Should We Use Graphic Images to Change Minds About Abortion? Interview with Joanna Keilson and Lincoln Brandenburg from Center for Bioethical Reform

WEBVTT100:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me,200:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.750Lord, I am yours. Welcometo the Gospel Center pro life podcast.300:00:10.949 --> 00:00:14.589In this episode we're going to talkwith members of the Center for bioethical reform400:00:14.910 --> 00:00:19.750about using graphic images to change mindsabout abortion. This is an important topic,500:00:19.829 --> 00:00:36.250so stay tuned. I felt showpassis touch your use me. Welcome600:00:36.289 --> 00:00:40.289to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys who listen, and700:00:40.850 --> 00:00:46.689we have some special guests here todaythat are from the Center for bioethical reform.800:00:46.810 --> 00:00:50.000I said that right. That's correct. Yes, maybe even better known900:00:50.000 --> 00:00:55.840as CBR, and Miss Joanna Kilson, yes, Yep, and Lincoln.1000:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.840I don't know your last name,Brandenburg, Brandenburg. Okay, so these1100:00:59.880 --> 00:01:03.399guys are going to share with usa little bit of what they do as1200:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.310an organization, kind of what they'refocus and their mission is, and then1300:01:07.629 --> 00:01:11.469hopefully some stories of what God hasdone and how some hearts and minds have1400:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.150been changed. So real quick,Joanna, introduce yourself what your role is1500:01:15.430 --> 00:01:22.939with CBR and what that involves.Sure. So, I am the director1600:01:22.939 --> 00:01:27.180of recruitment and intern program director,so I'm involved in various roles, but1700:01:27.780 --> 00:01:33.930a lot of what I do isrecruiting and training staff, of volunteers,1800:01:33.969 --> 00:01:37.810new staff, and there's we allwear a lot of hats, so there's1900:01:37.810 --> 00:01:40.049a lot that needs to be done. I understand that done them. If2000:01:40.209 --> 00:01:42.329we're in a bunch of hat that'sthe most concise way to say a little2100:01:42.329 --> 00:01:46.170bit of what I do. Okay, cool and Lincoln. Well, I2200:01:46.290 --> 00:01:49.439am, on paper, my rolesthe development of staff, or sees me2300:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.599the director of staff developments. Okay, and, like Joanna says, we2400:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.640all wear a lot of different hatsand a lot of my role also includes2500:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.879just doing activism outings and planning thethings will do out on the streets,2600:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.670which I'm sure we'll talk about hereat some point. And Yeah, it's2700:02:04.709 --> 00:02:08.270I've been here for about eight yearsdoing this and we've we've traveled where a2800:02:08.349 --> 00:02:14.830national organization with international affiliates, andthen Joan and I respectively have both been2900:02:14.909 --> 00:02:17.780to probably about what ten to twelvedifferent states, and then you've been out3000:02:17.780 --> 00:02:23.419of the country some working with otherpro life organizations. I'm working with people3100:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.099to advance the mission. Okay.Well, I'm glad you bring that up.3200:02:27.139 --> 00:02:30.330Advance the mission. What is themission then, of the Center for3300:02:30.409 --> 00:02:37.129about ethical reform. It sounds reallylike scientific e and in medically and stuff3400:02:37.210 --> 00:02:38.689like that. I'm sure there's someof that. But what's the mission?3500:02:39.050 --> 00:02:46.800Well, we are very passionate thatabortion represents an evil that is so profound3600:02:46.800 --> 00:02:53.520that you cannot fully understand it unlessyou see it. Okay, and so3700:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.189a lot of what we're known foraround a pro life circles and wherever is3800:02:59.349 --> 00:03:01.430that? Where the people that bringup the pictures and okay, we've actually3900:03:01.469 --> 00:03:08.909compiled a pretty much the largest inthe world archive of professionally taken abortion victim4000:03:08.909 --> 00:03:14.060images. Yeah, and most ofthe if you even Google for abortion victim4100:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.780images, it's probably our photos thatare going to show up because they're they're4200:03:16.780 --> 00:03:22.020very high resolution. We usually havethem in a picture with some kind of4300:03:22.060 --> 00:03:24.500size reference, like a coin ora familiar objects of the people. When4400:03:24.539 --> 00:03:28.490these pictures are made large, peoplecan see what it is and see how,4500:03:29.090 --> 00:03:32.289even the early trimester, how welldeveloped the baby is. But we've4600:03:32.330 --> 00:03:37.250really based this on there's there's biblicalreasons for the use of the pictures.4700:03:37.330 --> 00:03:42.319There's historical reasons that I think arevery compelling and it's something that we see4800:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.000both in society at large and alsoin the Christian community, that it's one4900:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.360thing to have a theoretical position onthe subject, but seeing it for what5000:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.710it really is is what really gripspeople, both in their conscience and in5100:03:54.750 --> 00:03:58.189their intellect, to see that,yeah, this is a real human life,5200:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.830this is a real baby, andabortion is an act of violence.5300:04:00.069 --> 00:04:04.349Yeah, absolutely. I know wehave in our brochures that we hand out5400:04:04.389 --> 00:04:09.270at the abortion center, on oneof the inside pages actually, when of5500:04:09.349 --> 00:04:12.539you guys, pictures of a victimof abortion at eleven weeks. We feel5600:04:12.580 --> 00:04:15.579like it's very effective to show itto an abortion amounted woman going into an5700:04:15.620 --> 00:04:18.379abortion clinic. We do it ina measured way, you know, ask5800:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.019her, can is it art ifI show you what abortion looks like?5900:04:21.220 --> 00:04:26.649And we've seen God use that imagein some some pretty powerful way. So6000:04:26.769 --> 00:04:30.610you guys are doing that and moreof a big picture way. Right.6100:04:30.730 --> 00:04:35.209So Joanna shere real quick. Sobasically what I'm here from Lincoln is,6200:04:35.410 --> 00:04:38.920if I was just to make itin a nutshell, you're trying to make6300:04:39.000 --> 00:04:44.560the reality of abortion evident, inthe violence of abortion evident in a visual6400:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.120way. And where do you dothat at? Primarily or where do you6500:04:47.199 --> 00:04:49.920do that? I mean maybe there'sa mix, maybe there's not just one6600:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.149place where you guys go. Butwhere does that take place at? So6700:04:55.230 --> 00:04:58.629we do a lot of work oncollege campuses. That is the age range6800:04:59.310 --> 00:05:03.110where the majority of people are gettingabortions. Yeah, and they're twenty.6900:05:03.310 --> 00:05:10.220So college and after. Yeah,and it is the thinking grounds of our7000:05:10.699 --> 00:05:12.860of our nation, and so wedo a lot of work there. But7100:05:12.980 --> 00:05:16.500really wherever there are people and whereverwe are invited, which is usually the7200:05:16.540 --> 00:05:20.259streets, because we're not often forI wanted, and that's why there's neat7300:05:20.610 --> 00:05:26.050tod do what we do. Sothe streets of any city, country,7400:05:26.089 --> 00:05:29.009where ever they are people, wepass out there, sure, but really7500:05:29.089 --> 00:05:32.449meanly showing them the humanity of thepreborn and humanity of abortion. So let7600:05:32.490 --> 00:05:35.959me just kind of correct me ifI'm wrong. Kind of set of visual7700:05:36.279 --> 00:05:42.959through audio for people. You guysgo to a college campus and you set7800:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.680up victim images and if people don'tknow exactly what we're talking we're talking about7900:05:46.680 --> 00:05:48.680victim images. Were talking about picturesof a boarded babies. Right, yes,8000:05:48.920 --> 00:05:53.189these are victims of a board portion, and you set up these images8100:05:53.910 --> 00:05:57.189and again, they're not just likethese kind of rough hand drawn images,8200:05:57.230 --> 00:06:01.750they're actually real images that have beentaken and you kind of just have a8300:06:01.870 --> 00:06:08.819display there in the college campus andfolks come by, college students, professors8400:06:08.899 --> 00:06:12.860come by, and your goal isjust to come and just make them angry.8500:06:13.180 --> 00:06:15.579Is that right? Well, that'sthere's a little news to that.8600:06:16.019 --> 00:06:21.490It does often make people angry,and we do actually I'm of the mindset8700:06:21.490 --> 00:06:25.810that when people get angry, thatis actually a good sign, because it8800:06:25.970 --> 00:06:30.889means that the position that they previouslyheld and perhaps are still trying to defend,8900:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.279they're realizing that they're defending the indefensible. Yeah, and nobody, like9000:06:34.480 --> 00:06:39.399myself included, nobody, likes tohave a challenge of a position that we9100:06:39.560 --> 00:06:43.319hold very close challenged, and weespecially don't like to think that Hey,9200:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.350maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm youknow, and you're holding up something as9300:06:46.389 --> 00:06:51.230being about human rights and about women'srights and there's all these euphemism surrounding the9400:06:51.310 --> 00:06:56.670way the public at large thinks aboutabortion, and when we show the pictures9500:06:56.750 --> 00:07:00.629for what they are, we're dismantlingthat euphemism. And so one thing our9600:07:00.750 --> 00:07:04.339founder, Greg Cunningham, is quotedoften too saying is that when we show9700:07:04.939 --> 00:07:11.459the victims of abortion, we arenot protesting abortion because abortion protest itself.9800:07:11.500 --> 00:07:14.660Yeah, when you show it,yeah, that's that's a good, good9900:07:14.699 --> 00:07:18.850quote here and we go. Ireally aren't. Goal is to each that10000:07:18.930 --> 00:07:23.050middle fifty percent. So if youthink about there's maybe twenty five percent on10100:07:23.129 --> 00:07:26.370one side who are strongly pro lifeand then twenty five percent who are strongly10200:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.319pro choice or pro abortion. There'sthat middle fifty percent who are kind of10300:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.120you know, maybe they call themselvespro choice, sometimes even pro life,10400:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.600but they're really just kind of unsureand they're very swayable. But those people10500:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.480do not come to us. Wehave to go to them. They are10600:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.480not looking for the information, they'renot listening this podcast, they're not at10700:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.990the abortion clinic, you know.I mean they might be at some point,10800:07:46.069 --> 00:07:47.589but yeah, they're really just goingabout their daily life, and so10900:07:48.110 --> 00:07:50.750we have to go to them.And a lot of them are more open11000:07:50.790 --> 00:07:56.269and they're they're not the vocal minorityon either side. They're they're more silent,11100:07:56.629 --> 00:07:59.420the final majority, and so thoseare really the people that we are11200:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.860trying to reach that are more swayable. Yeah, and they are or open.11300:08:03.060 --> 00:08:05.379Yeah, and along those lines,with that specific grouping our audience,11400:08:05.819 --> 00:08:09.180we tend to not very often.I mean obviously there are exceptions, but11500:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.529typically we're not going out in frontof abortion clinics per se. And obviously,11600:08:13.610 --> 00:08:16.850you know, we very much supportand partner with and believe in ministries,11700:08:16.889 --> 00:08:18.569you know, like your own,yes, cities for life, that11800:08:18.689 --> 00:08:22.769do that because the need is sogreat. And and you guys, you11900:08:22.850 --> 00:08:24.689know I commend you that. Youknow you're seeing little baby say, because12000:08:24.730 --> 00:08:28.120you're out there right where the theaction happens, right where the killing is12100:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.600going to happen if someone doesn't stepinto intervene. But a lot of that12200:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.720mindset we have with reaching that thatmiddle demographic of the people who are just12300:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.440kind of on the fence or who, you know, hold positions in their12400:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.950mind that are contradictory but maybe justdon't realize it. On the FT are12500:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.350are they're just apathetic about it.Yeah, the with reaching them it's the12600:08:48.470 --> 00:08:52.149mindset that we're trying to not onlysave individual babies from abortion, but also12700:08:52.230 --> 00:08:58.500trying to change public opinion and tryingto shift the way the culture views abortion12800:08:58.659 --> 00:09:03.820and and really dismantled that euphemism ofchoice, which is the word people associate12900:09:03.899 --> 00:09:07.379with abortion, so that next timethey you know, here, CNN or13000:09:07.419 --> 00:09:11.649whoever, talking about women's reproductive healthcareor the freedom of choice, they now13100:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.409have a picture emblaze in their mindthat they will not forget of what that13200:09:15.490 --> 00:09:18.250choice actually means and that there's anactual, real victim, a real person13300:09:18.370 --> 00:09:22.889who had to suffer as the casualty, yeah, of that choice. We13400:09:22.970 --> 00:09:26.360don't have the media or anyone inposes of power on our side, so13500:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.879we have to be at me,we have to go out. Where else13600:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.960are the going to see this information? Nowhere, so you have to broadcast13700:09:33.039 --> 00:09:39.029it. So in one sense you'reforcing a necessary conversation. You're you're forcing13800:09:39.110 --> 00:09:43.110people. When I say force,a lot of people don't like that,13900:09:43.830 --> 00:09:48.990but the reality is that that media, even what we're dealing with now with14000:09:48.149 --> 00:09:52.509a think while we were talking before, the podcast mentioned with the Jord George14100:09:52.549 --> 00:09:56.379Floyd thing. It's like people areforced to confront an evil by that image.14200:09:56.379 --> 00:10:01.220I remember I watch the video ofthe police officer with his knee on14300:10:01.299 --> 00:10:03.500this guy's neck and I just aboutstarted weeping right in front of my kids.14400:10:03.500 --> 00:10:07.409I'm going through facebook and I seeit, I'm like my daughter asked14500:10:07.450 --> 00:10:11.850me what's going on. I wasjust forced to be confronted with a reality.14600:10:11.889 --> 00:10:15.970And so you guys, in onesense or for or sing in the14700:10:16.090 --> 00:10:18.090market place of ideas. That's whatthe college campus is used to be.14800:10:18.250 --> 00:10:22.120Now, yes, more of amarket place of Marxism, but anyway,14900:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.200we won't go there. You're forcingthem to think about things that they have15000:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.360already decided about, but really they'renot decided about and that and that's important15100:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.190and and I'll just openly admit thatI I am fine with the mindset and15200:10:35.230 --> 00:10:37.950I know some Christians kind of feelsqueamish about this, but the fact is15300:10:39.110 --> 00:10:43.590that we are forcing that debate andwe are bringing this out to the public15400:10:43.629 --> 00:10:46.990square, to an audience kind ofwithout their consense. Yeah, and if15500:10:48.070 --> 00:10:50.740you and a lot of that isjust that mindset that you know, you15600:10:50.779 --> 00:10:54.500look at the biblical profits, youlook at modern social or form movements like15700:10:54.580 --> 00:10:58.700Dr Martin Luther King Jr and someof his his writings and his tactics,15800:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.299and you just see where, aslong as we have this mindset that we're15900:11:01.299 --> 00:11:05.610going to and obviously I recognize inthe context of an abortion clinic and an16000:11:05.610 --> 00:11:09.049abortion minded woman, this is alittle bit different. Yeah, absolutely,16100:11:09.049 --> 00:11:11.809but in terms of the general public, we can't wait for them to come16200:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.129to us or consent to come andhear our message and to see these images,16300:11:16.169 --> 00:11:18.759because nobody wants to see this.Yeah, and the whole point is16400:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.159that we are so pathetically, sadlyapathetic and comfortable with being sheltered from the16500:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.279hard realities like this that exists evenin our own country. And so we16600:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.190are intentionally going out to places thatare busy and that a lot of eyeballs16700:11:33.230 --> 00:11:35.509will see our message and and granted, we're not going to pressure people to16800:11:35.629 --> 00:11:39.029look, we're not going to chasethem down to hand them a Rochure,16900:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.429but we do want to create asituation where the default alts is that they17000:11:43.509 --> 00:11:46.179will see this image and they haveto choose to look away, rather than17100:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.620having this image hidden and they haveto choose to look yeah, and so17200:11:50.740 --> 00:11:54.340then you get, you know,William Weber Force, the British abolitionist who's17300:11:54.340 --> 00:11:58.700wellknown for bringing into slavery in theBritish Empire. He's quoted as having said17400:11:58.740 --> 00:12:03.250that you can choose to look theother way, but you can never again17500:12:03.289 --> 00:12:05.409say, but you did not know. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you17600:12:05.490 --> 00:12:09.289know, as we were talking aboutbefore we started the podcast, it's a17700:12:09.370 --> 00:12:13.009reality that you see in the Bibleand it's a reality that we know that17800:12:13.129 --> 00:12:18.799human beings are visual creatures. Godknows that, right, he knows that17900:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.480and he plays on that. Wesee that Biblical imagery as we're reading.18000:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.879The scriptures are pictures. The prophetschoose pictures when we talk a little bit18100:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.110more about that, but we arevisual creatures and when you put an image18200:12:30.549 --> 00:12:33.429in someone's pathway, I mean,if you think about it and if people18300:12:33.429 --> 00:12:37.350are going to accuse, you know, prolifers or accuse you guys of being18400:12:37.470 --> 00:12:43.750just blatantly like provocative or whatever,Peter at the other day I was actually18500:12:43.750 --> 00:12:46.059at Chick Fil A. Love chickflay. Oh, yes, it's some Christian18600:12:46.100 --> 00:12:48.539chicken, that's right, and Iwas there in the chickflay parking lot and18700:12:48.580 --> 00:12:52.460I looked up and there was abillboard in the chickflay parking lot, by18800:12:52.500 --> 00:12:54.820the way, that was a person'sface, half of the person's facing,18900:12:54.820 --> 00:12:58.929the other half was a chickens face, and it was something like it wasn't19000:12:58.929 --> 00:13:01.529like chickens or people too but itwas something like that, and they were19100:13:01.649 --> 00:13:05.610forcing people in the chick fil aparking lot to deal with the reality that19200:13:05.730 --> 00:13:11.250they're part of killing chickens. Now, you and I I that's ridiculous.19300:13:11.370 --> 00:13:13.399Chickens are Yummy, right, Idon't agree with them bad you admire their19400:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.120moxie. That, yeah, that'stheir messaging. There really need to be19500:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.360yeah, and so, in amore important way, you guys are doing19600:13:20.480 --> 00:13:26.840that in a college campus context.So you have what's called, if I'm19700:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.950not mistaken about this, the gapproject. Describe that side awareness project.19800:13:31.990 --> 00:13:37.629Okay, so gap stands for genocideawareness project. What meaneth that? What19900:13:37.750 --> 00:13:41.149do you mean by genocide awareness project? Well, there's a sense in which20000:13:41.779 --> 00:13:46.899we're we're trying to really provoke thepublic to think about abortion not in terms20100:13:46.899 --> 00:13:50.740of just the individual death of onelife, but also thinking in terms of20200:13:50.899 --> 00:13:54.139that this is a massive genocide.This is something and I think there's a20300:13:54.179 --> 00:14:00.330good case for that, because youlook at the comparison between abortion and any20400:14:00.409 --> 00:14:03.330other group of humans throughout history thathave been deprived and stripped of their human20500:14:03.370 --> 00:14:07.330rights and you see certain similarities where, you know, we used to humanizing20600:14:07.370 --> 00:14:13.960language to describe the victims. Andso the Jews during the Nazi Germany Reign,20700:14:13.000 --> 00:14:18.000they were referred to as subhuman orrenderment. Yeah, you had the20800:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.840words that people use to describe blackpeople in the United States that were meant20900:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.549to be subhuman and meant to bederogatory. And you know, nowadays we21000:14:24.629 --> 00:14:28.389refer to the baby as it's aclump of cells and, yeah, a21100:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.909product of conception, it's a parasite, it's not a person in the full21200:14:31.990 --> 00:14:37.029sense of the law. And withjust looking at the different definitions of genocide21300:14:37.029 --> 00:14:41.379and the mindset behind hind genocide,it's always about a group of people who21400:14:41.379 --> 00:14:45.860are in the protected class drawing acircle around themself and saying, okay,21500:14:45.860 --> 00:14:48.299if you're in this circle, youare human. This is what it means21600:14:48.340 --> 00:14:52.860to be a person with rights andrespected under the law, and it's the21700:14:52.889 --> 00:14:56.769people outside of that who either havesomething we want or they get in our21800:14:56.809 --> 00:15:01.129way or there's some reason why wewon't. We benefit from them not having21900:15:01.169 --> 00:15:05.730the same yes as us, andso we exclude them. And here with22000:15:05.850 --> 00:15:09.960abortion, we would say that thegroup being targeted is specifically unwanted and unborn22100:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.519children. Yeah, because you can'tkill a baby in the womb whose mother22200:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.039wants him, because you know,in most states you will be charged with22300:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.759a double homicide if you kill apregnant woman. Yeah, and then,22400:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.110of course, if the baby isunwanted but they're born, well, at22500:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.350that point the law protects them.We call that infanticide or, you know,22600:15:26.470 --> 00:15:31.149child abuse. But it's a specific, identifiable people group and it's it's22700:15:31.230 --> 00:15:35.620really designed to to prick the consciencein a way beyond even just the images22800:15:35.659 --> 00:15:41.940themselves, because with this specific displaywe parallel the images with images from the22900:15:43.179 --> 00:15:46.899Holocaust or from the Rwandan genocide orfrom the massacret wounded. Need just all23000:15:46.940 --> 00:15:52.970these different historical references and it's designsthat people see. Okay, you know,23100:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.490this is something that I look backa long time ago and we know23200:15:54.649 --> 00:15:58.529that was wrong. This wounded themassacre where all the native Americans were rounded23300:15:58.610 --> 00:16:03.360up and shot by the US cavalry, and we all recognize that as wrong.23400:16:03.480 --> 00:16:10.240But see, there's this mechanism thatwe have where we like to think23500:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.159that Oh, those people a longtime ago, are those people far away,23600:16:12.399 --> 00:16:17.600those people were backwards and wicked anddid something just in humane. But23700:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.190I'm not like that. We're verycivilized. We're very progressive, we're very23800:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.230pro equality of human rights. Wewould never, had we been there,23900:16:26.350 --> 00:16:27.750we would never. Oh, yes, we would have. We would have,24000:16:27.830 --> 00:16:32.070liked Jesus, would have stood againstit. That's right. Jesus condemnsed24100:16:32.110 --> 00:16:33.419people who said that same thing.Yeah, it's just that we think we24200:16:33.539 --> 00:16:37.899would have done better and yet statistically, most of US probably would not have,24300:16:38.299 --> 00:16:41.460and so it's more convicting even thanjust damages by themselves and that,24400:16:41.580 --> 00:16:45.379and so that's especially for a secularsociety. That's the thrust of our message,24500:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.690is that abortion is not only murder, but that abortion is genocide on24600:16:49.769 --> 00:16:53.690a large scale level. Yeah,you know, scripture says there's nothing new24700:16:53.730 --> 00:16:59.649under the Sun. Humanity, sincethe beginning, since there were people groups,24800:17:00.129 --> 00:17:03.359has had one people group against theother, oppressing, taken advantage of,24900:17:03.880 --> 00:17:08.559killing off of me. It's likeit's the human propensity to to take25000:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.359advantage of people when we're able to, and it's in it's evil when it25100:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.200like you said, that's got tobe confronted. I appreciate them. Yeah,25200:17:15.400 --> 00:17:19.190that you guys are doing that.What is the reception within the college25300:17:19.309 --> 00:17:23.990campus? What what are I don'tknow, maybe share some stories, if25400:17:25.029 --> 00:17:29.670you can, of some positive reception, negative reception and, like you said,25500:17:29.710 --> 00:17:32.740Lincoln, even before we started thisthing, it's all positive as far25600:17:32.779 --> 00:17:34.859as your con scerned because if they'reangry, at least they're hearing what you're25700:17:34.859 --> 00:17:38.140saying. But Jamana, share alittle bit about the reception in the college25800:17:38.180 --> 00:17:42.859campus, even in the Public Square, street corner, that sort of thing.25900:17:44.609 --> 00:17:48.849Sure. Yeah, so I thinkthat you know that the message hits26000:17:48.289 --> 00:17:52.009every individual at a different place,because every individual is at a different place,26100:17:52.089 --> 00:17:55.569but it meets them where they areand that's what we try to do,26200:17:55.809 --> 00:17:59.279you know, conversationally as well.But everyone's going to respond differently because26300:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.839they're a different place. So somepeople are really angry and some people are,26400:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.799yeah, upset, cuss us out, you know all kinds of things.26500:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.880Yeah, so we do get alot of that, but we also26600:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.319get a lot of positive reception.A lot of people thank you so much26700:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.470for you're doing. You know thisis so needed. And we get a26800:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.349lot of positives and then we geta lot of questions and a lot of26900:18:18.430 --> 00:18:22.069people who are just kind of goingabout their life and either they'll proach us27000:18:22.109 --> 00:18:23.670and ask US questions they've never heardthe answer to you know, they've heard27100:18:23.990 --> 00:18:27.660one side, they've heard what they'vebeen told by mainstream society and they've never27200:18:27.740 --> 00:18:32.740heard the the answers the opposite side, and so they never had that chance.27300:18:32.819 --> 00:18:33.740So then, you know, thankyou, thank you for answers are27400:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.460Oh, you know, I've reallyhad a good conversation. And and then,27500:18:37.019 --> 00:18:38.940you know, we go to that. You know, we approach people,27600:18:38.980 --> 00:18:41.329as you know, we ask them, you know, what do you27700:18:41.410 --> 00:18:45.529think and all, I don't know, it's not something I really thought about27800:18:45.569 --> 00:18:48.450much. Or Oh, I thinkit's fine because, you know, you27900:18:48.529 --> 00:18:49.690know a foe woman's raped or ifshe's really poor, and then we get28000:18:49.690 --> 00:18:52.970to have that discussion with them andwhat do you think? And then,28100:18:52.089 --> 00:18:56.039you know, we go through ourapologetics and to just really confront you know,28200:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.640is this really logical? It isthis really and you don't get them28300:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.119thinking. We really want them tothink. Yeah, because so you're not,28400:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.480like I said, kind of ingest, absolutely ingest. You're not there28500:19:07.480 --> 00:19:15.150just to make people angry, butyou're there to invoke conversations and thoughts and28600:19:15.829 --> 00:19:18.269maybe the perception is which is whyyou get some of the angry people coming28700:19:18.309 --> 00:19:21.829over and they're going to set youstraight is that you're just there to make28800:19:21.869 --> 00:19:26.740them angry, just there to offendthem, and when they come and approach28900:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.420you and they find that you're notlike what they thought you were, this29000:19:30.700 --> 00:19:36.140bravenoist, anti choice activist or whatever, you actually a loving person that wants29100:19:36.180 --> 00:19:38.170to answer their questions. What's thereception on that? And have you ever29200:19:38.210 --> 00:19:41.130had a situation where they're coming toset you straight and then, you know,29300:19:41.250 --> 00:19:45.450thirty minutes later they're like, thankyou, he had all the time,29400:19:45.769 --> 00:19:48.849all the time. And there's asense to in which like where I29500:19:48.930 --> 00:19:51.369would say, you know, alittle caveat, like in some ways,29600:19:51.410 --> 00:19:53.640maybe we are trying to make peopleangry in a sense, and what I29700:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.319would explain that as is that weknow we're going to get a reaction and29800:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.319we know that some people, alot of people are not going to agree29900:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.799with us. And almost everywhere wego we get protesters who set up and30000:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.950they'll have their signs that are,you know, usually handmade, or they'll30100:20:07.950 --> 00:20:10.509be out there trying to cover usup or, you know, trying to30200:20:10.549 --> 00:20:14.990engage on their side of the issueand people the target audience that we're trying30300:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.470to reach, that Joanna describe thosepeople in the middle. They come by30400:20:18.589 --> 00:20:22.059and they see the contrast. Yeah, they see the horrible pictures, they30500:20:22.059 --> 00:20:26.339see US responding to people gently,having civilized conversations, being challenging perhaps,30600:20:26.380 --> 00:20:32.059but at least not being derogatory ormean spirited. And then they go to30700:20:32.099 --> 00:20:33.900the other side they see them,you know, at in some cases they've30800:20:33.940 --> 00:20:37.930seen them vandalize our signs. Andso, you know, one person I30900:20:38.009 --> 00:20:41.849was talking to, he's pro apro choice young man at a college in31000:20:42.210 --> 00:20:47.690I want to say Florida, andsomeone came in just through some pain on31100:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.599our signs and ran off and thatreally touched him. He was like,31200:20:51.759 --> 00:20:53.599oh my goodness, like your positionmust be pretty poor if you feel like31300:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.720you have to do that to getit across rather than engage people. Yeah,31400:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.640we had a there was another schoolin Florida where this guy on a31500:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.160motorcycle, you know, with hisjacket, he comes by and he was31600:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.710just very he was not going tocommit to either side. He had his31700:21:07.789 --> 00:21:10.630notepad in his pin and he cameto us. He asked his hard questions31800:21:10.670 --> 00:21:12.589and he was sitting there writing ouranswers and he was just very engaged.31900:21:14.309 --> 00:21:15.950And then he went to the otherside. He said, okay, I32000:21:15.990 --> 00:21:18.619want to go hear what they haveto say, and he walks across the32100:21:18.740 --> 00:21:22.220protesters, spends a few minutes withthem doing the same thing. He comes32200:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.380back to us and he's frustrated.At that point he says, you know32300:21:25.460 --> 00:21:32.660what, you guys actually have articulatereasons and logical explanations for why you believe32400:21:32.740 --> 00:21:37.849what you believe, and all theother side has is catch phrases and slogans32500:21:37.890 --> 00:21:41.170and just things that they've repeated andparroted that don't actually have any substance to32600:21:41.289 --> 00:21:45.609them. Yeah, and so it'sreally creating a situation where people see the32700:21:45.730 --> 00:21:51.160other side trying to defend the indefensibleand they see the slogans and they see32800:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.079just the the vileness of that.Yeah, and hopefully see the contrast and32900:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.480it causes them, it forces thetime, I think, to one examine33000:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.829hey like not only the facts ofthe issue, which we certainly want them33100:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.869to but then also, you know, remembering the pictures and they're remembering the33200:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.710fact that they were treated with respect. And what did they see on the33300:22:07.789 --> 00:22:10.230other side? Yeah, and we'resewing seeds, you know, a a33400:22:10.269 --> 00:22:12.470lot of times it's not oh wow, I can't believe us so stupid.33500:22:12.509 --> 00:22:15.740I didn't know. You know,they don't. It's not an immediate conversion,33600:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.660but sometimes it is. But alot of times more often, you33700:22:18.740 --> 00:22:21.259know, we know any time whereany of us are confronted with someone says33800:22:21.259 --> 00:22:22.740something that's different what we already think, you know, we kind of argue33900:22:22.779 --> 00:22:25.940back a bit and you know,I think it because of this, is34000:22:25.980 --> 00:22:26.900what about this? You know thatthen you go home and think about and34100:22:26.940 --> 00:22:30.329that's what they do. You'll gohome and think about it and sometimes,34200:22:30.210 --> 00:22:33.089you know, years later, butyou know, you come back and tell34300:22:33.089 --> 00:22:36.210us, yeah, I didn't see, yeah, I was angry, and34400:22:36.289 --> 00:22:38.569change my mind. So you've gota let's say you've got a you got34500:22:38.650 --> 00:22:45.200the gap project set up and you'redisplaying these contrasts, or actually these comparisons34600:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.759between abortion and other genocize that havetaken place in human history, and a34700:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.319pro abortion person comes up and theyhave their sign that did just handcrafted from34800:22:55.319 --> 00:22:59.069a pizza box and they wanted toset you straight and they're blocking your signs34900:22:59.750 --> 00:23:02.390and they're trying to get people notto look at what you've got to say.35000:23:02.910 --> 00:23:07.269How do you deal with that person? So there is a verse,35100:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.230and I think it's proverbs two,five hundred and twenty six. That's,35200:23:10.829 --> 00:23:14.019I think, very needed in thechurch today, very needed among Christian circles35300:23:14.059 --> 00:23:15.779and people who do what we do, and you're probably already familiar with it,35400:23:15.900 --> 00:23:19.660but it says that, like amuddied spring or polluted well, is35500:23:19.700 --> 00:23:25.700a righteous man who gives way beforethe wicked. And so you know,35600:23:25.740 --> 00:23:27.289there's a sense we're willing to goout there and there is a context for35700:23:27.410 --> 00:23:30.769turning the other cheek. Yeah,but when we're out here standing not for35800:23:30.849 --> 00:23:34.930ourselves but for the victims, andwe're out there showing pictures to tell their35900:23:36.049 --> 00:23:40.569story and to stand for their wellbeing on their behalf, we will we36000:23:40.650 --> 00:23:45.720will not tolerate people coming out thereand trying to to block that or to36100:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.440censor that, because they have alegal right to free speech. And so36200:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.039we don't. We don't tear theirsigns out of their hands, we don't36300:23:52.039 --> 00:23:53.680try to block them, we don'ttry to mess with their ability to get36400:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.829their message across and we expect tobe treated the same way. And so36500:23:57.150 --> 00:24:02.109if people come and they try toblock things or vandalize or do something like36600:24:02.150 --> 00:24:03.990that, that's illegal. You know, we will call the police or we36700:24:04.150 --> 00:24:07.190will, you know, ask themto move and we will even take legal36800:24:07.230 --> 00:24:11.539measures, because that does come tothe point where, okay, we're not36900:24:11.619 --> 00:24:14.460going to be you know, beingbeing a Christian doesn't mean that we have37000:24:14.539 --> 00:24:17.819to be pushovers. Yeah, andwe're standing for something that is righteous like37100:24:17.980 --> 00:24:21.099this, we won't be pushovers.Yeah, yeah, we've had situation just37200:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.970from personal experience, at the abortioncenters. We've had pro abortion people.37300:24:25.089 --> 00:24:27.769Had one point, a pro abortionlady tried to go on to the mobile37400:24:27.769 --> 00:24:32.849ultrasound unit and get a a momoff of there because we had had her37500:24:32.890 --> 00:24:34.410on there too long and she wantedto go inside and get her half on37600:24:34.450 --> 00:24:37.970a likeness. What in the world. So I call the police on her37700:24:37.130 --> 00:24:41.519rather than, you know, inthis kind of twisted version of turn the37800:24:41.559 --> 00:24:42.960other cheek. Obviously, I stoodmy ground and stood in front of the37900:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.640door with letter. That's just myexperience. It's a little bit of what38000:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.039you're talking about. Share it realquick, Joanna, if you can.38100:24:49.519 --> 00:24:55.470A story of a person and whohad changed their mind about abortion is for38200:24:55.589 --> 00:24:57.269us, the the reality of itand that sort of thing. Yeah,38300:24:57.309 --> 00:25:02.109there's so many. Also amazing whathappens. I'm amazed when we go out38400:25:02.230 --> 00:25:03.390there, just like you're saying earlier, I got me to you and you38500:25:03.430 --> 00:25:07.220know, just gives you opportunities.You will save lives and change minds.38600:25:07.220 --> 00:25:11.140And sometimes it's not immediate or everyconversation, but there's so many, so38700:25:11.259 --> 00:25:14.660many opportunities to share the gospel.But there's just all kinds of funny situations.38800:25:14.700 --> 00:25:15.740I'll share one. Okay, funnyone stands out in my mind.38900:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.490There's this guy who's just been,you know, standing there for you know,39000:25:21.730 --> 00:25:23.809meant twenty minutes, maybe thirty,just, you know, just going39100:25:23.809 --> 00:25:27.410around in circles basically, and youknow, we're trying to share everything we39200:25:27.529 --> 00:25:32.329can and, you know, withhim and and he's just not having he39300:25:32.369 --> 00:25:33.730says, you know, you you'rejust trying to hurt women, you're just39400:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.640making them feel like they're not seas. You know, you're well comparing this39500:25:37.720 --> 00:25:40.440the Holocaust and you're just, youknow, trying to feed up women,39600:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.599basically. And we're trying to tellhim that's all we're doing and explain to39700:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.640him, but he just won't hearany of it. So then here walks39800:25:45.680 --> 00:25:51.309along this young woman who doesn't lookthe difficult part of a pro life or39900:25:51.349 --> 00:25:55.190definitely not just coming here smoking,you know, and it's just real LAXA40000:25:55.190 --> 00:25:59.710daisically and she's standing there and justlistens for a few minutes. I've no40100:25:59.710 --> 00:26:02.109idea what she's gonna say, andthen after a few minutes, she says,40200:26:02.589 --> 00:26:07.779you know, I'm a woman andI don't feel like they're trying to40300:26:07.819 --> 00:26:08.859tell me a not see like now. I'm not say. I feel like40400:26:10.019 --> 00:26:11.660they're just really trying to say thatabortion is wrong. And she says and40500:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.180I've had an abortion and I don'tfeel like they're condemning me. I feel40600:26:15.220 --> 00:26:19.210like they're just trying to show whatit is and many's validation. That's no40700:26:19.369 --> 00:26:22.970words, like, you know,for out of the words of its money,40800:26:22.970 --> 00:26:26.329when God just brings us situations likethat, I could school are more40900:26:26.329 --> 00:26:29.529all the time. But yeah,it's amazing. Have you, Lincoln,41000:26:29.609 --> 00:26:34.319share a story of a situation whereyou've had to stay in your ground and41100:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.519maybe you had to get the lawinvolved so that people understand, like what41200:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.319you guys are dealing with? It'snot that you're just there again to make41300:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.119people ain't you going to spur conversationsand you're there in a very nice and41400:26:45.400 --> 00:26:51.349approachable demeanor, but I'm sure you'vebeen, maybe not physically attack maybe,41500:26:51.430 --> 00:26:53.150I don't know. We've we wesee, we've seen just about it.41600:26:53.309 --> 00:26:56.750Well, I don't want to sayeverything because something will always play out that41700:26:56.869 --> 00:27:00.750surprises you. And Yeah, wehad a situation where we were at a41800:27:00.869 --> 00:27:06.779very liberal campus in here in NorthCarolina and and this kind of goes along41900:27:06.779 --> 00:27:10.420to with the theme of just,I guess, the ants that we feel42000:27:10.539 --> 00:27:15.460where the news media is not fairto our cause and will often misconstrue things42100:27:15.500 --> 00:27:18.170or paint things a certain way thatthose who observe the events did not observe.42200:27:18.809 --> 00:27:22.369And we're at this campus and wehad a group of people that were42300:27:22.849 --> 00:27:26.769kind of the ANTIFA types where theywere just very in your face, they42400:27:26.809 --> 00:27:30.680were very brash. There were aboutthree or four them in particular that would42500:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.240just follow our people around and justkind of make jeering comments at them or42600:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.519like make demeaning comments on our evenour physical appearance, or just things that42700:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.240were very personal where you could tellthey were trying to get under our sore.42800:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.750Non Scientific argument, not at all. They did not want to talk,42900:27:44.789 --> 00:27:47.470they did not want to engage,they just wanted to intimidate. And43000:27:47.589 --> 00:27:51.509we had this one young woman whowas a black young woman and she was43100:27:51.589 --> 00:27:55.390a specially antagonistic like to me fora while where she was just getting in43200:27:55.430 --> 00:27:59.420my face and and doing all thesethings to try to intimidate, and then43300:27:59.460 --> 00:28:00.819she would she would beat on oneperson, then she would go to the43400:28:00.859 --> 00:28:06.740next person and just be saying thingsthat were silly or derogatory or unkind as43500:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.500she would just be following people around. Well, at one point she ended43600:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.490up grabbing a piece of paper thathas some sensitive information on it from one43700:28:15.490 --> 00:28:18.970of our volunteers and she refused togive it back. She just took it43800:28:18.130 --> 00:28:22.650just brazenly, as if she thoughtshe could get away with it and that43900:28:22.690 --> 00:28:23.849we weren't we were just going toKeel over and let her do that.44000:28:25.529 --> 00:28:27.880And so I think it was,I guess it was me. I probably44100:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.279called the police honor and told themthat, you know, this was going44200:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.720on. Yeah, and the officerscame over there and, a long story44300:28:34.799 --> 00:28:38.119short, she at first denied thatshe had done it and then she tried44400:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.710to hand the piece of paper offto want of her cohorts and you know,44500:28:41.789 --> 00:28:47.269obviously that was kind of literally gettingcaught randhanded here and so the the44600:28:47.390 --> 00:28:49.390officers, they had her turn around, they arrested her, I think,44700:28:49.390 --> 00:28:55.779for Larceny. And just little littleside detail the story, like the officer44800:28:55.900 --> 00:28:57.940that arrested her was a black femaleofficer, yeah, as well, who44900:28:57.940 --> 00:29:02.859put the handcuffs on her wrists andthey took her away and I think she45000:29:03.420 --> 00:29:04.619spent just a little bit of time, you know, and detention there for45100:29:04.740 --> 00:29:08.700that. But later on, whenthe news article came out about it,45200:29:08.779 --> 00:29:14.609it was kind of portraying it.As you know, black woman gets arrested.45300:29:15.009 --> 00:29:17.250You know, become was of prolife people. It was something to45400:29:17.289 --> 00:29:19.369the effect that, oh, thisPORP and they were quoting her something.45500:29:19.450 --> 00:29:23.009She get tweeted about how her riskhurt and how she had been detained against45600:29:23.009 --> 00:29:26.359her will for all these hours andand the whole you're reading this whole story45700:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.359thinking, Oh, she's the victimand she's this poor innocent black woman who's45800:29:30.400 --> 00:29:36.319been treated unfairly. And I meanwe it was just bizarre and ironic because45900:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.910it became something where it wasn't aboutthe facts and it wasn't about what the46000:29:40.990 --> 00:29:45.190people around observed. It was aboutcreating her to be the victim, even46100:29:45.190 --> 00:29:48.670though she was the one and like, very actively and aggressively harassing all of46200:29:48.789 --> 00:29:52.339us, including volunteers on our staffwho are also black, like she was46300:29:52.420 --> 00:29:56.140just harassing everybody. But the newsdidn't cover that, they didn't say that,46400:29:56.299 --> 00:29:59.660and so that's just one of manyinstance is where we've had to stand46500:29:59.700 --> 00:30:02.900our ground and and part of itis showing them that we will not be46600:30:02.980 --> 00:30:04.460bullied. Like we're out there.We want to be kind, we want46700:30:04.460 --> 00:30:07.769to be civil, we want youto have your rights to free speech.46800:30:07.769 --> 00:30:11.890We've believed in the value and dignityof every human being, regardless of their46900:30:11.930 --> 00:30:15.849race and, obviously, their levelof development, but that doesn't mean will47000:30:15.930 --> 00:30:18.450allow someone to bully us or thinkthat they can just do that kind of47100:30:18.490 --> 00:30:21.960thing and get away, because itsends a message that, oh, Christians47200:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.160and pro life people are weak andif you just intimidate them and harass them47300:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.359enough, they'll either capitulate or they'lljust go yeah, well, like what47400:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.559you said when you said it's notreally about us, it's not about US47500:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.509standing our ground for our sake.Yeah, but it's these babies. You47600:30:37.630 --> 00:30:41.950know, I believe, and youprobably have stories to share, maybe even47700:30:41.990 --> 00:30:45.430as many stories as you have toyear of people being angry and people you47800:30:45.549 --> 00:30:48.670know, and all of that ofmoms that have even chosen life based on47900:30:48.029 --> 00:30:51.299what you guys are doing. Imean, in one sense, you guys48000:30:51.339 --> 00:30:55.460are getting them and planting those seedsof truth about abortion before they get to48100:30:55.539 --> 00:30:57.460us, to the abortion center.So I know God uses you guys in48200:30:57.539 --> 00:31:00.980that way. It's not surprising,they lincoln that the news media wasn't on48300:31:02.099 --> 00:31:06.369your side and wasn't, you know, speaking positively about and and that's constantly48400:31:06.410 --> 00:31:08.410why we insist have to go aroundthem and that's why we go to the48500:31:08.450 --> 00:31:11.849streets, to busy intersections, tocollege campuses, two places where we can48600:31:12.250 --> 00:31:15.410interact and and that's really part ofthe beauty of the pictures to is that,48700:31:15.529 --> 00:31:18.400you know, we've talked about andwe love the stories about the conversations,48800:31:19.079 --> 00:31:23.359but you know, for every tenminute, thirty minute conversation I have48900:31:23.480 --> 00:31:26.880with an individual, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people walking49000:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.400by that I'm only one person andwe only have so many people on our49100:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.190team and we can't directly engage eachof them. But at the very least49200:31:34.190 --> 00:31:37.990they took a few seconds. Theylooked over to see what the commotion was49300:31:37.069 --> 00:31:41.349about, and they have been reachedin a way that is powerful and perhaps49400:31:41.349 --> 00:31:45.109even more powerful sometimes than even ourwords. Yeah, yeah, well,49500:31:45.190 --> 00:31:47.460I know. One of the things, it's kind that I wanted to get49600:31:47.539 --> 00:31:51.259to and want you guys to talkabout is some of the receptivity. It's49700:31:51.339 --> 00:31:55.180no surprise again, that pro abortionpeople, especially those who in majority,49800:31:55.220 --> 00:31:57.099I would say, on the collegecampus, would probably identify maybe as pro49900:31:57.180 --> 00:32:00.140choice. where. I could bewrong about that, I guess, depending50000:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.730on the campus. Either way,it's no surprise you'd be rejected there.50100:32:04.250 --> 00:32:07.130Of course, the media and rejectionthat's there. But what about with then50200:32:07.930 --> 00:32:13.410the church? What about those whoare on the college campus who claim to50300:32:13.490 --> 00:32:17.319be Christians? What's your receptivity there? I know it's mixed, but is50400:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.400there a negative reaction and if so, how do you respond to that?50500:32:22.480 --> 00:32:29.200Yeah, that's a big and reallyimportant question and I think it's similar,50600:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.950I would say, in terms ofthe receptivity. As far as you know,50700:32:31.190 --> 00:32:35.589are we wanted or allowed to comein? And that's a No.50800:32:35.950 --> 00:32:37.549I mean, yeah, what wewould need to write if this was being50900:32:37.589 --> 00:32:42.269taught in churches, schools, homes, you know, but so many people51000:32:42.750 --> 00:32:45.180don't even know we had a kidlast year at our youth camp who's in51100:32:45.220 --> 00:32:49.380middle school and he was a youknow, obviously sent there by a Christian51200:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.500family, pro life family, andhe was leaning pro choice. And he51300:32:52.579 --> 00:32:53.539says this and he says but afterthis, no way, you know,51400:32:53.740 --> 00:32:57.859but he's never been taught. Andso people anyway, there's a lot there.51500:32:57.940 --> 00:33:02.289But there's I think the establishment ofjust kind of the business of the51600:33:02.410 --> 00:33:06.450church can kind of in the statusquote, can sometimes take precedence over.51700:33:06.890 --> 00:33:09.170Okay, what's actually important, andwe just this is always what we've business51800:33:09.170 --> 00:33:13.160as usual, what we've done,and so something to come in and disrupt51900:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.039that and we're not sure and thisis controversial and we're going to alienate people52000:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.920and maybe this isn't even, youknow, about the Gospel. So maybe52100:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.440we should just kind of avoid itand not talk about it. And then52200:33:22.480 --> 00:33:28.869so when when we do or wetry to meet with pastors or it's a52300:33:28.910 --> 00:33:30.990lot of times called shoulder or,you know, universities. They don't want52400:33:31.029 --> 00:33:34.269us, but but it's amazing.So then when you do kind of go52500:33:34.390 --> 00:33:37.789around that leadership, if they don'twant to talk to us, then the52600:33:37.269 --> 00:33:42.819students. You know, we've beento a seminary recently and and they're,52700:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.339you know, I'm sure, teachinga lot of great things, but we're52800:33:45.339 --> 00:33:47.059not welcome. And so, butthen the students, you know, I52900:33:47.099 --> 00:33:52.859have this conversation with one of thestudents here comes by and he's wrestling with53000:33:52.539 --> 00:33:55.329even just what he's supposed to doas a he used to be as he53100:33:55.369 --> 00:33:59.369said, he used to do streetpreaching out with and he's an NC state53200:34:00.890 --> 00:34:05.650and you know, he's asking meall these questions that I'm confounded that I53300:34:05.690 --> 00:34:07.130am having answer for him. I'mso grateful for the opportunity, but literally,53400:34:07.170 --> 00:34:08.769he is, you know, anddon't go to heaven any way.53500:34:08.769 --> 00:34:13.119And is it something we really shouldstand up about and people just need to53600:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.880hear the Gospel. And this isso, I think, just evident in53700:34:16.360 --> 00:34:21.199of what of what the situation isand what people are they're not being taught53800:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.909to deal with the actual issues oftoday's society and culture. And you know,53900:34:24.110 --> 00:34:25.989and he says, you know,by the end a conversation I feel54000:34:25.989 --> 00:34:28.510like God is, you know,using you to speak to me, like54100:34:28.590 --> 00:34:30.949I need to stand up and Ineed to see up against he's like admitting,54200:34:30.989 --> 00:34:32.989like I'm afraid to confront anything inour culture, even like ever say54300:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.949that homosexuality is wrong or anything likeabortions a guide. I do need to54400:34:36.989 --> 00:34:38.619see end up. And you know, there was another woman that same place54500:34:38.699 --> 00:34:42.340who came by and she said shewas angry at first. She said,54600:34:42.380 --> 00:34:44.619I know they warned us, youwere they're going to be pictures here.54700:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.460But I she's I I'm a Christian, but you know, I've had an54800:34:46.460 --> 00:34:50.739abortion and this is offensive to meand this is hurtful, and I just54900:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.449calmly, gently explain to her likeI'm so sorry that you know whenever you55000:34:53.489 --> 00:34:58.250went through and but you know,obviously you you know. She said she55100:34:58.369 --> 00:35:00.329regretted it, but I said,obviously you reat that. Do you really55200:35:00.610 --> 00:35:02.969not want other people have the chanceto not have to go through that and55300:35:04.090 --> 00:35:06.369just to be able to see thetruth? You know? And and one55400:35:06.369 --> 00:35:09.119of ourvolunteers asked her and would youhave gone through, would you have gotten55500:35:09.119 --> 00:35:13.239an abortion if you had seen thesepictures? And she said probably not.55600:35:13.880 --> 00:35:15.920And so no one had ever toldher and you know. And so I55700:35:16.039 --> 00:35:17.840was able to offer her, Iwas able to pray with her. Jell55800:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.440me pray for her. I said, how do you ever feel like you've55900:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.510gotten healing and, you know,forgiveness for what you what how we did56000:35:23.630 --> 00:35:27.909and what happened, and she saidno, it's never been address. I56100:35:27.909 --> 00:35:29.710said, well, you know they'rethere are resources. You know, when56200:35:29.710 --> 00:35:31.429I gave her the post abortion healingInfo and she said can I have another56300:35:31.469 --> 00:35:34.429one? I have a friend whohad just got an abortion. I'm like56400:35:34.670 --> 00:35:36.860yeah, of course. So it'sjust yeah, it's just sad to me,56500:35:36.940 --> 00:35:38.820I guess, when the stuff isnot being addressed, and I could56600:35:38.820 --> 00:35:43.699tell you story after story of thingsthat I'm shocked by that just this is56700:35:43.780 --> 00:35:47.179not dealt with in the church.Yeah, and there's this this mindset that56800:35:47.420 --> 00:35:52.570we encounter so much among even likejust very evangelical circles that doctrinally and otherwise56900:35:52.570 --> 00:35:57.769I would typically associate with, wherewe kind of think that, you know,57000:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.570obviously we recognize that we want tochange people's heart through the Gospel and57100:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.679not just change their external behavior,and so, you know, I get57200:36:04.679 --> 00:36:08.320that and I sympathize with that,but we kind of create, you know,57300:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.440as a maybe a faulty outflow ofthat is that, okay, we57400:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.400don't need to actually be concerned aboutjustice, we don't need to be concerned57500:36:16.440 --> 00:36:21.190about matters of physical life and death, because we just need to preach the57600:36:21.269 --> 00:36:23.789Gospel to people. We just needto only share that and not really worry57700:36:23.829 --> 00:36:27.630about you know, because we thinkthat abortion will kind of take care of57800:36:27.670 --> 00:36:30.989itself or racism will take care ofitself if we're just doing evangelization. And57900:36:31.389 --> 00:36:36.139I think that's faulty on two fronts. One, you know, just biblically,58000:36:36.260 --> 00:36:37.900you look at the fact that Goddoes care about justice, that God58100:36:38.019 --> 00:36:43.059does care about how we treat ourneighbor in terms of their actual physical needs58200:36:43.099 --> 00:36:46.849as well as their eternal need forsalvation. The parable of the Good Samaritan58300:36:46.889 --> 00:36:52.889and Luke Ten I. It's reallyrevealing that Jesus uses that as a example58400:36:52.050 --> 00:36:55.969for the fulfilling the greatest command tolove your neighbor as yourself. Yeah,58500:36:57.010 --> 00:37:00.250the second commandment. And you know, you look at that parable and it's58600:37:00.289 --> 00:37:07.599almost telling that the person that Jesusholds up as the hero didn't, at58700:37:07.639 --> 00:37:08.920least in the story. There wasn'tany sense of like, you know,58800:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.159giving here's the the center's prayer,Here's, you know, how to have58900:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.230peace with God and here's how youcan, you know, go to here's59000:37:15.230 --> 00:37:17.750a church you can go to.Know, he saw that there was a59100:37:17.829 --> 00:37:22.710physical, tangible need that his neighborhad that was literally a life and death59200:37:22.829 --> 00:37:25.670need and he stepped in and intervenedand ministered to that need, and Jesus59300:37:25.710 --> 00:37:29.909holds that up as the example.Yeah, and so then historically you see59400:37:29.949 --> 00:37:34.340people like a missionary, so manypeople. You See Amy Carmichael, Alice,59500:37:34.340 --> 00:37:37.099see Lee Harris, who's one notas well known. She was a59600:37:37.139 --> 00:37:42.260missionary to the Congo and the urbannineteen hundreds, sent from from Britain and59700:37:43.179 --> 00:37:46.170when she got down there she's doingher evangelization, but she also becomes aware59800:37:46.210 --> 00:37:53.889of a situation where the Belgian basicallythe Belgian king, has people who are59900:37:54.570 --> 00:38:01.039subjugating the local population to essentially beforced labor for rubber production, because rubber60000:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.920at that time was a very importantcommodity in the world. And they are60100:38:06.000 --> 00:38:12.239literally threatening these people with death,with like maiming them and like actually dismembering60200:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.829hands and arms and feet. Andshe goes on this campaign to show the60300:38:15.909 --> 00:38:21.750pictures. She took a lot ofpictures documenting the injustices against the Congolesee.60400:38:21.949 --> 00:38:25.550Yeah, and through that was ableto eventually put international pressure on the king60500:38:25.590 --> 00:38:30.420of Belgium to treat the people humanelyand to no longer force them into that.60600:38:31.059 --> 00:38:35.219But she did that as an outgrowthof her walk of faith as a60700:38:35.380 --> 00:38:37.539Christian minister and it wasn't something whereshe just said, Oh, let's just60800:38:37.619 --> 00:38:42.489preach the Gospel and just kind ofallow that to you know, people will60900:38:42.530 --> 00:38:45.449kind of put the puzzle together ontheir own. Yeah, she went directly61000:38:45.489 --> 00:38:49.329and said no, these are literalpeople who are dying and suffering and as61100:38:49.369 --> 00:38:52.769a Christian I should be on theforefront of the fight to in this injustice61200:38:52.809 --> 00:38:57.000and not just leave that, youknow, passively, to someone else.61300:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.119Absolutely it's a good example. Imean, you know I've had conversation,61400:39:00.159 --> 00:39:02.280I'm sure you guys have to,of pro choice, pro abortion, people61500:39:02.840 --> 00:39:07.840who kind of want to equate uswith like the Christ I've been called the61600:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.750Christian teliband before. You Christians,you know you're nothing but the problem.61700:39:12.110 --> 00:39:15.789But Will you start to recount humanhistory and you look at injustice? As61800:39:15.829 --> 00:39:20.469you know, Chinese footbinding comes tomind, where they would bind up little61900:39:20.550 --> 00:39:22.590girl's feet so they would stay smallbecause that was attractive to the men.62000:39:23.190 --> 00:39:29.940It was Christians that got that injustice. That's right removed from that society,62100:39:30.739 --> 00:39:35.260even if I forget what it's called, but it's in India where if a62200:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.329guy, a man, husband wasto die, his wife would actually be62300:39:38.369 --> 00:39:44.010burned alive with him. That wasa practice in India and Christians got that.62400:39:44.130 --> 00:39:46.650So that's you bring that up.Is just another example. And certainly62500:39:46.730 --> 00:39:52.809as Christians we have our flaws andthe Lord is sanctifying and making us more62600:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.880like Jesus every day and then.But it is Christians who do and who62700:39:55.920 --> 00:40:00.960are called to confront evil. Andyou know, as far as this in62800:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.920the last few minutes that we have, as far as appealing to Christians who62900:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.510might say something to the effect ofyet understand what you're doing, and I63000:40:08.630 --> 00:40:13.070see you know, people have beenthe minds have been changed, the Gospel63100:40:13.110 --> 00:40:15.670has been shared, babies even beensaved, but still yet. I don't63200:40:15.670 --> 00:40:20.630think it's appropriate to show people victimimages. What would you say to that63300:40:20.789 --> 00:40:24.179person who is open, who is, you know, like they're pushing back63400:40:24.179 --> 00:40:28.699because they feel like you're being judgmentaland you're being whatever, but they're willing63500:40:28.739 --> 00:40:30.460to hear. What would you sayto that person? I would say I63600:40:30.539 --> 00:40:37.769would just lovingly and as a brotherchallenge their question in a sense, and63700:40:37.849 --> 00:40:43.369just ask why wouldn't you want toshow the victims? Because you know,63800:40:43.489 --> 00:40:46.210we know abortions wrong and we know, you know, hopefully for a lot63900:40:46.250 --> 00:40:50.760of our friends listen to this podcast, that this is something that's happening,64000:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.199that this these are real people thatare being killed every day. And you64100:40:54.320 --> 00:40:58.039know, by God's grace, youknow, and only by his race,64200:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.880we are in the state of mindto where we've been regenerated, were open64300:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.389to the truth. We're seeking thatand we're sensitive to it. But for64400:41:05.510 --> 00:41:08.469people who do not, are notthere yet, there needs to be that64500:41:08.590 --> 00:41:13.389hard dose of reality and it reallydoes take seeing. You know, we're64600:41:13.429 --> 00:41:16.469told in the FESIANS, I thinkit's eleven, to have no part in64700:41:16.510 --> 00:41:22.099the unfruitful work of artness, butinstead to expose them. Yeah, and64800:41:22.300 --> 00:41:25.179that is our calling as Christians.And you know, you can look biblically64900:41:25.219 --> 00:41:29.980at how you know even the crucifixionwe were talking about before the podcast,65000:41:30.139 --> 00:41:35.090that that was apart from the man, the side of man's involvement, and65100:41:35.250 --> 00:41:39.050it from God's perspective. This wasordained by him and it was a it65200:41:39.170 --> 00:41:45.250was a bloody public spectacle, itwas something that visually showed in a very65300:41:45.329 --> 00:41:50.440public way that this is the horrorof your sin, this is the ugliness65400:41:50.480 --> 00:41:52.280of your sin, but then alsothis is the love of God, this65500:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.000is how much he was willing tosacrifice and go through on behalf to reconcile65600:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.800you to him. Yeah, andso that's important, I think. And65700:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.349then just also historically, you lookat a lot of people you know who65800:42:04.389 --> 00:42:07.630probably listen here maybe watch the filmamazing grace. They're familiar with William Wilberforce,65900:42:07.710 --> 00:42:14.630Thomas Clarkston. You look at theending of segregation and just how the66000:42:14.789 --> 00:42:20.179marches that Dr King used were designedto make people uncomfortable with racism and force66100:42:20.260 --> 00:42:24.300them to see peaceful protesters who werebeing attacked, you know, by police66200:42:24.340 --> 00:42:28.260when they were not rioting, theywere not looting, they were just trying66300:42:28.300 --> 00:42:31.050to march and draw attention to howthey were being treated unfairly. And so66400:42:31.090 --> 00:42:36.210I would just challenge anyone who isn'tsure about this look at history, look66500:42:36.210 --> 00:42:38.170at the Bible, look at thefact that, yes, this is uncomfortable66600:42:38.210 --> 00:42:42.449and I will freely admit that tosome degree you go out there and it66700:42:42.530 --> 00:42:45.519never quite feels like, oh,this is easy this is something that I66800:42:45.639 --> 00:42:47.920enjoy doing. I love showing abortionphotos to people. It's like, no,66900:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.679I don't. But the victims ultimatelyhave no voice. They are completely67000:42:53.800 --> 00:43:00.190dependent upon someone who is not themselvesin danger caring enough to step up as67100:43:00.230 --> 00:43:02.710if it was their own life andto speak out and to be a voice67200:43:02.869 --> 00:43:07.710on their behalf. And so ifthere's a better method than showing the victim67300:43:07.710 --> 00:43:09.510images, I am all for itand I will put my signs down and67400:43:09.670 --> 00:43:14.059Jump On that bandwagon in a heartbeat. But yeah, I think it would67500:43:14.059 --> 00:43:20.659be intellectually and spiritually very challenging toto come up with the case that the67600:43:20.699 --> 00:43:23.659victim images are not effective, evenif they are something that causes people to67700:43:23.699 --> 00:43:28.449be hangry. Yeah, yeah,a lot of our gage as American Christians67800:43:28.690 --> 00:43:31.690is what something makes me feel like, what I think, what I feel,67900:43:32.329 --> 00:43:37.650and it's just not that's the thewhole point of this podcast, not68000:43:37.849 --> 00:43:40.840just this episode, but the thingfrom from beginning to end, is that68100:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.400we can't base what we do asprolifers on how we feel and what society68200:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.719says. It has to be foundedin the word of God. When we68300:43:50.880 --> 00:43:57.030look at particular behavior ministry, callingmethodology, it should always be. What68400:43:57.269 --> 00:44:00.510does the Bible say? What doesthe Scripture say? And you know,68500:44:00.550 --> 00:44:04.110I've had people try to argue aboutand then we use as sub what counsels?68600:44:04.150 --> 00:44:07.750We use victim images, we usethem in our brochures and we use68700:44:07.789 --> 00:44:09.579them if we display them. Wedon't always, but when we do we68800:44:09.739 --> 00:44:14.380display them away from the areas ofengagement with the mom who's abortion minded,68900:44:14.619 --> 00:44:16.739because it just tends to be moreof a cordial conversation, or at least69000:44:16.739 --> 00:44:21.659more of an engaging conversation. ButI do see them to be effective.69100:44:21.659 --> 00:44:23.369When I had I've had Christians tellme, and even they are affective,69200:44:23.369 --> 00:44:27.050we shouldn't use them because they're offensive, and I'm like, well, chapter69300:44:27.170 --> 00:44:30.690in verse, because the Bible tellsme that God is certainly into displaying victim69400:44:30.730 --> 00:44:35.329images. Jesus Christ is the ultimateexample. We see that through the the69500:44:35.530 --> 00:44:38.920New Testament of the Old Testament,how God shows images. We are visual69600:44:39.079 --> 00:44:44.480creatures and God, God, capitalizeson that, so to speak, to69700:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.039bring certain realities to our attention.So I appreciate what you guys are doing.69800:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.480Appreciate you guys being out there.It's uncomfortable, I know, and69900:44:52.949 --> 00:44:55.030you know what's kind of like whatJesus called us to, though. What70000:44:55.110 --> 00:44:59.230did he say? Take up yourcouch and lay on it with me,70100:45:00.550 --> 00:45:02.389he says. Take up your crossand follow me. It's a cross to70200:45:02.469 --> 00:45:06.389bear going out to these college campuses. It's across to bear. You know,70300:45:06.590 --> 00:45:08.500it is the same with what youdo and just how you know you're70400:45:08.539 --> 00:45:12.860out there ministering on the front linesand it's not comfortable and there's that happiness70500:45:12.900 --> 00:45:15.059of knowing that the woman going inlike at you know, it's what we70600:45:15.099 --> 00:45:17.099do. At least we can plana seed a lot of the time,70700:45:17.179 --> 00:45:21.019and we do and we see livessay from that. But I know there's,70800:45:21.179 --> 00:45:23.289you know, certain heaviness when youknow that this is the final chance70900:45:23.369 --> 00:45:27.809for that baby. So I commendyou guys for what you're doing and appreciate71000:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.289your your similar mindset because, youknow, you know with the whole thing71100:45:30.289 --> 00:45:35.369about it being offensive and how Christianskind of don't have a category in their71200:45:35.409 --> 00:45:37.480mind for things that might be offensive. But maybe that's good, you know.71300:45:37.559 --> 00:45:42.480You look. You mentioned the gospelsand how Jesus himself was very offensive71400:45:42.559 --> 00:45:47.039to some people and he knew howto handle being graceful with being truthful and71500:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.949sometimes he had to call things outfirmly as they were. And you know,71600:45:52.070 --> 00:45:54.510it was him who who said ofour walk as his followers that a71700:45:55.070 --> 00:45:59.230servant is not greater than his master. If they hate me, they will71800:45:59.269 --> 00:46:01.150hate you also. If they persecutedme, they will prosecute you also,71900:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.019and we just have to have acategory for that that, even in the72000:46:05.059 --> 00:46:07.420United States, with all of ourfreedom and all of our prosperity, that72100:46:08.179 --> 00:46:12.860we are called to suffer like themaster at times, and if persecutions what72200:46:12.980 --> 00:46:15.340it is, then that's our roadand we have to accept it because that's72300:46:15.340 --> 00:46:20.329the road he went on before us. Yeah, that's good. Well,72400:46:20.369 --> 00:46:22.610guys, I'm going to wrap thisthing up, but I do appreciate you72500:46:22.769 --> 00:46:27.489guys coming and sharing. Appreciate yourheart to serve, appreciate, you know72600:46:28.130 --> 00:46:30.570the get, the fact that youguys are sharing the Gospel and what you're72700:46:30.610 --> 00:46:37.480doing, but also confronting this eviland just keep doing it, keep serving72800:46:37.519 --> 00:46:43.400the Lord and absolutely friend. Heuse exposing evil and by God's grace and72900:46:43.559 --> 00:46:45.239we'll see abortion come to an endin our nation. I hope so,73000:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.590and if it doesn't happen, itwon't be because we didn't do it.73100:46:47.630 --> 00:46:52.230Dares. Yeah, yeah, Amen, you've got the good work. Thank73200:46:52.269 --> 00:46:54.469you. Yes, I God's grace. Yeah, yeah, well, I73300:46:54.510 --> 00:47:00.150appreciate you guys who've tuned into thispodcast and just hope that you guys will73400:47:00.150 --> 00:47:02.139share this podcast with others. Ifyou want to get in touch with these73500:47:02.179 --> 00:47:07.659guys, it is. What's thewhims? Go to abortion no dot Org.73600:47:07.820 --> 00:47:09.980Okays, our website and, asyou could probably expect, it does73700:47:10.059 --> 00:47:15.219have some graphic content on there that'snevertheless challenging and needed, but you can73800:47:15.260 --> 00:47:17.409go there and you can touch withus. Okay. So abortion no dot73900:47:17.409 --> 00:47:21.409Org can in touch with these guysand if you want to get in touch74000:47:21.449 --> 00:47:24.170with me, you can email meat d parks, at cities for lifecom.74100:47:24.409 --> 00:47:28.210You can go on our website,CHARLOTTE DOT cities for Life Dot Org.74200:47:28.929 --> 00:47:40.440And until next time, God blessgive for love, give me our74300:47:40.800 --> 00:47:52.829loft for gratitude. I know itwill cost me my life. Nothing's too74400:47:53.070 --> 00:47:55.309precious. And some you