Is It Pro-life To Use Birth Control?

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours s and me, Lord, I am Your Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. This episode we're going to look at the subject of birth control from a biblical and from a pro life perspective. This is a very controversial but important subject, so stay tuned. I felt show passish, touch your heart. Use Me. Welcome to the Gospel centered pro life podcasts. We appreciate you guys listening and, as always, we appreciate you guys sharing this podcast. We hope it is an encouragement to you guys, but also we want it to be an encouragement to other people. The goal is to equip people and to help people think through from a Biblical perspective, from a Gospel Center perspective, a lot of the issues that have to do with pro life stuff, with the main focus on sidewalk counseling, because that's what we do, sidewalk outreach, ministering to men and women at the local abortion centers. That's our heart, that's what God has called us to and that's what we want to equip you guys to do, and that's what these podcasts are centered around, even though not every time we cover a subject. Does that have to do with sidewalks?

1:19 The reality is, though, the conversation probably started on the sidewalks, as you and I are out there and you know, we have conversations with each other and we have conversation with our other counselors that are out there. Things come up, they might have a question about their hey, can you guys do a podcast or we think that? So podcast about that, because a lot of our topics ared the the desire to remain consistent. Yeah, and in what we think, say and believe. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, so we we put subjects out there that we think will equip people and answer questions that we see come up often times. And I know we did a couple of weeks ago a podcast about how to deal with people who are coming to the abortion center, mainly plan parenthood, who well, other abortion centers to who do other things other than abortion. The Abortion Center here on the troupe drive, they only do abortions, right, so we deal with people that are here for an abortion or have had an abortion, but there's other people that come to like plan parenthood and stuff, who are coming for I mean we talked about some of those things. Some are coming for like conversion therapy, right, this isn't the right term, or harm a hormone therapy for trans transitioning, yeah, into a different gender. Yeah, yeah, and they're people that come for various things, that Plant parenthood, and some of those people that we encounter the plant parent who'd come for birth control. And one of the questions that we have a lot from people is should Christians be using birth control right? And I think I think we

2:52 have to say right off from the start that, you know, we're not medical experts. Hmmm, and there is some controversy around this. It's not like it's a settled thing for some people to settled thing, like they've got it figured out. Christians should not use birth control at all. Some people would say who have it, they think have it figured out, would say Christians are okay using birth control. So I think we have to acknowledge that there is this tension and there's still some questions and we're going to talk about certain things again with the focus on equipping you guys at the abortion centers and you know, certainly, I think any subject that we approach, when we're talking about human life, we have to approach very carefully, very thoughtfully and, of course, very biblically. That's it, kind of the the angle we're going to be coming from as it pertains to birth control. So we've got, like we often do, an article that wonderful Vicki wrote here, and there's certain premises that we're going to be talking about, just kind of going through these certain premises and we're going to talk around those biblically and then practically. And the first premise here is that human life is sacred, and I'll think that's going to be an argument for any of our people that are listening. Hey, human life is sacred, has a sacred value above and beyond animal life and all of that. Right, human beings are made in the image of God. Genesis one hundred and twenty seven, God created man in his own image and image of God. He created him male and female.

4:25 He created them. Human beings are made in God's image and that, though, has to be the foundation when we're talking about birth control, right, when we're talking about bringing new lives into this world, when we're talking about abortion. Of course, if human life was just like animal life, then this debate would be null and void, right. Why are we in having this conversation. Why do we stand in front of abortion centers? I mean, certainly it's wrong to abuse animals, but we eat them, right, we eat them for dinner. Right, they didn't in the garden of eating until the fall. Correct. Yet kind of said I wish I'd been back to that time because I like animals. Like them to there's very tasty.

5:08 Actually it's what Peter stands where. You know that right, people eating tasty animals. Yeah, but point is that animal life and human life is different. Yeah, well, animals in humans have some of the same characteristics, but human beings are the only creature that God had made in his own image. Should that's premise number one, and and the the Bible is clear. That shown a murder. So this premise is absolutely critical when we're talking about birth control, because are their forms of birth control that do indeed violate this premise, that that they treat human life as not sacred because it destroys human life. But you've got to be operating in this discussion from that just first most base Dick Truth. Human life is sacred because God created us in his image, and so when we're talking about birth control, there's basically two different kinds. There's kinds that that either are going to prevent the egg from being fertilized and so a human life is not yet created. Yeah, and then there's kinds that prevent that fertilized egg from implanting, yeah, or can actually destroy the fertilized egg, and in that case that's going to violate this first premise. Right. They those are what are called the board of fashioned yeah, and and those that because they cause an abortion, because any time a fertilized egg is destroyed, that is a violation of that first premise.

6:42 Yeah, and that is of course. I mean, none of that would even matter if we didn't believe that life begins at conception, right, and we certainly do write believe that life begins at conception. It's the only logical place for us to say that life begins. You know. Yet the some of the pro abortion people that will say, you know, life begins at birth, or life begins at when the brain function is at a certain level. You know, it's so all of all of that is just a subjective and there's really no solid from all of that, even like from birth. I mean you say, well, that's not a subject that's an objective time period that takes place. But you're trying to have me believe that five seconds before or birth it's not alive. That's ridiculous. And a child at the same age that's born early, dude, they are they less value because they were born? Surely because the the time of birth wasn't they were developed for forty four weeks, like in in a jumical birth. But that does lead to the second premise, to yeah, unborn humans are loved by God from conception. So we believe that life begins at conception. Right again, I don't think there's any other logical plays where you could say this is when life begins, this is when a unique organism comes to being, except for conception.

7:59 Right, right, and even biblical Bibly, I mean, because everything that we hopefully impart in our podcast is is based on biblical tree. Yeah, and so we see in the scripture that God is the one. In Jeremiah, chapter one, verse five, he says, before I formed you, I knew you and before you were born, I consecrated to your eyes, set you apart as a prophet to the nation's yeah, so Jeremiah was known by God and of course this scripture implies and says very, very specifically that God is the one that formed him before I formed you. So who formed him? God did. I knew you. So this even speaks of and we're not going to go here, I don't think, per se, but the speaks of the knowledge of God before he was even conceived. It's like God knew him before he's even can see and get into a lot of theological depth as as it concerns that. Of course God knows the in from the beginning. God, it knows every life that comes to pass, and God certainly knew Jeremiah. But we do believe that human life is precious.

9:07 That's like the basic premise of being pro life or being against abortion. It's wrong because life begins at conception, in between conception and birth, there's life there. As a society we've said that life doesn't have value, but God's word says that it does. Yeah, when I was looking through this, but I don't think I had ever really noticed this, but in Luke one hundred and fifteen, he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb. Yeah, that really struck me. I mean talk about the value that God has placed on the unboard child. He has already filled that that unborn child, with the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So I think there's really no doubt biblically that from conception that child is loved by God, known by God, created by God and therefore valued by God from from that moment of conception. Absolutely. And so, just kind of moving along our third premises, we are called to protect human life from the moment of conception.

10:11 Yeah, and so that's why we stand in front of an abortion center. Yep. That's why we are calling out to the bombs that come over and receive literature and hell, that's what we're pleading with him not to go in that place. Not because we think that what goes on there is just a bad idea or just a bad medical procedure. Mean, certainly those places are not safe, but it's more than just a medical procedure that takes place. A human life is destroyed and we are called to protect human life. Right. Lots of verses that that. That tell us that one of the the when, again, when I was looking through researching this article again, I had never really noticed this, but in in the verse where talks about how the angel speaks to Mary, says that she has conceived through the Holy Spirit. And then it says right after she hurries to her cousin Elizabeth.

11:05 So this is presumably immediately after the conception of Jesus of the baby in her womb and as she hurries immediately. So this is a newly conceived baby in her womb, right, unless I'm misreading no, and and the the baby and Elizabeth's womb leaps for joy. So there's there's two babies here, one who is leaping for joy in the womb, which is very telling, but recognizing already the specialness of that other baby in the womb who is newly conceived. and to me I think that's an argument for again that from conception that that child is is honored and loved and valued by God. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I just to piggyback on that. If you're looking at those terms in the Greek, you look at and Luke chapter one, especially where it talks about the baby leapt in her womb, and Luke chapter one talking about about John The baptist. The word there's breathos, right, so that's a Greek word referring to an infant. So yeah, later on when it talks about Mary Holding Jesus. After Jesus is born, that same word is used. Yeah, breathos. It's the same, same word. So, biblically, by the Holy Spirit, Luke is recording, the baby in the womb is breathos, right, a baby, a life that's conceived.

12:35 Yeah, and then the baby outside of the womb, referring to Jesus, is breathos, yeah, an infant. Yeah, and words matter. They didn't, and certainly to God and the words that he chooses and or inspires the writers in the bike. Yeah, I mean they'll say there were likely words available, and it's kind of like you know, nowadays we referred to a baby in the womb as a fetus. Medically that an infant is after it's born, but generally we just referred to it as a baby rights, the general term that we use. If it's wanted, that's what we refer to it as. For sure. Yeah, there are certainly words they could have used in Greek that would have been different than Breathos, but they chose that because it's the same as a baby inside the whims the same as a baby outside of the womb, except for a few different things that are going on there. Right in the development of that job. But as far as value, yeah, as far as personhood, it's the same. Yeah, we believe that. Yeah. So we've kind of built a case up to this point that, okay, the the baby is a baby, is a human being from the moment of conception, is valued from the moment of conception and is worthy of our protection. Yeah, from the moment of conception.

13:41 And that all leads kind of to the fourth premise where we begin to really discuss then. Well, so, what about birth control? Yeah, should be our concerns with me. Yeah. Yeah. So premise some before is if we know birth control methods or a board of Facian, we should not use them. Yeah, and acknowledging, like we did at the beginning of this podcast, that there's some ambiguity there. There's some birth control methods that some doctors say could be and some doctors are saying they aren't probably aren't right. So we're going to talk around that a little bit. Yeah, but the Ambi you guys to do your own research. The ambiguity is not that we should go ahead and use it if it's a board of fashioned. Yeah, there's no ambiguity biblically, if it is an a board of fashion.

14:28 If it kills a developing human being, then we've kind of laid the groundwork. We shouldn't use it. So it behooves every Christian to understand that, right. Yeah, which which birth control methods are acknowledged as a board of fashioned and which? I'm not charmed saying that right, by the way, it might be facient, I'm not sure. But which are and which are not? And and if, if we love the Lord, we should try to abide by not using those that we can pretty conclusively say are a Board of fashion. Yeah, and full disclosure, I'll share a little bit of my story. Okay, is that for a while, me and my wife, we did use birth control. We used hormonal birth control, for this was after we were Christians, after we were married. Yeah, and really just because it's it's like it's what you do, right. Everybody does.

15:22 The help your exact doesn't no one talks at all about it being possibly causing abortions. Yeah, you really have to dig to find that information. Yeah, absolutely, and so we used it and I'm just figured it's what everybody does. And you know, as the Lord Begin to work on me a little more, because if you think about it. The reasoning behind that is really unbiblical reasoning. I'm not gonna not going to do this, probably for a whole other podcast. It could be a whole other podcast I talk about, but what you came to. So the Bible lays out a very clear case that children are blessing right, that we should view children as a blessing.

16:03 And this whole idea of you know, to and no more, right, two kids and no more, this comes from the world. This comes from the world's view of children. The children are just a bless our children are just a birding burden, not a blessing. That the getting the way if you, you know, having your new house and your two new cars in the driveway and mom and dad able to go out on you know, on the town or whatever. And so the motivation for limiting our families a lot of times is a selfish one. If we examine it honestly, right, and it's not a biblical understanding the blessing that children are. The Bible says in some one and twenty seven children are a blessing from the Lord.

16:44 In the Hebrew mindset it was a blessing to have children. You would be cursed. You think about Rachel, who cried out to Jacob and said give me children or I die. Yeah, like she wanted to have children, she wanted now, she said desperate. She went through her servant, her maid servants right to have children at first year. Is that someone else? And the patriarch spected. Yeah, yeah, and so children are to be received as a blessing. It would be received as a curse. Now, I don't mean to say that people that can't have children are cursed. I'm not. I don't exactly agree with that, but biblically, if you didn't have children, they were something wrong. Right. Nowadays, if you have too many children, according to say are quotes, too many children AC cording to the eyes of the world, and somehow you're weird and you're strange, which is a complete contradiction and the kind of turning things upside down according to what the Bible's motivation is. Yeah, children are a blessing. We've got eight kids. I remember back whenever we had for people would look at US funny and think, don't you know an they always say, don't you know what causes that? Right, so, yeah, causes that. I never heard that one before. So I think this understanding, this biblical understanding, ultimately is what got ahold of me. And then I dug a little deeper in the birth control stuff and just discovered that some of the hormonal birth control actually could potentially be a board of facient. Right, it could be taken babies who are conceived and and causing them to be flushed out of my wife's

18:15 body and, yeah, and to be ultimately killed, right, yeah, and I remember repenting before the Lord for that and it took some time before I realized what this birth control stuff could potentially do. And so, as for me and my house, we said we're not using that stuff. Yeah, because if even if it's possible, if it's even possible, that a baby is being killed, then I don't want to have any part in that. And so I think, guys, is we're going through this. You know, I don't want to come down heavy, I don't want to bring condemnation to people sharing what God did in my heart, but also, listen, guys, we do need to be very careful about what we're involving ourselves in, the mentalities that we embrace and the stuff that we use, because I do believe that's what we need to be thinking in our minds as it concerns birth controls, like okay, is we're talking through in these different ones, who may or may not write destroy a fertilized egg, a child that is conceived. If we believe that life begins a conception and there's something that it may or it may not, I think when in doubt, you stay away from that stuff. I would agree are on the side of caution in that, because to end it, even inadvertently, take a human life, would be wrong. Yes, wrong for God. So we have a list which I a lot of people just want to know that. They have asked us which ones are okay, which ones are not. In like you said, and we do post the two articles that this these lists are based on on our sidewalks for life and also where we post the podcast. But in

19:52 both articles they are very honest that there is controversy. Yeah, they also point out that they tried recently to research this list and to find out was there a more definitive proof of whether they were a board of fashion or not, and said in a decade there's been very little definitive research, which is, yeah, kind of strange. You would think they would want to answer that question. But again, we're in a pro death culture, yeah, a pro abortion culture, and it is not a burning issue. Yeah, in our society. Yeah, kind of been accepted as normative. And Hey, who's to say it kills a child or not? WHO's the judge?

20:33 And why should we dig any deeper into it? Right, yeah, because we're, like you said, we're in a prodeath culture. Yeah, and culture that views children is only burdens rather than blessing. Right. Yes, is a contradiction according to the word of God. So oral contraceptives. These are the aboard of Fashions. So oral contraceptives, which are probably the most commonly used birth control everywhere. So that that would be birth control pills, and there are some that are considered clearly aboard of fashioned and some that there's some question about. Yeah. So, in either case, the birth control pills are iffy for a Christian use if you're truly going to be trying to follow God's very clear and strict standard of the value of life. IUDs, both copper and hormonal. I don't know what a hormonal IUD is. I'm not sure I understand that, but the article said that both of those are aboard of fashioned and that one there's a lot of evidence. There's also evidence in all of these things which so makes sense with God's commands, are always protective, and in both birth control pills and in the IUD there are risks and they're not insignificant. True to the mom stroke, blood clots with the IUD, actually with both of them, increased risk of ectopic pregnancy. So there's dangers with these. We these birth control methods. Be The hormonal.

22:11 All of really the hormonal birth control. So that would include the hormonal patches, hormonal shot, hormonal implants, hormonal vaginal rings. And I get this question a lot. Plan Be. Yeah, plan be. Someone just asked me as plan be the abortion pill. No, it's not, but it is what used after rape or after unprotected sex. I think it has to be used within twenty four hours. Yeah, I'm not really sure about that, but it's the emergency contraceptive. Yeah, and there, there again. There's some controversy over that, but some experts and some of the research does indicate that it could cause an abortion. Yeah, yeah, and I want to kind of maybe give a little qualifier here. Okay, because there is some ambiguity right, is some. There's some research that says yeah, it's some that says nay. So just like you could say, could plan be potentially kill a fertilized egg, kill a conceived child? Yes, it could, but that doesn't mean it always does. Right. In fact, the vast majority of time they feel it doesn't. Right. Yeah, in the same way because from what I understand, you correct me if I'm wrong, but it's basically just a bunch of birth control, right. The plan B is just a concentrated amount of birth control. Yeah, in a big dose.

23:32 Yeah, but one time by loose or one or two type those. And so in the same way with a with birth control pills. Yeah, it could. It's possible that it could abort weren't a conceived child, but it's not absolutely, absolutely always going to, or can you absolutely prove that it has? So you know from my situation that I shared, my wife took birth control for a couple of years. Yeah, I have no idea whether or not there were conceived children, right, that were ultimately aborted. I don't know, right. Right. So I'm not going to bear a bunch of guilt for myself because I didn't know what I didn't know, but now that I do know. Yes, sustain away from that. Yeah, I don't even want to touch it. Yeah, and I think that's a really important point. is in all these things, we're not the MOM and dad of all of our listeners and we can we can't force them to or nor do we want to force them to make a choice. That choice has to be between you and God. But we're just giving the evidence as as we know it and we strongly recommend that people research for themselves and really get before the Lord and absolutely he would convict them. There are non aboard of fashioned methods of birth control. Those would definitely be the preferred method, so that that would include male and female condoms, vaginal sponge, sperm acide, those are all non aboard of fashion, and so they're there that they're called the barrier methods, like, you know, cervical cap, diaphragm sterilization.

25:00 I mean if a lot of people have a lot of strong feelings about whether that is biblical or not, sure, but but there's that is that does prevent at a fertilized egg from ever or at the egg from ever getting fertil yes, I mean that would be there's a whole other conversation around that, course, right. But yeah, I mean there's there's no fertilization taking place because you've been sterilized, right, and then you know natural family planning, so fertility awareness methods. The Catholic certainly teach that method of of family planning. Yeah, so those are all those would all be acceptable as a birth control if you are sold that birth control is is acceptable. Yeah, and of itself. Yeah, and so that's kind of that was premised number four.

25:53 Premised number five. Birth control does not prevent abortion and has risks. There's this mentality that you, as a society, birth control is good. I've actually even had some folks who have come across my radar who want to get involved, who want to get trained to do sidewalk counseling and things like that. And on some of the forms we ask questions like what's your view of birth control? We just want to see where people are at, right. Yeah, and a lot of people are saying I've seen it. Quite a few people respond with well, birth control is good because it lowers abortion. Yeah, and so that's a good thing, right, because people who like centers are going to sin, and we understand that people are going to have sex outside of marriage right and if they're going to, it's better that they use birth control rather than they go and aboard their children that are conceived in in their sin. But for what you've have here, you're saying that it doesn't prevent abortion rights. There is, and that's surprised me, but the the website students for Life Dot Org. And then contraception, and I thought we link that in the article. It's sites research that shows that nine percent of women who use birth control get pregnant anyway, and a whopping fifty one percent of abortion past patients were using birth control when they got pregnant.

27:10 So it shows this is not an effective tool to prevent abortion, which was is always what you hear from the socalled pro choice crowd. You know why are you against birth control? You hate abortion. This prevents abortion. Well, the research shows, first of all, fifty one percent of the women who are coming for an abortion we're using birth control in the month that they came for the abortion. But the second thing is, not only does it not prevent abortion, but birth control may in fact be an abortion at times. Yeah, so it and, like I had already mentioned, it also has it comes with its own risks. Yes, yeah, yeah, absolutely. We won't get into all of those. I think if nothing else, guys, this podcast should spur you guys to do your own research. We're going to give you. I've already shared with you kind of the conclusion that our family has come to, and so we've given you that, but you need to get before the Lord. You need to do the research yourself.

28:03 It's helpful to be informed of these things when you're out on the sidewalk and you're ministering to people that are coming to have birth control. It's good to have some of these facts. It's good to know some of the stuff and ultimately, it's good that we know before the Lord that we're doing the right thing. Right we want to honor God. That's far and above everything that we want to honor the Lord. So if we're doing things, if we're embracing mentalities that dishonor the Lord and they're just not biblical mentalities as far as like our view of children and that sort of thing, we need to repent. Yeah, and we need to ask the Lord to change our hearts in those areas. Yeah, and which kind of leads to that. I think it's our last premise. Pres yes, our six premise. Yeah, birth control masks the true issue of rebellion from God. Yeah, so much of the freedom to have sex outside of marriage is because of birth control. Yeah, it. It does make it easier to rebel against God in the issue of sexual purity. Yeah, I mean, you think about it, we're a peel popping society. We got appeal for everything, right, everything that we do, we've got some kind of peal that can make it all better.

29:12 And obviously that's not the it's not the will of God. All right, again, children are blessing. Yeah, and when there's no I don't know how to say this, but there's no consequences, we can pop up pill to get rid of the consequences of anything that we do or to chield us from consequences. And sex outside of marriage. The consequence sometimes can be that you get pregnant, right, and there's a child that you have to be responsible for. Yeah, take away that a consequence. And it's like this whole free love movement and the Birth Control Movement really have coincided with one another, and the birth control movement gave fuel to the fire for the glute freelove movement. And all the other junk that came with that. And then, ultimately, for abortion. Yeah, because when birth control fails, abortion becomes the final birth control. Yeah, it prevents the the birth of that child. But so, yeah, with with birth control came the sexual revolution.

30:10 And but you know, and it brought so many, in the the eyes of the world, so many benefits for women. And yet look at what it also brought. Increased number of teens being sexually active, and most people would agree that's really not a good thing on so many levels. Yeah, increased pregnancy out of wedlock, the onslaught of stds, those were basically nonexistent before this sect. Well, that's not quite true. There was syphilis before the big sexual revolution, but but now there's a whole host of new sexually transmitted diseases. And and so it went from we went from the thought of Birth Control Liberating women to abortion being a valid choice and to really what God says about sexual purity outside of marriage is old. Yeah, and we don't need to abide by those in a modern society with all these ways of taking care of the bad the problems. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

31:19 So, and another thing that I thought this was really interesting I got a few statistics that really again shocked me as I read this. In one thousand nineteen hundred six percent of unmarried women were sexually active. In nineteen ninety nine that increased to seventy five percent. Well, and this is, you know, outside of marriage. Seventy that's staggering. Yeah, that's really disturbing. And even more disturbing is, rather than reducing the extra marital pregnancy rate, which is what this birth control was supposed to do, it actually has increased.

32:00 So in the the statistic that they cite is that the share of all pregnancy outside of marriage has increased from two percent in the S to thirty three percent in the nineteen ninety nine. So birth control has not decreased extra marital pregnancy, it is increased it. Yeah, it makes sense. Everybody is now seventy five percent of unmarried people are engaged in sexual activity outside of marriage. Yeah, yeah, so all these numbers just help us to understand kind of the floodgate being opened up right with this whole sexual revolution. Again, the these the sexual revolution and the birth control movement coincide with one another.

32:45 We're not going to get in depth as far as the Margaret Singer in the birth control league and all that stuff. Yeah, just really wanted to equip you guys and spur you guys to think more biblically about this, think more biblically about children and the value of children, but also birth control, just in general, the mindsets, but just practically the effect that it could potentially have on ending the life of a baby. So again, that we have a biblical perspective on this, that we ourselves to our lives right, we have to. The Bible says, remove the log from your eye so that you can help your brother remove the speck from his eye. So if we're going along and we're talking about how evil it is for people to view children as property, and yet we ourselves are embracing this birth control mindset where children are really, in our minds, just a burden and we're willing to take pills that are potentially going to end the life of a baby in the womb ourselves. Who really got to get the log out of our own eye first?

33:42 We got to examine our hearts before God first, and then we can help others right, see clearly, to get the speck out of their eye. Yeah, Amen. And so just encouraging you guys again to think about this biblically. Maybe you've got some pushback on this, maybe you've got a different perspective than we do. We certainly would love to hear your perspective. You can reach out to me Daniel at Love Life Dot Org. He reached her at Vicky at Love Life Dot Org. This is again not intended to bring guilt and condemnation all that, but just just spur you guys to love and good works. Right. It's just spur you guys to think biblically. So if you've got questions about this, if you've got things to add, maybe, I don't know, maybe there's an expert about birth control out there that could give us some better perspective or something like that. We would certainly love to bring them on, whatever that looks like. Bring them on zoom or come here the office and recording. If you know somebody like that, reach out to us. Let us know. But we hope this has been an encouragement. Do you guys? Hope this has been a challenge to you guys? And with that we will wrap this thing up. So God bless you guys and we'll talk to you later. Give me our love for love.

34:59 Give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious, and some that you