Feb. 17, 2022

Is IVF Pro-Life?

Is IVF Pro-Life?

In vitro fertilization has been used for years to help couples who aren't able to concieve children naturally have children. Many don't realize that there are some major concerns with this process that we should have if we are going to hold a Biblical view of human life. In this episode, we talk about IVF in light of scripture and share some insights that will help you to think of IVF in a Biblically consistent way.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.160 I repented before God like I did. I just didn't know. I could 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.000 have known. I mean it's my fault. I could have known. I 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:10.189 could have looked into it a little more, but again, I just believed 4 00:00:10.429 --> 00:00:15.029 kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times, not 5 00:00:15.189 --> 00:00:20.870 a good idea. I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, 6 00:00:21.429 --> 00:00:27.219 and me Lord, I am yours, I am yours. I'm welcome 7 00:00:27.260 --> 00:00:32.579 to the Gospel Center Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designed to equip, encourage 8 00:00:32.740 --> 00:00:36.929 and challenge you in pro life ministry and always were the focus on the Gospel. 9 00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:48.090 Stay tuned, I felt show Passish, touch your heart. Use Me. 10 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:54.960 Welcome back to the Gospel centered pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys joining 11 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.679 us and we always encourage you guys to share this podcast episode, share this 12 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.000 podcast and all of the episodes that we produce with your friends, family members, 13 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:07.469 share it on social media and, yeah, just get the word out. 14 00:01:07.989 --> 00:01:11.390 We'd be very appreciative if you would do that. And the whole goal 15 00:01:11.430 --> 00:01:18.579 of this podcast is not to promote ourselves and make ourselves feel or look important, 16 00:01:19.939 --> 00:01:23.739 but to equip you and to challenge you. You guys who are listening, 17 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:29.579 mostly folks that are listening or people who are involved in sidewalk out reach 18 00:01:29.659 --> 00:01:33.890 ministry at their local abortion center. We get a lot of interactions from people 19 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:38.650 and questions from people, even some encouragement from folks. I just had someone 20 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:44.969 text me from southern California who asked me how was the duck? How did 21 00:01:44.969 --> 00:01:48.840 the duck taste? Oh dear. Yeah, that refers to one of our 22 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.439 last podcast right. Yeah, it was our episode where you talked about the 23 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.799 hooded Marganzer Duck. Hood. Isn't it a Gettin? Sir? Yeah, 24 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.959 I don't think they quite got the important message from that podcast. I say 25 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.790 got it. Yeah, but it was it was funny. It was something 26 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:09.789 that they actually latched onto there. So I didn't eat the hooded margins are 27 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:13.870 nook. It's still about here, swimming in our pond not far from where 28 00:02:13.870 --> 00:02:16.819 we're recording this podcast. Yeah, praise God. This podcast is not about 29 00:02:16.860 --> 00:02:23.219 ducks or eating ducks or anything like that, but it is about pro life 30 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:27.419 stuff in light of the Gospel, and so we hope to equip you guys 31 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:30.330 in this episode. That we're going to do is maybe a little outside of 32 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:36.090 our wheelhouse in the sense that we mostly focus on the outreach at abortion centers 33 00:02:36.729 --> 00:02:39.930 and and not on subjects like this. But we have done subjects like this 34 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:44.919 in the past. We've talked about birth control, we've talked about, I 35 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:50.560 don't know, other things more kind of like ideological things that have to do 36 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:57.960 with pro life, the prolife message and our prolife conviction and it. We've 37 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:02.550 never really talked about IVF. Right. What is IVF stand for in vitro 38 00:03:02.990 --> 00:03:07.789 fertilization? Yeah, we can get into some definitions. I think we should 39 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:12.069 here in just a minute. Yeah, but just like to let you guys 40 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:15.379 know this. We're not doctors. I'm not, you know, I'm not 41 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:21.099 a scientist that deals with invader fertile fertilization or anything like that. But I 42 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:24.340 don't think that we have to be doctors or scientists to dig into a subject 43 00:03:25.060 --> 00:03:30.930 and to see what the Scripture says about that subject and to see our convictions. 44 00:03:30.969 --> 00:03:38.289 Are Our convictions in line with the repercussions in the things that surround this 45 00:03:38.409 --> 00:03:44.719 subject? So we're going to talk about in vitro fertilization and our goal is 46 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.280 not to offend you. If there are people that are out there that have 47 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:53.919 been involved in IVF and some way shape or form. Our goal is not 48 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:59.509 to offend you, but we're not apologetic either. I'm not going going to 49 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:03.270 apologize for the truths that we share. And if you're offended, maybe that 50 00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:10.259 offense is conviction that you need to repent, and so if that's the case, 51 00:04:10.900 --> 00:04:13.580 then repent. You don't need to repent to me, repent to Jesus. 52 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:18.339 But I think this will be, more than anything, informative for you 53 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:21.939 guys that are listening. It probably for many of you will be a brand 54 00:04:23.019 --> 00:04:26.170 new subject, something not even on your radar. For some of you guys 55 00:04:26.250 --> 00:04:28.930 that who've been in this, this battle for a long time, we're going 56 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:31.410 to tell you stuff you already know and you could probably add some more to 57 00:04:31.529 --> 00:04:34.850 this conversation and teach us something. So we're not going to pretend to be 58 00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:39.439 experts on this, but again, we are going to be consistent with what 59 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:44.360 the Bible says and with our convictions that life begins at conception. So with 60 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.120 that, let's jump into a Vicky define what we're talking about when we're talking 61 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.829 about IVF or in Vito fertilization. Yeah, okay, so this is import 62 00:04:53.910 --> 00:04:57.269 or in vitro. So it be true, and this, this is for 63 00:04:57.709 --> 00:05:03.069 infertile couples, couples who cannot naturally conceive a child, okay, for whatever 64 00:05:03.189 --> 00:05:11.899 reason. So this process is one in which sperm and over them, the 65 00:05:12.220 --> 00:05:15.540 egg of the woman the sperm of the man are collected combined. Yeah, 66 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:21.529 and the egg is fertilized outside of the woman's body and then replaced into the 67 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:29.050 womb, right, and and hopefully then the pregnancy will proceed normally from that 68 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:35.720 point. Yeah, sometimes the egg is the fertilized egg is implanted immediately into 69 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:43.040 the womb. Sometimes it it isn't immediate, in which case that egg is 70 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:48.879 frozen. Yeah, and some people, especially in the past, would collect 71 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:55.470 many, many eggs and and have many frozen. kind of has a safe 72 00:05:55.829 --> 00:06:00.949 safety net. Yeah, so, which causes all kinds of problems which we're 73 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:04.060 going to be talking about. Yeah. So essentially, the term that used 74 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:08.100 to be used, or a term that you heard, you know, when 75 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:10.740 I was a kid, was test tube babies, right. Ever heard of 76 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:13.899 that? Yes, and it's kind of that constant right. Yeah, the 77 00:06:14.019 --> 00:06:18.449 child is conceived in a laboratory, sperm and egg come together at that point 78 00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:25.930 that's a Zygoat and embryo, whatever technical term. But we would believe, 79 00:06:26.329 --> 00:06:30.170 and I think it's consistent with the Scripture and consistent with what we've said on 80 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:32.680 this podcast all along, that life begins at conception, right, and that 81 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:39.319 when that egg and that sperm come together in that process called conception, a 82 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:45.040 unique life is created. Right, a unique human being has been created, 83 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.670 and it's at the earliest stage that human beings development. So the reason that 84 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:54.189 this came on our radar was actually we were on an airplane traveling to a 85 00:06:54.310 --> 00:06:59.509 conference and and a young lady who had had IVF sat down with one of 86 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:02.819 our team members and started talking about IVF, and then they came over to 87 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:06.420 talk to me because he had never really thought, I guess, a lot 88 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:11.939 about what she was saying. She was supporting it from a Christian world view. 89 00:07:12.019 --> 00:07:15.290 Yeah, which right away I struggled with. Right, I had not 90 00:07:15.449 --> 00:07:19.250 thought a lot about it honestly, until it but I knew I needed to 91 00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:23.689 do some research. I just feel it's important we can talk. We we 92 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:28.850 should be consistent as pro life people. We should be consistent in our biblical 93 00:07:28.930 --> 00:07:32.439 and practical stance in all areas well, in all areas, but certainly in 94 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:39.360 all areas that that are pro life, areas which this is so what I 95 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:43.959 did is I pulled out, I read many articles, but one of them, 96 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.790 which we cite on an article that I wrote then, which is a 97 00:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.550 summary of some of the research that I found. Okay, and we I 98 00:07:50.670 --> 00:07:54.470 cite that article so that you can go read this Article Yourself, and I 99 00:07:54.589 --> 00:07:58.740 recommend that, at the very least, following this podcast, that everybody do 100 00:07:58.899 --> 00:08:03.779 that, read some of these articles we cite to come to your own conclusion. 101 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:07.339 And what we're going to do in this podcast is kind of present the 102 00:08:07.459 --> 00:08:11.139 facts as we uncover them, and then we're going to give a conclusion at 103 00:08:11.139 --> 00:08:16.529 the end that we think the evidence points us to from a biblical perspective. 104 00:08:16.689 --> 00:08:20.730 And also, you know, like I started out, if there's some repenting 105 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:24.050 that needs to take place, and that's that's what you need to do before 106 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:31.919 the Lord, and don't let your feelings and don't let your experiences take you 107 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.000 away from it. What's actually true. Let's say that you have a child 108 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.029 that was conceived in IVF was the process by which you have that child? 109 00:08:43.830 --> 00:08:48.509 That child is human being loved by God, right life, your son, 110 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:54.750 your daughter, absolutely, and even though maybe if, as we shine some 111 00:08:54.830 --> 00:08:58.059 light on this, you start to realize this was not the best thing for 112 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.019 me to have been involved in. Doesn't devalue that child and it doesn't make 113 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:07.059 you a horrible mother or father or whatever. We don't know what we don't 114 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:11.450 know. Yeah, you know, I'll share my story real quick, not 115 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.929 about IVF, but about birth control. We talked about birth control in the 116 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.570 past and there are some forms of birth control that are not a board of 117 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:24.519 facient and there's some that are, and in the early stages of our marriage 118 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:26.519 we use some of the ones that were. Yeah, and I just I 119 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.879 didn't know I was doing what you do right. You have two kids and 120 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.200 use birth control, and I felt that's the way that certainly was an aortized 121 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.029 that, yeah, that that was actually could be in a bard up board 122 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:43.110 offacient. Yeah, and so I actually was exposed to cut like the truth 123 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:48.669 about birth control and and what it could potentially do through focus on the family. 124 00:09:48.710 --> 00:09:52.779 They actually had a an episode, yeah, and a guys sharing about 125 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:58.019 this and I repented before God like I did. Just didn't know. I 126 00:09:58.100 --> 00:10:01.019 could have known. I mean it's my fault. I could have known. 127 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:03.700 I could have looked into it a little more, but again, I just 128 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:09.129 believed kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times not 129 00:10:09.289 --> 00:10:13.169 a good idea. A long story short, we have eight kids now and 130 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:18.330 obviously we we've come to know taken a different path, taken a different path, 131 00:10:18.769 --> 00:10:22.200 but I will say that I did repent before God. There was a 132 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.200 point in which I remember all my knees weeping before the Lord saying God, 133 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.840 I'm sorry. Now, I don't know in that process of my wife taking 134 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.549 the birth control, if babies were aborted from her body because of the effects 135 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:41.389 of that stuff. I don't know. Yeah, and so I can't repent 136 00:10:41.429 --> 00:10:45.870 specifically and say I'm sorry, but I'm sorry that even open the door for 137 00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:50.700 this. I'm sorry that that's even a potential right. So that's my experience 138 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:54.059 with with birth control and I think it can be pretty similar to this. 139 00:10:54.259 --> 00:10:58.620 Actually, there are people that are listening that have been involved in IVF that 140 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:01.700 you need to repent before God. Yeah, God's Merciful, God's kind. 141 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:07.210 The Lord is gracious and Compassionate, slow to anger and rich and loving kindness. 142 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:09.370 But if we just try to take our sin and we come to the 143 00:11:09.490 --> 00:11:13.730 knowledge of the truth and we try to just hide that in darkness, the 144 00:11:13.769 --> 00:11:16.409 Bible says that if we hide it in darkness, we're not we're not going 145 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:20.159 to get the freeiveness of sin, but if we bring it to the light, 146 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.600 as he is in the lights. Is a first John Chapter one that 147 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.639 we have fellowship with one another in the blood of Jesus Christ, his son, 148 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.039 cleanses us from all sins. So bring your sin to the light. 149 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:33.590 Acknowledge before God doesn't necessarily mean you need to confess it before your whole church. 150 00:11:33.669 --> 00:11:35.309 Maybe you do. I don't know. However, the Lord leads you, 151 00:11:35.389 --> 00:11:39.710 but definitely, if God's convicting you in this, repent and know that 152 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:45.309 he's gracious. Now I would say that Daniel Parks has given away his conclusion 153 00:11:46.190 --> 00:11:48.740 anyway, of where this is leading us. Yeah, but I will say 154 00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:52.580 that when I the first article I read in the first one I sight. 155 00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:56.700 So it'll be interesting for us to start with that. That was one that 156 00:11:56.820 --> 00:12:03.330 came to the conclusion that IVF in certain circumstances was at the cull for a 157 00:12:03.370 --> 00:12:07.490 Christian. Yeah, so it'll be. So one of the their first points 158 00:12:07.889 --> 00:12:09.889 is, and they they approached it from a biblical perspective. All right, 159 00:12:11.210 --> 00:12:15.090 overcoming fertility is pleasing to God. That was their first point. Go over 160 00:12:15.210 --> 00:12:18.799 and and you know there's countless examples in the Bible. Abraham and Sarah, 161 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:24.919 Jacob and Rachel's that Ryan Elizabeth are all couples that were infertile and and God 162 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.120 changed that. I do think that's key and the author did not bring that 163 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.549 up. The author did not bring the point up that it was God that 164 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:39.669 brought about the change in those couples in fertility. A child was miraculously conceived 165 00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:45.740 through God's yeah, intervention. Wells, there's some passages and I know maybe 166 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.539 you're not going there, but I will say they're several passages where it talks 167 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:54.580 about the Lord Closes, closed Sarah's womb, Lord closed Ragel Rachel's Womb. 168 00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:58.370 I believe in there's some other passages to talk about other women that God closed 169 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:03.409 her womb, and so you know there's that to God opens and closes the 170 00:13:03.490 --> 00:13:07.250 womb. So God has a has a purpose in infertility. Cruel. I 171 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:13.279 think that that's one of the hardest points for me and in discussing this topic, 172 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:18.000 I can't I have children. I didn't have I didn't struggle with in 173 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.879 fertility. Yeah, but I know I wanted a third child when my husband 174 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.240 did not, and I remember during that time period the pain of that, 175 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.549 yeah, of feeling I'm not going to have a child that I so desperately 176 00:13:28.669 --> 00:13:33.149 wanted. So, you know, from an emotional perspective I get it. 177 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:39.389 I get why these women do but but anyway, the and and so this 178 00:13:39.590 --> 00:13:41.980 article said, yes, but fertility is clearly pleasing to God. Yeah, 179 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:46.019 although he does close some women's wombs. But yeah, but I mean I 180 00:13:46.059 --> 00:13:50.259 don't think theologically we can dive into all of that because obviously there are things 181 00:13:50.299 --> 00:13:54.100 that are a result of the fall. Like I don't believe just because someone 182 00:13:54.139 --> 00:13:58.289 can't conceive a child that that necessarily means that God has closed their womb. 183 00:13:58.330 --> 00:14:01.409 Right. It could be other things going on that could be remedied. Bah, 184 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:07.529 you know, maybe things like IVF done in a moral, a morally 185 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:09.960 acceptable way, which will dig into. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, 186 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.840 just want to miss that. Yeah, there are things that a result of 187 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:16.039 the fall that we just we don't know what, we don't really good point 188 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.159 and it's made a little bit later on in this article. So keep that 189 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.120 in your mind for when we hit there, because that's a really, really 190 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.269 important point. But the second one that the author points out is that modern 191 00:14:26.309 --> 00:14:31.509 medicine is a blessing and good in most cases, not all cases, but 192 00:14:31.629 --> 00:14:33.629 it most so. He said. We you know, in the same way 193 00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:37.980 that you'll take an aspirin for a headache, right well, that you're doing 194 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:43.700 something that is that is not technically natural, but it's made from the natural 195 00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:48.100 resources and ingenuity that God has given us, and that's the the author makes 196 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:52.370 the point that's the same with IVF. Okay, it's the ingenuity of the 197 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:58.649 scientist and you're taking what is natural, that egg and sperm coming to together, 198 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:03.730 and you're just kind of helping them along in the using modern medicine for 199 00:15:03.809 --> 00:15:05.929 a good purpose. It's not for an evil purpose. At least that's I 200 00:15:05.970 --> 00:15:11.120 mean they're cante respect on that just a bit. Whereas in a headache we're 201 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:20.600 talking about alleviating a person's pain, in IVF and creating a child in the 202 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.950 test whom you're literally creating a whole other life. That, and that was 203 00:15:24.070 --> 00:15:28.830 my major gut feeling as I was talking to that woman, was this is 204 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:37.100 a whole different level of intervention. The principles and the thought maybe sort of 205 00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:41.940 the things the same as we're talking about modern medicine, right, but yeah, 206 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.179 yeah, we're talking about the creation ire label of rights, of modern 207 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:50.210 rights, and that was exactly a human life. I agree. This is 208 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.049 exactly where my moment went. I couldn't always articulate it because I hadn't really 209 00:15:54.169 --> 00:15:58.529 ever thought about it really much. But but yeah, so that's a really 210 00:15:58.570 --> 00:16:02.330 good point. The third point that the author made was that they he the 211 00:16:02.370 --> 00:16:04.360 unborn child is human from conception. Of course, we all know that. 212 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:11.240 that. We know that that that is supported by scripture, and the reason 213 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.399 that the author brings that up is to point out that anything that destroys, 214 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:22.029 even from the earliest moment of conception, a human life, that that would 215 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:26.350 be wrong. So's he's he's building a case for why IVF is okay, 216 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.860 but does want to approach a biblically. So the unborn life. We agree 217 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:36.139 with that. Yes, the unborn life is human from the moment of conception. 218 00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:40.980 Yeah, so that little fertilized ovum egg in the embryo in the Petrie 219 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:44.740 dish is a little human being that's about to be implanted in the womb. 220 00:16:45.019 --> 00:16:49.250 The fourth point he made was that children should only be conceived by, and 221 00:16:49.570 --> 00:16:53.889 born to married men and women. Yeah, and that's the precedent set up 222 00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:56.690 in the garden of Eden, right with Adam and eve. So we would 223 00:16:56.690 --> 00:17:00.639 agree on that point. To biblically, he's he's sound in that. So 224 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:07.000 he's saying again this is this is an article that says VF can be morally 225 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.599 okay, it can be. He's long as within these parameters, that's kind 226 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.309 of what he's building. He's exactly he's building the points within these parameters it 227 00:17:17.109 --> 00:17:18.509 can be okay. And then he's going to going to go on to tell 228 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:22.829 us, when those parameters exist, where you find clinits with those parameters. 229 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:27.750 And then so his conclusion, although he does go into some objections, which 230 00:17:27.789 --> 00:17:32.740 will go into next, but his conclusion was therefore it is morally good and 231 00:17:32.980 --> 00:17:37.059 in some cases, and he laid it right out, it's good if the 232 00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:42.420 embryos are not destroyed. No embryos destroyed in the process. It overcomes infertility, 233 00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:47.690 which he says was God's original plan. He also said from the fall 234 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:52.250 infertility was not the plan right in the garden of Eden. That was the 235 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:55.529 result of the fall, right, and and that the blessing of the children 236 00:17:55.650 --> 00:18:00.200 is brought to a married man and woman. If, if I VF achieves 237 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:06.559 those three major goals, then it's okay, that's good. That's where where 238 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.880 he ended. Now it's objections, and it wasn't his objections. He said 239 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.869 this is what other people sit and I read a few articles that were actually 240 00:18:12.910 --> 00:18:17.670 on that side. Okay, of this discussion. So the first one is 241 00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:22.150 that it's not a natural process as God intended. Conception. Yeah, which 242 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:25.670 is obvious. No, it's not. Yeah, of course not, but 243 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:33.299 it is. It is, it's helping a natural process. And and again 244 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:37.099 the people that excuse this objection as this is not about objection, will say, 245 00:18:37.099 --> 00:18:41.130 yeah, but there are other medical interventions, many that are not natural 246 00:18:41.210 --> 00:18:45.009 processes. Yeah, but we spied them. Yeah, we still do them. 247 00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:49.890 Yes, sure, I mean dying is the natural process. If someone's 248 00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:55.839 having a heart attack and you know, just let the natural process carry through, 249 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.559 we would not use the defibrillator anything. Right, correct. But again, 250 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.319 we're talking can kind of next level. We're not just talking about saving 251 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.599 a life, we're talking about literally creating a whole another, whole other life. 252 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.029 Back to your dying thing. When I was thinking through all of this, 253 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:12.549 I thought, okay, what would be the that accurate parallel, though, 254 00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:19.109 with dying would be if you killed someone because they might die. To 255 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:22.990 me, that's again the same thing that you are you are taking a role 256 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:26.940 that belongs to God. Yeah, that's, I think, where we both 257 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:32.859 kind of are struggling with this is this seems like it's God's role, not 258 00:19:33.019 --> 00:19:38.890 ours. Yeah. So the second objection is that sex and conception are wrongly 259 00:19:40.529 --> 00:19:44.410 separated. Yeah, this goes back to what you were saying earlier. At 260 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:52.809 the fall there was no infertility. And what the the author that that counters 261 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.440 this objection says, yes, they are separated in the case of IVF, 262 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:03.519 but it isn't so much IDF that separates them. It's the fall that separated 263 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:10.910 them. The fall separated. For infertile couples, that's not what God intended. 264 00:20:11.589 --> 00:20:15.750 It's the fall that is separated, the act of sex with with right, 265 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.789 with conception. I thought that was an interesting yeah, because conception doesn't 266 00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:23.779 always happen. When I married couple as sex right right, and then for 267 00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:27.579 infertile couples it never happens. But that's not what God intended. It is 268 00:20:27.619 --> 00:20:33.220 the argument here is what is for I think, US, the most compelling 269 00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:36.690 right objection. This is the mazing the third one. Yeah, yeah, 270 00:20:36.930 --> 00:20:41.130 yeah, and that's that embryos are destroyed. Yeah, now, I learned 271 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:47.089 a lot as I was studying this. I thought that many, many eggs 272 00:20:47.369 --> 00:20:52.200 were collected and and then ultimately destroyed. The only used one or two and 273 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.079 then the when the woman was to be clear, the collection of the eggs 274 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.559 is not the issue. It's when the eggs are put together with a sperm 275 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.079 and conception is taken place. Right. So correct? Yes. Yes, 276 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.869 because those are the ones that are then frozen and and stored. Ultimately, 277 00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:11.309 if they're frozen, they need to be stored, and it used to be 278 00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:18.819 that doctors needed fifty sixty in order to have a seventeen percent success rate. 279 00:21:18.980 --> 00:21:22.339 So and then all the other ones were would die. They would just die. 280 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:26.940 So many were dying as a result of this process, and then many 281 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:30.660 of the stored ones were being destroyed. Yeah, that is no longer. 282 00:21:30.380 --> 00:21:34.970 In terms of collecting, that's no longer the case. The success rate is 283 00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:41.329 now about fifty percent, sometimes greater, and they only are harvesting one or 284 00:21:41.369 --> 00:21:44.490 two eggs. Yeah, for the women, because the success rate is so 285 00:21:44.529 --> 00:21:49.039 much better, so fewer embryos are dying, first of all in the process, 286 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.000 and most clinics apparently are committed to storing them as long as possil. 287 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:02.269 But the problem is that people run out of money, they don't want any 288 00:22:02.269 --> 00:22:07.150 more kids, they just stop paying for the storage. And many articles I 289 00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:10.950 read said this is kind of the elephant in the room that the IVF clinics 290 00:22:10.990 --> 00:22:14.390 don't want to talk about. What do they do with the eggs? Right, 291 00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.299 see, you know what I read that they do. They either let 292 00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:21.980 them you know, they storm as long as they can and they destroy them, 293 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:25.220 right, or, in this horrified me a bit more. Both are 294 00:22:25.299 --> 00:22:30.250 horrifying. They're used for science, right, the mother can sign them over 295 00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:34.450 for research, as these are living human beings right at the earliest stage of 296 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:38.529 development. Yes, but being used for scientific research. And then they are 297 00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:42.329 destroyed. They're not. It said, as though this gives them the out. 298 00:22:42.930 --> 00:22:48.319 They're not allowed to go on then to becoming living human being with altered 299 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.519 whatever. Right, yeah, which is the grievous thing. This is this 300 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.279 is the main concern, because if we believe life begins at conception, and 301 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:02.150 in my mind, and I think you would agree most of us who claim 302 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:06.789 to be pro life, there is no other logical point in a human beings 303 00:23:06.869 --> 00:23:11.829 existence except for the beginning of that existence, that we could say their life 304 00:23:11.950 --> 00:23:18.299 began. Right, life begins at implantation, you know, when the when 305 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:22.700 they fertilized egg, when the zygote is implanted into the mother's uterus. Okay, 306 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.980 well, that doesn't really make any sense. They're right, it must 307 00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:30.609 be life begins at conception. And again we're talking about an egg and a 308 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:37.130 sperm coming together in conception and being stored away in, you know, freezer. 309 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.490 I don't know how they store these these things, some kind of freezer, 310 00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:42.559 yeah, whatever, and then ultimately thrown into the garbage can. Yeah, 311 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:47.759 if we believe life begins a conception, we got to be against that. 312 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.960 We cannot stand for that. And if you think about it too, 313 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.589 we're really playing, in a sense, playing God. Yeah, and when 314 00:23:56.630 --> 00:24:00.430 human being step into that realm and the realm of playing God, the realm 315 00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:06.869 of creating human beings and doing tests and things like that on human beings, 316 00:24:07.390 --> 00:24:10.819 that is a dark downward spiral. A matter of fact, I would say 317 00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.140 maybe it's not a downward spiral, it's the bottom of the spiral. You 318 00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:19.579 know, when our science is using as its scientific object of scientific exploration, 319 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:25.609 human lives, that's a problem. Yeah, and we as a church, 320 00:24:25.849 --> 00:24:29.730 if we believe what the Bible says, every human being is precious. Life 321 00:24:29.730 --> 00:24:33.329 begins at conception, then we've got to oppose this thing. Yeah, yeah, 322 00:24:33.970 --> 00:24:40.079 in terms of life beginning at conception versus implantation, it was through IVF 323 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.720 research actually that I think that question was, I believe, clearly answered by 324 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.319 science. God answer said, of course, yeah, it's at the moment 325 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:53.549 of conception. But what they discovered through experimentation with these eggs and sperm as 326 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:57.509 they're being fertilized, was that there was a spark of we call it a 327 00:24:57.549 --> 00:25:03.789 spark of light. More technically it's a spark of zinc. That it. 328 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.579 It's in a phosphorescent medium. You do see a spark of light. Yeah, 329 00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:11.779 anyway, that spark of light. They discovered that the bigger that spark 330 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.779 was, the more viable the egg was. So they were able to then 331 00:25:15.819 --> 00:25:21.849 select which egg was most which fertilized egg was most likely to survive. Yeah, 332 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:25.210 and that. But, but what I'm saying is there is at that 333 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:29.650 moment that's spark of light, that spark of zinc, which shows that there 334 00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:33.970 has been fertilization. It occurs, you see it at the moment of conception 335 00:25:34.009 --> 00:25:38.279 right to me just be amazing. It is amazing. Yeah, just to 336 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:44.720 found out that cool fact and the research based on human beings being created is 337 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.839 still it's not a good thing. Yeah, and let me get let me 338 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:49.750 mention a couple. These were some I just came up with on my own 339 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:55.950 as I was thinking further along this subject. The embryos could end up being 340 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:02.829 adopted by same sex couples. Well, do we, as firm believers and 341 00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.819 the biblical arrangement for a healthy marriage in which to raise children would would that 342 00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:15.220 be okay? But that does happen. That will happen with with the discarded 343 00:26:15.259 --> 00:26:18.890 eggs, the eggs that that the mom who they were harvested from no longer 344 00:26:19.009 --> 00:26:22.369 or wants. Yeah, so that's one thing. Another thing that really bothers 345 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:26.730 me. If you think about it, human being should be treated with dignity 346 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:33.640 and respect through all their natural life, from conception to natural death. Is 347 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.799 it ethical for a living human being to be frozen and suspended their life, 348 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:47.750 suspended in a frozen state indefinitely to the end where they might be discarded if 349 00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:52.109 it's they're not wanted right at the end? Yeah, I mean, and 350 00:26:52.269 --> 00:26:55.789 who's to say, right, how long they can be frozen and still be 351 00:26:56.349 --> 00:27:00.670 like viable? Yeah, still be alive or able to live. I'm not 352 00:27:00.789 --> 00:27:03.859 sure of all of that process. Yeah, but that doesn't give me a 353 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.660 lot of like a lot of good feelings to realize that they're human beings, 354 00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:11.299 human lives that are stored away in some freezer somewhere, right. Yeah, 355 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:15.890 it kind of gives me pause just that part of it. And then one 356 00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:19.970 that we mentioned earlier on in the case of Biblical couples and infertility, it 357 00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:27.529 was never some like scientific intervention. Yeah, it was God. Yeah, 358 00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:33.799 you're changing biblically byplically, it was God who changed the infertility and if he 359 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:38.680 didn't, we assume either he had a purpose, yea or or there was 360 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.710 something that God could bring yeah. Yeah, I think another thing. You 361 00:27:45.789 --> 00:27:51.069 don't have this as an objection, but I think you would think you'd probably 362 00:27:51.069 --> 00:27:56.990 agree with me, is objectifying children, making them sort of objects. Yeah, 363 00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:03.259 and to the point where now we know that there's some push, and 364 00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:08.500 I'm I'm sure somebody in some European countries doing this where, you know, 365 00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:12.490 they're trying to figure out, okay, what makes a child be more beautiful? 366 00:28:12.609 --> 00:28:17.609 How can how can that conception process be sort of tailor to make that 367 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:23.970 child look more beautiful, be taller or have better genetics and live longer or 368 00:28:25.089 --> 00:28:27.799 whatever exactly. You know it's happening. Yeah, and so it's about actifying 369 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:36.160 human beings, right, ejectifying children to the biblical understanding of children is that 370 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.480 children are a blessing to the family. Children are to be brought into a 371 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:45.549 family with the mother and the father, raised as a blessing, not as 372 00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:49.670 a not as some object, not as some like toy. And you know, 373 00:28:51.230 --> 00:28:53.829 it's kind of like the spirit of this thing is, well, let's 374 00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:59.980 create five embryos. Two of them, yeah, we will implant and will 375 00:29:00.019 --> 00:29:02.420 have, let's say, if the others later, for yeah, maybe, 376 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:04.900 if we want another one, will have another one later. Now, I 377 00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:07.619 know I'm kind of being a little glib with it and I don't want to 378 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.849 be lighthearted, especially for people that might be listening that have been involved in 379 00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:17.289 this. But, like, we're talking about human lives, we're talking about 380 00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:22.490 human beings, we're talking about, as a society, US objectifying children and 381 00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:27.640 even conception and all these things sort of to benefit us and what we want 382 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.480 in our timing and all that stuff. Yeah, and we can go on 383 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.359 and on and talk about that and I can offend you guys all day long, 384 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.480 but at the end of the day, what what does the Bible say? 385 00:29:37.829 --> 00:29:41.750 What is true? What is what is consistent with truth? Life begins 386 00:29:41.789 --> 00:29:45.910 at conception. Every human being is precious to the Lord and we as human 387 00:29:45.950 --> 00:29:49.750 beings do not have the right to play God. Now, does that mean 388 00:29:49.869 --> 00:29:55.940 if they're IVF clinics that don't destroy embryos, that have a commitment to do 389 00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:59.980 that, or all together wrong? I mean, I think there can be 390 00:30:00.019 --> 00:30:03.259 some conversations about that. I think as long as we're not destroying human lives, 391 00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:08.329 I feel more comfortable with it. But still I do have some concerns 392 00:30:08.490 --> 00:30:12.690 of seeing children as kind of like items that you can buy and items that 393 00:30:12.769 --> 00:30:15.730 you can create in a lab, that you place on a shelf. Until 394 00:30:15.809 --> 00:30:19.049 Betty, for you say, there's just something that doesn't sit well with me. 395 00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:23.000 Yeah, yeah, for that. So you know, I do want 396 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.119 to say it. I know that both of us feel this way. We 397 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.160 mourn for those women. We know the joy and the love of children and 398 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:36.509 we definitely mourn and understand why women might feel desperate enough to do this. 399 00:30:36.789 --> 00:30:41.470 But but I do hope this podcast helps people to really explore for themselves and 400 00:30:41.589 --> 00:30:45.190 to really think about it, because we do want to remain consistent. You 401 00:30:45.230 --> 00:30:48.950 will be asked about it, I'm sure, by Oh yeah, pro abortion 402 00:30:48.069 --> 00:30:52.539 crowds or whatever, and it's good to have a sense of how you should 403 00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:57.220 answer. Yeah, absolutely. So my conclusion is this that we need to 404 00:30:57.259 --> 00:31:00.779 be biblically consistent. We need to be consistent. Life begins at conception. 405 00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:06.369 That means whether that conception happens in a test tube or whether it happens in 406 00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:11.369 a woman's uterus or whatever. Life begins at conception and we need to protect 407 00:31:11.410 --> 00:31:17.049 all lives. I do believe that we're going to have some further conversations about 408 00:31:17.089 --> 00:31:18.359 this, like if, yeah, this is the case, the what? 409 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.079 How do we act? But I do think that one thing you can take 410 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.279 away from this is like a tough started out. If you've been involved in 411 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.480 this, just bring it before the Lord Repent. I think we do need 412 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.869 to speak out when the when the subject comes up, and we need to 413 00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:34.829 we need to be informed about this thing so that, like you were on 414 00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:38.589 the plane, you weren't really like super informed about this, right. You 415 00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:42.109 didn't have enough information to really push back and say actually, there's there's some 416 00:31:44.109 --> 00:31:48.339 immortal things going on in these IVF clinics. Yeah, now you do. 417 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.980 Now you're able to push back graciously. We don't need to be bulldogs, 418 00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:53.700 like a bull in a China shop, and you need to be jerks about 419 00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:57.140 it, but we do need to stand for truth and so, more than 420 00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:02.410 anything, stand for Truth and and I believe God will honor it. So 421 00:32:04.490 --> 00:32:07.609 we'll wrap this podcast episode up. Encourage you to grab a hold of this 422 00:32:07.849 --> 00:32:12.250 article. It'll be on our sidewalks for Life Web site sidewalks, the number 423 00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:17.759 for lifecom and it's in equipping articles. So it'll be there around the time 424 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.039 when this podcast comes out, I believe. So yeah, get Ahold of 425 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.200 this article and let us know what you think. Maybe you have a unique 426 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.029 perspective in this. Maybe you can add something to this conversation that we didn't 427 00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:32.349 think of. Maybe we're completely wrong about this and you'd like to correct us. 428 00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:36.430 Heck, we'd love to have you on the podcast. I'd love to 429 00:32:36.549 --> 00:32:40.390 interview someone who's knowledgeable about this stuff and to give us more knowledge. But 430 00:32:40.670 --> 00:32:44.700 yeah, we would love to hear from you. Guys. You can reach 431 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:46.220 out to meet Daniel a love life dot org and reach out to Vicky. 432 00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:50.259 Vicky at Love Life Dot Org. We'd love to hear from you, but 433 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:58.460 until next time, God bless God, bless you all. Give our love 434 00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:09.930 for love. Give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost 435 00:33:10.049 --> 00:33:19.079 me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you