Is IVF Pro-Life?

0:00 I repented before God like I did. I just didn't know. I could have known. I mean it's my fault. I could have known. I could have looked into it a little more, but again, I just believed kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times, not a good idea. I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me Lord, I am yours, I am yours. I'm welcome to the Gospel Center Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designed to equip, encourage and challenge you in pro life ministry and always were the focus on the Gospel. Stay tuned, I felt show Passish, touch your heart. Use Me.

0:51 Welcome back to the Gospel centered pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys joining us and we always encourage you guys to share this podcast episode, share this podcast and all of the episodes that we produce with your friends, family members, share it on social media and, yeah, just get the word out. We'd be very appreciative if you would do that. And the whole goal of this podcast is not to promote ourselves and make ourselves feel or look important, but to equip you and to challenge you. You guys who are listening, mostly folks that are listening or people who are involved in sidewalk out reach ministry at their local abortion center. We get a lot of interactions from people and questions from people, even some encouragement from folks. I just had someone text me from southern California who asked me how was the duck? How did the duck taste? Oh dear. Yeah, that refers to one of our last podcast right. Yeah, it was our episode where you talked about the hooded Marganzer Duck. Hood. Isn't it a Gettin? Sir? Yeah, I don't think they quite got the important message from that podcast. I say got it. Yeah, but it was it was funny. It was something that they actually latched onto there. So I didn't eat the hooded margins are nook. It's still about here, swimming in our pond not far from where we're recording this podcast. Yeah, praise God. This podcast is not about ducks or eating ducks or anything like that, but it is about pro life

2:23 stuff in light of the Gospel, and so we hope to equip you guys in this episode. That we're going to do is maybe a little outside of our wheelhouse in the sense that we mostly focus on the outreach at abortion centers and and not on subjects like this. But we have done subjects like this in the past. We've talked about birth control, we've talked about, I don't know, other things more kind of like ideological things that have to do with pro life, the prolife message and our prolife conviction and it. We've never really talked about IVF. Right. What is IVF stand for in vitro fertilization? Yeah, we can get into some definitions. I think we should here in just a minute. Yeah, but just like to let you guys know this. We're not doctors. I'm not, you know, I'm not a scientist that deals with invader fertile fertilization or anything like that. But I don't think that we have to be doctors or scientists to dig into a subject and to see what the Scripture says about that subject and to see our convictions.

3:30 Are Our convictions in line with the repercussions in the things that surround this subject? So we're going to talk about in vitro fertilization and our goal is not to offend you. If there are people that are out there that have been involved in IVF and some way shape or form. Our goal is not to offend you, but we're not apologetic either. I'm not going going to apologize for the truths that we share. And if you're offended, maybe that offense is conviction that you need to repent, and so if that's the case, then repent. You don't need to repent to me, repent to Jesus.

4:14 But I think this will be, more than anything, informative for you guys that are listening. It probably for many of you will be a brand new subject, something not even on your radar. For some of you guys that who've been in this, this battle for a long time, we're going to tell you stuff you already know and you could probably add some more to this conversation and teach us something. So we're not going to pretend to be experts on this, but again, we are going to be consistent with what the Bible says and with our convictions that life begins at conception. So with that, let's jump into a Vicky define what we're talking about when we're talking about IVF or in Vito fertilization. Yeah, okay, so this is import or in vitro. So it be true, and this, this is for infertile couples, couples who cannot naturally conceive a child, okay, for whatever reason. So this process is one in which sperm and over them, the egg of the woman the sperm of the man are collected combined. Yeah, and the egg is fertilized outside of the woman's body and then replaced into the womb, right, and and hopefully then the pregnancy will proceed normally from that point. Yeah, sometimes the egg is the fertilized egg is implanted immediately into the womb. Sometimes it it isn't immediate, in which case that egg is frozen. Yeah, and some people, especially in the past, would collect

5:49 many, many eggs and and have many frozen. kind of has a safe safety net. Yeah, so, which causes all kinds of problems which we're going to be talking about. Yeah. So essentially, the term that used to be used, or a term that you heard, you know, when I was a kid, was test tube babies, right. Ever heard of that? Yes, and it's kind of that constant right. Yeah, the child is conceived in a laboratory, sperm and egg come together at that point that's a Zygoat and embryo, whatever technical term. But we would believe, and I think it's consistent with the Scripture and consistent with what we've said on this podcast all along, that life begins at conception, right, and that when that egg and that sperm come together in that process called conception, a unique life is created. Right, a unique human being has been created, and it's at the earliest stage that human beings development. So the reason that this came on our radar was actually we were on an airplane traveling to a conference and and a young lady who had had IVF sat down with one of our team members and started talking about IVF, and then they came over to talk to me because he had never really thought, I guess, a lot about what she was saying. She was supporting it from a Christian world view.

7:12 Yeah, which right away I struggled with. Right, I had not thought a lot about it honestly, until it but I knew I needed to do some research. I just feel it's important we can talk. We we should be consistent as pro life people. We should be consistent in our biblical and practical stance in all areas well, in all areas, but certainly in all areas that that are pro life, areas which this is so what I did is I pulled out, I read many articles, but one of them, which we cite on an article that I wrote then, which is a summary of some of the research that I found. Okay, and we I cite that article so that you can go read this Article Yourself, and I recommend that, at the very least, following this podcast, that everybody do that, read some of these articles we cite to come to your own conclusion.

8:03 And what we're going to do in this podcast is kind of present the facts as we uncover them, and then we're going to give a conclusion at the end that we think the evidence points us to from a biblical perspective. And also, you know, like I started out, if there's some repenting that needs to take place, and that's that's what you need to do before the Lord, and don't let your feelings and don't let your experiences take you away from it. What's actually true. Let's say that you have a child that was conceived in IVF was the process by which you have that child? That child is human being loved by God, right life, your son, your daughter, absolutely, and even though maybe if, as we shine some light on this, you start to realize this was not the best thing for me to have been involved in. Doesn't devalue that child and it doesn't make you a horrible mother or father or whatever. We don't know what we don't know. Yeah, you know, I'll share my story real quick, not about IVF, but about birth control. We talked about birth control in the past and there are some forms of birth control that are not a board of facient and there's some that are, and in the early stages of our marriage we use some of the ones that were. Yeah, and I just I didn't know I was doing what you do right. You have two kids and use birth control, and I felt that's the way that certainly was an aortized

9:35 that, yeah, that that was actually could be in a bard up board offacient. Yeah, and so I actually was exposed to cut like the truth about birth control and and what it could potentially do through focus on the family. They actually had a an episode, yeah, and a guys sharing about this and I repented before God like I did. Just didn't know. I could have known. I mean it's my fault. I could have known. I could have looked into it a little more, but again, I just believed kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times not a good idea. A long story short, we have eight kids now and obviously we we've come to know taken a different path, taken a different path, but I will say that I did repent before God. There was a point in which I remember all my knees weeping before the Lord saying God, I'm sorry. Now, I don't know in that process of my wife taking the birth control, if babies were aborted from her body because of the effects of that stuff. I don't know. Yeah, and so I can't repent specifically and say I'm sorry, but I'm sorry that even open the door for this. I'm sorry that that's even a potential right. So that's my experience with with birth control and I think it can be pretty similar to this.

10:54 Actually, there are people that are listening that have been involved in IVF that you need to repent before God. Yeah, God's Merciful, God's kind. The Lord is gracious and Compassionate, slow to anger and rich and loving kindness. But if we just try to take our sin and we come to the knowledge of the truth and we try to just hide that in darkness, the Bible says that if we hide it in darkness, we're not we're not going to get the freeiveness of sin, but if we bring it to the light, as he is in the lights. Is a first John Chapter one that we have fellowship with one another in the blood of Jesus Christ, his son, cleanses us from all sins. So bring your sin to the light. Acknowledge before God doesn't necessarily mean you need to confess it before your whole church. Maybe you do. I don't know. However, the Lord leads you, but definitely, if God's convicting you in this, repent and know that he's gracious. Now I would say that Daniel Parks has given away his conclusion anyway, of where this is leading us. Yeah, but I will say that when I the first article I read in the first one I sight.

11:52 So it'll be interesting for us to start with that. That was one that came to the conclusion that IVF in certain circumstances was at the cull for a Christian. Yeah, so it'll be. So one of the their first points is, and they they approached it from a biblical perspective. All right, overcoming fertility is pleasing to God. That was their first point. Go over and and you know there's countless examples in the Bible. Abraham and Sarah, Jacob and Rachel's that Ryan Elizabeth are all couples that were infertile and and God changed that. I do think that's key and the author did not bring that up. The author did not bring the point up that it was God that brought about the change in those couples in fertility. A child was miraculously conceived through God's yeah, intervention. Wells, there's some passages and I know maybe you're not going there, but I will say they're several passages where it talks about the Lord Closes, closed Sarah's womb, Lord closed Ragel Rachel's Womb.

12:54 I believe in there's some other passages to talk about other women that God closed her womb, and so you know there's that to God opens and closes the womb. So God has a has a purpose in infertility. Cruel. I think that that's one of the hardest points for me and in discussing this topic, I can't I have children. I didn't have I didn't struggle with in fertility. Yeah, but I know I wanted a third child when my husband did not, and I remember during that time period the pain of that, yeah, of feeling I'm not going to have a child that I so desperately wanted. So, you know, from an emotional perspective I get it. I get why these women do but but anyway, the and and so this article said, yes, but fertility is clearly pleasing to God. Yeah, although he does close some women's wombs. But yeah, but I mean I don't think theologically we can dive into all of that because obviously there are things that are a result of the fall. Like I don't believe just because someone can't conceive a child that that necessarily means that God has closed their womb.

13:58 Right. It could be other things going on that could be remedied. Bah, you know, maybe things like IVF done in a moral, a morally acceptable way, which will dig into. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, just want to miss that. Yeah, there are things that a result of the fall that we just we don't know what, we don't really good point and it's made a little bit later on in this article. So keep that in your mind for when we hit there, because that's a really, really important point. But the second one that the author points out is that modern medicine is a blessing and good in most cases, not all cases, but it most so. He said. We you know, in the same way that you'll take an aspirin for a headache, right well, that you're doing something that is that is not technically natural, but it's made from the natural resources and ingenuity that God has given us, and that's the the author makes the point that's the same with IVF. Okay, it's the ingenuity of the scientist and you're taking what is natural, that egg and sperm coming to together, and you're just kind of helping them along in the using modern medicine for a good purpose. It's not for an evil purpose. At least that's I mean they're cante respect on that just a bit. Whereas in a headache we're talking about alleviating a person's pain, in IVF and creating a child in the test whom you're literally creating a whole other life. That, and that was my major gut feeling as I was talking to that woman, was this is

15:28 a whole different level of intervention. The principles and the thought maybe sort of the things the same as we're talking about modern medicine, right, but yeah, yeah, we're talking about the creation ire label of rights, of modern rights, and that was exactly a human life. I agree. This is exactly where my moment went. I couldn't always articulate it because I hadn't really ever thought about it really much. But but yeah, so that's a really good point. The third point that the author made was that they he the unborn child is human from conception. Of course, we all know that. that. We know that that that is supported by scripture, and the reason that the author brings that up is to point out that anything that destroys, even from the earliest moment of conception, a human life, that that would be wrong. So's he's he's building a case for why IVF is okay, but does want to approach a biblically. So the unborn life. We agree with that. Yes, the unborn life is human from the moment of conception.

16:36 Yeah, so that little fertilized ovum egg in the embryo in the Petrie dish is a little human being that's about to be implanted in the womb. The fourth point he made was that children should only be conceived by, and born to married men and women. Yeah, and that's the precedent set up in the garden of Eden, right with Adam and eve. So we would agree on that point. To biblically, he's he's sound in that. So he's saying again this is this is an article that says VF can be morally okay, it can be. He's long as within these parameters, that's kind of what he's building. He's exactly he's building the points within these parameters it can be okay. And then he's going to going to go on to tell us, when those parameters exist, where you find clinits with those parameters.

17:23 And then so his conclusion, although he does go into some objections, which will go into next, but his conclusion was therefore it is morally good and in some cases, and he laid it right out, it's good if the embryos are not destroyed. No embryos destroyed in the process. It overcomes infertility, which he says was God's original plan. He also said from the fall infertility was not the plan right in the garden of Eden. That was the result of the fall, right, and and that the blessing of the children is brought to a married man and woman. If, if I VF achieves those three major goals, then it's okay, that's good. That's where where he ended. Now it's objections, and it wasn't his objections. He said this is what other people sit and I read a few articles that were actually on that side. Okay, of this discussion. So the first one is that it's not a natural process as God intended. Conception. Yeah, which is obvious. No, it's not. Yeah, of course not, but it is. It is, it's helping a natural process. And and again the people that excuse this objection as this is not about objection, will say, yeah, but there are other medical interventions, many that are not natural processes. Yeah, but we spied them. Yeah, we still do them.

18:45 Yes, sure, I mean dying is the natural process. If someone's having a heart attack and you know, just let the natural process carry through, we would not use the defibrillator anything. Right, correct. But again, we're talking can kind of next level. We're not just talking about saving a life, we're talking about literally creating a whole another, whole other life. Back to your dying thing. When I was thinking through all of this, I thought, okay, what would be the that accurate parallel, though, with dying would be if you killed someone because they might die. To me, that's again the same thing that you are you are taking a role that belongs to God. Yeah, that's, I think, where we both kind of are struggling with this is this seems like it's God's role, not ours. Yeah. So the second objection is that sex and conception are wrongly separated. Yeah, this goes back to what you were saying earlier. At the fall there was no infertility. And what the the author that that counters this objection says, yes, they are separated in the case of IVF, but it isn't so much IDF that separates them. It's the fall that separated them. The fall separated. For infertile couples, that's not what God intended.

20:11 It's the fall that is separated, the act of sex with with right, with conception. I thought that was an interesting yeah, because conception doesn't always happen. When I married couple as sex right right, and then for infertile couples it never happens. But that's not what God intended. It is the argument here is what is for I think, US, the most compelling right objection. This is the mazing the third one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's that embryos are destroyed. Yeah, now, I learned a lot as I was studying this. I thought that many, many eggs were collected and and then ultimately destroyed. The only used one or two and then the when the woman was to be clear, the collection of the eggs is not the issue. It's when the eggs are put together with a sperm and conception is taken place. Right. So correct? Yes. Yes, because those are the ones that are then frozen and and stored. Ultimately, if they're frozen, they need to be stored, and it used to be that doctors needed fifty sixty in order to have a seventeen percent success rate.

21:18 So and then all the other ones were would die. They would just die. So many were dying as a result of this process, and then many of the stored ones were being destroyed. Yeah, that is no longer. In terms of collecting, that's no longer the case. The success rate is now about fifty percent, sometimes greater, and they only are harvesting one or two eggs. Yeah, for the women, because the success rate is so much better, so fewer embryos are dying, first of all in the process, and most clinics apparently are committed to storing them as long as possil. But the problem is that people run out of money, they don't want any more kids, they just stop paying for the storage. And many articles I read said this is kind of the elephant in the room that the IVF clinics don't want to talk about. What do they do with the eggs? Right, see, you know what I read that they do. They either let them you know, they storm as long as they can and they destroy them, right, or, in this horrified me a bit more. Both are horrifying. They're used for science, right, the mother can sign them over for research, as these are living human beings right at the earliest stage of development. Yes, but being used for scientific research. And then they are destroyed. They're not. It said, as though this gives them the out.

22:42 They're not allowed to go on then to becoming living human being with altered whatever. Right, yeah, which is the grievous thing. This is this is the main concern, because if we believe life begins at conception, and in my mind, and I think you would agree most of us who claim to be pro life, there is no other logical point in a human beings existence except for the beginning of that existence, that we could say their life began. Right, life begins at implantation, you know, when the when they fertilized egg, when the zygote is implanted into the mother's uterus. Okay, well, that doesn't really make any sense. They're right, it must be life begins at conception. And again we're talking about an egg and a sperm coming together in conception and being stored away in, you know, freezer.

23:37 I don't know how they store these these things, some kind of freezer, yeah, whatever, and then ultimately thrown into the garbage can. Yeah, if we believe life begins a conception, we got to be against that. We cannot stand for that. And if you think about it too, we're really playing, in a sense, playing God. Yeah, and when human being step into that realm and the realm of playing God, the realm of creating human beings and doing tests and things like that on human beings, that is a dark downward spiral. A matter of fact, I would say maybe it's not a downward spiral, it's the bottom of the spiral. You know, when our science is using as its scientific object of scientific exploration, human lives, that's a problem. Yeah, and we as a church, if we believe what the Bible says, every human being is precious. Life begins at conception, then we've got to oppose this thing. Yeah, yeah, in terms of life beginning at conception versus implantation, it was through IVF research actually that I think that question was, I believe, clearly answered by science. God answer said, of course, yeah, it's at the moment of conception. But what they discovered through experimentation with these eggs and sperm as they're being fertilized, was that there was a spark of we call it a spark of light. More technically it's a spark of zinc. That it.

25:03 It's in a phosphorescent medium. You do see a spark of light. Yeah, anyway, that spark of light. They discovered that the bigger that spark was, the more viable the egg was. So they were able to then select which egg was most which fertilized egg was most likely to survive. Yeah, and that. But, but what I'm saying is there is at that moment that's spark of light, that spark of zinc, which shows that there has been fertilization. It occurs, you see it at the moment of conception right to me just be amazing. It is amazing. Yeah, just to found out that cool fact and the research based on human beings being created is still it's not a good thing. Yeah, and let me get let me mention a couple. These were some I just came up with on my own as I was thinking further along this subject. The embryos could end up being adopted by same sex couples. Well, do we, as firm believers and the biblical arrangement for a healthy marriage in which to raise children would would that be okay? But that does happen. That will happen with with the discarded eggs, the eggs that that the mom who they were harvested from no longer or wants. Yeah, so that's one thing. Another thing that really bothers me. If you think about it, human being should be treated with dignity and respect through all their natural life, from conception to natural death. Is it ethical for a living human being to be frozen and suspended their life,

26:38 suspended in a frozen state indefinitely to the end where they might be discarded if it's they're not wanted right at the end? Yeah, I mean, and who's to say, right, how long they can be frozen and still be like viable? Yeah, still be alive or able to live. I'm not sure of all of that process. Yeah, but that doesn't give me a lot of like a lot of good feelings to realize that they're human beings, human lives that are stored away in some freezer somewhere, right. Yeah, it kind of gives me pause just that part of it. And then one that we mentioned earlier on in the case of Biblical couples and infertility, it was never some like scientific intervention. Yeah, it was God. Yeah, you're changing biblically byplically, it was God who changed the infertility and if he didn't, we assume either he had a purpose, yea or or there was something that God could bring yeah. Yeah, I think another thing. You don't have this as an objection, but I think you would think you'd probably agree with me, is objectifying children, making them sort of objects. Yeah, and to the point where now we know that there's some push, and I'm I'm sure somebody in some European countries doing this where, you know, they're trying to figure out, okay, what makes a child be more beautiful?

28:12 How can how can that conception process be sort of tailor to make that child look more beautiful, be taller or have better genetics and live longer or whatever exactly. You know it's happening. Yeah, and so it's about actifying human beings, right, ejectifying children to the biblical understanding of children is that children are a blessing to the family. Children are to be brought into a family with the mother and the father, raised as a blessing, not as a not as some object, not as some like toy. And you know, it's kind of like the spirit of this thing is, well, let's create five embryos. Two of them, yeah, we will implant and will have, let's say, if the others later, for yeah, maybe, if we want another one, will have another one later. Now, I know I'm kind of being a little glib with it and I don't want to be lighthearted, especially for people that might be listening that have been involved in this. But, like, we're talking about human lives, we're talking about human beings, we're talking about, as a society, US objectifying children and even conception and all these things sort of to benefit us and what we want in our timing and all that stuff. Yeah, and we can go on and on and talk about that and I can offend you guys all day long, but at the end of the day, what what does the Bible say?

29:37 What is true? What is what is consistent with truth? Life begins at conception. Every human being is precious to the Lord and we as human beings do not have the right to play God. Now, does that mean if they're IVF clinics that don't destroy embryos, that have a commitment to do that, or all together wrong? I mean, I think there can be some conversations about that. I think as long as we're not destroying human lives, I feel more comfortable with it. But still I do have some concerns of seeing children as kind of like items that you can buy and items that you can create in a lab, that you place on a shelf. Until Betty, for you say, there's just something that doesn't sit well with me.

30:19 Yeah, yeah, for that. So you know, I do want to say it. I know that both of us feel this way. We mourn for those women. We know the joy and the love of children and we definitely mourn and understand why women might feel desperate enough to do this. But but I do hope this podcast helps people to really explore for themselves and to really think about it, because we do want to remain consistent. You will be asked about it, I'm sure, by Oh yeah, pro abortion crowds or whatever, and it's good to have a sense of how you should answer. Yeah, absolutely. So my conclusion is this that we need to be biblically consistent. We need to be consistent. Life begins at conception.

31:02 That means whether that conception happens in a test tube or whether it happens in a woman's uterus or whatever. Life begins at conception and we need to protect all lives. I do believe that we're going to have some further conversations about this, like if, yeah, this is the case, the what? How do we act? But I do think that one thing you can take away from this is like a tough started out. If you've been involved in this, just bring it before the Lord Repent. I think we do need to speak out when the when the subject comes up, and we need to we need to be informed about this thing so that, like you were on the plane, you weren't really like super informed about this, right. You didn't have enough information to really push back and say actually, there's there's some immortal things going on in these IVF clinics. Yeah, now you do.

31:48 Now you're able to push back graciously. We don't need to be bulldogs, like a bull in a China shop, and you need to be jerks about it, but we do need to stand for truth and so, more than anything, stand for Truth and and I believe God will honor it. So we'll wrap this podcast episode up. Encourage you to grab a hold of this article. It'll be on our sidewalks for Life Web site sidewalks, the number for lifecom and it's in equipping articles. So it'll be there around the time when this podcast comes out, I believe. So yeah, get Ahold of this article and let us know what you think. Maybe you have a unique perspective in this. Maybe you can add something to this conversation that we didn't think of. Maybe we're completely wrong about this and you'd like to correct us.

32:32 Heck, we'd love to have you on the podcast. I'd love to interview someone who's knowledgeable about this stuff and to give us more knowledge. But yeah, we would love to hear from you. Guys. You can reach out to meet Daniel a love life dot org and reach out to Vicky. Vicky at Love Life Dot Org. We'd love to hear from you, but until next time, God bless God, bless you all. Give our love for love. Give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you