Ministering to Post-abortive Men and Women

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord, I am yours. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. This episode we're going to speak with a friend of mine, Pastor Brian Audinger, of convergence church, about how to reach post aboard of men and women with the Gospel. Stay tuned, Lord, I felt show passis touch your heart. All right, we welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. I appreciate all those who join us today. I have with me a friend of mine, Pastor Brian Ottinger. He's a pastor of convergence church and he has a real heart to Minister The Gospel, of course, to anybody, anybody that that's breathing. He's willing to Minister Gospel to him but also to reach post aboard of men and women. So we're going to talk a little bit about that. We're going to talk a little bit about his testimony. So introduce yourself and kind of introduce some of your heart, Pastor Brian. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. Encouraged by you. Yeah, probably spend the whole hour talking about what what you guys have been doing.

1:08 Man's just grateful for you guys, it is by God's grace, and thank him for connecting us. And allow me to share a little bit of my story. I'm forty two years old now. I got saved. Excuse me, I'm forty one years old. Wow, I before you said Yeah, to use let's you get past forty. It's kind of lose count. So turning forty two in January, but forty one now. The Lord Save me when I was thirty two, prior to Christ as savior and Lord of my life, my sin was and Satan really was the Lord of my life. Yeah, I mean just in the form of doing whatever I wanted to do, with whoever wanted to do it with whenever I wanted to do it.

1:49 So I was really good at it, and I don't boast in that, but just to give you a perspective, man, I was. I was in the world pretty hard and chasing, you know, sex, drugs, entertainment, yeah, and everything that is involved with those things. And so the Lord at thirty two and his kindness, he sent one of my old friends and he shared the good news that that that God is good and His grace is being poured out on people and the form of Jesus Christ, that I'm a sinner who needed to be saved from my own sin, the condemnation that I deserve, rightfully, so place called Hell was reserved for me. Yeah, if I didn't repent. And in God's kindness, man, Holy Spirit broke through my heart and heart and I found myself, at thirty two years old, hitting my knees. Didn't grow up in the church, really didn't know what to do. Yeah, long backstory to that, but man, I'm just third story of a town house, wasn't in a church service or anything. Holy Spirit got a hold of me and I believed in Jesus and the next couple weeks and months were very interesting. And terms of adding theology to what that yeah, the Lord was kind to send me men to lead me to disciple me, men who are passionate about the Gospel, about the Scriptures, about evangelism, and they told me that's what Christian life looks like. Now that you're saved. It's our goal to help go save others.

3:21 Yeah, through the power of the spirit. And it was only till I got involved with some church folks. They told me, hey, you need to chill out, like that's not what you're supposed to do a little bit. Yeah, just real being a little bit. But Man, by the Lord's grace, friend of ours, Adam Tenant, we just got done talking about. Yeah, he told me, Hey, now that you're a Christian, it's time for stand up for the things that God cares about, and he brought me out here to the trope. Probably been a Christian that point for six months and there you right out in the yeah, I've always been all in. Right, whenever I was doing I was all in. So I was up for it. I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I never forget the day we came down here. We were living in Hunter's bill at the time and it was probably it felt like it was seventy degrees. I think I had shorts on. Brought the wife and my kids. Autam said it's a great place to bring your kids, you know.

4:11 So I brought the wife. My wife was probably six months pregnant the time. Okay, brought her and and the kids out and got down here and it was like we entered into a different world. Yeah, I felt like it was thirty degrees colder. You could just feel the presence of evil man in a way. Yeah, and not experience that point. And at that point I was already doing street evangelism and so on and so forth, and just a cool you know stories that my wife She's from Columbia, South America, okay, and South Carolina, said, yeah, everyone always said South Carolina. She's from South America. She's beautiful, by the way. She ever watches or listens to this. I love my wife. Grateful for but the Lord used her in away that day, which rock my world because at that point I was kind of the mouthpiece. I was sharing the Gospel everybody, just in my zeal and, because she spoke Spanish. I think page said Hey, would you mind getting on the MIC? It's Adam's wife.

4:59 Adam's wife said, hey, would you come in, and they put my wife on the mic and they just were telling her what to say and she was translating in Spanish to a Spanish family that went in hate. Come out. There's hope for you. There's yeah, there's there's another option and man, by God's grace, he used my wife that day to for this family to choose life. Yeah, that's powerful, and I'm over here looking like like beaux. That point my wife was very let's say immature, but she was very reserved. Maybe she was very rich, she still reserved, but she was just very young in the faith and she she wasn't outspoken at all for the Gospel at that point. So to see the Lord use her and lay maybe timid. Yeah, it's timid, just I don't know.

5:41 Yeah, yeah, timid's good word. So, anyways, the Lord Jesus. Yeah, the Lord used it. I'm I'M A, I'm a blended we part of a blended family. So what I met my wife, I had one son and she had to and a few years actually, what she was pregnant at that point. And and so I remember when she got pregnant, you know, I started to realize the weight of what I had done. Yeah, in my past I was a post excume me, I was a I'm a post to board, a father. But at that point I started realizing man like it almost felt like the unforgivable sin. Yeah, to me was because I realized when I was in the world and I wasn't a Christian, I didn't give two thoughts about if it was a life. I could care less. Yeah, I didn't even consider the arguments of is it life, is it a Glob of cells. All I do is that a girl got pregnant, came to me, she told me she's pregnant, and my only response was to go get rid of the problem. Yeah, that was my mindset, and that happened at least twice, if not a few more times. Some of it's a little blurry and foggy. I mean that's that's how out there I was. But as a Christian who had a pregnant wife, now, I thought that God was going to punish me. MMM, I thought that I didn't the baby was going to maybe die in the womb or come out maybe defective. Yes, yeah, sure, probably weird word for it, but I just felt like, because of my past sin, like this was something that God was going to hold against me. Yeah,

7:15 and I'm up until the point of Lucas, who's now seven years old, up until the point of his birth. And so when he came out the womb, I don't know if you've seen kids who are like gasping for air, their bodies are purple. Yeah, like when he came out the womb and I was I was I felt like something's wrong with him. M and at that moment I was like, man, this is just what I was going to bear. Yeah, and then, and then a few seconds later, he turned to deep read or pig or whatever, started crying and doctors like you have a healthy baby boy, and I was like Whoa. Yeah, you know, but you know one sense, I mean that mentality and I want to say it's a it's a fully biblical mentality. But we, we are all undeserving of the good gifts that God absolutely, because all of our past are tainted with sin and rebellion against God. Man, but part of you, know, I just know, part of your heart is sort of ministering from the way the Lord has done a work in your life and where he's brought you from and minister into other guys and even even ladies in you know, a pastoral capacity. You get all kinds of stuff that's throwing your way and you get these opportunities really bring people from a place of brokenness and a place of just mistrusting God and mistrust him whatever to a place of healing. Yeah, man, so talk a little bit about sort of the springboard of your past and how that sort of sprung you into, you know, bringing people to a place of healing and reaching people with the Gospel

8:46 and with, you know, with God's ability to heal. Yeah, it's great question. I'm glad I got to share some of the earlier stuff because it really had some contact to yeah, the next part. But I've always firmly believed, I mean, scriptures true and God's words infallible, right. But said Corinthians, one says the God of All Comfort Comfort you to comfort others in their suffering. Yeah, and so I remember about about a year after I got saved. I remember I was on fire for the Lord the first year and I remember one day hit me up started become a little depressed because I started thinking back to my past. was rugged. Yeah, I had suicidal thoughts. I was many broken relationship, heard a lot of people.

9:28 I was hurt along the way, and so I started in my mind questioning the goodness of God. Yeah, you know, why would a good God allow me to go through these things for thirty two years? I mean, yes, I'm glad I'm saved and having a brand new heart and new eternity and all that stuff great, but man, there's some real pain I experience. And Yeah, brother Actually Justin Edwards for years. Yeah, he shared Seton Corinthians one with me and it changed my outlook. Is like, man, God's given me a testimony, and so I started having an understanding of that. But it wasn't until week forty and I've been coming out to the abortion milling and doing some some ministry with cities for life and the tenants and others. But likely going through some pictures some months ago, I think I sent you the picture, but it's like, I don't remember. It was back in two thousand and I mean it was probably shortly after you got saved, maybe the first couple of times you've come out. I was like that's that's passed a yeah, it was us a lot thunder back then.

10:22 You're a lot of thanner. Yeah, I was too. Well, I was a lot more baby faced. I guess it was. You probably had less gray hair. I had less gray hairs. You had gray hair back then. To them it was kind of a block where you one of Tho guys who started getting gray hair in high school? Yeah, pretty much, but anyway, yes, so you say, yeah, yeah, better have gray hair than though here. Yeah, so, man. Yeah, so I've been coming out and I understood and in my theological background, in my denomination, real heavy emphasis on good hermoneutics, but good biblical Hermoneutics. Yeah, we want to understand the context of scripture. We want to understand that we're saved by grace alone, through faithfulone in Christ alone, for God's glory alone. We know it through the scripture alone. And I would say well, well intended, but under emphasis on healing. Yeah, and deliverance.

11:13 And so at week forty, the first year they did it, I was actually step life. Yeah, so love life, Super Skeptical of the ministry in general. Who are these goodlooking guys? And, yeah, and these hipsters and yeah, hipsters, and and these soft colored shirts, even though I think we both have on like soft colored shirts today. Maybe, maybe not, but it is a strong colored sure. Isn't what you're talking about? Yeah, is this? Yeah, I don't know. Blue. I like T tario. So we're good. There's a baby blue baby shower right there. But yeah, man, just seeing these guys are being skeptical, skeptical of their ministry, not primarily because of their good looks and they're soft blue shirts, but because they weren't preaching the Gospel explicitly. Yeah, they were praying and worshiping. I'm like, what's up with that and somebody connected me with Andre. went out for lunch and I think it was me.

12:01 Man, was it you? Was it feather? You definitely was like the Holy Spirit just connected you, just getting active. So so somebody connected me Andre. Okay, excuse me, Daniel, you connect me with Andre. And I wasn't, I wasn't not going to come out, but I wasn't like excited about it, for say, because I knew the good work the cities for life was doing, knew the good work that other ministries were doing. And remember talking Andrea said all y'all doing is just praying. MM. And he said what do you mean, brother? He said don't you believe in the power of prayer? And it hit me. I've been a Christian this point for five years, maybe six, and when you asked me that question I realized that I didn't. I didn't believe in the Po of prayer.

12:45 Yeah, that if I thought that that prayer was some sort of, you know, unpowerful tool that God had given the church, that was something or for me was I we could do that in a prayer closet. So we're going to go out. That about the thing. I was like, we're going to go out there. We need to preach the Gospel. That's the way of salvation, like and just really undermining the work of the spirit through prayer. And so that challenged me and so I came out on week forty, brought a couple guys from our church and brought a few of my sons. I five boys and my oldest son during week forty. Either you know, this great experience or praising, worshiping. You're they're talking about words of healing and deliverance. Some oldest son looked at me that day and he said that have you ever had an abortion? Now, I don't remember if we ever had the conversation before, but I've never been as clear as it was that day that I looked at him with tears of my eyes and told him yes, I had, and I'm start crying and he started crying with me. Yeah, and next thing I know he's hugging me, my oldest son. I start thinking about, you know, my children in heaven that I, you know, sent to the slaughter yeah, and man, I just broke down and started crying and so crying with him. Other son comes over, we start crying. Dues from the church come over and I don't even know if they knew why. They start crying with us weep and yeah, man, and so the Lord really that day, I believe he initiated a major movement of healing in my life. And soon after, you know, meet with Andrea and Justin, who are now good friends of mine and

14:15 yours as well. I told them my story about how the Lord healed me and just uniquely, I don't think there's probably a lot of pastors who have that testimony. Yeah, and you know, what we can look at is a painful, you know, post Christian life the Lord will use to glorify himself and help bring healing to others. And so they were really adamant about me sharing that story and they and I was really adamant to share that story as well. I've never been quick to turn out opportunity to declare the glory of God. Yeah, and so I think the next year at love life, I begin sharing that testimony on Saturday mornings and I got to go into some churches and talk about it and then really just begin to personally heal.

14:56 And then to realize, man, as I looked at the landscape of, you know, my wife and other Christians, that there was a lot of Christians who had had abortions. Yeah, and so you know, we're a messed up bunch man, apart from the grace of God, you know, we're kind of like, you know, with David in the in the men who come to stand with David when he was running away from saw, it says they were basically that the indebted, the the rejects of society. That's that's the Church of Jesus Christ. Now, yeah, we're rejects of society, but we're embraced by by the Lord and we're changed by the power of a spirit. And those men became what David's mighty men. Ye, right, yeah, and that cool. Well, the Lord David Himself, I mean, yeah, he's like a man after God's own heart and he was a adulters murder like you missed us, so h so, yeah, man, that the Bible is quite I want to touch him one point you just came to mind, which I think is pretty cool and it's maybe a rabbit trail, but I think this will help others. When you said your son just turned to you and howld you, how would your sign that time?

15:56 That point he was probably thirteen or fourteen yeah, so I remember. Do you remember how long love life's been in existence? So it was two thousand and sixteen, I think, was our first prayer walk. Okay, so he was was that three years ago? He's sixteen, Thirteen. Yeah, so I'm thinking how would this young man know the turn to his dad and ask him that question. Dad, if you ever had an abortion? Obviously the implications. You ever taken someone to have an abortion or paid for an abortion? And I think it's this is important for us as dad's that, you know, we don't have to share every golry gruesome detail of our lives and our past, but we need to be sharing on a regular basis with our kids a testimony what we were. Yeah, and I'll bet you you cheered with him kind of what you were, where you came from, and it was sort of to him as like well, my dad's done this, he's done that. Yeah, but I bet this might be in his past to that kind of how that how that played out? Well, you know, so thirty two years of of and I'm but I wasn't just like a kind of halfway center, like I was full on, like we're all full on. But I know what you mean. But everyone that knew me knew what I was about. I was about drinking, drugging, you know, pouring around part whatever it was, man, that's what I was about.

17:02 Yeah, and so because I had thirty two years of that, it's I've only been living less than ten years under the blood of Christ. Yeah, and so I can't forget my testimony. Yeah, like, whether it's through, you know, seeing things or hearing things or smelling things, like, I'm reminded constantly of who I used to be. Yeah, and and so, by the grace of God, when Satan reminds me who I used to be, I remind him of who I am now, and he reminds me of my past, I remind him of my future a man. And so, yeah, we've never skirted away from from sharing with our kids, and even as a Christian now, who who? Maybe I'm not like doing a cocaine and sewing and so forth, but man, I still mess up around my kids. Yeah, and there's Times where dad gets angry, or there's Times where dad maybe was passive, or there was times where dad has chose himself over his children. Yeah, and so I use those opportunities to go to my kids and say I'm sorry. Yeah, this, I didn't.

17:57 I didn't. I wasn't being Christ like. Yeah, and so, yeah, we don't hesitate to ask for forgiveness and to share our sinfulness, because it only leads us to basking the glory of God even so much more so. Another rabbit trail on how long you got on this podcast, but thirty four. Yeah, yes, to two nights ago my two youngest came to my room and they were arguing about something. And there's five years old and seven years old, Moses and Lucas, and I've got a Moses. I got a Moses Bro Yeah, yeah, we'll see how he lives out that name. said. Doesn't have the staff yet, but he's working on it. So but men that they got to come in my room and I forget what happened specifically, but there was some sins, some tension between those two.

18:45 I just said Hey, come sit down beside me and I walked him through what it meant to be a man and what it meant to be a leader. I pointed back to Adam and said if Adam would have been doing his job and leading as a man like we wouldn't even had this in the first place. Yeah, like Adam drop the ball, and that's why eve ate of the fruit, and and so through that I'm trying to remember why I got rabbit trailed. Well, you're talking about but ring board. Yeah, and so then I got to tell them back, you know, because we just got off week forty last weekend, and I got to share with them. I said, listen, if it wasn't for the grace of God, we're all sinners, but if it wasn't for the grace of God that genesis is three fifteen. Promise you two wouldn't be here. Yeah, like Moma and I wouldn't even be together. And so I don't want them to wallow in their sin, but to say, Hey, because of God we are, yeah, because of God we can and because of God we will.

19:36 Yeah. And so yes, we sometimes we need to meditate on our sinfulness and not just think we're God's gift to the world, we've done nothing wrong, that we don't deserve this grace. But he's given it his grace and he's given us and empowered us to live and empowered life now and then for the future. And because of God's grace I now have Moses and Lucas. Yeah, yeah, and they've they're seeing a mother and father who love each other IM perfectly, who mess up as parents frequently but quick to say hey, I'm wrong, we you forgive me and God's graces sufficient. So, yeah, yeah, and so you know, you just in the realm of ministry as a pastor and then sort of the Lord using your past, you know, minister your kids, also to minister to others and ministering in particular to post aboard of father. Yeah, men share some of those stories or share some of your heart as far as minister and the post aboard of men. Because, you know, people think that it's just women that are affected by abortion, it's just women in the church that have had abortions, which, you know, the statistics are one third of all women in United States of America have had an abortion. Probably even higher within the church.

20:40 I don't know exactly, but at least one third of the women that you're preaching to, yeah, have been affected by abortion. Yeah, but we often do affect forget about the men. They're affected by abortion. That's thing is like. You know, it's like a snake, slither's where ever you can go and just devours whatever it can. You know, to talk about the ministry to post able to fathers. Yeah, man, I mean it's messy. It's messy because if you're plowing a field, you know, when you start plowing the field, and I'm not a farmer at all. I don't know if you are, I'm not, but tried, I've been if dad when I tried to cultivate it, and because it's hard. It's hard work, right, hard work. Yeah, and got to stick with it. So the women, they're usually it's usually it's not hard to maybe get them to tap back into that moment because they were in the room. Yeah, they physically had things done to them and the men was absent from that.

21:34 Yeah, and I think just in our society in general, the way God's design the family is that the man is supposed to lead. In our society says, Hey, who, do whatever you want to do. Yeah, women can lead and men. Just saw a picture yesterday of a woman proposing to a man and she was on one knee and he stand there getting the ring, and I that's a and so we live in a society that that calls meat vegetables and cause vegetables meat and women can be men if they want to. And identifies whatever they want, down and down as up. It's just so yeah, it's so scattered. And so when you start getting back to the biblical rolls of men and women, we have to we have to drudge through all that. We got to plow those fields and say we don't care what culture says. Right, because cultures say man, be strong, pull, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and move on and not deal with, yeah, the pain of your heart. And so, going back to your question is, what has it been like? Well, I've ministered to several men and some of these men have abortions from thirty years ago.

22:33 Yeah, and so the hard part is to get them to go back, yeah, right, to get them to go back and and and see the reality of that moment and the reality of their failed responsibility. They're failed action or even there, whether it's their complacency or they're pushing the woman to do it. Yeah, and then dealing with it at that moment, because you can't deal with you can't move on till you've done with the past. You want to live in the past, but you got to deal with that moment. Yeah, and so the hard part for for you know, post aboard of fathers that we've been taught all our life is that we need to be tough and just keep moving on. And so this thing extends past abortion.

23:18 I know that's the purpose of this, but but men in general have been abused sexually, physically mentally at early ages. Yeah, and we just been taught, Hey, we got to keep it moving. But until we go back to those moments and see our failure and action, whether it's, you know again for against apathy or pushing, until we get back to that moment, we're not going to we're not going to move on. So that's the hard part. Yeah, for men because, like again we just been talking. Do you find that? Because you know, just in my experience at the abortion clanking up, talk to men and you've been there and you've talked to man. We've probably even ministered together some men at the abortion clinic. There you find a lot of apathy, but you also find a lot of brokenness even within the men. I mean some of them are coercing her to having a passionate but but the majority of men that I've talked to have taken the attitude of well, if it was up to me, she wouldn't have the abortion, but it's her body, her choice, and of course the implication was that her body, her choice, her fault, her problem, she bears the weight of it. Yeah, but they're still feeling some guilt there. But do you find that that maybe they some men, in order to make themselves feel less guilty or feel sort of like they weren't a part of it, do sort of push that off on the woman, like, you know, I didn't really want her to do it, but she did it, and so they're trying to shirk the guilt that they actually feel, yeah, by blaming it on her. Do you find that to be the case's go back to scripture. Right, Huh, kind of. What is that? Amy And hey, this is the woman you gave me. Yeah, it's like no, dude, you had a responsibility. Yeah, and so, whether it's abortion or whatever, since we're dealing with it's the man's

24:48 responsibility, right, doesn't it doesn't usurp that or negate that the woman has a responsibility as well, or the children. Absolute the man's been called to lead. Yeah, and so I've been out there on the sidewalks and it sounds harsh to say hey, hey, brother or hey fella, yeah, like if you don't go stand up, you're being a coward. Yeah, and man, that sounds harsh, but it's true. It is, it's true, and the reality is as the as the abortive father. Years ago, I was being a coward, like I was. I had to deal with my cowardlessness. I want. I preferred comfort over responsibility. My responsibility to myself was having fun. Yeah, and this is just an accident that happened and a problem. You got a problem I got to take care of.

25:37 It's going to get in the way of, you know, her life or my life, because I don't plan on being with her anyways. Yeah, yeah, just, yeah, man, in general, man, we we like to blame shift and people who don't have the Holy Spirit. You can't fault them for that because they don't know any better. In a sense, I mean the stull the responsibility to take responsibility, but it's just the it's the default, yeah, for our society, is to blame others. Yeah, you know, we don't like the way society goes. Blame the president. Yeah, we don't like the way the sandwich tasted. Blame who, like you, probably blame the chef for that. But but you know, I'm saying, like we lame the mayonnaise company. Yeah, we can blame everybody. Yeah, it's like you don't want to cook it, Bro Yeah, yeah, yeah, just so, how don't you go away?

26:22 Yeah, well, and less. Yeah, unless the Holy Spirit comes in and does his work, which is sort of that. You know, that is the focus of this podcast. You're talking about pro life stuff and talk about, you know, abortion, but it is always in light of the Gospel and what God has done, obviously in our hearts, what God has done in your heart. We minister out of that. You know, I have a story. I've shared it in a previous podcast, my my past and how the Lord took me from a father at seventeen years old. My wife got pretty if you know, my wife was pregnant in high school, sixteen, I was seventeen. Our baby was born when I turned eighteen and then, you know, we have a twenty one year old daughter now and God has really done a work in our lives through that. That's actually what the Lord used to bring me to himself, is that unwanted pregnancy situation.

27:07 So I minister out of that. I minister out of what the Lord has done in my heart. You know, freely you have received, so freely give, Jesus said, and you men are shadow that same thing. So talked then, if you can, about the healing you. So you talked a little bit about it. Love Life, yeah, and how the Lord, I guess, confronted you in that sin but also brought you know, a brokenness. You know, we don't we don't begin with God until we end up with ourselves. Right, we got to be done with ourselves and even in our Christian lives. So we've got to lay it down right, we've got to lay down and we go from glory to glory by laying stuff down good and and it seems like that week forty and two thousand and sixteen when the Lord did that for you. As far as the abortions in the past, yeah, so talk about how the Lord has brought you from that point of brokenness to healing. And then, you know, you've already talked a little bit about ministering to others. Maybe you share a story of a guy that you've ministered to, if you can. Yeah. Well, so I've been a pastor church planter for three years and probably my favorite thing that I've learned that I quote myself on is you don't know what you don't know.

28:08 Yeah, so I think I might have got that from you, because I say I say that a lot. I mean I'm sure about the first guy to ever said but if I was writing a book, that might be the title. And what that does it allows you some freedom from you know, the Lord's sanctifying us. Right. So sometimes we you know, like that week forty moment happened. Yeah, instead of feeling condemnation, I felt release. Yeah, but, but, but sometimes in the Christian walk, when we realize the weight of our sin or something, sometimes it can cause us to look back and even drudge or put our heads down. And so God's not in the business of having US walk through life with our heads down. He wants us to look up and see him and push on. Fhlippings, three hundred and thirteen fourteen, the upward call. Yeah, not looking back, but looking forward. And so again, the first five six years of being a Christian we just didn't hear about healing another's it's kind of implied, right, when you need to the Gospels, and I mean the way the Holy Spirit works, you're going to you're going to receive healing. Yeah, but for someone to shine a light and say, man, brother, you need to be healed. Like I just hadn't heard that kind of language until week forty and it happened and I don't even it was the Holy Spirit.

29:21 Yeah, the clearly was was doing the healing. But so for me even lately, it's just being around you know, my you know my pentecostal brothers, and and it just being around different denominations where people are focused on, Hey, let's let's tend to the wounds of your heart. Our Church plant is where, in the adoption process of a church planning network, really not network of family, of church is called Soma, okay, and some of the Greek word for body. And there they've been really instructive about getting on the front end of soul care. Yeah, and ways I've never really heard and comprehensive ways, which has been so refreshing to me, because as ministers of the Gospel, we all are going to struggle, yeah, as fathers were all going to every Christian is going to struggle. Yeah, as we battle our sin, and so some moons are going to come up.

30:11 So if we don't have our identity rooted in Christ, if we're not trusting and depending on the spirit of God and realizing that we've been adopted into a family that we can't get out of. And so God loves us and he cares for us and he wants us to to be healed. If we don't walk in that kind of light, then we're never going to progress or to be sanctified in the ways Romans Twenty eight says. We're being conformed to the image of Christ. The body of Christ has a lot of things need to be healed of. Yeah, and so when God shine that light on me, and he's been shining this light of healing, I've just been exposing it from the pulpit. Okay, when I meet with brothers, it's not hey man, did you get the right context for every scripture? Say Hey man, how is what is God trying to do here? What do you sense in the spirit moving is? Is there is an are your life that's not been submitted to Lordship of Christ? Is there an area of your life that the Holy Spirit is is revealing that needs to be needs to be healed, or is there something in your life that you need to be delivered from?

31:11 Yeah, so just new language and I'm still learning. Man. So I mean later in our brothers like you and other brothers to help me through this. But specific stories, man, I mean, you know, there's so many and I'm not sure like confidentiality. I mean I'm one of those real transparent guys, don't give any names, like, but that like I don't even know how to not be transparent. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, another brother. Just talking to about I'm trying to love and forgive. I guess I'd be okay if my mom heard this, but I've I've had an a strange relationship with my mother. Yeah, and it's one that I'm, you know, actively praying and and seeking. How do we how do we reconcile? I don't think she knows the Lord yet and there's there's some areas of betterment her heart. But what I realized one day was that, man, I've been really bitter towards her. Yeah, you know, I can label, mislabel it really all kinds of other things and Oh, I've tried and I've kicked your dust off and move it and all that, but it's like, at the end of the day, it's like there's a part of my heart that it needs to be healed and needs to love her. I'm yeah, unconditionally. And so this is not necessarily on the issue of abortion, but I was just sharing that with another brother and he confessed to me.

32:28 Man, he had a stepmom. They got introduced from at five years old and and about eight years old he started hating her, yeah, and his brothers in his s now, and just through that conversation of seeking the deeper areas of our heart, I think you know, he reached out to her and he sought to make amends and just to love her unconditionally. Yeah, with no agenda. And so that's one story. I mean, I've got countless stories my own home, but I just want to protect my over yet and no, wife's like you always talked about us from the pulpit. I tried only like use great stories. Yeah, and then I've got tons of personal stories, but but yeah, man, it's just well God does to you, he'll do through you, and so it's hard for it's hard for you to go and talk about healing if you haven't been healed. Yeah, it's hard for you to forgive others if, if you excuse me, it's hard for you to talk about forgiving others if you haven't personally forget.

33:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know there's a first John. First John's like one of my favorite books of the Bible. Tough one, it's tough. But well, that's weird. That's one of your favorites, it's one of my favor so what are your so holy? Yeah, exactly. That's right. But the first part of that actually memorize this first couple of verses and it talks about walking in the LICES is. This is the message which we had heard from him, talking about Jesus, and we declare to you that God is light and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another. In the blood of Jesus, Christis son, cleanses us from all sin. And the Lord, you know, really showed me because I was just praying, because he actually goes on to say that those that have the seat of God in them they do not sin. But he also says that when you send so obviously he's not saying that we never sin. Yeah, and so I was sort of meditating on that. Walking in the light. What does that mean?

34:16 Walking His light? Is God talking about sinless perfection, like we need to walk in sinless perfection? It's like, no, he's not talking about that. Talking to walking in the light is actually holding your failings, in your sin before God and saying Yes, God, this was wrong and confessing it, bringing it into the light. It's not sinless perfection. It's being honest with where you've gone, where you what you've done and bringing it to the light. And even says in that scripture is it's curious there that says that if we walk in the light, we have fellowship with one another. Yeah, so our fellowship often times, and you've probably experienced this, to you that when somebody's holding on to a sin, yeah, when they're holding on to something in their past or they're holding on maybe justifying an attitude that they have, unforgiveness or whatever. Yeah, it actually even B breaks fellowship with other brothers. MMM, because there's a sort of a mistrust thing that goes on. Like the reason why people don't bring stuff to the light is because they don't trust other people to not do the same thing that was done to them. And it can break fellowship, it can mess things up and even though a church, you know. Yeah, so just speaking on that a little bit, and that's good. I'm at to get you can preach our church on that some time, but you can't do that apart from relationships.

35:22 Yeah, and so that's why we started our church. I'm not trying to plug our church, but that's probably yeah, man, that's why we start urgents. Yeah, because there's converted church, converted church in CCOM all right, but down the on the note. Yeah, I mean. Yeah. So, yeah, men, think about what I need to tell about the church. No, man, that's why we started the church the way we did, and we do these, we call him great commission groups, because the great commissions to make disciples. It's not just an evangelist that called. Yeah, we're disciples, right. So we want to make good disciples, because we're all discipling somebody, whether we know it or not. Yeah, and so we want to be these kinds of disciples who can walk in the light and can share those things. But you can't do that part from relationship, right. Yeah, absolutely. If if you're fellowship with other Christians is segmented to one hour on a Sunday, like that's just not adequate. Yeah, like, that's not if I only knew you for one hour and Sunday and you came to me and start talking about your sin, like I don't really have the capacity to minister to you. Yeah, and or even really a capacity to care. It's like, yeah, that's kind of what I meant. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's just like, man, I don't know you and hey, man, I'll be praying. I'll pray for you. Brother, I might earnestly pray for you, but yeah, man.

36:31 So that's why I love about cities for life. It's what I love about love life is they're not just transactionally preaching a message on the street corner, like if that's all it was. And that would be good in its sense, because you're going to, you know, a place of death and calling out to save and bring life. But you guys are invested relationally. We got pictures on the wall. We know some of these mothers. Yeah, is mothers have come up to our church and begin some relationship, and that's where in communities, where the light shines on the things. You know, we all always look at Matthew Eighteen when Jesus talk about church discipline.

37:15 We look at that, that last portion. We're going to put them before the church, we're going to send them out. Basically, we're going to kick them out. Yeah, and Church discipline, if it's done rightly, the first step is going to your brother one on one. Yeah, and so that's a relational thing. And so going back to this whole conversation is that if you're going to be a post aboard of father seek to Minister to post the board of fathers or be a post of board of father who seeking to be ministered to, you got to be plugged into a local church. Yeah, and not just one where you're showing up on Sunday, you're sitting the back row, you don't know anybody and you've kind of checked the box like you'll you'll be healed or delivered that way. Holy Spirit can work in spite of that. But the way Holy Spirit works is through scripture, through prayer and through community. Yeah, and and what better place to be around other broken people that can love you and encourage you and equip you? Pastor's jobs to equip the work of the ministry. So so this is the way God's taught me about healing now equipping the body right. So I'm limited in the amount of men I can reach or women with the post aboard of healing.

38:19 Yeah, but as I equip our church for this, we've got a hundred men and women who are gathering regularly throughout the week, not just on Sunday but in their communities, and they're going out and children our churches, hundred people strong praise God. Seventy five of things or children. Man, it feels like it's about fifty. Fifty five, I mean. And so our kids are now. I mean I probably saw ten of them volunteer and Love Life Week. Forty. Yeah, I our kids are the next generation who are standing in the gap now for the children, but also standing in the gap for people who might make that decision. I have kids at a Christian school in the city and the principle told me that, man, probably a quarter of those kids are Christians. And so they're there and I brought love life to to the school and their school participated as part of their mission week the past two years and man, it caused the stir amongst the parents.

39:13 Why are you sending our kids out there? Yeah, and even my own kids had to become apologists for why life is got as God's thing. It's we love life because because God does. Yeah, and so my kids now are speaking up and my even my own, one of my sons, was ministering to one of our relatives who saw some of our postings, like why would yall go out there and some my fifteen year old son is now studying the scriptures and he's he wants to become more sharpened and equipped so that he can speak on behalf. Yeah, God through this issue of abortion. So it's very it's very apologetic issue. Yeah, it's life and death issue, but it's a glory of God issue. Yeah, I mean God loves life. So why I create us? We're create as image. Yeah, you know what I mean. So, yeah, I know. One of the is a post I read from John Piper some months ago that he put out. You basically, like some prolaborate person, had said, you know, if if all these babies are going to heaven and you know, hey, why is it a bad thing? Why is abortion of bad things just sending them straight to heaven? John Piper's response was, with the Devil's content to send, you know, a thousand babies to heaven as long as he can put a thousand women in Bondage to the sin of abortion. And it's like it's true, because it does bring bondage to women. And again the focus a lot of times it's on women, but it's also men in bondage, and the bondage is in still even some believers in the churches. Yeah, you know that. We are associated with probably my church, probably something

40:44 even your church, that are hanging onto that sand or in that bondage, even though they're set free by the blood of Jesus and when God from pronounces them justified, justified by grace through faith, yet there's still a bondage in their mind and like a holding back from all that the Lord could, could, could use them to do, because they're not they're not allowing the Lord to release them in the sense from that Sind. Man, have you experienced that in your congregation, some people getting set free from not maybe even not just passed abortions but other other things and seeing the Lord's sort of propel people in that way? Yeah, man, I mean that's essentially that's the process of sanctification. Yeah, is God setting you free from your past. Yeah, it's hard for me to get specific examples, because in our in our in my lot of work, it happens every day. Yes, sure, whether I mean some people are, they're in bondage to their their doctrine.

41:45 Yeah, you know, I'm a part of this camp and I can't fellowship with anybody else. I was like, man, man, God wants to free them from that. There's a unified body Christ. Going up to New York was powerful for me. I went. I went up to New York with love life. Okay, yeah, and this was their first year in New York City and they asked me to come up and share some of my story and I was quick to say yes and and got up there and we worshiped with some assemblies of God churches M and I don't even know if I've ever visited. Like when I got saved, I was like in the Baptist World in Charlotte, baptist, probably the majority of yeah, I'm sure people so laying the Badya just get, just get good Bible teaching churches. That's what I needed and, praise God, I'm I'm not ashamed of that at all. Yeah, I love my Baptist brethren. I am baptist, but but that's not the banner that I'm like Hey, I'm a baptist. Yeah Right. So going up to New York and see in the assemblies of God folks in the way they worshiped, like the Lord started setting me free.

42:43 Yeah right, you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, I don't want to go to rabbit trailed on the Kanye West thing, but his his Sunday service choir and seeing the expression of a black choir. I mean it moved me to tears and I'd never experienced that. And so I think, you know, what God wants to do is he unifies us through the scripture. He says, as we fellowship with light, fellowship in the light, we have fellowship with one another. The darkness wants to hide us and divide us. Yeah, and partition us. And so that's another thing I just love about, I guess abolition, or however you want to describe what do you call this movement? I mean, I had denify myself as pro life.

43:25 Okay, as people know what you're saying, but there's some we actually did some podcasts about pro life and abolition. Know that. But you know, one of the things this, this is powerful and actually so I think is podcast before last we put out, you know, flip flip. been them and I was talking to him a little bit about the the whole incrementalism and mediatism sort of debate. Actually listening to some of that. Okay, yeah, just a little bit. So. But one of the things he said to me, and he said this as we were preparing for the podcast, he said, you know what, because I asked me about abolition and what do you think about this and Prolife, when you think about the tag pro life, because I just say I'm pro life, because everybody knows what you're talking about. So I mean, I'm contend to be called anti abortion. Right people are killing babies. I'm anti that. It's like a anti slavery and all you know. So, but anyway, he said, you know what, we don't come out here. We were standing in front the abortion clinning when he said this. So we don't come out here as abolitionist or as prolife or as we don't come out here as a mediatist or incrementalist.

44:17 Come out here as Christians. We are here because we are followers of Jesus, Yep, and so that being that, that was a powerful statement to me. And and so he talked a little bit, a little bit in depth about that in that podcast, but it's just that is the mentality. I think this is about geese. So again, so this so. So. The reality of this issue is I look at this heart on your shirt as his baby, right, is that? And I understand why there's denominations. There's some stuff that's like, but they're just some disagreements. And Yeah, but this issue we all agree on. Yeah, right, this is a gospel issue, this is a Bible issue, this is a glory of God issue, this is a Imago day issue. Yeah, and if you don't, if you if you think this is okay, I got a question, if you have the Holy Spirit and have a firm understanding of scripture, if you think it's okay to convert the babies, and maybe some people just in mature and we can help them walk through that. But the beauty of this issue and this this problem is that it's uniting the church. Yeah, and so I praise God for the faithfulness of cities, for life and the Benhams and people who have just faithfully the hill drifts, I mean the Wilson's is the ten I get named his on and on. People just faithful.

45:28 You know, you and Vicki. Yeah, twenty degrees outside, freezing, and you're still out there right, and you probably were like, man, when's the church going to show up? Yeah, and then the past couple of years the church has shown up. Yeah, and so the things spreading. But but it's beautiful, as I as I minister next to different denominations and skin colors and age groups and whatever the background is. Yeah, so, man, yeah, just next time you're in New York, just suggestion. If anybody he's listening to good at Time Square church, you bet it there. Powerful. Well, we were speaking at a church on Sunday. Okay, you have the option. You go back. Go, because I mean you talking about different people from different background and you're looking at Africans, people from vision places in Asia. Like the choir itself is just an array of the entire world, because, you know, New York's a Melton Cot anyway. Yeah, and it's just like when I last time I was there, which is some years ago, with the choir just worshiping God and seeing everybody from every tribe and tongue and nation worshiping together. Just I think they're the ones, they're the ones that kind of champion the movement. And Yeah, I said, yeah, yeah, I'm mistaken. Yeah, well, brother, I think if you're if you're good to go, unless you have my off to say you copies about done. So we're going to wrap this thing up. Man, I appreciate you coming and Chare and brother.

46:37 Appreciate your heart, man, and I'll maybe have you back on sometime in the future. We'll talk some more about some whatever the Lord brings to us. God to mind. But I appreciate all those who listen, who joined us and just you know, check out pastor Bryan's church if you're in the Charlotte area and you're looking for a church home. These guys are disciplers there. They're not just there for the Sunday morning surface. They're there long haul, connecting people and Evangelistic Church. They're want to see people come to God's kingdom, which is awesome to disciple those people. So check it out. Convergence in see is it versions church inccom okay, we meet in the Plasan Midwood area on Sunday, but we have a six, probably potentially seven, missional communities that meet throughout the city to have a missional directive wherever they are.

47:24 So, yeah, we're not just the church gathered but scattered. Okay, and I sound horrible with this man. Can You? Can you edit my voice somehow? I can't. I can't make it sound better. That's your people know. I normally I can hear myself. Do I sound funny to you now? Sounds okay, cool. Yeah, well, so he who? You know? He preaches a lot of Sundays and he doesn't sound funny. He sounds sounds fantastic. You know, the Lord uses him. But yeah, yeah, so check those guys out, check us out. You can connect with me at D Park's cities for lifecom. That's my email address, Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org is our website, and then our sidewalks for life site that we always mentioned, sidewalks, and number four Lifecom, which is a Gospel centered sidewalk counseling website, just to encourage you guys and put out articles on regular basis. And maybe we'll have pastor Brian and I'll show you something on that. Yeah, I think it was yesterday a friend of mine who's an organ. Okay, he shared a sidewalks for life video. Okay, because I saw what's Corey's money us? Why?

48:20 Yes, Sarah, Sarah. Saw Her on the I was like, I know her. Yeah, he's from Oregon. So people across the guys, yes, or base guys. So yeah, you guys can be blessed to just get that website and let us know what you think about the podcast. If you had suggestions, maybe episodes, we can do subjects, we can cover it. I'd love to hear them, but until next time, God bless, use, use, give me, give me, cost me my life, but these two precious