Feb. 27, 2020

Is God An Incrementalist or Immediatist?

Is God An Incrementalist or Immediatist?

Within groups that stand against abortion there's a lot of debate over which stance is the correct one, Incrementalist or Immediatist. Some folks may not even know what these terms mean. Join Vicky and Daniel as they explain the differences and talk...


Within groups that stand against abortion there's a lot of debate over which stance is the correct one, Incrementalist or Immediatist. Some folks may not even know what these terms mean. Join Vicky and Daniel as they explain the differences and talk through this subject from a Biblical perspective. 

www.sidewalks4life.com

charlotte.cities4life.org

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours s and me, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.230 Lord, I am your. Biblically speaking, is God an incrementalist or an 3 00:00:11.230 --> 00:00:15.269 immediate test when it comes to the issue of abortion? What are those terms? 4 00:00:15.310 --> 00:00:18.989 Even me will stick with us as we explore this topic and talk through 5 00:00:19.070 --> 00:00:34.420 this thing biblically. I felt show tassish touch your welcome to the Gospel Center 6 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:39.530 per life podcast. We're going to talk about an important subject, because all 7 00:00:39.570 --> 00:00:42.250 of the subjects that we talked about are important. Of course, I feel 8 00:00:42.250 --> 00:00:45.770 like they are anyway. Yep, and it's one that has been flying around, 9 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:49.490 I guess, in the bloggest sphere and the social media sphere and all 10 00:00:49.530 --> 00:00:53.439 of that, and it's the subject and we're sort of tagging it. Is 11 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:59.359 God an a mediatist or an incrementalist? And you who are listening may or 12 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.640 may not know what those terms are. Actually did a podcast interview with Flip 13 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.909 Benham some months ago where he talks about the dangers of incrementalism. We did 14 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:15.989 an interview with with Carl who's with abolish human abortion, and called Carl Turnmeier, 15 00:01:17.390 --> 00:01:21.620 who's with abolish human abortion here in North Carolina, and he talked about 16 00:01:21.620 --> 00:01:26.739 abolition the abolitionist stance against per life stance. We see you on our facebook 17 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:32.659 news feeds and social media feeds, a lot of arguments and stuff, you 18 00:01:32.739 --> 00:01:37.170 know, even accusations against, you know, the abolitionist against the prolife folks. 19 00:01:37.290 --> 00:01:41.170 I'm even pro life folks against abolitionist folks. And really the the debate 20 00:01:41.450 --> 00:01:48.760 is about the immediate abolition of abortion or incremental steps to to end abortion in 21 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.439 our country. And you know, there's a lot out there is a lot 22 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.480 that people can read. There's a lot of stuff you know. Maybe you 23 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:57.319 know, if you reach out to us, we can point you in the 24 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.560 right direction. Some things you can read, but I think the most important 25 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.709 thing to read when it comes to subjects like this that are very important is 26 00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:07.229 the Bible. And that's what we're going to be looking at it from a 27 00:02:07.389 --> 00:02:14.509 perspective of not just politics and what politicians say and and what works, because, 28 00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:16.620 you know, pragmatism can be a big, big time trap and it 29 00:02:16.699 --> 00:02:21.539 can cause us to compromise the Gospel and compromise truth. So we don't want 30 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:23.780 to do that. But what does the Bible say? Is God himself and 31 00:02:23.939 --> 00:02:30.930 incrementalist or an immediatist? And I think at the end of this podcast will 32 00:02:30.009 --> 00:02:35.250 probably have offended everybody. Right. That's our which is our goal really not 33 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.409 what our goal? What we do best is offending people, making people angry. 34 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:40.889 If you're offend, listen. At the end of the day, if 35 00:02:42.050 --> 00:02:45.280 you listen this podcast and you're offended by it, please let us know. 36 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.639 Listen either either way. As far as incrementalists and immediatist I'm willing to be 37 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:57.919 convinced. I'm open minded either way and just kind of let the cat out 38 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.909 of the bag. I'm more tinned toward the immediatist abolitionists. Persuasion, but 39 00:03:04.710 --> 00:03:07.310 also no, practically, there's some things that, you know, the Lord 40 00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:12.189 uses, but I'm willing to be convinced either way. As long as you're 41 00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:15.340 arguing from the scriptures. I don't care about your opinion, I don't care 42 00:03:15.379 --> 00:03:21.500 about your experience, I don't care about what your grandma believes. I care 43 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:23.780 about what the Bible says. I don't know you do too, because yes, 44 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:28.090 and you've got an article which we're going to hopefully put up on sidewalks 45 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:31.090 for life right in the coming weeks that sort of lays out, I think, 46 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:37.009 really a very good case. So let's jump into it. Yeah, 47 00:03:37.129 --> 00:03:38.930 so I you know, I'll be honest, I've been doing this now for 48 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:46.159 six, six years, really very involved in some counseling and and prolife ministry, 49 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.479 and I had really no idea that this rift between I didn't know there 50 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:57.629 were these two camps about how to bring about the end of abortion and I 51 00:03:57.789 --> 00:04:02.030 just thought everyone was kind of all together it. Clearly anyone working in this 52 00:04:02.189 --> 00:04:05.949 sort of ministry wants abortion end. We hate abortion, we know it's youthful, 53 00:04:05.990 --> 00:04:11.939 we know it's wrong, it's against God's clear commands. So so I 54 00:04:12.099 --> 00:04:17.180 really approach this as as someone who is pretty ignorant about both of these positions. 55 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:21.220 But I will tell you that it dismays me when I saw some of 56 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:28.410 the what I see as attacks on on fellow Chris Christians and and I do 57 00:04:28.569 --> 00:04:33.370 feel dismay grieves me. Yeah, a house divided us against itself cannot stand. 58 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:40.759 So I think it's a very important subject and what I did is exactly 59 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.639 what you said. I went through scripture and I tried to determine really kind 60 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.040 of in a sense, well, what is God? Yeah, is he 61 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:59.189 immediate test or is he an incrementalist? And two main events biblical events came 62 00:04:59.629 --> 00:05:02.790 to mind that I think could make a compelling case for one of the other 63 00:05:02.870 --> 00:05:08.779 okay, and those were the the exodus into the promised land, yeah, 64 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:15.019 and the conquering and settlement of the Promised Land. That's one thing. That's 65 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:19.180 one thing largely told in the book of Joshua. And then the second thing 66 00:05:19.699 --> 00:05:27.290 is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, okay, and the salvation 67 00:05:27.970 --> 00:05:31.009 and sanctification of his people. All right. So sort of an old testament 68 00:05:31.129 --> 00:05:34.720 picture, HMM, and a new testament picture, right, okay, right, 69 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:46.920 yeah, so God promises for the first time in the Bible to secure 70 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.949 the land for his people. Okay, in right at the beginning of the 71 00:05:49.990 --> 00:05:55.629 Bible, in in Genesis, right, and that specific promise, I think 72 00:05:55.790 --> 00:06:00.829 is important and to read. And that's Genesis fifteen versus eighteen to twenty one. 73 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:08.339 All ready got those, okay. Yeah. So Genesis Eighteen through three, 74 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:11.939 twenty one, okay, says on that same day the Lord made a 75 00:06:12.019 --> 00:06:15.019 covenant with Abraham, saying to your descendants, I have given this land from 76 00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:20.290 the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates, the Canaanites 77 00:06:20.850 --> 00:06:28.170 or the Kenites, sorry, in the Kenyasites and the Kamonodites and the HIVOTITES 78 00:06:28.250 --> 00:06:32.800 and the priserites and the refree them the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Gurgishites 79 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.000 and the jebusites and all of those sites. That was purposely just to hear 80 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.000 you say you on the me to be thank you. That was very humbling. 81 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.439 Okay, so look at the beginning. Okay, your descendants, I 82 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.790 have given this lamb. Okay, okay, it's it's pres intense, it's 83 00:06:48.870 --> 00:06:53.550 Dawne. Yeah, it's it's an imman right thing. It's immediate, it 84 00:06:54.430 --> 00:07:01.740 is absolute, it's complete. And the interesting thing is this promises made before 85 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:06.699 Abraham had borne a single child. It's actually why he's still called Abram, 86 00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:13.860 right is he called jelled? Abraham hadn't even become Abraham yet. So God 87 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:20.529 has a goal and ambition and it will be completely accomplished. The deliverance, 88 00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:25.050 though, is many, many, many years down the road. Yeah, 89 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:29.290 in God's eyes it's already a done deal. Yeah, right, God's outside 90 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:32.879 of time. But this promise says the land is given, he has been 91 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.800 given. But the reality is it took actually four hundred and seventy years from 92 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:47.189 that promise before the first victory over a city, Jericho. Yeah, in 93 00:07:47.310 --> 00:07:54.110 the Promised Land, a hundred and seventy years. And even that first victory 94 00:07:54.709 --> 00:07:59.019 was not immediate. You remember the famous story of the soldiers mark. God 95 00:07:59.139 --> 00:08:03.939 tells them you're going to March seven times around that city before they would blow 96 00:08:03.939 --> 00:08:07.300 the trumpets and and Jericho would be seven days. Yeah, what did I 97 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:11.420 say? Seven days is yeah, that I'm ATT right. Seven days around 98 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:16.209 that city before they overthrew the city. Why not immediately? Yeah, why? 99 00:08:16.209 --> 00:08:18.730 I'm really God could have taken over Jericho immediately, right, sure, 100 00:08:18.730 --> 00:08:26.850 right. So a similar question can really even be asked about the whole promised 101 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:31.600 land process. How did he bring about the conquest of the Promised Land? 102 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.159 Did he lead his peed pole instantly out of Egypt? Well, it took 103 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:43.149 some took some prom some process ultimately bring judgment upon Egypt and bring the children 104 00:08:43.190 --> 00:08:46.629 of Israel out. HMM. And it took how many years? Forty years, 105 00:08:46.669 --> 00:08:50.350 right, forty years. That was supposed to be a trip where that 106 00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:54.590 is a trip that can take eleven days. Yeah, that's whatever ridden commentaries. 107 00:08:54.710 --> 00:09:01.299 Right. So it took forty years and God clearly didn't take the most 108 00:09:01.820 --> 00:09:07.340 immediate route he didn't take the most direct route. He took them on a 109 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:16.169 maddeningly long circuitest adversity filled root for forty years. Yeah, and when they 110 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:22.970 when they finally get to the Promised Land, most of those adults, right, 111 00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:26.559 that had been led for those forty years, are not allowed to enter, 112 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.320 right. Yeah, Promised Land. Yeah, even before we go much 113 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.679 deeper into this, because there's some I believe there's some comparison, some good 114 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.110 comparison here, between per life, abolition, incrementalism, immediatism and that sort 115 00:09:41.110 --> 00:09:43.509 of thing. Let's real quick, though, define our terms. Okay, 116 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.590 we didn't do that. Oh, okay, when we need to do that, 117 00:09:46.710 --> 00:09:50.230 sure, yeah, when we're talking about a mediatist, what we're saying 118 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:56.139 is basically that we want the immediate abolition of abortion, we want abortion to 119 00:09:56.220 --> 00:10:03.299 be made illegal in this these United States, for the unborn child to be 120 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:07.610 deemed a human being with full rights as a any other human being would be 121 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:13.529 in this country, and for people to stop murdering them. And that to 122 00:10:13.649 --> 00:10:18.169 me, praise God, that's what I want. So I mean that would 123 00:10:18.169 --> 00:10:20.210 be a good definition, don't you think? May I think? Yes, 124 00:10:20.409 --> 00:10:24.120 listening would jimmy was a different definition. But and and they immediate tost would 125 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.480 and they would say that any law that limits abortion is showing that there is 126 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.240 a group of those unborn babies that are somehow of less value. Yeah, 127 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.309 yeah, so if the the exception for rape, for example, limits abortion 128 00:10:37.509 --> 00:10:41.909 except in the case of rape, well, are the babies of rape of 129 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:48.190 less value than the babies that are conceived outside of rape? Right? And 130 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:50.539 of course not. Right, of course not. They're all of equal value. 131 00:10:50.659 --> 00:10:52.980 Yeah, and you know, Flip said something is that. You did 132 00:10:54.019 --> 00:10:56.019 the interview with him, which you guys, if you hadn't listen to that, 133 00:10:56.059 --> 00:10:58.580 please go back and listen. Yeah, he's basically saying, you know, 134 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:01.740 all this legislation, all this incremental would just define that real quick. 135 00:11:01.820 --> 00:11:07.490 Basically, it means just some steps toward ending abortion. So bands on abortion 136 00:11:07.529 --> 00:11:11.809 at you twenty weeks, bands on abortion at you know, when a heartbeats 137 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.490 detected. Bands on abortion against children, that you can't abord a child just 138 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:20.639 because it's a it's a girl or boy, sex selective abortions, bands on 139 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.360 that sort of thing, bands on parts or the Moor fee. Yeah, 140 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.000 bands based on you can't abort based on a disability and all that stuff and 141 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:33.669 so this would be incremental steps, chipping away really right, chipping away at 142 00:11:33.710 --> 00:11:37.110 abortion, and ultimately the goal, at least I would hope the goal for 143 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.470 for folks who would be in that camp, would be ultimately the end the 144 00:11:41.549 --> 00:11:43.230 thing. But we feel, you know, they would say, we feel 145 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:48.139 like it's going to take some steps, not just immediate ending of abortions, 146 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:52.379 and at least some babies are saved. The incrementalists would say, at least 147 00:11:52.460 --> 00:11:58.139 some babies are saved along the way that would otherwise not be saved because full 148 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:03.370 abolishment of abortion is just not going to happen right now. It's not realistic. 149 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:07.850 Yeah, and so you know, I guess the incrementalist would say the 150 00:12:07.970 --> 00:12:13.450 immediate test ideas of pine this Guy Right, not going to happen. Right. 151 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.759 We need to chip away at this thing. And of course the immediates 152 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.919 would say like what flip said. Basically all this legislation says can have a 153 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.240 tag on the end of it, it says, and then you can kill 154 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:28.120 the baby. So you know things like regulations for abortion clinics. You know, 155 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.549 abortion clinic has to have such and such in place and all this other 156 00:12:30.629 --> 00:12:31.669 stuff, and then you can kill the baby. Yeah, you know, 157 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:35.230 twenty week bands. Long as it's not older in twenty weeks, then you 158 00:12:35.269 --> 00:12:37.870 can kill the baby, right, you know. And so, you know, 159 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:41.990 I get that point and yeah, I agree that a lot of it. 160 00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:45.980 I don't know what percentage that because, you know what, honestly I 161 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.860 don't deal in the political realm too much. People ask me questions about politics 162 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:52.100 and about, you know, things, bands on abortion. I mean you 163 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:54.700 asked me a couple weeks ago, I think, as the twenty week band 164 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.450 been lifted in of Carolina, like I don't know. Yeah, I mean 165 00:12:58.529 --> 00:13:03.210 maybe, probably, I think it has been. Yeah, and actually, 166 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:05.850 you know, just to to jump on that point for a second, because 167 00:13:05.850 --> 00:13:11.929 I did find out. But it relates to this discussion also, is that 168 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:20.039 in North Carolina now until the age of viability. Yeah, a baby can 169 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.440 be killed in an abortion, but viability is up to the doctor and subjectives. 170 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.830 Most real think it's around twenty three, twenty five weeks, something like 171 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:35.710 that. But but so again, that's another demonstration of what the abolitionists would 172 00:13:35.710 --> 00:13:41.539 just be furious with. It is that. Oh, but it's okay before, 173 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:45.580 you know, a day before their viable. and WHO's to determine viability? 174 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:48.659 Yeah, yeah, of course that's a valid or it is a very 175 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:52.019 valid art trusting. Sure, the quote doctor, I'm using air quotes here, 176 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:56.610 guys, right, and the doctors that do abortions and abortion clinics, 177 00:13:56.649 --> 00:14:00.049 people you get paid to murder children for money, are going to do the 178 00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.490 right thing. And all, this baby's viable. And let's let mean, 179 00:14:03.529 --> 00:14:05.450 what does that even? Well, I'd also like to know how they would 180 00:14:05.450 --> 00:14:09.730 be able to determine that the baby's in the womb. Yeah, how do 181 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:13.519 they know if the babiest viable? They don't. They don't. It's ludicrous. 182 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.679 Yeah, and of course I think we're making the argument for the immediate 183 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.399 ast against the incrementalists. Say this. Those ridiculous and a lot of times 184 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:26.389 when things are legislations thrown out there, some judge strikes it down and it 185 00:14:26.509 --> 00:14:28.789 really doesn't matter anyway. And I get that point too, and I agree, 186 00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.269 and that's one of the reasons why I tend to lean that way. 187 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:37.190 Yeah, however, I wish they just from experience, I have seen babies 188 00:14:37.309 --> 00:14:39.980 saved right here, you know, just you hundred, fifty yards or so 189 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:43.259 down the road from where we're sitting right now, the busy subortion clinic in 190 00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:48.539 the southeast. I've seen women turned away right who came on board the mobile 191 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:52.059 dress on unit to see their baby and and get our resources and connect with 192 00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.490 us. We're able to share the gospel with them who were turned away because 193 00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:58.049 they were, you know, past nineteen weeks and six days. So I 194 00:14:58.169 --> 00:15:03.210 can't discount those lives that were saved either. But you know, I think 195 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:09.480 one of the points in this story of the exodus that we can take a 196 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.159 lot out of it. There's a lot there, oh man, the story 197 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.759 of the exodus and the children of Israel going through the wilderness, the parting 198 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.440 down to the parting of the Red Sea. I mean, and I believe 199 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.990 it's First Corinthians, chapter ten, Paul uses as an example of baptism and 200 00:15:22.629 --> 00:15:24.389 the rock. He says it is Christ who was with them in the Wilderness, 201 00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:28.350 and there's a lot of stuff there that you can dig out and in 202 00:15:28.389 --> 00:15:30.549 the particular, I think, in this subject to yeah, you know, 203 00:15:30.590 --> 00:15:33.429 the children of Israel, the incrementalist or the the mediatists, sorry might say. 204 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.899 Well, the children of Isra wondered in the desert for forty years. 205 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.980 We've been wondering in the Wilderness of trying to abolish abortion in this country for 206 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:46.220 forty seven years, you know. And so, you know, what do 207 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:50.769 we say to that? How do you how would you think anycrementalists of respond 208 00:15:50.809 --> 00:15:52.649 to that? Yeah, because it's true, that that is true. We 209 00:15:52.769 --> 00:15:56.090 still haven't ended this thing. Yeah, you know, I guess the best 210 00:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.730 response that I can find biblically as the hardest deceitful above all else who can 211 00:16:00.809 --> 00:16:04.799 know it? Yeah, and that we are as sinful fallen world. Yeah, 212 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.120 and and it's not a perfect world, not even close, and it 213 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.679 won't be until we're all in heaven. Yeah, and the new world. 214 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.919 It is here. Yeah, so heavens in the new earth. That's right. 215 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:23.629 So the A, the sad reality, is because we're working in a 216 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:29.350 fallen world. That that the perfect outcome that we want and we want now. 217 00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:34.299 Well, you're working with a fallen world, yeah, and an in 218 00:16:34.419 --> 00:16:40.580 a fallen and broken system. As far as the the government general, styll 219 00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:44.419 and and broken. You know, people who are in the government, the 220 00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:52.370 politicians. So I think it becomes I think the Exeter story is really a 221 00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:56.730 good one, because why did they wander for forty years? Yeah, they 222 00:16:56.809 --> 00:17:03.320 wandered for forty years because they were sinful disobedient, rebellious and God was teaching 223 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:10.079 them really critical things about himself and about them. Yeah, absolutely. And 224 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.950 while is can can we make the same parallel with what's happening with abortion? 225 00:17:15.029 --> 00:17:19.710 I don't. I don't know, but I I know that God is working 226 00:17:19.869 --> 00:17:25.710 on all of us. Yeah, and in the same way we are. 227 00:17:26.029 --> 00:17:30.140 We are a fallen people that are seeking to follow God imperfect yeah, yeah, 228 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:36.819 absolutely so. In this as we're talking about the Exodus Story and the 229 00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:41.380 conquest of the promised land. HMM, in this story, is God and 230 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:47.490 immediateist or an incrementalist? Right? And your estimation and what we're reading, 231 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:52.049 what we're talking about? I'll answer the question for you. Okay, I 232 00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:57.450 think at least in one sense, God is an immediateist. He wants immediate 233 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.880 conquest of the promise and he proclaims that at the beginning. Immediately does yeah, 234 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:04.759 Plat, done, deal right. I want you to go in, 235 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:07.640 I want you to take possession of the land, I want you to eject 236 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:14.109 all of the sights, parasites and Gep his side and him the die, 237 00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:17.109 and I late that. Yet they got to be pushed out of the land, 238 00:18:17.269 --> 00:18:19.589 annihilated, gone. I want that so it's almost like, okay, 239 00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:23.910 in in his perfect will, if we're going to separate the wheels of God. 240 00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:26.339 I don't want to get into a theological discussion about that. But in 241 00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:33.700 his perfect wheel he wants it immediately done, but he's willing to he's willing 242 00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:38.140 to settle for an incremental conquest, and that means doesn't lastmistry say that God's 243 00:18:38.140 --> 00:18:41.450 willing to settle for something? You know, I agree with you. I 244 00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:45.289 think that's what we see. If he could have just wiped everybody out, 245 00:18:45.490 --> 00:18:49.609 yeah, and said you didn't listen to me. I wanted immediate conquest. 246 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:56.279 If you'd listen to me, you would all be drinking milk and gobbling honey 247 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:02.319 and and living in in this wonderful, wonderful abundant land. Yeah, but 248 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.759 it's because of your sin, you're disobedience, your intermarrying with the people like 249 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.910 told you to annihilate. You're making peace treaties with the people I told you 250 00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:12.869 to annihilate. I'm just going to get rid of you. But that's not 251 00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:18.230 what happened. It took them seven years, but some of the scholars I 252 00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:23.299 read said it took seven years to settle the promised land and even then it. 253 00:19:23.779 --> 00:19:27.460 They did not completely wipe out their enemies. Like I said, they 254 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:33.500 intermarried, they made peace treaties. They're still enemies of God's people now living 255 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:40.769 in Israel. Yeah. So. So, I think God's heart is probably 256 00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:42.769 an IM mediast. Yeah, he wants all it, just in the same 257 00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:47.410 way as we get into the discussion of salvation. He wants all of us 258 00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:52.160 to come to him immediately, yeah, and and to follow him wholeheartedly and 259 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.799 perfectly. That's his desire, but that's not what we do. Yeah, 260 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.519 and that's not what happened in the settling of the promised land. And instead 261 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:06.720 of just wiping us out and giving up on us, he walked alongside the 262 00:20:07.509 --> 00:20:12.269 his people as they imperfectly settled. Ye, and he and there were blessings 263 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:18.230 that came to them from God as they are imperfectly following his plan. So 264 00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:26.259 I think while his heart is an immediast, his reality with a sinful people 265 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.779 is that it was going to be incremental. Yeah, and I think that 266 00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:34.849 you you have to admit that that is how the Promised Land was settled. 267 00:20:34.890 --> 00:20:38.970 Yeah, was incrementally. Yeah, of course, the the response, since 268 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:42.529 the valid response is what you said before. You know, okay, if 269 00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:47.289 that's how it was. It was an incremental thing. Well, they never 270 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:51.720 really conquered the thing anyway because of all the covenants in the inner marrying and 271 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.400 all that stuff. But you know, God's that the divided kingdom was established 272 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.400 in Israel and the Messiah's line comes after the Line of David. I mean 273 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:07.029 the golden age of Israel was after the conquest and the establishing of God's Kingdom 274 00:21:07.029 --> 00:21:12.190 and God's new man, David in that place of rulership. So yeah, 275 00:21:12.190 --> 00:21:15.029 I mean there's a lot to learn in that and I encourage you guys all 276 00:21:15.150 --> 00:21:18.740 to dig into that story, the story of the exodus, the children of 277 00:21:18.019 --> 00:21:22.019 Israel wandering in the Wilderness. So many spiritual parallels there. Yeah, and 278 00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:25.779 one of the ones actually I want to I want to point out, and 279 00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:27.900 then you sort of touched on it. I love this story, so I 280 00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:30.019 have to point it out. It's one of my favorite stories in the Old 281 00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:34.329 Testament because it's funny but it's also pretty scary, and it's the treaty that 282 00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:37.609 in Joshua, Chapter Nine, the treaty that the children Israel made with the 283 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:42.690 Gibeon, I right, and they were told to like those Gibby Knights as 284 00:21:42.769 --> 00:21:48.599 getting nights out, and it says and talking about the Gidea Knights, says 285 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.640 they work craftily. This is verse four of Chapter Nine. And Joshua, 286 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.319 they work craftily. And went and pretended to be ambassadors and they took old 287 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.160 sacks on their donkeys and old wine skins and and torn and men did old 288 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.990 patches on their sandals, old garments on themselves, and all the bread and 289 00:22:04.109 --> 00:22:07.750 there of their provisions was dry and mouldy. So they got tattered, close 290 00:22:08.309 --> 00:22:11.349 muldy bread to make it look like there were no threat. And they were 291 00:22:11.470 --> 00:22:15.470 from so far away that there were no thread at all. They all trying 292 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:19.220 so long that their sandals were up, their bread was rotten. I mean 293 00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:22.740 it's it's like wow, these people went a long way. They were to 294 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:26.259 really dope that children of Israel. Ba says, Hey, we're not a 295 00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:29.180 thread at all. Just, you know, make a covenant with Hey, 296 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:33.849 we we're not even in that promise and we're not an issue there. And 297 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:37.609 the children of Israel did make a covenant with these people of giving and actually 298 00:22:37.609 --> 00:22:41.289 God told them they'd had to under their covenant. That's right. They couldn't 299 00:22:41.289 --> 00:22:42.650 break this covenant. Made a covenant. God told him they needed honor it. 300 00:22:42.690 --> 00:22:45.839 But Hey, they're going to be a thorn in your side and boil 301 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.759 were they? Yeah, in verse fourteen, it says then the men of 302 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.960 Israel took some of their provisions, but they did not ask counsel of the 303 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.480 Lord. So Joshua made peace with them, made a covenant with them to 304 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.789 let them live, and the rulers of the congregation sword of them. So 305 00:23:00.869 --> 00:23:03.710 here he makes a covenant, but I have it underlined actually my Bible here 306 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:07.789 in verse fourteen. But they did not seek counsel of the Lord, and 307 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.150 that's the problem. They didn't seek God. If they would have sought God, 308 00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:15.500 God would have showed them these people are not from far away. They 309 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:18.059 are actually a threat. They're just from over the other he'll, you know, 310 00:23:18.460 --> 00:23:22.339 and with their multi bread and their tattered clothes, they're just tricking you. 311 00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:26.140 And you know, I think this can be comparative to some of the 312 00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:30.130 politicians out there that claim to be prolife and the want to end abortion. 313 00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:33.650 The fact is they're coming with their tattered closing, their muldy bread, claiming, 314 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:37.450 hey, we're no threat. Actually we're going to benefit you, like 315 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.450 the Gibbeess we're going to be a benefit. You just give us your vote. 316 00:23:40.809 --> 00:23:42.200 Hey, you know, just vote for us, since we're Republicans. 317 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.599 We're going to end this thing. In the reality is they're just using prolife 318 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.920 people, people with a sensitivity toward the unborn, for votes, and the 319 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.480 reality is they have no intention of ending abortion. So that's one of the 320 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:59.029 traps and that's one of the things that I appreciate that abolitionists, that you 321 00:23:59.069 --> 00:24:02.309 know, immediateists, would point out is the hypocrisy of a lot of the 322 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:07.109 politicians and a lot of the legislation. Yeah, however, that does not 323 00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:12.500 mean that there aren't politicians that that at least genuinely believe that incremental steps are 324 00:24:12.619 --> 00:24:18.140 a good thing and that are going to ultimately limit and ultimately end abortion. 325 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.140 There are some good politicians out there and maybe they're misguided, I get it. 326 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:25.410 But in one of the points I think that we that we need to 327 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:26.890 touch on, that we're going to touch on, and we probably already have 328 00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:32.690 just a little bit, is is the contention that's there and the contentious spirit 329 00:24:32.809 --> 00:24:37.250 that's in a lot of the folks who would claim to be immediatests that listen 330 00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:41.319 to as we have this particular persuasion. We need to be patient with people. 331 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.319 We need to understand that not everybody's on the same page with us and 332 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:47.480 it's not going to help if we just say, well, you're not a 333 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:49.279 Christian, then you know, if you don't believe in the immediate abolition of 334 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.029 abortion, you believe that, you know, incremental steps are good in any 335 00:24:53.029 --> 00:24:56.309 way, then you're not a Christian. Thank you. Just don't read Your 336 00:24:56.309 --> 00:24:57.750 Bible and you're not a Christian. Yeah, now, so that's how that's 337 00:24:57.869 --> 00:25:03.869 harsh accusation to bring against people who may very well just not. Maybe they 338 00:25:03.910 --> 00:25:07.029 don't have the same information you've got, maybe not stuttered it as much as 339 00:25:07.069 --> 00:25:10.019 yeah, I certainly. Maybe they have and they've come to a different conclusion. 340 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:12.380 And maybe they have and and it. I think he is what you 341 00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:17.619 underlying in your Bible there seek the Lord, see Lord and in all that 342 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.980 you do. One of the things that I thought of as I was exploring 343 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:26.289 this topic was would what I do out on the sidewalk, where I'm actively 344 00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:33.690 intervening in the abortion minded woman's desire to kill her baby, would it change 345 00:25:34.170 --> 00:25:41.279 if I was an immediaist or a incrementalist right and my work would not. 346 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.880 Yeah, our work would not the people on the front lines would still share 347 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.789 the gospel. If there're a Gospel Focus Ministry, as ours is, they 348 00:25:49.829 --> 00:25:56.390 would still intercede on behalf of that child, based on God's clear word about 349 00:25:56.390 --> 00:26:00.789 the sanctity of that baby's life and the value of that child's life, and 350 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.420 we would still offer hope and help. Yes, so for to see all 351 00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:11.420 the rancor and even hatred of groups who don't agree, yeah, against fellow 352 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:17.180 Christians, does damage, I think. I'm not sure if it does more 353 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:22.569 damage than good in fact. Yeah, because the world is watchain and and 354 00:26:22.769 --> 00:26:26.730 weird to be known by our love. Yeah, love and unity. And 355 00:26:26.890 --> 00:26:30.569 you know, some folks might will say, Hey, love and unity, 356 00:26:30.650 --> 00:26:33.240 that's all fine and Danny, but we're not supposed to be unified with evil 357 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.279 and by you know, folks who would, I think, be more inclined 358 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.960 to the abolitionist persuasion would say, you know, the Pro Life Movement is 359 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400 just plain evil. Yeah, and they for we can't be associated with it. 360 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.069 You know, Feesians five, was it seventeen? Having a fellowship with 361 00:26:48.069 --> 00:26:49.269 him, Froo, for works of darkness rather exposed. I think it's five, 362 00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:52.990 seventeen. Five seven something. You guys can you guys can look it 363 00:26:52.029 --> 00:26:56.309 up. This is an Effasian steps of us has, yeah, an efficians 364 00:26:56.309 --> 00:27:00.069 chapter follow. So we're not supposed to have fellowship with him. Frou faction 365 00:27:00.109 --> 00:27:02.859 of darkness that I might say. You know, the pro life movements unfruit 366 00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:06.140 for work of darkness. But you know what, I know too many people. 367 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:08.619 Yeah, and it's not about experience. But these are godly people who 368 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:14.619 whose lives line up with the scriptures and who live their hearts after the Lord 369 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:18.170 and are loving them their neighbor as themselves. Who would say their pro life? 370 00:27:18.170 --> 00:27:21.170 You know, say I'm pro life. Somebody asked me, are you 371 00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:23.690 pro life about? Yeah, it's not because, you know, I agree 372 00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:29.089 with everything the quote pro life movement does, but it's because people know what 373 00:27:29.170 --> 00:27:30.000 you're saying. Hey, you know. If you say, well, no, 374 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.119 I might abolitionists, well then you got to you get into this whole 375 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.440 big explanation of what that even means and why that's similar to abolition of slavery. 376 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.519 But but this and that, and this and that and all the reasons 377 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.470 why you don't say your pro life just like okay, I'm pro life. 378 00:27:45.069 --> 00:27:51.710 I'm Christian first and because I'm a Christian, I'm prolife, I'm anti abortion. 379 00:27:51.950 --> 00:27:53.670 I have no problem with some I call me anti abortion, like you 380 00:27:53.670 --> 00:28:00.140 can call me anti sex trafficking, anti lying, anti stealing. I'm antie 381 00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:02.980 those things. Things are that God is against. I'm against you know. 382 00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:06.220 So, yeah, it's a little caveat there, but yeah, there's a 383 00:28:06.259 --> 00:28:11.059 passage and I think we've pointed this out in some other podcast, but it's 384 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:14.650 so important, I think, for we, the Christian minister, for somebody 385 00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:21.690 WHO's ministering in on the streets, on the sidewalks entered whatever whatever context you're 386 00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:23.170 minishing. The GOSAM were all called to be Christian ministers, by the way, 387 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.000 but you know I mean. Yeah, and this is in Second Timothy, 388 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.359 Chapter Two and Verse Twenty Four. And The Servant of the Lord must 389 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:37.759 not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach patient and humility, 390 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.789 correcting those who are in opposition. So in humility, correcting those are opposition, 391 00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:45.430 if God will perhaps grant them repentance so that they may know the truth, 392 00:28:45.950 --> 00:28:48.430 that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, 393 00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:51.869 having been taken captive by him. To do as well and so we 394 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:56.380 have to in humility. If there are people that don't embrace things that we 395 00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.059 know to be Biblical Truth and Biblical standards, we have to, in humility 396 00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:04.579 and with gentleness, answer them. And just going on facebook and being a 397 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:11.410 keyboard warrior in blasting everybody who doesn't agree with your persuasion is not obeying that 398 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.410 scripture. This is brother Paul who wrote this to Timothy, who suffered a 399 00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:22.250 lot of persecution. He suffered a lot of accusations from Jews and gentiles, 400 00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:25.880 and yet he's given to Timothy this charge. This is how you ought to 401 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.519 be. Got To be gentle. Yeah, I definitely had that sense from 402 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.839 Carl who you interview. That was my first time, I believe, meeting 403 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.160 him and he was a gentle soul and he seemed to have a very kind 404 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.150 and open yeah, exchange. Yeah, if I listen, I've seen the 405 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:45.549 nasty on both sides. I've seen the nasty on the prolife side. I 406 00:29:45.670 --> 00:29:49.630 seen the nasty on the your right, abolitionist right media side and the nasty. 407 00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:53.140 Listen, guys, it doesn't help. It doesn't help one bit. 408 00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:59.460 It makes it makes the whole thing, the whole anti abortion movement. Yeah, 409 00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:03.940 maybe everybody would be under that umbrella. I don't know, look bad. 410 00:30:03.980 --> 00:30:06.940 Yeah, and it's not all about outward appearances. Is Ultimate. It's 411 00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.650 about honoring God. That should be the chief concern of everything, not even 412 00:30:10.690 --> 00:30:14.490 the abolition of abortion. Yeah, listen, if your chief goal in life 413 00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:18.369 is to abolish abortion, you're missing the mark. Your chief goal in life 414 00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.640 should be to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. That should be your chief goal. 415 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:27.559 And you glorify him by, you know, abolishing abortion, by Proclam 416 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:32.799 proclamation of the Gospel, by standing in front of an abortion kinic and trying 417 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.269 to say babies. But and wasn't it Jesus himself who said a house divided 418 00:30:36.349 --> 00:30:40.230 against it itself will not stand? Yeah, and you know, you look 419 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:45.190 at okay, on both sides are people most I would say, that that 420 00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:52.180 deeply desire those babies to be rescued. Yeah, and so if if we're 421 00:30:52.220 --> 00:31:02.740 doing a good work and and babies are are being saved and the other campus 422 00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:07.250 saying that this is evil, well, that's you're working against what is really 423 00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:12.130 a joint purpose. Yeah, common purpose, which is that God would be 424 00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:18.960 glorified first and that babies would be saved and and and and come to abortion. 425 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.400 Yeah, so well, should we? Should we hop into the second 426 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.480 yeah, absolutely. And Yeah, so we're really not talking about an event, 427 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.150 like historical event in the sense that, you know, we're doing at 428 00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:36.910 individuals being say, which is a horse historical event, based on the historical 429 00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:40.589 event of Jesus Christ Crucifixion, correct resurrection. We're talking about, you know, 430 00:31:40.670 --> 00:31:48.059 a biblical thing that happens, a biblical construct that we see here in 431 00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:52.619 the Bible, and it's salvation basically as well. That's right, and that's 432 00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:56.819 yours, in to a mediatist and incrementalist understanding of abolishing abortion. Yeah, 433 00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.140 of abortion. And the more that I looked at at the more I thought 434 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:07.250 of the immediist, immediatist position in what Jesus says on the cross, so 435 00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:15.720 pivotal event. He, Jesus, dies on the Cross and as he is 436 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:21.720 about to give up his spirit, he says the words it is finished. 437 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:28.960 Yeah, and in part that is it's done, his life is finished here 438 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.750 on earth as a as a human. He's referring not only to his death, 439 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:37.630 yeah, but to his fact, to the fact that that sacrifice that 440 00:32:37.789 --> 00:32:45.019 was necessarcessary to secure the salvation of the world through faith in him is done. 441 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:51.059 Yeah, when he dies on the cross, the sacrifices made, it 442 00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:55.180 is finished. Yeah, it is done, it is complete, and all 443 00:32:55.460 --> 00:33:00.009 who submit their lives to him and accept that what he has done on their 444 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:07.650 behalf are saved. Yeah, so it was an immediate moment it in terms 445 00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:10.970 of our discussion of immediate versus incremental, there was a moment where he says 446 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:16.920 it is finished. Yeah, all that folutness. And yet you know, 447 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.799 if you look at at lots of verses in the Bible and think about the 448 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:30.230 sanctification of God's people, it is an ongoing, gradual, incremental process. 449 00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:35.029 Yeah, just like lundering. So one of the things that I'll say, 450 00:33:36.269 --> 00:33:37.829 and I like to use just everyday language, said, okay, no one 451 00:33:37.869 --> 00:33:42.940 get offended that I'm not using, like you, all these Greek terms and 452 00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.220 all this, but basically I'll say when you signed up for Christianity, you 453 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:50.099 signed up for one thing. He signed up to become more like Jesus h 454 00:33:50.380 --> 00:33:52.980 and that is God's commitment to you. Your commitment to him is Lord, 455 00:33:53.660 --> 00:33:57.849 I'm sinful and I need to be saved, conform me to the image of 456 00:33:57.849 --> 00:34:00.130 Christ. His commitmenties use. I'm going to conform you to the image of 457 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:04.410 Christ. That's right, and that's not about yeah, but not immediately. 458 00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:08.969 Be Be transformed with the renewing of your mind. Yeah, so it's not 459 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:15.119 in with it's not an immediate renewal. It's renewing. You are renewing. 460 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.840 It is a process. Yeah, and do not be conformed to the world, 461 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:23.309 but be transformed in an ongoing process. So think about Roman seven, 462 00:34:23.389 --> 00:34:27.070 one thousand nine hundred and twenty five. Okay, that that's a good one. 463 00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:35.389 That's where Paul is is expressing the struggle of we are saved and there 464 00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:38.219 is a moment at which we submit our lives to the Lord. Okay, 465 00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:43.380 well, versus, but that was Roman seven nineteen to twenty five. Okay, 466 00:34:43.460 --> 00:34:46.780 you know. But from that point forward we are on a lifelong journey 467 00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:53.610 to reach what God has promised, and incremental journey and in because we are 468 00:34:54.250 --> 00:35:00.690 still in the flesh and and there's always that flesh nature that is struggling against 469 00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:07.010 the spirit of God. Yeah, that God's spiritual renewal in us. So, 470 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.639 yeah, those are Roman seven nineteen to twenty five. Okay, yeah, 471 00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:15.000 I read that right here. So Romans Nineteen to twenty five, for 472 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:16.519 the good that I will do I do not do, but the evil that 473 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:21.909 I will not do that I practice. Now, if I do what I 474 00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:24.909 will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but 475 00:35:24.989 --> 00:35:29.829 sin who dwells in me. And I find then a law that evil is 476 00:35:29.949 --> 00:35:32.750 present with with me, the one who wills to do good, for I 477 00:35:32.909 --> 00:35:36.179 delight in the Law of God, according to the inward man, but I 478 00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:38.420 see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and 479 00:35:38.579 --> 00:35:43.179 bringing me into captivity to the Law of sin which is in my members, 480 00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.019 a wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of 481 00:35:46.179 --> 00:35:51.690 death? Verse Twenty Five, I think God through Jesus Christ, Our Lord. 482 00:35:52.010 --> 00:35:54.050 So then, with the mind, with the mind, I myself serve 483 00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:57.769 the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. So 484 00:35:57.929 --> 00:36:01.769 he's talking about this struggle of doing right and and choosing to do wrong and 485 00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:07.159 and ultimately God's commitment to us. Yeah, that he's going to bring us 486 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.800 into a place of conformity to Christ if will surrender to him. So it 487 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.079 does. It doesn't happen instantly. It's he's struggling. Yeah, he's struggles, 488 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:17.630 as we all. I I sure can relate to those verses. I 489 00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:22.150 I know I'm going to struggle till the day I die. I think I 490 00:36:22.030 --> 00:36:25.670 win more often than I lose, the more that I am transformed into the 491 00:36:25.789 --> 00:36:29.630 likeness of Christ. I did. I told you the other day I was 492 00:36:29.750 --> 00:36:32.300 I was round down the road, I was following my phone to my destination 493 00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:37.500 and when I got there, my phone says you've arrived and I was like, 494 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:42.739 where you been? I've arrived a long time ago, Sirie, I've 495 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.340 arrived. No, we've not arrived. I've not arrived. I have to 496 00:36:45.380 --> 00:36:47.289 argue with my phone. I'm not a rob. I'm sorry, I'm at 497 00:36:47.329 --> 00:36:50.449 my destination, but the Lord is still working on me. You know, 498 00:36:50.769 --> 00:36:52.489 you'LD tongue. He still working on me. That's the reality. That's the 499 00:36:52.570 --> 00:36:57.969 process of sanctification. As as we, like you said, as we mature 500 00:36:58.050 --> 00:37:01.400 in Christ, we become more and more like Jesus, but we're also ever 501 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.119 reminded of our inadequacies, in our weaknesses, knowing the like, the closer 502 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.159 we get to Christ, the more we see we need him right. So, 503 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:15.119 even though salvation, I would say, wow, the Bible would say 504 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:17.510 the salvation being born of the spirit, is an immediate thing, the process 505 00:37:17.590 --> 00:37:22.190 of conforming to Christ is an incremental thing. Is God is doing is it's 506 00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:25.469 almost like, again, not using theological terms, just everyday language. It's 507 00:37:25.469 --> 00:37:30.099 almost like God'll take what he can get right and at the more that will 508 00:37:30.179 --> 00:37:32.500 surrender to him, the more he'll conforms to the image of Christ. And 509 00:37:32.659 --> 00:37:37.500 again, the ultimate goal is that we're conformed to the image of Christ. 510 00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:44.289 And it's all a tapestry. And you know, we can't see this beautiful 511 00:37:44.289 --> 00:37:49.010 tapestry that God has created as a finished work. We see that tapestry as 512 00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:52.449 it's being woven and and there's all these different threads and all of us are 513 00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:57.929 part of that tapestry that's being woven. So what is happening to US during 514 00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:05.400 this process? This incremental clearly an incremental process is something that others around us 515 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:09.360 are affected by. Yeah, and you never know how those struggles and people 516 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:15.230 watching you go through those struggles and watching you prevail and sometimes watching you fail, 517 00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:20.550 how that affects their relationship with the Lord and they are understanding of the 518 00:38:20.670 --> 00:38:24.190 Lord and it. He weaves it all together beautifully and I think that that 519 00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:31.460 is throughout the Bible, every incremental process, the the the Israelites entering the 520 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:37.860 Promised Land and sanctification as we grow in a likeness of Christ. Every incremental 521 00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:45.050 process not only brings us closer to the Lord and is a benefit to us, 522 00:38:45.289 --> 00:38:50.849 but it benefits those around us who were watching and who are also seeing 523 00:38:51.010 --> 00:38:54.690 God, maybe in a way that they wouldn't see if it had happened instantly. 524 00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:01.519 Yeah, so I and I think that's a maybe a what would be 525 00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:08.880 the word? The beauty of incrementalism, okay, is is that if God 526 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:15.349 had shown me all my sin all at once, I would have committed suicide. 527 00:39:15.389 --> 00:39:20.230 Yeah, because it was so horrimless. Yeah, it was too much. 528 00:39:20.710 --> 00:39:24.019 Even now, when he's like peeling back the layers as as I remember 529 00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:29.500 them, there are still times that I still cringe and and think I couldn't 530 00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:31.940 have handled this before I knew God better. Yeah, but I know that 531 00:39:32.059 --> 00:39:35.539 I'm forgiven, I know that I'm saved and I know that I'm on a 532 00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:40.210 journey. Yeah, so God's I think God is clearly in that area and 533 00:39:40.409 --> 00:39:45.050 incrementalist, not because it was his desire, but because he's, like you 534 00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:49.409 said, he'll take us where we are or I'll take what he can get. 535 00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:53.639 Well, what he's got is people who are steeped in sin, with 536 00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:00.000 with deceitful hearts. Yeah, and he his desire might be that we would 537 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:07.469 immediately be changed, but the reality is it's a process. So it contrasts 538 00:40:07.630 --> 00:40:13.789 to that. Is Hebrews Thousand and ten. Okay, you want to find 539 00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:15.989 that? Yeah, well, you got in reading. I've got okay, 540 00:40:15.989 --> 00:40:19.789 yeah, I've got it. By this we will have been sanctified through the 541 00:40:19.989 --> 00:40:23.739 offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Yeah, and that 542 00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:28.619 just kind of sounds like it almost negates what I just said. Right, 543 00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.219 once for all. It's immediate. Yeah, it's immediate again, just his 544 00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:37.929 by it we will have been sanctified through the offering of his body once for 545 00:40:38.090 --> 00:40:47.090 all. So contrast that with Philippians two twelve. Therefore, my beloved, 546 00:40:47.449 --> 00:40:52.480 as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence 547 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.880 but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and 548 00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.239 trembling. Well, I thought it was once for all. Yeah, why 549 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.829 are we working things out? Yeah, so, so there's a there's a 550 00:41:05.030 --> 00:41:08.070 there's a right now and not yet concept to a lot of the things in 551 00:41:08.190 --> 00:41:12.710 the scriptures. You know, there's a right now and not yet. In, 552 00:41:13.389 --> 00:41:16.909 you know, in the children of Israels and their story from the Wilderness 553 00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:20.940 to the Promised Land, there's a right now and not yet. As far 554 00:41:20.940 --> 00:41:23.059 as salvation, you know, some folks say salvation comes in a couple of 555 00:41:23.139 --> 00:41:25.940 different tenses. You know, you have been saved, you are being saved 556 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:30.980 and you will be saved, and that's true. I believe the Greek Lens 557 00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:34.250 itself to that. Yeah, so you know, there is this concept and 558 00:41:34.570 --> 00:41:37.889 I think you know, even though we've probably not will, we've not sought 559 00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.409 to answer the questions, got an incrementalist or an immediate test, we've hopefully 560 00:41:43.530 --> 00:41:46.840 spurred some thought for you guys just to be thinking about this thing biblically and, 561 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:52.159 more than anything, to help people to wheel back some of the accusations 562 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.639 and some of the you know, attributing evil motives to people, and that 563 00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:59.280 certainly I would think there are people in both camps that have some evil motives, 564 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.190 because you got centers in each camp, you know, and you got 565 00:42:01.269 --> 00:42:06.349 people who maybe not don't even know the Lord and in both camps and just 566 00:42:06.789 --> 00:42:09.510 are on board with some kind of movement or something like that. But you 567 00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:13.789 know you've got you got fallen human beings with a fallen understanding, a limited 568 00:42:13.789 --> 00:42:17.059 understanding. We've got to be careful with our accusations that we throw at people. 569 00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:21.460 Yeah, and if we have a particular conviction, and we should have 570 00:42:21.579 --> 00:42:23.539 be people of conviction, it shouldn't be just anything goes. Nothing's a big 571 00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:27.539 deal. This is a big deal. Portions a big deal. It's we 572 00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:31.050 need to be happy these conversations. There needs to be debates about these conversations. 573 00:42:31.530 --> 00:42:35.809 That's how the Church has done it for since the beginning. Yeah, 574 00:42:36.010 --> 00:42:39.489 there's debates about certain theological points and certain things and all of this, and 575 00:42:39.530 --> 00:42:43.929 there should be that. So, so I'm not saying we shouldn't have those 576 00:42:43.929 --> 00:42:46.599 conversations and the exchanges on facebook shouldn't be made. They should be made. 577 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.840 Book should be written in all that stuff. But the accusations against people. 578 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.480 But just because they are not in your camp, that their unbelievers, that 579 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.989 that doesn't honor the Lord and I thought, I think, and you know 580 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:02.630 kind of I wrote a summary of what I came to under stand is as 581 00:43:02.750 --> 00:43:07.789 I grappled with this issue, and I want to read that summary. Okay, 582 00:43:07.869 --> 00:43:14.139 because I think in part both camps there is biblical truth. There could 583 00:43:14.139 --> 00:43:16.619 be biblical support from both sides and I think that's important. So I I 584 00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:22.860 came to the conclusion that God is both an immediate to a mediatist and an 585 00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:28.809 incrementalist, and if he were not the first, we would have no glorious 586 00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:34.409 absolute standard to obtain, yeah, and to strive for. But if he 587 00:43:34.650 --> 00:43:39.289 were not the second, none of us would be transformed and conformed to his 588 00:43:39.530 --> 00:43:46.559 likeness. Yeah, so God is is an immediatist and an incrementalist in some 589 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:51.000 ways. So both camps can hate us there. Yeah. So, like 590 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:52.760 I said when we started, I think we're going to make some right off 591 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.949 and everybody, which is fine. If you're offended, that's fine. Let 592 00:43:57.989 --> 00:44:00.469 us know why you're offended. Shoot me an email. D Parks at cities 593 00:44:00.510 --> 00:44:06.909 for lifecom. Shoot Vicky and email. She's easier to pick on because you'll 594 00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:10.139 just start the question ever to me actually think and we'll debate it. We'll 595 00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:14.460 talk about it. Yeah, because the organ cities for lifecom want to hear 596 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:15.980 from you guys. We are going to throw this article that Vicky rode out 597 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:20.579 on our sidewalks for life site and we'll probably throw it up on our sidewalks 598 00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:24.250 for life facebook page. We just want these things to be a blessing. 599 00:44:24.289 --> 00:44:30.210 Want to spur thought, Biblical thought, and encourage people to to honor the 600 00:44:30.289 --> 00:44:34.570 Lord in their actions on the I'dewalk but also in their actions on the social 601 00:44:34.650 --> 00:44:38.079 media sphere. But we do want to hear you guys responses to this. 602 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.679 Did we miss something? Is there something we we glazed over that we needed 603 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.760 to focus on a little more? Are there other scriptures that come to mind 604 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:50.320 and there's a lot that you think are important about this subject? We'd love 605 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.639 to hear him. So you can shoot me an email, shoot Vicki an 606 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:55.309 email. But you know, good check out too is we always talk about 607 00:44:55.309 --> 00:44:59.150 our sidewalks for life site. Get checked that out. Sidewalks the number four 608 00:44:59.349 --> 00:45:02.590 lifecom. It's the sidewalk counseling website. That's what it's for, to encourage 609 00:45:02.630 --> 00:45:07.300 people to be Gospel centered voices at the abortion clinics. You can check US 610 00:45:07.300 --> 00:45:10.420 OUT LOCALLY CHARLOTTE DOT cities for Life Dot Org. But we hope you guys 611 00:45:10.420 --> 00:45:20.579 are blessed and listening and until next time, be blessed. Gift for Love, 612 00:45:23.289 --> 00:45:31.730 give me our loft for gratitude. I know it will cost me my 613 00:45:32.090 --> 00:45:39.480 love. Nothing's too precious. And some met you