someone came in just through some pain on 311 00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.599 our signs and ran off and that really touched him. He was like, 312 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:53.599 oh my goodness, like your position must be pretty poor if you feel like 313 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.720 you have to do that to get it across rather than engage people. Yeah, 314 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.640 we had a there was another school in Florida where this guy on a 315 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.160 motorcycle, you know, with his jacket, he comes by and he was 316 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.710 just very he was not going to commit to either side. He had his 317 00:21:07.789 --> 00:21:10.630 notepad in his pin and he came to us. He asked his hard questions 318 00:21:10.670 --> 00:21:12.589 and he was sitting there writing our answers and he was just very engaged. 319 00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:15.950 And then he went to the other side. He said, okay, I 320 00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:18.619 want to go hear what they have to say, and he walks across the 321 00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:22.220 protesters, spends a few minutes with them doing the same thing. He comes 322 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.380 back to us and he's frustrated. At that point he says, you know 323 00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:32.660 what, you guys actually have articulate reasons and logical explanations for why you believe 324 00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:37.849 what you believe, and all the other side has is catch phrases and slogans 325 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:41.170 and just things that they've repeated and parroted that don't actually have any substance to 326 00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:45.609 them. Yeah, and so it's really creating a situation where people see the 327 00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:51.160 other side trying to defend the indefensible and they see the slogans and they see 328 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.079 just the the vileness of that. Yeah, and hopefully see the contrast and 329 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.480 it causes them, it forces the time, I think, to one examine 330 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.829 hey like not only the facts of the issue, which we certainly want them 331 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.869 to but then also, you know, remembering the pictures and they're remembering the 332 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.710 fact that they were treated with respect. And what did they see on the 333 00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:10.230 other side? Yeah, and we're sewing seeds, you know, a a 334 00:22:10.269 --> 00:22:12.470 lot of times it's not oh wow, I can't believe us so stupid. 335 00:22:12.509 --> 00:22:15.740 I didn't know. You know, they don't. It's not an immediate conversion, 336 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.660 but sometimes it is. But a lot of times more often, you 337 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:21.259 know, we know any time where any of us are confronted with someone says 338 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:22.740 something that's different what we already think, you know, we kind of argue 339 00:22:22.779 --> 00:22:25.940 back a bit and you know, I think it because of this, is 340 00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:26.900 what about this? You know that then you go home and think about and 341 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:30.329 that's what they do. You'll go home and think about it and sometimes, 342 00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:33.089 you know, years later, but you know, you come back and tell 343 00:22:33.089 --> 00:22:36.210 us, yeah, I didn't see, yeah, I was angry, and 344 00:22:36.289 --> 00:22:38.569 change my mind. So you've got a let's say you've got a you got 345 00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:45.200 the gap project set up and you're displaying these contrasts, or actually these comparisons 346 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.759 between abortion and other genocize that have taken place in human history, and a 347 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.319 pro abortion person comes up and they have their sign that did just handcrafted from 348 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:59.069 a pizza box and they wanted to set you straight and they're blocking your signs 349 00:22:59.750 --> 00:23:02.390 and they're trying to get people not to look at what you've got to say. 350 00:23:02.910 --> 00:23:07.269 How do you deal with that person? So there is a verse, 351 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.230 and I think it's proverbs two, five hundred and twenty six. That's, 352 00:23:10.829 --> 00:23:14.019 I think, very needed in the church today, very needed among Christian circles 353 00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:15.779 and people who do what we do, and you're probably already familiar with it, 354 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:19.660 but it says that, like a muddied spring or polluted well, is 355 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:25.700 a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. And so you know, 356 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:27.289 there's a sense we're willing to go out there and there is a context for 357 00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:30.769 turning the other cheek. Yeah, but when we're out here standing not for 358 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:34.930 ourselves but for the victims, and we're out there showing pictures to tell their 359 00:23:36.049 --> 00:23:40.569 story and to stand for their well being on their behalf, we will we 360 00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:45.720 will not tolerate people coming out there and trying to to block that or to 361 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.440 censor that, because they have a legal right to free speech. And so 362 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.039 we don't. We don't tear their signs out of their hands, we don't 363 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:53.680 try to block them, we don't try to mess with their ability to get 364 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.829 their message across and we expect to be treated the same way. And so 365 00:23:57.150 --> 00:24:02.109 if people come and they try to block things or vandalize or do something like 366 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:03.990 that, that's illegal. You know, we will call the police or we 367 00:24:04.150 --> 00:24:07.190 will, you know, ask them to move and we will even take legal 368 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:11.539 measures, because that does come to the point where, okay, we're not 369 00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:14.460 going to be you know, being being a Christian doesn't mean that we have 370 00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:17.819 to be pushovers. Yeah, and we're standing for something that is righteous like 371 00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:21.099 this, we won't be pushovers. Yeah, yeah, we've had situation just 372 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.970 from personal experience, at the abortion centers. We've had pro abortion people. 373 00:24:25.089 --> 00:24:27.769 Had one point, a pro abortion lady tried to go on to the mobile 374 00:24:27.769 --> 00:24:32.849 ultrasound unit and get a a mom off of there because we had had her 375 00:24:32.890 --> 00:24:34.410 on there too long and she wanted to go inside and get her half on 376 00:24:34.450 --> 00:24:37.970 a likeness. What in the world. So I call the police on her 377 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:41.519 rather than, you know, in this kind of twisted version of turn the 378 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:42.960 other cheek. Obviously, I stood my ground and stood in front of the 379 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.640 door with letter. That's just my experience. It's a little bit of what 380 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.039 you're talking about. Share it real quick, Joanna, if you can. 381 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:55.470 A story of a person and who had changed their mind about abortion is for 382 00:24:55.589 --> 00:24:57.269 us, the the reality of it and that sort of thing. Yeah, 383 00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:02.109 there's so many. Also amazing what happens. I'm amazed when we go out 384 00:25:02.230 --> 00:25:03.390 there, just like you're saying earlier, I got me to you and you 385 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:07.220 know, just gives you opportunities. You will save lives and change minds. 386 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:11.140 And sometimes it's not immediate or every conversation, but there's so many, so 387 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:14.660 many opportunities to share the gospel. But there's just all kinds of funny situations. 388 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:15.740 I'll share one. Okay, funny one stands out in my mind. 389 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.490 There's this guy who's just been, you know, standing there for you know, 390 00:25:21.730 --> 00:25:23.809 meant twenty minutes, maybe thirty, just, you know, just going 391 00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:27.410 around in circles basically, and you know, we're trying to share everything we 392 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:32.329 can and, you know, with him and and he's just not having he 393 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:33.730 says, you know, you you're just trying to hurt women, you're just 394 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.640 making them feel like they're not seas. You know, you're well comparing this 395 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:40.440 the Holocaust and you're just, you know, trying to feed up women, 396 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.599 basically. And we're trying to tell him that's all we're doing and explain to 397 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.640 him, but he just won't hear any of it. So then here walks 398 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:51.309 along this young woman who doesn't look the difficult part of a pro life or 399 00:25:51.349 --> 00:25:55.190 definitely not just coming here smoking, you know, and it's just real LAXA 400 00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:59.710 daisically and she's standing there and just listens for a few minutes. I've no 401 00:25:59.710 --> 00:26:02.109 idea what she's gonna say, and then after a few minutes, she says, 402 00:26:02.589 --> 00:26:07.779 you know, I'm a woman and I don't feel like they're trying to 403 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:08.859 tell me a not see like now. I'm not say. I feel like 404 00:26:10.019 --> 00:26:11.660 they're just really trying to say that abortion is wrong. And she says and 405 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.180 I've had an abortion and I don't feel like they're condemning me. I feel 406 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:19.210 like they're just trying to show what it is and many's validation. That's no 407 00:26:19.369 --> 00:26:22.970 words, like, you know, for out of the words of its money, 408 00:26:22.970 --> 00:26:26.329 when God just brings us situations like that, I could school are more 409 00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:29.529 all the time. But yeah, it's amazing. Have you, Lincoln, 410 00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:34.319 share a story of a situation where you've had to stay in your ground and 411 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.519 maybe you had to get the law involved so that people understand, like what 412 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.319 you guys are dealing with? It's not that you're just there again to make 413 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.119 people ain't you going to spur conversations and you're there in a very nice and 414 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:51.349 approachable demeanor, but I'm sure you've been, maybe not physically attack maybe, 415 00:26:51.430 --> 00:26:53.150 I don't know. We've we we see, we've seen just about it. 416 00:26:53.309 --> 00:26:56.750 Well, I don't want to say everything because something will always play out that 417 00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:00.750 surprises you. And Yeah, we had a situation where we were at a 418 00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:06.779 very liberal campus in here in North Carolina and and this kind of goes along 419 00:27:06.779 --> 00:27:10.420 to with the theme of just, I guess, the ants that we feel 420 00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:15.460 where the news media is not fair to our cause and will often misconstrue things 421 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:18.170 or paint things a certain way that those who observe the events did not observe. 422 00:27:18.809 --> 00:27:22.369 And we're at this campus and we had a group of people that were 423 00:27:22.849 --> 00:27:26.769 kind of the ANTIFA types where they were just very in your face, they 424 00:27:26.809 --> 00:27:30.680 were very brash. There were about three or four them in particular that would 425 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.240 just follow our people around and just kind of make jeering comments at them or 426 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.519 like make demeaning comments on our even our physical appearance, or just things that 427 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.240 were very personal where you could tell they were trying to get under our sore. 428 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.750 Non Scientific argument, not at all. They did not want to talk, 429 00:27:44.789 --> 00:27:47.470 they did not want to engage, they just wanted to intimidate. And 430 00:27:47.589 --> 00:27:51.509 we had this one young woman who was a black young woman and she was 431 00:27:51.589 --> 00:27:55.390 a specially antagonistic like to me for a while where she was just getting in 432 00:27:55.430 --> 00:27:59.420 my face and and doing all these things to try to intimidate, and then 433 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:00.819 she would she would beat on one person, then she would go to the 434 00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:06.740 next person and just be saying things that were silly or derogatory or unkind as 435 00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.500 she would just be following people around. Well, at one point she ended 436 00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.490 up grabbing a piece of paper that has some sensitive information on it from one 437 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:18.970 of our volunteers and she refused to give it back. She just took it 438 00:28:18.130 --> 00:28:22.650 just brazenly, as if she thought she could get away with it and that 439 00:28:22.690 --> 00:28:23.849 we weren't we were just going to Keel over and let her do that. 440 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:27.880 And so I think it was, I guess it was me. I probably 441 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.279 called the police honor and told them that, you know, this was going 442 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.720 on. Yeah, and the officers came over there and, a long story 443 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:38.119 short, she at first denied that she had done it and then she tried 444 00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.710 to hand the piece of paper off to want of her cohorts and you know, 445 00:28:41.789 --> 00:28:47.269 obviously that was kind of literally getting caught randhanded here and so the the 446 00:28:47.390 --> 00:28:49.390 officers, they had her turn around, they arrested her, I think, 447 00:28:49.390 --> 00:28:55.779 for Larceny. And just little little side detail the story, like the officer 448 00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:57.940 that arrested her was a black female officer, yeah, as well, who 449 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:02.859 put the handcuffs on her wrists and they took her away and I think she 450 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:04.619 spent just a little bit of time, you know, and detention there for 451 00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:08.700 that. But later on, when the news article came out about it, 452 00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:14.609 it was kind of portraying it. As you know, black woman gets arrested. 453 00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:17.250 You know, become was of pro life people. It was something to 454 00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:19.369 the effect that, oh, this PORP and they were quoting her something. 455 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:23.009 She get tweeted about how her risk hurt and how she had been detained against 456 00:29:23.009 --> 00:29:26.359 her will for all these hours and and the whole you're reading this whole story 457 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.359 thinking, Oh, she's the victim and she's this poor innocent black woman who's 458 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:36.319 been treated unfairly. And I mean we it was just bizarre and ironic because 459 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.910 it became something where it wasn't about the facts and it wasn't about what the 460 00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:45.190 people around observed. It was about creating her to be the victim, even 461 00:29:45.190 --> 00:29:48.670 though she was the one and like, very actively and aggressively harassing all of 462 00:29:48.789 --> 00:29:52.339 us, including volunteers on our staff who are also black, like she was 463 00:29:52.420 --> 00:29:56.140 just harassing everybody. But the news didn't cover that, they didn't say that, 464 00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:59.660 and so that's just one of many instance is where we've had to stand 465 00:29:59.700 --> 00:30:02.900 our ground and and part of it is showing them that we will not be 466 00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:04.460 bullied. Like we're out there. We want to be kind, we want 467 00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:07.769 to be civil, we want you to have your rights to free speech. 468 00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:11.890 We've believed in the value and dignity of every human being, regardless of their 469 00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:15.849 race and, obviously, their level of development, but that doesn't mean will 470 00:30:15.930 --> 00:30:18.450 allow someone to bully us or think that they can just do that kind of 471 00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:21.960 thing and get away, because it sends a message that, oh, Christians 472 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.160 and pro life people are weak and if you just intimidate them and harass them 473 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.359 enough, they'll either capitulate or they'll just go yeah, well, like what 474 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.559 you said when you said it's not really about us, it's not about US 475 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.509 standing our ground for our sake. Yeah, but it's these babies. You 476 00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:41.950 know, I believe, and you probably have stories to share, maybe even 477 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:45.430 as many stories as you have to year of people being angry and people you 478 00:30:45.549 --> 00:30:48.670 know, and all of that of moms that have even chosen life based on 479 00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:51.299 what you guys are doing. I mean, in one sense, you guys 480 00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:55.460 are getting them and planting those seeds of truth about abortion before they get to 481 00:30:55.539 --> 00:30:57.460 us, to the abortion center. So I know God uses you guys in 482 00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:00.980 that way. It's not surprising, they lincoln that the news media wasn't on 483 00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:06.369 your side and wasn't, you know, speaking positively about and and that's constantly 484 00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:08.410 why we insist have to go around them and that's why we go to the 485 00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:11.849 streets, to busy intersections, to college campuses, two places where we can 486 00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:15.410 interact and and that's really part of the beauty of the pictures to is that, 487 00:31:15.529 --> 00:31:18.400 you know, we've talked about and we love the stories about the conversations, 488 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:23.359 but you know, for every ten minute, thirty minute conversation I have 489 00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:26.880 with an individual, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people walking 490 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.400 by that I'm only one person and we only have so many people on our 491 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.190 team and we can't directly engage each of them. But at the very least 492 00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:37.990 they took a few seconds. They looked over to see what the commotion was 493 00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:41.349 about, and they have been reached in a way that is powerful and perhaps 494 00:31:41.349 --> 00:31:45.109 even more powerful sometimes than even our words. Yeah, yeah, well, 495 00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:47.460 I know. One of the things, it's kind that I wanted to get 496 00:31:47.539 --> 00:31:51.259 to and want you guys to talk about is some of the receptivity. It's 497 00:31:51.339 --> 00:31:55.180 no surprise again, that pro abortion people, especially those who in majority, 498 00:31:55.220 --> 00:31:57.099 I would say, on the college campus, would probably identify maybe as pro 499 00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:00.140 choice. where. I could be wrong about that, I guess, depending 500 00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.730 on the campus. Either way, it's no surprise you'd be rejected there. 501 00:32:04.250 --> 00:32:07.130 Of course, the media and rejection that's there. But what about with then 502 00:32:07.930 --> 00:32:13.410 the church? What about those who are on the college campus who claim to 503 00:32:13.490 --> 00:32:17.319 be Christians? What's your receptivity there? I know it's mixed, but is 504 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.400 there a negative reaction and if so, how do you respond to that? 505 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:29.200 Yeah, that's a big and really important question and I think it's similar, 506 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.950 I would say, in terms of the receptivity. As far as you know, 507 00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:35.589 are we wanted or allowed to come in? And that's a No. 508 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:37.549 I mean, yeah, what we would need to write if this was being 509 00:32:37.589 --> 00:32:42.269 taught in churches, schools, homes, you know, but so many people 510 00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:45.180 don't even know we had a kid last year at our youth camp who's in 511 00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:49.380 middle school and he was a you know, obviously sent there by a Christian 512 00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.500 family, pro life family, and he was leaning pro choice. And he 513 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:53.539 says this and he says but after this, no way, you know, 514 00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:57.859 but he's never been taught. And so people anyway, there's a lot there. 515 00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:02.289 But there's I think the establishment of just kind of the business of the 516 00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:06.450 church can kind of in the status quote, can sometimes take precedence over. 517 00:33:06.890 --> 00:33:09.170 Okay, what's actually important, and we just this is always what we've business 518 00:33:09.170 --> 00:33:13.160 as usual, what we've done, and so something to come in and disrupt 519 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.039 that and we're not sure and this is controversial and we're going to alienate people 520 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.920 and maybe this isn't even, you know, about the Gospel. So maybe 521 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.440 we should just kind of avoid it and not talk about it. And then 522 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:28.869 so when when we do or we try to meet with pastors or it's a 523 00:33:28.910 --> 00:33:30.990 lot of times called shoulder or, you know, universities. They don't want 524 00:33:31.029 --> 00:33:34.269 us, but but it's amazing. So then when you do kind of go 525 00:33:34.390 --> 00:33:37.789 around that leadership, if they don't want to talk to us, then the 526 00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:42.819 students. You know, we've been to a seminary recently and and they're, 527 00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.339 you know, I'm sure, teaching a lot of great things, but we're 528 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:47.059 not welcome. And so, but then the students, you know, I 529 00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:52.859 have this conversation with one of the students here comes by and he's wrestling with 530 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:55.329 even just what he's supposed to do as a he used to be as he 531 00:33:55.369 --> 00:33:59.369 said, he used to do street preaching out with and he's an NC state 532 00:34:00.890 --> 00:34:05.650 and you know, he's asking me all these questions that I'm confounded that I 533 00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:07.130 am having answer for him. I'm so grateful for the opportunity, but literally, 534 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:08.769 he is, you know, and don't go to heaven any way. 535 00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:13.119 And is it something we really should stand up about and people just need to 536 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.880 hear the Gospel. And this is so, I think, just evident in 537 00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:21.199 of what of what the situation is and what people are they're not being taught 538 00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.909 to deal with the actual issues of today's society and culture. And you know, 539 00:34:24.110 --> 00:34:25.989 and he says, you know, by the end a conversation I feel 540 00:34:25.989 --> 00:34:28.510 like God is, you know, using you to speak to me, like 541 00:34:28.590 --> 00:34:30.949 I need to stand up and I need to see up against he's like admitting, 542 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:32.989 like I'm afraid to confront anything in our culture, even like ever say 543 00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.949 that homosexuality is wrong or anything like abortions a guide. I do need to 544 00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:38.619 see end up. And you know, there was another woman that same place 545 00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:42.340 who came by and she said she was angry at first. She said, 546 00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:44.619 I know they warned us, you were they're going to be pictures here. 547 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.460 But I she's I I'm a Christian, but you know, I've had an 548 00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:50.739 abortion and this is offensive to me and this is hurtful, and I just 549 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.449 calmly, gently explain to her like I'm so sorry that you know whenever you 550 00:34:53.489 --> 00:34:58.250 went through and but you know, obviously you you know. She said she 551 00:34:58.369 --> 00:35:00.329 regretted it, but I said, obviously you reat that. Do you really 552 00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:02.969 not want other people have the chance to not have to go through that and 553 00:35:04.090 --> 00:35:06.369 just to be able to see the truth? You know? And and one 554 00:35:06.369 --> 00:35:09.119 of ourvolunteers asked her and would you have gone through, would you have gotten 555 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:13.239 an abortion if you had seen these pictures? And she said probably not. 556 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:15.920 And so no one had ever told her and you know. And so I 557 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:17.840 was able to offer her, I was able to pray with her. Jell 558 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.440 me pray for her. I said, how do you ever feel like you've 559 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.510 gotten healing and, you know, forgiveness for what you what how we did 560 00:35:23.630 --> 00:35:27.909 and what happened, and she said no, it's never been address. I 561 00:35:27.909 --> 00:35:29.710 said, well, you know they're there are resources. You know, when 562 00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:31.429 I gave her the post abortion healing Info and she said can I have another 563 00:35:31.469 --> 00:35:34.429 one? I have a friend who had just got an abortion. I'm like 564 00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:36.860 yeah, of course. So it's just yeah, it's just sad to me, 565 00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:38.820 I guess, when the stuff is not being addressed, and I could 566 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:43.699 tell you story after story of things that I'm shocked by that just this is 567 00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:47.179 not dealt with in the church. Yeah, and there's this this mindset that 568 00:35:47.420 --> 00:35:52.570 we encounter so much among even like just very evangelical circles that doctrinally and otherwise 569 00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:57.769 I would typically associate with, where we kind of think that, you know, 570 00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.570 obviously we recognize that we want to change people's heart through the Gospel and 571 00:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.679 not just change their external behavior, and so, you know, I get 572 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:08.320 that and I sympathize with that, but we kind of create, you know, 573 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.440 as a maybe a faulty outflow of that is that, okay, we 574 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.400 don't need to actually be concerned about justice, we don't need to be concerned 575 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:21.190 about matters of physical life and death, because we just need to preach the 576 00:36:21.269 --> 00:36:23.789 Gospel to people. We just need to only share that and not really worry 577 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:27.630 about you know, because we think that abortion will kind of take care of 578 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:30.989 itself or racism will take care of itself if we're just doing evangelization. And 579 00:36:31.389 --> 00:36:36.139 I think that's faulty on two fronts. One, you know, just biblically, 580 00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:37.900 you look at the fact that God does care about justice, that God 581 00:36:38.019 --> 00:36:43.059 does care about how we treat our neighbor in terms of their actual physical needs 582 00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:46.849 as well as their eternal need for salvation. The parable of the Good Samaritan 583 00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:52.889 and Luke Ten I. It's really revealing that Jesus uses that as a example 584 00:36:52.050 --> 00:36:55.969 for the fulfilling the greatest command to love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah, 585 00:36:57.010 --> 00:37:00.250 the second commandment. And you know, you look at that parable and it's 586 00:37:00.289 --> 00:37:07.599 almost telling that the person that Jesus holds up as the hero didn't, at 587 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:08.920 least in the story. There wasn't any sense of like, you know, 588 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.159 giving here's the the center's prayer, Here's, you know, how to have 589 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.230 peace with God and here's how you can, you know, go to here's 590 00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:17.750 a church you can go to. Know, he saw that there was a 591 00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:22.710 physical, tangible need that his neighbor had that was literally a life and death 592 00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:25.670 need and he stepped in and intervened and ministered to that need, and Jesus 593 00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:29.909 holds that up as the example. Yeah, and so then historically you see 594 00:37:29.949 --> 00:37:34.340 people like a missionary, so many people. You See Amy Carmichael, Alice, 595 00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:37.099 see Lee Harris, who's one not as well known. She was a 596 00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:42.260 missionary to the Congo and the urban nineteen hundreds, sent from from Britain and 597 00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:46.170 when she got down there she's doing her evangelization, but she also becomes aware 598 00:37:46.210 --> 00:37:53.889 of a situation where the Belgian basically the Belgian king, has people who are 599 00:37:54.570 --> 00:38:01.039 subjugating the local population to essentially be forced labor for rubber production, because rubber 600 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.920 at that time was a very important commodity in the world. And they are 601 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:12.239 literally threatening these people with death, with like maiming them and like actually dismembering 602 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.829 hands and arms and feet. And she goes on this campaign to show the 603 00:38:15.909 --> 00:38:21.750 pictures. She took a lot of pictures documenting the injustices against the Congolesee. 604 00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:25.550 Yeah, and through that was able to eventually put international pressure on the king 605 00:38:25.590 --> 00:38:30.420 of Belgium to treat the people humanely and to no longer force them into that. 606 00:38:31.059 --> 00:38:35.219 But she did that as an outgrowth of her walk of faith as a 607 00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:37.539 Christian minister and it wasn't something where she just said, Oh, let's just 608 00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:42.489 preach the Gospel and just kind of allow that to you know, people will 609 00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:45.449 kind of put the puzzle together on their own. Yeah, she went directly 610 00:38:45.489 --> 00:38:49.329 and said no, these are literal people who are dying and suffering and as 611 00:38:49.369 --> 00:38:52.769 a Christian I should be on the forefront of the fight to in this injustice 612 00:38:52.809 --> 00:38:57.000 and not just leave that, you know, passively, to someone else. 613 00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.119 Absolutely it's a good example. I mean, you know I've had conversation, 614 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:02.280 I'm sure you guys have to, of pro choice, pro abortion, people 615 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:07.840 who kind of want to equate us with like the Christ I've been called the 616 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.750 Christian teliband before. You Christians, you know you're nothing but the problem. 617 00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:15.789 But Will you start to recount human history and you look at injustice? As 618 00:39:15.829 --> 00:39:20.469 you know, Chinese footbinding comes to mind, where they would bind up little 619 00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:22.590 girl's feet so they would stay small because that was attractive to the men. 620 00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:29.940 It was Christians that got that injustice. That's right removed from that society, 621 00:39:30.739 --> 00:39:35.260 even if I forget what it's called, but it's in India where if a 622 00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.329 guy, a man, husband was to die, his wife would actually be 623 00:39:38.369 --> 00:39:44.010 burned alive with him. That was a practice in India and Christians got that. 624 00:39:44.130 --> 00:39:46.650 So that's you bring that up. Is just another example. And certainly 625 00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:52.809 as Christians we have our flaws and the Lord is sanctifying and making us more 626 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.880 like Jesus every day and then. But it is Christians who do and who 627 00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:00.960 are called to confront evil. And you know, as far as this in 628 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.920 the last few minutes that we have, as far as appealing to Christians who 629 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.510 might say something to the effect of yet understand what you're doing, and I 630 00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:13.070 see you know, people have been the minds have been changed, the Gospel 631 00:40:13.110 --> 00:40:15.670 has been shared, babies even been saved, but still yet. I don't 632 00:40:15.670 --> 00:40:20.630 think it's appropriate to show people victim images. What would you say to that 633 00:40:20.789 --> 00:40:24.179 person who is open, who is, you know, like they're pushing back 634 00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:28.699 because they feel like you're being judgmental and you're being whatever, but they're willing 635 00:40:28.739 --> 00:40:30.460 to hear. What would you say to that person? I would say I 636 00:40:30.539 --> 00:40:37.769 would just lovingly and as a brother challenge their question in a sense, and 637 00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:43.369 just ask why wouldn't you want to show the victims? Because you know, 638 00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:46.210 we know abortions wrong and we know, you know, hopefully for a lot 639 00:40:46.250 --> 00:40:50.760 of our friends listen to this podcast, that this is something that's happening, 640 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.199 that this these are real people that are being killed every day. And you 641 00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:58.039 know, by God's grace, you know, and only by his race, 642 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.880 we are in the state of mind to where we've been regenerated, were open 643 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.389 to the truth. We're seeking that and we're sensitive to it. But for 644 00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:08.469 people who do not, are not there yet, there needs to be that 645 00:41:08.590 --> 00:41:13.389 hard dose of reality and it really does take seeing. You know, we're 646 00:41:13.429 --> 00:41:16.469 told in the FESIANS, I think it's eleven, to have no part in 647 00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:22.099 the unfruitful work of artness, but instead to expose them. Yeah, and 648 00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:25.179 that is our calling as Christians. And you know, you can look biblically 649 00:41:25.219 --> 00:41:29.980 at how you know even the crucifixion we were talking about before the podcast, 650 00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:35.090 that that was apart from the man, the side of man's involvement, and 651 00:41:35.250 --> 00:41:39.050 it from God's perspective. This was ordained by him and it was a it 652 00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:45.250 was a bloody public spectacle, it was something that visually showed in a very 653 00:41:45.329 --> 00:41:50.440 public way that this is the horror of your sin, this is the ugliness 654 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:52.280 of your sin, but then also this is the love of God, this 655 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.000 is how much he was willing to sacrifice and go through on behalf to reconcile 656 00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.800 you to him. Yeah, and so that's important, I think. And 657 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.349 then just also historically, you look at a lot of people you know who 658 00:42:04.389 --> 00:42:07.630 probably listen here maybe watch the film amazing grace. They're familiar with William Wilberforce, 659 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:14.630 Thomas Clarkston. You look at the ending of segregation and just how the 660 00:42:14.789 --> 00:42:20.179 marches that Dr King used were designed to make people uncomfortable with racism and force 661 00:42:20.260 --> 00:42:24.300 them to see peaceful protesters who were being attacked, you know, by police 662 00:42:24.340 --> 00:42:28.260 when they were not rioting, they were not looting, they were just trying 663 00:42:28.300 --> 00:42:31.050 to march and draw attention to how they were being treated unfairly. And so 664 00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:36.210 I would just challenge anyone who isn't sure about this look at history, look 665 00:42:36.210 --> 00:42:38.170 at the Bible, look at the fact that, yes, this is uncomfortable 666 00:42:38.210 --> 00:42:42.449 and I will freely admit that to some degree you go out there and it 667 00:42:42.530 --> 00:42:45.519 never quite feels like, oh, this is easy this is something that I 668 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:47.920 enjoy doing. I love showing abortion photos to people. It's like, no, 669 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.679 I don't. But the victims ultimately have no voice. They are completely 670 00:42:53.800 --> 00:43:00.190 dependent upon someone who is not themselves in danger caring enough to step up as 671 00:43:00.230 --> 00:43:02.710 if it was their own life and to speak out and to be a voice 672 00:43:02.869 --> 00:43:07.710 on their behalf. And so if there's a better method than showing the victim 673 00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:09.510 images, I am all for it and I will put my signs down and 674 00:43:09.670 --> 00:43:14.059 Jump On that bandwagon in a heartbeat. But yeah, I think it would 675 00:43:14.059 --> 00:43:20.659 be intellectually and spiritually very challenging to to come up with the case that the 676 00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:23.659 victim images are not effective, even if they are something that causes people to 677 00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:28.449 be hangry. Yeah, yeah, a lot of our gage as American Christians 678 00:43:28.690 --> 00:43:31.690 is what something makes me feel like, what I think, what I feel, 679 00:43:32.329 --> 00:43:37.650 and it's just not that's the the whole point of this podcast, not 680 00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:40.840 just this episode, but the thing from from beginning to end, is that 681 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.400 we can't base what we do as prolifers on how we feel and what society 682 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.719 says. It has to be founded in the word of God. When we 683 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:57.030 look at particular behavior ministry, calling methodology, it should always be. What 684 00:43:57.269 --> 00:44:00.510 does the Bible say? What does the Scripture say? And you know, 685 00:44:00.550 --> 00:44:04.110 I've had people try to argue about and then we use as sub what counsels? 686 00:44:04.150 --> 00:44:07.750 We use victim images, we use them in our brochures and we use 687 00:44:07.789 --> 00:44:09.579 them if we display them. We don't always, but when we do we 688 00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:14.380 display them away from the areas of engagement with the mom who's abortion minded, 689 00:44:14.619 --> 00:44:16.739 because it just tends to be more of a cordial conversation, or at least 690 00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:21.659 more of an engaging conversation. But I do see them to be effective. 691 00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:23.369 When I had I've had Christians tell me, and even they are affective, 692 00:44:23.369 --> 00:44:27.050 we shouldn't use them because they're offensive, and I'm like, well, chapter 693 00:44:27.170 --> 00:44:30.690 in verse, because the Bible tells me that God is certainly into displaying victim 694 00:44:30.730 --> 00:44:35.329 images. Jesus Christ is the ultimate example. We see that through the the 695 00:44:35.530 --> 00:44:38.920 New Testament of the Old Testament, how God shows images. We are visual 696 00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:44.480 creatures and God, God, capitalizes on that, so to speak, to 697 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.039 bring certain realities to our attention. So I appreciate what you guys are doing. 698 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.480 Appreciate you guys being out there. It's uncomfortable, I know, and 699 00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:55.030 you know what's kind of like what Jesus called us to, though. What 700 00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:59.230 did he say? Take up your couch and lay on it with me, 701 00:45:00.550 --> 00:45:02.389 he says. Take up your cross and follow me. It's a cross to 702 00:45:02.469 --> 00:45:06.389 bear going out to these college campuses. It's across to bear. You know, 703 00:45:06.590 --> 00:45:08.500 it is the same with what you do and just how you know you're 704 00:45:08.539 --> 00:45:12.860 out there ministering on the front lines and it's not comfortable and there's that happiness 705 00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:15.059 of knowing that the woman going in like at you know, it's what we 706 00:45:15.099 --> 00:45:17.099 do. At least we can plan a seed a lot of the time, 707 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:21.019 and we do and we see lives say from that. But I know there's, 708 00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:23.289 you know, certain heaviness when you know that this is the final chance 709 00:45:23.369 --> 00:45:27.809 for that baby. So I commend you guys for what you're doing and appreciate 710 00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.289 your your similar mindset because, you know, you know with the whole thing 711 00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:35.369 about it being offensive and how Christians kind of don't have a category in their 712 00:45:35.409 --> 00:45:37.480 mind for things that might be offensive. But maybe that's good, you know. 713 00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:42.480 You look. You mentioned the gospels and how Jesus himself was very offensive 714 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:47.039 to some people and he knew how to handle being graceful with being truthful and 715 00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.949 sometimes he had to call things out firmly as they were. And you know, 716 00:45:52.070 --> 00:45:54.510 it was him who who said of our walk as his followers that a 717 00:45:55.070 --> 00:45:59.230 servant is not greater than his master. If they hate me, they will 718 00:45:59.269 --> 00:46:01.150 hate you also. If they persecuted me, they will prosecute you also, 719 00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.019 and we just have to have a category for that that, even in the 720 00:46:05.059 --> 00:46:07.420 United States, with all of our freedom and all of our prosperity, that 721 00:46:08.179 --> 00:46:12.860 we are called to suffer like the master at times, and if persecutions what 722 00:46:12.980 --> 00:46:15.340 it is, then that's our road and we have to accept it because that's 723 00:46:15.340 --> 00:46:20.329 the road he went on before us. Yeah, that's good. Well, 724 00:46:20.369 --> 00:46:22.610 guys, I'm going to wrap this thing up, but I do appreciate you 725 00:46:22.769 --> 00:46:27.489 guys coming and sharing. Appreciate your heart to serve, appreciate, you know 726 00:46:28.130 --> 00:46:30.570 the get, the fact that you guys are sharing the Gospel and what you're 727 00:46:30.610 --> 00:46:37.480 doing, but also confronting this evil and just keep doing it, keep serving 728 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:43.400 the Lord and absolutely friend. He use exposing evil and by God's grace and 729 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:45.239 we'll see abortion come to an end in our nation. I hope so, 730 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.590 and if it doesn't happen, it won't be because we didn't do it. 731 00:46:47.630 --> 00:46:52.230 Dares. Yeah, yeah, Amen, you've got the good work. Thank 732 00:46:52.269 --> 00:46:54.469 you. Yes, I God's grace. Yeah, yeah, well, I 733 00:46:54.510 --> 00:47:00.150 appreciate you guys who've tuned into this podcast and just hope that you guys will 734 00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:02.139 share this podcast with others. If you want to get in touch with these 735 00:47:02.179 --> 00:47:07.659 guys, it is. What's the whims? Go to abortion no dot Org. 736 00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:09.980 Okays, our website and, as you could probably expect, it does 737 00:47:10.059 --> 00:47:15.219 have some graphic content on there that's nevertheless challenging and needed, but you can 738 00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:17.409 go there and you can touch with us. Okay. So abortion no dot 739 00:47:17.409 --> 00:47:21.409 Org can in touch with these guys and if you want to get in touch 740 00:47:21.449 --> 00:47:24.170 with me, you can email me at d parks, at cities for lifecom. 741 00:47:24.409 --> 00:47:28.210 You can go on our website, CHARLOTTE DOT cities for Life Dot Org. 742 00:47:28.929 --> 00:47:40.440 And until next time, God bless give for love, give me our 743 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:52.829 loft for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too 744 00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:55.309 precious. And some you