Is IVF Pro-Life?

WEBVTT100:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.160I repented before God like I did. I just didn't know. I could200:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.000have known. I mean it's myfault. I could have known. I300:00:06.080 --> 00:00:10.189could have looked into it a littlemore, but again, I just believed400:00:10.429 --> 00:00:15.029kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times, not500:00:15.189 --> 00:00:20.870a good idea. I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours,600:00:21.429 --> 00:00:27.219and me Lord, I am yours, I am yours. I'm welcome700:00:27.260 --> 00:00:32.579to the Gospel Center Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designed to equip, encourage800:00:32.740 --> 00:00:36.929and challenge you in pro life ministryand always were the focus on the Gospel.900:00:37.130 --> 00:00:48.090Stay tuned, I felt show Passish, touch your heart. Use Me.1000:00:51.399 --> 00:00:54.960Welcome back to the Gospel centered prolife podcast. Appreciate you guys joining1100:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.679us and we always encourage you guysto share this podcast episode, share this1200:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.000podcast and all of the episodes thatwe produce with your friends, family members,1300:01:03.039 --> 00:01:07.469share it on social media and,yeah, just get the word out.1400:01:07.989 --> 00:01:11.390We'd be very appreciative if you woulddo that. And the whole goal1500:01:11.430 --> 00:01:18.579of this podcast is not to promoteourselves and make ourselves feel or look important,1600:01:19.939 --> 00:01:23.739but to equip you and to challengeyou. You guys who are listening,1700:01:23.340 --> 00:01:29.579mostly folks that are listening or peoplewho are involved in sidewalk out reach1800:01:29.659 --> 00:01:33.890ministry at their local abortion center.We get a lot of interactions from people1900:01:33.969 --> 00:01:38.650and questions from people, even someencouragement from folks. I just had someone2000:01:38.769 --> 00:01:44.969text me from southern California who askedme how was the duck? How did2100:01:44.969 --> 00:01:48.840the duck taste? Oh dear.Yeah, that refers to one of our2200:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.439last podcast right. Yeah, itwas our episode where you talked about the2300:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.799hooded Marganzer Duck. Hood. Isn'tit a Gettin? Sir? Yeah,2400:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.959I don't think they quite got theimportant message from that podcast. I say2500:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.790got it. Yeah, but itwas it was funny. It was something2600:02:04.870 --> 00:02:09.789that they actually latched onto there.So I didn't eat the hooded margins are2700:02:09.949 --> 00:02:13.870nook. It's still about here,swimming in our pond not far from where2800:02:13.870 --> 00:02:16.819we're recording this podcast. Yeah,praise God. This podcast is not about2900:02:16.860 --> 00:02:23.219ducks or eating ducks or anything likethat, but it is about pro life3000:02:23.300 --> 00:02:27.419stuff in light of the Gospel,and so we hope to equip you guys3100:02:27.539 --> 00:02:30.330in this episode. That we're goingto do is maybe a little outside of3200:02:30.409 --> 00:02:36.090our wheelhouse in the sense that wemostly focus on the outreach at abortion centers3300:02:36.729 --> 00:02:39.930and and not on subjects like this. But we have done subjects like this3400:02:40.090 --> 00:02:44.919in the past. We've talked aboutbirth control, we've talked about, I3500:02:44.960 --> 00:02:50.560don't know, other things more kindof like ideological things that have to do3600:02:50.680 --> 00:02:57.960with pro life, the prolife messageand our prolife conviction and it. We've3700:02:58.039 --> 00:03:02.550never really talked about IVF. Right. What is IVF stand for in vitro3800:03:02.990 --> 00:03:07.789fertilization? Yeah, we can getinto some definitions. I think we should3900:03:07.789 --> 00:03:12.069here in just a minute. Yeah, but just like to let you guys4000:03:12.150 --> 00:03:15.379know this. We're not doctors.I'm not, you know, I'm not4100:03:15.500 --> 00:03:21.099a scientist that deals with invader fertilefertilization or anything like that. But I4200:03:21.180 --> 00:03:24.340don't think that we have to bedoctors or scientists to dig into a subject4300:03:25.060 --> 00:03:30.930and to see what the Scripture saysabout that subject and to see our convictions.4400:03:30.969 --> 00:03:38.289Are Our convictions in line with therepercussions in the things that surround this4500:03:38.409 --> 00:03:44.719subject? So we're going to talkabout in vitro fertilization and our goal is4600:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.280not to offend you. If thereare people that are out there that have4700:03:49.879 --> 00:03:53.919been involved in IVF and some wayshape or form. Our goal is not4800:03:53.000 --> 00:03:59.509to offend you, but we're notapologetic either. I'm not going going to4900:03:59.629 --> 00:04:03.270apologize for the truths that we share. And if you're offended, maybe that5000:04:03.430 --> 00:04:10.259offense is conviction that you need torepent, and so if that's the case,5100:04:10.900 --> 00:04:13.580then repent. You don't need torepent to me, repent to Jesus.5200:04:14.500 --> 00:04:18.339But I think this will be,more than anything, informative for you5300:04:18.459 --> 00:04:21.939guys that are listening. It probablyfor many of you will be a brand5400:04:23.019 --> 00:04:26.170new subject, something not even onyour radar. For some of you guys5500:04:26.250 --> 00:04:28.930that who've been in this, thisbattle for a long time, we're going5600:04:28.930 --> 00:04:31.410to tell you stuff you already knowand you could probably add some more to5700:04:31.529 --> 00:04:34.850this conversation and teach us something.So we're not going to pretend to be5800:04:34.970 --> 00:04:39.439experts on this, but again,we are going to be consistent with what5900:04:39.519 --> 00:04:44.360the Bible says and with our convictionsthat life begins at conception. So with6000:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.120that, let's jump into a Vickydefine what we're talking about when we're talking6100:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.829about IVF or in Vito fertilization.Yeah, okay, so this is import6200:04:53.910 --> 00:04:57.269or in vitro. So it betrue, and this, this is for6300:04:57.709 --> 00:05:03.069infertile couples, couples who cannot naturallyconceive a child, okay, for whatever6400:05:03.189 --> 00:05:11.899reason. So this process is onein which sperm and over them, the6500:05:12.220 --> 00:05:15.540egg of the woman the sperm ofthe man are collected combined. Yeah,6600:05:15.660 --> 00:05:21.529and the egg is fertilized outside ofthe woman's body and then replaced into the6700:05:21.610 --> 00:05:29.050womb, right, and and hopefullythen the pregnancy will proceed normally from that6800:05:29.209 --> 00:05:35.720point. Yeah, sometimes the eggis the fertilized egg is implanted immediately into6900:05:35.759 --> 00:05:43.040the womb. Sometimes it it isn'timmediate, in which case that egg is7000:05:43.199 --> 00:05:48.879frozen. Yeah, and some people, especially in the past, would collect7100:05:49.000 --> 00:05:55.470many, many eggs and and havemany frozen. kind of has a safe7200:05:55.829 --> 00:06:00.949safety net. Yeah, so,which causes all kinds of problems which we're7300:06:00.990 --> 00:06:04.060going to be talking about. Yeah. So essentially, the term that used7400:06:04.060 --> 00:06:08.100to be used, or a termthat you heard, you know, when7500:06:08.100 --> 00:06:10.740I was a kid, was testtube babies, right. Ever heard of7600:06:10.819 --> 00:06:13.899that? Yes, and it's kindof that constant right. Yeah, the7700:06:14.019 --> 00:06:18.449child is conceived in a laboratory,sperm and egg come together at that point7800:06:19.610 --> 00:06:25.930that's a Zygoat and embryo, whatevertechnical term. But we would believe,7900:06:26.329 --> 00:06:30.170and I think it's consistent with theScripture and consistent with what we've said on8000:06:30.250 --> 00:06:32.680this podcast all along, that lifebegins at conception, right, and that8100:06:32.800 --> 00:06:39.319when that egg and that sperm cometogether in that process called conception, a8200:06:40.120 --> 00:06:45.040unique life is created. Right,a unique human being has been created,8300:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.670and it's at the earliest stage thathuman beings development. So the reason that8400:06:49.110 --> 00:06:54.189this came on our radar was actuallywe were on an airplane traveling to a8500:06:54.310 --> 00:06:59.509conference and and a young lady whohad had IVF sat down with one of8600:06:59.589 --> 00:07:02.819our team members and started talking aboutIVF, and then they came over to8700:07:02.860 --> 00:07:06.420talk to me because he had neverreally thought, I guess, a lot8800:07:06.540 --> 00:07:11.939about what she was saying. Shewas supporting it from a Christian world view.8900:07:12.019 --> 00:07:15.290Yeah, which right away I struggledwith. Right, I had not9000:07:15.449 --> 00:07:19.250thought a lot about it honestly,until it but I knew I needed to9100:07:19.290 --> 00:07:23.689do some research. I just feelit's important we can talk. We we9200:07:23.730 --> 00:07:28.850should be consistent as pro life people. We should be consistent in our biblical9300:07:28.930 --> 00:07:32.439and practical stance in all areas well, in all areas, but certainly in9400:07:32.519 --> 00:07:39.360all areas that that are pro life, areas which this is so what I9500:07:39.480 --> 00:07:43.959did is I pulled out, Iread many articles, but one of them,9600:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.790which we cite on an article thatI wrote then, which is a9700:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.550summary of some of the research thatI found. Okay, and we I9800:07:50.670 --> 00:07:54.470cite that article so that you cango read this Article Yourself, and I9900:07:54.589 --> 00:07:58.740recommend that, at the very least, following this podcast, that everybody do10000:07:58.899 --> 00:08:03.779that, read some of these articleswe cite to come to your own conclusion.10100:08:03.980 --> 00:08:07.339And what we're going to do inthis podcast is kind of present the10200:08:07.459 --> 00:08:11.139facts as we uncover them, andthen we're going to give a conclusion at10300:08:11.139 --> 00:08:16.529the end that we think the evidencepoints us to from a biblical perspective.10400:08:16.689 --> 00:08:20.730And also, you know, likeI started out, if there's some repenting10500:08:20.850 --> 00:08:24.050that needs to take place, andthat's that's what you need to do before10600:08:24.050 --> 00:08:31.919the Lord, and don't let yourfeelings and don't let your experiences take you10700:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.000away from it. What's actually true. Let's say that you have a child10800:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.029that was conceived in IVF was theprocess by which you have that child?10900:08:43.830 --> 00:08:48.509That child is human being loved byGod, right life, your son,11000:08:48.629 --> 00:08:54.750your daughter, absolutely, and eventhough maybe if, as we shine some11100:08:54.830 --> 00:08:58.059light on this, you start torealize this was not the best thing for11200:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.019me to have been involved in.Doesn't devalue that child and it doesn't make11300:09:01.100 --> 00:09:07.059you a horrible mother or father orwhatever. We don't know what we don't11400:09:07.100 --> 00:09:11.450know. Yeah, you know,I'll share my story real quick, not11500:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.929about IVF, but about birth control. We talked about birth control in the11600:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.570past and there are some forms ofbirth control that are not a board of11700:09:18.649 --> 00:09:24.519facient and there's some that are,and in the early stages of our marriage11800:09:24.720 --> 00:09:26.519we use some of the ones thatwere. Yeah, and I just I11900:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.879didn't know I was doing what youdo right. You have two kids and12000:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.200use birth control, and I feltthat's the way that certainly was an aortized12100:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.029that, yeah, that that wasactually could be in a bard up board12200:09:39.070 --> 00:09:43.110offacient. Yeah, and so Iactually was exposed to cut like the truth12300:09:43.149 --> 00:09:48.669about birth control and and what itcould potentially do through focus on the family.12400:09:48.710 --> 00:09:52.779They actually had a an episode,yeah, and a guys sharing about12500:09:52.820 --> 00:09:58.019this and I repented before God likeI did. Just didn't know. I12600:09:58.100 --> 00:10:01.019could have known. I mean it'smy fault. I could have known.12700:10:01.059 --> 00:10:03.700I could have looked into it alittle more, but again, I just12800:10:03.899 --> 00:10:09.129believed kind of what everybody else wasdoing, which is not often times not12900:10:09.289 --> 00:10:13.169a good idea. A long storyshort, we have eight kids now and13000:10:13.450 --> 00:10:18.330obviously we we've come to know takena different path, taken a different path,13100:10:18.769 --> 00:10:22.200but I will say that I didrepent before God. There was a13200:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.200point in which I remember all myknees weeping before the Lord saying God,13300:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.840I'm sorry. Now, I don'tknow in that process of my wife taking13400:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.549the birth control, if babies wereaborted from her body because of the effects13500:10:37.590 --> 00:10:41.389of that stuff. I don't know. Yeah, and so I can't repent13600:10:41.429 --> 00:10:45.870specifically and say I'm sorry, butI'm sorry that even open the door for13700:10:45.950 --> 00:10:50.700this. I'm sorry that that's evena potential right. So that's my experience13800:10:50.740 --> 00:10:54.059with with birth control and I thinkit can be pretty similar to this.13900:10:54.259 --> 00:10:58.620Actually, there are people that arelistening that have been involved in IVF that14000:10:58.860 --> 00:11:01.700you need to repent before God.Yeah, God's Merciful, God's kind.14100:11:03.539 --> 00:11:07.210The Lord is gracious and Compassionate,slow to anger and rich and loving kindness.14200:11:07.610 --> 00:11:09.370But if we just try to takeour sin and we come to the14300:11:09.490 --> 00:11:13.730knowledge of the truth and we tryto just hide that in darkness, the14400:11:13.769 --> 00:11:16.409Bible says that if we hide itin darkness, we're not we're not going14500:11:16.450 --> 00:11:20.159to get the freeiveness of sin,but if we bring it to the light,14600:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.600as he is in the lights.Is a first John Chapter one that14700:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.639we have fellowship with one another inthe blood of Jesus Christ, his son,14800:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.039cleanses us from all sins. Sobring your sin to the light.14900:11:28.559 --> 00:11:33.590Acknowledge before God doesn't necessarily mean youneed to confess it before your whole church.15000:11:33.669 --> 00:11:35.309Maybe you do. I don't know. However, the Lord leads you,15100:11:35.389 --> 00:11:39.710but definitely, if God's convicting youin this, repent and know that15200:11:39.750 --> 00:11:45.309he's gracious. Now I would saythat Daniel Parks has given away his conclusion15300:11:46.190 --> 00:11:48.740anyway, of where this is leadingus. Yeah, but I will say15400:11:48.820 --> 00:11:52.580that when I the first article Iread in the first one I sight.15500:11:52.940 --> 00:11:56.700So it'll be interesting for us tostart with that. That was one that15600:11:56.820 --> 00:12:03.330came to the conclusion that IVF incertain circumstances was at the cull for a15700:12:03.370 --> 00:12:07.490Christian. Yeah, so it'll be. So one of the their first points15800:12:07.889 --> 00:12:09.889is, and they they approached itfrom a biblical perspective. All right,15900:12:11.210 --> 00:12:15.090overcoming fertility is pleasing to God.That was their first point. Go over16000:12:15.210 --> 00:12:18.799and and you know there's countless examplesin the Bible. Abraham and Sarah,16100:12:18.840 --> 00:12:24.919Jacob and Rachel's that Ryan Elizabeth areall couples that were infertile and and God16200:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.120changed that. I do think that'skey and the author did not bring that16300:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.549up. The author did not bringthe point up that it was God that16400:12:33.710 --> 00:12:39.669brought about the change in those couplesin fertility. A child was miraculously conceived16500:12:39.070 --> 00:12:45.740through God's yeah, intervention. Wells, there's some passages and I know maybe16600:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.539you're not going there, but Iwill say they're several passages where it talks16700:12:48.580 --> 00:12:54.580about the Lord Closes, closed Sarah'swomb, Lord closed Ragel Rachel's Womb.16800:12:54.940 --> 00:12:58.370I believe in there's some other passagesto talk about other women that God closed16900:12:58.490 --> 00:13:03.409her womb, and so you knowthere's that to God opens and closes the17000:13:03.490 --> 00:13:07.250womb. So God has a hasa purpose in infertility. Cruel. I17100:13:07.370 --> 00:13:13.279think that that's one of the hardestpoints for me and in discussing this topic,17200:13:13.159 --> 00:13:18.000I can't I have children. Ididn't have I didn't struggle with in17300:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.879fertility. Yeah, but I knowI wanted a third child when my husband17400:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.240did not, and I remember duringthat time period the pain of that,17500:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.549yeah, of feeling I'm not goingto have a child that I so desperately17600:13:28.669 --> 00:13:33.149wanted. So, you know,from an emotional perspective I get it.17700:13:33.629 --> 00:13:39.389I get why these women do butbut anyway, the and and so this17800:13:39.590 --> 00:13:41.980article said, yes, but fertilityis clearly pleasing to God. Yeah,17900:13:43.019 --> 00:13:46.019although he does close some women's wombs. But yeah, but I mean I18000:13:46.059 --> 00:13:50.259don't think theologically we can dive intoall of that because obviously there are things18100:13:50.299 --> 00:13:54.100that are a result of the fall. Like I don't believe just because someone18200:13:54.139 --> 00:13:58.289can't conceive a child that that necessarilymeans that God has closed their womb.18300:13:58.330 --> 00:14:01.409Right. It could be other thingsgoing on that could be remedied. Bah,18400:14:01.850 --> 00:14:07.529you know, maybe things like IVFdone in a moral, a morally18500:14:07.730 --> 00:14:09.960acceptable way, which will dig into. Yeah, yeah, but yeah,18600:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.840just want to miss that. Yeah, there are things that a result of18700:14:13.840 --> 00:14:16.039the fall that we just we don'tknow what, we don't really good point18800:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.159and it's made a little bit lateron in this article. So keep that18900:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.120in your mind for when we hitthere, because that's a really, really19000:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.269important point. But the second onethat the author points out is that modern19100:14:26.309 --> 00:14:31.509medicine is a blessing and good inmost cases, not all cases, but19200:14:31.629 --> 00:14:33.629it most so. He said.We you know, in the same way19300:14:33.789 --> 00:14:37.980that you'll take an aspirin for aheadache, right well, that you're doing19400:14:39.139 --> 00:14:43.700something that is that is not technicallynatural, but it's made from the natural19500:14:43.740 --> 00:14:48.100resources and ingenuity that God has givenus, and that's the the author makes19600:14:48.139 --> 00:14:52.370the point that's the same with IVF. Okay, it's the ingenuity of the19700:14:52.450 --> 00:14:58.649scientist and you're taking what is natural, that egg and sperm coming to together,19800:14:58.690 --> 00:15:03.730and you're just kind of helping themalong in the using modern medicine for19900:15:03.809 --> 00:15:05.929a good purpose. It's not foran evil purpose. At least that's I20000:15:05.970 --> 00:15:11.120mean they're cante respect on that justa bit. Whereas in a headache we're20100:15:11.159 --> 00:15:20.600talking about alleviating a person's pain,in IVF and creating a child in the20200:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.950test whom you're literally creating a wholeother life. That, and that was20300:15:24.070 --> 00:15:28.830my major gut feeling as I wastalking to that woman, was this is20400:15:28.990 --> 00:15:37.100a whole different level of intervention.The principles and the thought maybe sort of20500:15:37.139 --> 00:15:41.940the things the same as we're talkingabout modern medicine, right, but yeah,20600:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.179yeah, we're talking about the creationire label of rights, of modern20700:15:46.220 --> 00:15:50.210rights, and that was exactly ahuman life. I agree. This is20800:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.049exactly where my moment went. Icouldn't always articulate it because I hadn't really20900:15:54.169 --> 00:15:58.529ever thought about it really much.But but yeah, so that's a really21000:15:58.570 --> 00:16:02.330good point. The third point thatthe author made was that they he the21100:16:02.370 --> 00:16:04.360unborn child is human from conception.Of course, we all know that.21200:16:04.600 --> 00:16:11.240that. We know that that thatis supported by scripture, and the reason21300:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.399that the author brings that up isto point out that anything that destroys,21400:16:15.720 --> 00:16:22.029even from the earliest moment of conception, a human life, that that would21500:16:22.029 --> 00:16:26.350be wrong. So's he's he's buildinga case for why IVF is okay,21600:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.860but does want to approach a biblically. So the unborn life. We agree21700:16:32.860 --> 00:16:36.139with that. Yes, the unbornlife is human from the moment of conception.21800:16:36.179 --> 00:16:40.980Yeah, so that little fertilized ovumegg in the embryo in the Petrie21900:16:41.019 --> 00:16:44.740dish is a little human being that'sabout to be implanted in the womb.22000:16:45.019 --> 00:16:49.250The fourth point he made was thatchildren should only be conceived by, and22100:16:49.570 --> 00:16:53.889born to married men and women.Yeah, and that's the precedent set up22200:16:53.889 --> 00:16:56.690in the garden of Eden, rightwith Adam and eve. So we would22300:16:56.690 --> 00:17:00.639agree on that point. To biblically, he's he's sound in that. So22400:17:00.759 --> 00:17:07.000he's saying again this is this isan article that says VF can be morally22500:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.599okay, it can be. He'slong as within these parameters, that's kind22600:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.309of what he's building. He's exactlyhe's building the points within these parameters it22700:17:17.109 --> 00:17:18.509can be okay. And then he'sgoing to going to go on to tell22800:17:18.549 --> 00:17:22.829us, when those parameters exist,where you find clinits with those parameters.22900:17:23.190 --> 00:17:27.750And then so his conclusion, althoughhe does go into some objections, which23000:17:27.789 --> 00:17:32.740will go into next, but hisconclusion was therefore it is morally good and23100:17:32.980 --> 00:17:37.059in some cases, and he laidit right out, it's good if the23200:17:37.339 --> 00:17:42.420embryos are not destroyed. No embryosdestroyed in the process. It overcomes infertility,23300:17:42.460 --> 00:17:47.690which he says was God's original plan. He also said from the fall23400:17:48.809 --> 00:17:52.250infertility was not the plan right inthe garden of Eden. That was the23500:17:52.369 --> 00:17:55.529result of the fall, right,and and that the blessing of the children23600:17:55.650 --> 00:18:00.200is brought to a married man andwoman. If, if I VF achieves23700:18:00.279 --> 00:18:06.559those three major goals, then it'sokay, that's good. That's where where23800:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.880he ended. Now it's objections,and it wasn't his objections. He said23900:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.869this is what other people sit andI read a few articles that were actually24000:18:12.910 --> 00:18:17.670on that side. Okay, ofthis discussion. So the first one is24100:18:17.750 --> 00:18:22.150that it's not a natural process asGod intended. Conception. Yeah, which24200:18:22.150 --> 00:18:25.670is obvious. No, it's not. Yeah, of course not, but24300:18:25.750 --> 00:18:33.299it is. It is, it'shelping a natural process. And and again24400:18:33.380 --> 00:18:37.099the people that excuse this objection asthis is not about objection, will say,24500:18:37.099 --> 00:18:41.130yeah, but there are other medicalinterventions, many that are not natural24600:18:41.210 --> 00:18:45.009processes. Yeah, but we spiedthem. Yeah, we still do them.24700:18:45.250 --> 00:18:49.890Yes, sure, I mean dyingis the natural process. If someone's24800:18:49.930 --> 00:18:55.839having a heart attack and you know, just let the natural process carry through,24900:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.559we would not use the defibrillator anything. Right, correct. But again,25000:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.319we're talking can kind of next level. We're not just talking about saving25100:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.599a life, we're talking about literallycreating a whole another, whole other life.25200:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.029Back to your dying thing. WhenI was thinking through all of this,25300:19:10.150 --> 00:19:12.549I thought, okay, what wouldbe the that accurate parallel, though,25400:19:12.789 --> 00:19:19.109with dying would be if you killedsomeone because they might die. To25500:19:19.230 --> 00:19:22.990me, that's again the same thingthat you are you are taking a role25600:19:23.150 --> 00:19:26.940that belongs to God. Yeah,that's, I think, where we both25700:19:26.980 --> 00:19:32.859kind of are struggling with this isthis seems like it's God's role, not25800:19:33.019 --> 00:19:38.890ours. Yeah. So the secondobjection is that sex and conception are wrongly25900:19:40.529 --> 00:19:44.410separated. Yeah, this goes backto what you were saying earlier. At26000:19:44.490 --> 00:19:52.809the fall there was no infertility.And what the the author that that counters26100:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.440this objection says, yes, theyare separated in the case of IVF,26200:19:56.839 --> 00:20:03.519but it isn't so much IDF thatseparates them. It's the fall that separated26300:20:03.640 --> 00:20:10.910them. The fall separated. Forinfertile couples, that's not what God intended.26400:20:11.589 --> 00:20:15.750It's the fall that is separated,the act of sex with with right,26500:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.789with conception. I thought that wasan interesting yeah, because conception doesn't26600:20:18.789 --> 00:20:23.779always happen. When I married coupleas sex right right, and then for26700:20:23.900 --> 00:20:27.579infertile couples it never happens. Butthat's not what God intended. It is26800:20:27.619 --> 00:20:33.220the argument here is what is forI think, US, the most compelling26900:20:33.259 --> 00:20:36.690right objection. This is the mazingthe third one. Yeah, yeah,27000:20:36.930 --> 00:20:41.130yeah, and that's that embryos aredestroyed. Yeah, now, I learned27100:20:41.170 --> 00:20:47.089a lot as I was studying this. I thought that many, many eggs27200:20:47.369 --> 00:20:52.200were collected and and then ultimately destroyed. The only used one or two and27300:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.079then the when the woman was tobe clear, the collection of the eggs27400:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.559is not the issue. It's whenthe eggs are put together with a sperm27500:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.079and conception is taken place. Right. So correct? Yes. Yes,27600:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.869because those are the ones that arethen frozen and and stored. Ultimately,27700:21:07.910 --> 00:21:11.309if they're frozen, they need tobe stored, and it used to be27800:21:11.549 --> 00:21:18.819that doctors needed fifty sixty in orderto have a seventeen percent success rate.27900:21:18.980 --> 00:21:22.339So and then all the other oneswere would die. They would just die.28000:21:22.779 --> 00:21:26.940So many were dying as a resultof this process, and then many28100:21:26.980 --> 00:21:30.660of the stored ones were being destroyed. Yeah, that is no longer.28200:21:30.380 --> 00:21:34.970In terms of collecting, that's nolonger the case. The success rate is28300:21:36.089 --> 00:21:41.329now about fifty percent, sometimes greater, and they only are harvesting one or28400:21:41.369 --> 00:21:44.490two eggs. Yeah, for thewomen, because the success rate is so28500:21:44.529 --> 00:21:49.039much better, so fewer embryos aredying, first of all in the process,28600:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.000and most clinics apparently are committed tostoring them as long as possil.28700:21:56.759 --> 00:22:02.269But the problem is that people runout of money, they don't want any28800:22:02.269 --> 00:22:07.150more kids, they just stop payingfor the storage. And many articles I28900:22:07.309 --> 00:22:10.950read said this is kind of theelephant in the room that the IVF clinics29000:22:10.990 --> 00:22:14.390don't want to talk about. Whatdo they do with the eggs? Right,29100:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.299see, you know what I readthat they do. They either let29200:22:17.380 --> 00:22:21.980them you know, they storm aslong as they can and they destroy them,29300:22:22.019 --> 00:22:25.220right, or, in this horrifiedme a bit more. Both are29400:22:25.299 --> 00:22:30.250horrifying. They're used for science,right, the mother can sign them over29500:22:30.490 --> 00:22:34.450for research, as these are livinghuman beings right at the earliest stage of29600:22:34.529 --> 00:22:38.529development. Yes, but being usedfor scientific research. And then they are29700:22:38.730 --> 00:22:42.329destroyed. They're not. It said, as though this gives them the out.29800:22:42.930 --> 00:22:48.319They're not allowed to go on thento becoming living human being with altered29900:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.519whatever. Right, yeah, whichis the grievous thing. This is this30000:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.279is the main concern, because ifwe believe life begins at conception, and30100:22:57.480 --> 00:23:02.150in my mind, and I thinkyou would agree most of us who claim30200:23:02.230 --> 00:23:06.789to be pro life, there isno other logical point in a human beings30300:23:06.869 --> 00:23:11.829existence except for the beginning of thatexistence, that we could say their life30400:23:11.950 --> 00:23:18.299began. Right, life begins atimplantation, you know, when the when30500:23:18.380 --> 00:23:22.700they fertilized egg, when the zygoteis implanted into the mother's uterus. Okay,30600:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.980well, that doesn't really make anysense. They're right, it must30700:23:26.980 --> 00:23:30.609be life begins at conception. Andagain we're talking about an egg and a30800:23:30.650 --> 00:23:37.130sperm coming together in conception and beingstored away in, you know, freezer.30900:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.490I don't know how they store thesethese things, some kind of freezer,31000:23:40.529 --> 00:23:42.559yeah, whatever, and then ultimatelythrown into the garbage can. Yeah,31100:23:42.759 --> 00:23:47.759if we believe life begins a conception, we got to be against that.31200:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.960We cannot stand for that. Andif you think about it too,31300:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.589we're really playing, in a sense, playing God. Yeah, and when31400:23:56.630 --> 00:24:00.430human being step into that realm andthe realm of playing God, the realm31500:24:00.509 --> 00:24:06.869of creating human beings and doing testsand things like that on human beings,31600:24:07.390 --> 00:24:10.819that is a dark downward spiral.A matter of fact, I would say31700:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.140maybe it's not a downward spiral,it's the bottom of the spiral. You31800:24:14.220 --> 00:24:19.579know, when our science is usingas its scientific object of scientific exploration,31900:24:19.660 --> 00:24:25.609human lives, that's a problem.Yeah, and we as a church,32000:24:25.849 --> 00:24:29.730if we believe what the Bible says, every human being is precious. Life32100:24:29.730 --> 00:24:33.329begins at conception, then we've gotto oppose this thing. Yeah, yeah,32200:24:33.970 --> 00:24:40.079in terms of life beginning at conceptionversus implantation, it was through IVF32300:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.720research actually that I think that questionwas, I believe, clearly answered by32400:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.319science. God answer said, ofcourse, yeah, it's at the moment32500:24:47.359 --> 00:24:53.549of conception. But what they discoveredthrough experimentation with these eggs and sperm as32600:24:53.670 --> 00:24:57.509they're being fertilized, was that therewas a spark of we call it a32700:24:57.549 --> 00:25:03.789spark of light. More technically it'sa spark of zinc. That it.32800:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.579It's in a phosphorescent medium. Youdo see a spark of light. Yeah,32900:25:07.700 --> 00:25:11.779anyway, that spark of light.They discovered that the bigger that spark33000:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.779was, the more viable the eggwas. So they were able to then33100:25:15.819 --> 00:25:21.849select which egg was most which fertilizedegg was most likely to survive. Yeah,33200:25:21.890 --> 00:25:25.210and that. But, but whatI'm saying is there is at that33300:25:25.609 --> 00:25:29.650moment that's spark of light, thatspark of zinc, which shows that there33400:25:29.730 --> 00:25:33.970has been fertilization. It occurs,you see it at the moment of conception33500:25:34.009 --> 00:25:38.279right to me just be amazing.It is amazing. Yeah, just to33600:25:38.319 --> 00:25:44.720found out that cool fact and theresearch based on human beings being created is33700:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.839still it's not a good thing.Yeah, and let me get let me33800:25:47.880 --> 00:25:49.750mention a couple. These were someI just came up with on my own33900:25:49.789 --> 00:25:55.950as I was thinking further along thissubject. The embryos could end up being34000:25:55.990 --> 00:26:02.829adopted by same sex couples. Well, do we, as firm believers and34100:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.819the biblical arrangement for a healthy marriagein which to raise children would would that34200:26:07.900 --> 00:26:15.220be okay? But that does happen. That will happen with with the discarded34300:26:15.259 --> 00:26:18.890eggs, the eggs that that themom who they were harvested from no longer34400:26:19.009 --> 00:26:22.369or wants. Yeah, so that'sone thing. Another thing that really bothers34500:26:22.410 --> 00:26:26.730me. If you think about it, human being should be treated with dignity34600:26:26.809 --> 00:26:33.640and respect through all their natural life, from conception to natural death. Is34700:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.799it ethical for a living human beingto be frozen and suspended their life,34800:26:38.960 --> 00:26:47.750suspended in a frozen state indefinitely tothe end where they might be discarded if34900:26:47.829 --> 00:26:52.109it's they're not wanted right at theend? Yeah, I mean, and35000:26:52.269 --> 00:26:55.789who's to say, right, howlong they can be frozen and still be35100:26:56.349 --> 00:27:00.670like viable? Yeah, still bealive or able to live. I'm not35200:27:00.789 --> 00:27:03.859sure of all of that process.Yeah, but that doesn't give me a35300:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.660lot of like a lot of goodfeelings to realize that they're human beings,35400:27:07.700 --> 00:27:11.299human lives that are stored away insome freezer somewhere, right. Yeah,35500:27:11.500 --> 00:27:15.890it kind of gives me pause justthat part of it. And then one35600:27:15.970 --> 00:27:19.970that we mentioned earlier on in thecase of Biblical couples and infertility, it35700:27:21.130 --> 00:27:27.529was never some like scientific intervention.Yeah, it was God. Yeah,35800:27:27.650 --> 00:27:33.799you're changing biblically byplically, it wasGod who changed the infertility and if he35900:27:33.920 --> 00:27:38.680didn't, we assume either he hada purpose, yea or or there was36000:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.710something that God could bring yeah.Yeah, I think another thing. You36100:27:45.789 --> 00:27:51.069don't have this as an objection,but I think you would think you'd probably36200:27:51.069 --> 00:27:56.990agree with me, is objectifying children, making them sort of objects. Yeah,36300:27:57.660 --> 00:28:03.259and to the point where now weknow that there's some push, and36400:28:03.299 --> 00:28:08.500I'm I'm sure somebody in some Europeancountries doing this where, you know,36500:28:08.539 --> 00:28:12.490they're trying to figure out, okay, what makes a child be more beautiful?36600:28:12.609 --> 00:28:17.609How can how can that conception processbe sort of tailor to make that36700:28:17.730 --> 00:28:23.970child look more beautiful, be talleror have better genetics and live longer or36800:28:25.089 --> 00:28:27.799whatever exactly. You know it's happening. Yeah, and so it's about actifying36900:28:27.880 --> 00:28:36.160human beings, right, ejectifying childrento the biblical understanding of children is that37000:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.480children are a blessing to the family. Children are to be brought into a37100:28:40.599 --> 00:28:45.549family with the mother and the father, raised as a blessing, not as37200:28:45.630 --> 00:28:49.670a not as some object, notas some like toy. And you know,37300:28:51.230 --> 00:28:53.829it's kind of like the spirit ofthis thing is, well, let's37400:28:53.910 --> 00:28:59.980create five embryos. Two of them, yeah, we will implant and will37500:29:00.019 --> 00:29:02.420have, let's say, if theothers later, for yeah, maybe,37600:29:02.460 --> 00:29:04.900if we want another one, willhave another one later. Now, I37700:29:06.259 --> 00:29:07.619know I'm kind of being a littleglib with it and I don't want to37800:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.849be lighthearted, especially for people thatmight be listening that have been involved in37900:29:11.970 --> 00:29:17.289this. But, like, we'retalking about human lives, we're talking about38000:29:17.289 --> 00:29:22.490human beings, we're talking about,as a society, US objectifying children and38100:29:22.769 --> 00:29:27.640even conception and all these things sortof to benefit us and what we want38200:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.480in our timing and all that stuff. Yeah, and we can go on38300:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.359and on and talk about that andI can offend you guys all day long,38400:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.480but at the end of the day, what what does the Bible say?38500:29:37.829 --> 00:29:41.750What is true? What is whatis consistent with truth? Life begins38600:29:41.789 --> 00:29:45.910at conception. Every human being isprecious to the Lord and we as human38700:29:45.950 --> 00:29:49.750beings do not have the right toplay God. Now, does that mean38800:29:49.869 --> 00:29:55.940if they're IVF clinics that don't destroyembryos, that have a commitment to do38900:29:56.180 --> 00:29:59.980that, or all together wrong?I mean, I think there can be39000:30:00.019 --> 00:30:03.259some conversations about that. I thinkas long as we're not destroying human lives,39100:30:03.299 --> 00:30:08.329I feel more comfortable with it.But still I do have some concerns39200:30:08.490 --> 00:30:12.690of seeing children as kind of likeitems that you can buy and items that39300:30:12.769 --> 00:30:15.730you can create in a lab,that you place on a shelf. Until39400:30:15.809 --> 00:30:19.049Betty, for you say, there'sjust something that doesn't sit well with me.39500:30:19.170 --> 00:30:23.000Yeah, yeah, for that.So you know, I do want39600:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.119to say it. I know thatboth of us feel this way. We39700:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.160mourn for those women. We knowthe joy and the love of children and39800:30:30.359 --> 00:30:36.509we definitely mourn and understand why womenmight feel desperate enough to do this.39900:30:36.789 --> 00:30:41.470But but I do hope this podcasthelps people to really explore for themselves and40000:30:41.589 --> 00:30:45.190to really think about it, becausewe do want to remain consistent. You40100:30:45.230 --> 00:30:48.950will be asked about it, I'msure, by Oh yeah, pro abortion40200:30:48.069 --> 00:30:52.539crowds or whatever, and it's goodto have a sense of how you should40300:30:52.539 --> 00:30:57.220answer. Yeah, absolutely. Somy conclusion is this that we need to40400:30:57.259 --> 00:31:00.779be biblically consistent. We need tobe consistent. Life begins at conception.40500:31:02.380 --> 00:31:06.369That means whether that conception happens ina test tube or whether it happens in40600:31:06.450 --> 00:31:11.369a woman's uterus or whatever. Lifebegins at conception and we need to protect40700:31:11.410 --> 00:31:17.049all lives. I do believe thatwe're going to have some further conversations about40800:31:17.089 --> 00:31:18.359this, like if, yeah,this is the case, the what?40900:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.079How do we act? But Ido think that one thing you can take41000:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.279away from this is like a toughstarted out. If you've been involved in41100:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.480this, just bring it before theLord Repent. I think we do need41200:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.869to speak out when the when thesubject comes up, and we need to41300:31:33.390 --> 00:31:34.829we need to be informed about thisthing so that, like you were on41400:31:34.910 --> 00:31:38.589the plane, you weren't really likesuper informed about this, right. You41500:31:38.630 --> 00:31:42.109didn't have enough information to really pushback and say actually, there's there's some41600:31:44.109 --> 00:31:48.339immortal things going on in these IVFclinics. Yeah, now you do.41700:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.980Now you're able to push back graciously. We don't need to be bulldogs,41800:31:52.059 --> 00:31:53.700like a bull in a China shop, and you need to be jerks about41900:31:53.700 --> 00:31:57.140it, but we do need tostand for truth and so, more than42000:31:57.180 --> 00:32:02.410anything, stand for Truth and andI believe God will honor it. So42100:32:04.490 --> 00:32:07.609we'll wrap this podcast episode up.Encourage you to grab a hold of this42200:32:07.849 --> 00:32:12.250article. It'll be on our sidewalksfor Life Web site sidewalks, the number42300:32:12.250 --> 00:32:17.759for lifecom and it's in equipping articles. So it'll be there around the time42400:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.039when this podcast comes out, Ibelieve. So yeah, get Ahold of42500:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.200this article and let us know whatyou think. Maybe you have a unique42600:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.029perspective in this. Maybe you canadd something to this conversation that we didn't42700:32:30.029 --> 00:32:32.349think of. Maybe we're completely wrongabout this and you'd like to correct us.42800:32:32.950 --> 00:32:36.430Heck, we'd love to have youon the podcast. I'd love to42900:32:36.549 --> 00:32:40.390interview someone who's knowledgeable about this stuffand to give us more knowledge. But43000:32:40.670 --> 00:32:44.700yeah, we would love to hearfrom you. Guys. You can reach43100:32:44.700 --> 00:32:46.220out to meet Daniel a love lifedot org and reach out to Vicky.43200:32:46.299 --> 00:32:50.259Vicky at Love Life Dot Org.We'd love to hear from you, but43300:32:50.339 --> 00:32:58.460until next time, God bless God, bless you all. Give our love43400:32:58.650 --> 00:33:09.930for love. Give me our lovefor gratitude. I know it will cost43500:33:10.049 --> 00:33:19.079me my life. Nothing's too preciousin some you