Is God An Incrementalist or Immediatist?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours s and me, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.230 Lord, I am your. Biblically speaking, is God an incrementalist or an 3 00:00:11.230 --> 00:00:15.269 immediate test when it comes to the issue of abortion? What are those terms? 4 00:00:15.310 --> 00:00:18.989 Even me will stick with us as we explore this topic and talk through 5 00:00:19.070 --> 00:00:34.420 this thing biblically. I felt show tassish touch your welcome to the Gospel Center 6 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:39.530 per life podcast. We're going to talk about an important subject, because all 7 00:00:39.570 --> 00:00:42.250 of the subjects that we talked about are important. Of course, I feel 8 00:00:42.250 --> 00:00:45.770 like they are anyway. Yep, and it's one that has been flying around, 9 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:49.490 I guess, in the bloggest sphere and the social media sphere and all 10 00:00:49.530 --> 00:00:53.439 of that, and it's the subject and we're sort of tagging it. Is 11 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:59.359 God an a mediatist or an incrementalist? And you who are listening may or 12 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.640 may not know what those terms are. Actually did a podcast interview with Flip 13 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.909 Benham some months ago where he talks about the dangers of incrementalism. We did 14 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:15.989 an interview with with Carl who's with abolish human abortion, and called Carl Turnmeier, 15 00:01:17.390 --> 00:01:21.620 who's with abolish human abortion here in North Carolina, and he talked about 16 00:01:21.620 --> 00:01:26.739 abolition the abolitionist stance against per life stance. We see you on our facebook 17 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:32.659 news feeds and social media feeds, a lot of arguments and stuff, you 18 00:01:32.739 --> 00:01:37.170 know, even accusations against, you know, the abolitionist against the prolife folks. 19 00:01:37.290 --> 00:01:41.170 I'm even pro life folks against abolitionist folks. And really the the debate 20 00:01:41.450 --> 00:01:48.760 is about the immediate abolition of abortion or incremental steps to to end abortion in 21 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.439 our country. And you know, there's a lot out there is a lot 22 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.480 that people can read. There's a lot of stuff you know. Maybe you 23 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:57.319 know, if you reach out to us, we can point you in the 24 00:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.560 right direction. Some things you can read, but I think the most important 25 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.709 thing to read when it comes to subjects like this that are very important is 26 00:02:04.790 --> 00:02:07.229 the Bible. And that's what we're going to be looking at it from a 27 00:02:07.389 --> 00:02:14.509 perspective of not just politics and what politicians say and and what works, because, 28 00:02:14.550 --> 00:02:16.620 you know, pragmatism can be a big, big time trap and it 29 00:02:16.699 --> 00:02:21.539 can cause us to compromise the Gospel and compromise truth. So we don't want 30 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:23.780 to do that. But what does the Bible say? Is God himself and 31 00:02:23.939 --> 00:02:30.930 incrementalist or an immediatist? And I think at the end of this podcast will 32 00:02:30.009 --> 00:02:35.250 probably have offended everybody. Right. That's our which is our goal really not 33 00:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.409 what our goal? What we do best is offending people, making people angry. 34 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:40.889 If you're offend, listen. At the end of the day, if 35 00:02:42.050 --> 00:02:45.280 you listen this podcast and you're offended by it, please let us know. 36 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.639 Listen either either way. As far as incrementalists and immediatist I'm willing to be 37 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:57.919 convinced. I'm open minded either way and just kind of let the cat out 38 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.909 of the bag. I'm more tinned toward the immediatist abolitionists. Persuasion, but 39 00:03:04.710 --> 00:03:07.310 also no, practically, there's some things that, you know, the Lord 40 00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:12.189 uses, but I'm willing to be convinced either way. As long as you're 41 00:03:12.189 --> 00:03:15.340 arguing from the scriptures. I don't care about your opinion, I don't care 42 00:03:15.379 --> 00:03:21.500 about your experience, I don't care about what your grandma believes. I care 43 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:23.780 about what the Bible says. I don't know you do too, because yes, 44 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:28.090 and you've got an article which we're going to hopefully put up on sidewalks 45 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:31.090 for life right in the coming weeks that sort of lays out, I think, 46 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:37.009 really a very good case. So let's jump into it. Yeah, 47 00:03:37.129 --> 00:03:38.930 so I you know, I'll be honest, I've been doing this now for 48 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:46.159 six, six years, really very involved in some counseling and and prolife ministry, 49 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.479 and I had really no idea that this rift between I didn't know there 50 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:57.629 were these two camps about how to bring about the end of abortion and I 51 00:03:57.789 --> 00:04:02.030 just thought everyone was kind of all together it. Clearly anyone working in this 52 00:04:02.189 --> 00:04:05.949 sort of ministry wants abortion end. We hate abortion, we know it's youthful, 53 00:04:05.990 --> 00:04:11.939 we know it's wrong, it's against God's clear commands. So so I 54 00:04:12.099 --> 00:04:17.180 really approach this as as someone who is pretty ignorant about both of these positions. 55 00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:21.220 But I will tell you that it dismays me when I saw some of 56 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:28.410 the what I see as attacks on on fellow Chris Christians and and I do 57 00:04:28.569 --> 00:04:33.370 feel dismay grieves me. Yeah, a house divided us against itself cannot stand. 58 00:04:34.810 --> 00:04:40.759 So I think it's a very important subject and what I did is exactly 59 00:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.639 what you said. I went through scripture and I tried to determine really kind 60 00:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.040 of in a sense, well, what is God? Yeah, is he 61 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:59.189 immediate test or is he an incrementalist? And two main events biblical events came 62 00:04:59.629 --> 00:05:02.790 to mind that I think could make a compelling case for one of the other 63 00:05:02.870 --> 00:05:08.779 okay, and those were the the exodus into the promised land, yeah, 64 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:15.019 and the conquering and settlement of the Promised Land. That's one thing. That's 65 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:19.180 one thing largely told in the book of Joshua. And then the second thing 66 00:05:19.699 --> 00:05:27.290 is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, okay, and the salvation 67 00:05:27.970 --> 00:05:31.009 and sanctification of his people. All right. So sort of an old testament 68 00:05:31.129 --> 00:05:34.720 picture, HMM, and a new testament picture, right, okay, right, 69 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:46.920 yeah, so God promises for the first time in the Bible to secure 70 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.949 the land for his people. Okay, in right at the beginning of the 71 00:05:49.990 --> 00:05:55.629 Bible, in in Genesis, right, and that specific promise, I think 72 00:05:55.790 --> 00:06:00.829 is important and to read. And that's Genesis fifteen versus eighteen to twenty one. 73 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:08.339 All ready got those, okay. Yeah. So Genesis Eighteen through three, 74 00:06:08.500 --> 00:06:11.939 twenty one, okay, says on that same day the Lord made a 75 00:06:12.019 --> 00:06:15.019 covenant with Abraham, saying to your descendants, I have given this land from 76 00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:20.290 the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates, the Canaanites 77 00:06:20.850 --> 00:06:28.170 or the Kenites, sorry, in the Kenyasites and the Kamonodites and the HIVOTITES 78 00:06:28.250 --> 00:06:32.800 and the priserites and the refree them the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Gurgishites 79 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.000 and the jebusites and all of those sites. That was purposely just to hear 80 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.000 you say you on the me to be thank you. That was very humbling. 81 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.439 Okay, so look at the beginning. Okay, your descendants, I 82 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.790 have given this lamb. Okay, okay, it's it's pres intense, it's 83 00:06:48.870 --> 00:06:53.550 Dawne. Yeah, it's it's an imman right thing. It's immediate, it 84 00:06:54.430 --> 00:07:01.740 is absolute, it's complete. And the interesting thing is this promises made before 85 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:06.699 Abraham had borne a single child. It's actually why he's still called Abram, 86 00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:13.860 right is he called jelled? Abraham hadn't even become Abraham yet. So God 87 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:20.529 has a goal and ambition and it will be completely accomplished. The deliverance, 88 00:07:20.610 --> 00:07:25.050 though, is many, many, many years down the road. Yeah, 89 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:29.290 in God's eyes it's already a done deal. Yeah, right, God's outside 90 00:07:29.290 --> 00:07:32.879 of time. But this promise says the land is given, he has been 91 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.800 given. But the reality is it took actually four hundred and seventy years from 92 00:07:41.879 --> 00:07:47.189 that promise before the first victory over a city, Jericho. Yeah, in 93 00:07:47.310 --> 00:07:54.110 the Promised Land, a hundred and seventy years. And even that first victory 94 00:07:54.709 --> 00:07:59.019 was not immediate. You remember the famous story of the soldiers mark. God 95 00:07:59.139 --> 00:08:03.939 tells them you're going to March seven times around that city before they would blow 96 00:08:03.939 --> 00:08:07.300 the trumpets and and Jericho would be seven days. Yeah, what did I 97 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:11.420 say? Seven days is yeah, that I'm ATT right. Seven days around 98 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:16.209 that city before they overthrew the city. Why not immediately? Yeah, why? 99 00:08:16.209 --> 00:08:18.730 I'm really God could have taken over Jericho immediately, right, sure, 100 00:08:18.730 --> 00:08:26.850 right. So a similar question can really even be asked about the whole promised 101 00:08:26.850 --> 00:08:31.600 land process. How did he bring about the conquest of the Promised Land? 102 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.159 Did he lead his peed pole instantly out of Egypt? Well, it took 103 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:43.149 some took some prom some process ultimately bring judgment upon Egypt and bring the children 104 00:08:43.190 --> 00:08:46.629 of Israel out. HMM. And it took how many years? Forty years, 105 00:08:46.669 --> 00:08:50.350 right, forty years. That was supposed to be a trip where that 106 00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:54.590 is a trip that can take eleven days. Yeah, that's whatever ridden commentaries. 107 00:08:54.710 --> 00:09:01.299 Right. So it took forty years and God clearly didn't take the most 108 00:09:01.820 --> 00:09:07.340 immediate route he didn't take the most direct route. He took them on a 109 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:16.169 maddeningly long circuitest adversity filled root for forty years. Yeah, and when they 110 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:22.970 when they finally get to the Promised Land, most of those adults, right, 111 00:09:24.169 --> 00:09:26.559 that had been led for those forty years, are not allowed to enter, 112 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.320 right. Yeah, Promised Land. Yeah, even before we go much 113 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.679 deeper into this, because there's some I believe there's some comparison, some good 114 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.110 comparison here, between per life, abolition, incrementalism, immediatism and that sort 115 00:09:41.110 --> 00:09:43.509 of thing. Let's real quick, though, define our terms. Okay, 116 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.590 we didn't do that. Oh, okay, when we need to do that, 117 00:09:46.710 --> 00:09:50.230 sure, yeah, when we're talking about a mediatist, what we're saying 118 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:56.139 is basically that we want the immediate abolition of abortion, we want abortion to 119 00:09:56.220 --> 00:10:03.299 be made illegal in this these United States, for the unborn child to be 120 00:10:03.419 --> 00:10:07.610 deemed a human being with full rights as a any other human being would be 121 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:13.529 in this country, and for people to stop murdering them. And that to 122 00:10:13.649 --> 00:10:18.169 me, praise God, that's what I want. So I mean that would 123 00:10:18.169 --> 00:10:20.210 be a good definition, don't you think? May I think? Yes, 124 00:10:20.409 --> 00:10:24.120 listening would jimmy was a different definition. But and and they immediate tost would 125 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.480 and they would say that any law that limits abortion is showing that there is 126 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.240 a group of those unborn babies that are somehow of less value. Yeah, 127 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.309 yeah, so if the the exception for rape, for example, limits abortion 128 00:10:37.509 --> 00:10:41.909 except in the case of rape, well, are the babies of rape of 129 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:48.190 less value than the babies that are conceived outside of rape? Right? And 130 00:10:48.309 --> 00:10:50.539 of course not. Right, of course not. They're all of equal value. 131 00:10:50.659 --> 00:10:52.980 Yeah, and you know, Flip said something is that. You did 132 00:10:54.019 --> 00:10:56.019 the interview with him, which you guys, if you hadn't listen to that, 133 00:10:56.059 --> 00:10:58.580 please go back and listen. Yeah, he's basically saying, you know, 134 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:01.740 all this legislation, all this incremental would just define that real quick. 135 00:11:01.820 --> 00:11:07.490 Basically, it means just some steps toward ending abortion. So bands on abortion 136 00:11:07.529 --> 00:11:11.809 at you twenty weeks, bands on abortion at you know, when a heartbeats 137 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.490 detected. Bands on abortion against children, that you can't abord a child just 138 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:20.639 because it's a it's a girl or boy, sex selective abortions, bands on 139 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.360 that sort of thing, bands on parts or the Moor fee. Yeah, 140 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.000 bands based on you can't abort based on a disability and all that stuff and 141 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:33.669 so this would be incremental steps, chipping away really right, chipping away at 142 00:11:33.710 --> 00:11:37.110 abortion, and ultimately the goal, at least I would hope the goal for 143 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.470 for folks who would be in that camp, would be ultimately the end the 144 00:11:41.549 --> 00:11:43.230 thing. But we feel, you know, they would say, we feel 145 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:48.139 like it's going to take some steps, not just immediate ending of abortions, 146 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:52.379 and at least some babies are saved. The incrementalists would say, at least 147 00:11:52.460 --> 00:11:58.139 some babies are saved along the way that would otherwise not be saved because full 148 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:03.370 abolishment of abortion is just not going to happen right now. It's not realistic. 149 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:07.850 Yeah, and so you know, I guess the incrementalist would say the 150 00:12:07.970 --> 00:12:13.450 immediate test ideas of pine this Guy Right, not going to happen. Right. 151 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.759 We need to chip away at this thing. And of course the immediates 152 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.919 would say like what flip said. Basically all this legislation says can have a 153 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.240 tag on the end of it, it says, and then you can kill 154 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:28.120 the baby. So you know things like regulations for abortion clinics. You know, 155 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.549 abortion clinic has to have such and such in place and all this other 156 00:12:30.629 --> 00:12:31.669 stuff, and then you can kill the baby. Yeah, you know, 157 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:35.230 twenty week bands. Long as it's not older in twenty weeks, then you 158 00:12:35.269 --> 00:12:37.870 can kill the baby, right, you know. And so, you know, 159 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:41.990 I get that point and yeah, I agree that a lot of it. 160 00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:45.980 I don't know what percentage that because, you know what, honestly I 161 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.860 don't deal in the political realm too much. People ask me questions about politics 162 00:12:48.940 --> 00:12:52.100 and about, you know, things, bands on abortion. I mean you 163 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:54.700 asked me a couple weeks ago, I think, as the twenty week band 164 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.450 been lifted in of Carolina, like I don't know. Yeah, I mean 165 00:12:58.529 --> 00:13:03.210 maybe, probably, I think it has been. Yeah, and actually, 166 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:05.850 you know, just to to jump on that point for a second, because 167 00:13:05.850 --> 00:13:11.929 I did find out. But it relates to this discussion also, is that 168 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:20.039 in North Carolina now until the age of viability. Yeah, a baby can 169 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.440 be killed in an abortion, but viability is up to the doctor and subjectives. 170 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.830 Most real think it's around twenty three, twenty five weeks, something like 171 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:35.710 that. But but so again, that's another demonstration of what the abolitionists would 172 00:13:35.710 --> 00:13:41.539 just be furious with. It is that. Oh, but it's okay before, 173 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:45.580 you know, a day before their viable. and WHO's to determine viability? 174 00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:48.659 Yeah, yeah, of course that's a valid or it is a very 175 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:52.019 valid art trusting. Sure, the quote doctor, I'm using air quotes here, 176 00:13:52.100 --> 00:13:56.610 guys, right, and the doctors that do abortions and abortion clinics, 177 00:13:56.649 --> 00:14:00.049 people you get paid to murder children for money, are going to do the 178 00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.490 right thing. And all, this baby's viable. And let's let mean, 179 00:14:03.529 --> 00:14:05.450 what does that even? Well, I'd also like to know how they would 180 00:14:05.450 --> 00:14:09.730 be able to determine that the baby's in the womb. Yeah, how do 181 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:13.519 they know if the babiest viable? They don't. They don't. It's ludicrous. 182 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.679 Yeah, and of course I think we're making the argument for the immediate 183 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.399 ast against the incrementalists. Say this. Those ridiculous and a lot of times 184 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:26.389 when things are legislations thrown out there, some judge strikes it down and it 185 00:14:26.509 --> 00:14:28.789 really doesn't matter anyway. And I get that point too, and I agree, 186 00:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.269 and that's one of the reasons why I tend to lean that way. 187 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:37.190 Yeah, however, I wish they just from experience, I have seen babies 188 00:14:37.309 --> 00:14:39.980 saved right here, you know, just you hundred, fifty yards or so 189 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:43.259 down the road from where we're sitting right now, the busy subortion clinic in 190 00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:48.539 the southeast. I've seen women turned away right who came on board the mobile 191 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:52.059 dress on unit to see their baby and and get our resources and connect with 192 00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.490 us. We're able to share the gospel with them who were turned away because 193 00:14:54.529 --> 00:14:58.049 they were, you know, past nineteen weeks and six days. So I 194 00:14:58.169 --> 00:15:03.210 can't discount those lives that were saved either. But you know, I think 195 00:15:03.250 --> 00:15:09.480 one of the points in this story of the exodus that we can take a 196 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.159 lot out of it. There's a lot there, oh man, the story 197 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.759 of the exodus and the children of Israel going through the wilderness, the parting 198 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.440 down to the parting of the Red Sea. I mean, and I believe 199 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.990 it's First Corinthians, chapter ten, Paul uses as an example of baptism and 200 00:15:22.629 --> 00:15:24.389 the rock. He says it is Christ who was with them in the Wilderness, 201 00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:28.350 and there's a lot of stuff there that you can dig out and in 202 00:15:28.389 --> 00:15:30.549 the particular, I think, in this subject to yeah, you know, 203 00:15:30.590 --> 00:15:33.429 the children of Israel, the incrementalist or the the mediatists, sorry might say. 204 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.899 Well, the children of Isra wondered in the desert for forty years. 205 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.980 We've been wondering in the Wilderness of trying to abolish abortion in this country for 206 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:46.220 forty seven years, you know. And so, you know, what do 207 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:50.769 we say to that? How do you how would you think anycrementalists of respond 208 00:15:50.809 --> 00:15:52.649 to that? Yeah, because it's true, that that is true. We 209 00:15:52.769 --> 00:15:56.090 still haven't ended this thing. Yeah, you know, I guess the best 210 00:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.730 response that I can find biblically as the hardest deceitful above all else who can 211 00:16:00.809 --> 00:16:04.799 know it? Yeah, and that we are as sinful fallen world. Yeah, 212 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.120 and and it's not a perfect world, not even close, and it 213 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.679 won't be until we're all in heaven. Yeah, and the new world. 214 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.919 It is here. Yeah, so heavens in the new earth. That's right. 215 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:23.629 So the A, the sad reality, is because we're working in a 216 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:29.350 fallen world. That that the perfect outcome that we want and we want now. 217 00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:34.299 Well, you're working with a fallen world, yeah, and an in 218 00:16:34.419 --> 00:16:40.580 a fallen and broken system. As far as the the government general, styll 219 00:16:40.659 --> 00:16:44.419 and and broken. You know, people who are in the government, the 220 00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:52.370 politicians. So I think it becomes I think the Exeter story is really a 221 00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:56.730 good one, because why did they wander for forty years? Yeah, they 222 00:16:56.809 --> 00:17:03.320 wandered for forty years because they were sinful disobedient, rebellious and God was teaching 223 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:10.079 them really critical things about himself and about them. Yeah, absolutely. And 224 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.950 while is can can we make the same parallel with what's happening with abortion? 225 00:17:15.029 --> 00:17:19.710 I don't. I don't know, but I I know that God is working 226 00:17:19.869 --> 00:17:25.710 on all of us. Yeah, and in the same way we are. 227 00:17:26.029 --> 00:17:30.140 We are a fallen people that are seeking to follow God imperfect yeah, yeah, 228 00:17:30.299 --> 00:17:36.819 absolutely so. In this as we're talking about the Exodus Story and the 229 00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:41.380 conquest of the promised land. HMM, in this story, is God and 230 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:47.490 immediateist or an incrementalist? Right? And your estimation and what we're reading, 231 00:17:47.529 --> 00:17:52.049 what we're talking about? I'll answer the question for you. Okay, I 232 00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:57.450 think at least in one sense, God is an immediateist. He wants immediate 233 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.880 conquest of the promise and he proclaims that at the beginning. Immediately does yeah, 234 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:04.759 Plat, done, deal right. I want you to go in, 235 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:07.640 I want you to take possession of the land, I want you to eject 236 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:14.109 all of the sights, parasites and Gep his side and him the die, 237 00:18:14.230 --> 00:18:17.109 and I late that. Yet they got to be pushed out of the land, 238 00:18:17.269 --> 00:18:19.589 annihilated, gone. I want that so it's almost like, okay, 239 00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:23.910 in in his perfect will, if we're going to separate the wheels of God. 240 00:18:25.069 --> 00:18:26.339 I don't want to get into a theological discussion about that. But in 241 00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:33.700 his perfect wheel he wants it immediately done, but he's willing to he's willing 242 00:18:33.740 --> 00:18:38.140 to settle for an incremental conquest, and that means doesn't lastmistry say that God's 243 00:18:38.140 --> 00:18:41.450 willing to settle for something? You know, I agree with you. I 244 00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:45.289 think that's what we see. If he could have just wiped everybody out, 245 00:18:45.490 --> 00:18:49.609 yeah, and said you didn't listen to me. I wanted immediate conquest. 246 00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:56.279 If you'd listen to me, you would all be drinking milk and gobbling honey 247 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:02.319 and and living in in this wonderful, wonderful abundant land. Yeah, but 248 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.759 it's because of your sin, you're disobedience, your intermarrying with the people like 249 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.910 told you to annihilate. You're making peace treaties with the people I told you 250 00:19:10.990 --> 00:19:12.869 to annihilate. I'm just going to get rid of you. But that's not 251 00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:18.230 what happened. It took them seven years, but some of the scholars I 252 00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:23.299 read said it took seven years to settle the promised land and even then it. 253 00:19:23.779 --> 00:19:27.460 They did not completely wipe out their enemies. Like I said, they 254 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:33.500 intermarried, they made peace treaties. They're still enemies of God's people now living 255 00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:40.769 in Israel. Yeah. So. So, I think God's heart is probably 256 00:19:40.809 --> 00:19:42.769 an IM mediast. Yeah, he wants all it, just in the same 257 00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:47.410 way as we get into the discussion of salvation. He wants all of us 258 00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:52.160 to come to him immediately, yeah, and and to follow him wholeheartedly and 259 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.799 perfectly. That's his desire, but that's not what we do. Yeah, 260 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.519 and that's not what happened in the settling of the promised land. And instead 261 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:06.720 of just wiping us out and giving up on us, he walked alongside the 262 00:20:07.509 --> 00:20:12.269 his people as they imperfectly settled. Ye, and he and there were blessings 263 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:18.230 that came to them from God as they are imperfectly following his plan. So 264 00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:26.259 I think while his heart is an immediast, his reality with a sinful people 265 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.779 is that it was going to be incremental. Yeah, and I think that 266 00:20:30.980 --> 00:20:34.849 you you have to admit that that is how the Promised Land was settled. 267 00:20:34.890 --> 00:20:38.970 Yeah, was incrementally. Yeah, of course, the the response, since 268 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:42.529 the valid response is what you said before. You know, okay, if 269 00:20:42.609 --> 00:20:47.289 that's how it was. It was an incremental thing. Well, they never 270 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:51.720 really conquered the thing anyway because of all the covenants in the inner marrying and 271 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.400 all that stuff. But you know, God's that the divided kingdom was established 272 00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.400 in Israel and the Messiah's line comes after the Line of David. I mean 273 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:07.029 the golden age of Israel was after the conquest and the establishing of God's Kingdom 274 00:21:07.029 --> 00:21:12.190 and God's new man, David in that place of rulership. So yeah, 275 00:21:12.190 --> 00:21:15.029 I mean there's a lot to learn in that and I encourage you guys all 276 00:21:15.150 --> 00:21:18.740 to dig into that story, the story of the exodus, the children of 277 00:21:18.019 --> 00:21:22.019 Israel wandering in the Wilderness. So many spiritual parallels there. Yeah, and 278 00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:25.779 one of the ones actually I want to I want to point out, and 279 00:21:25.819 --> 00:21:27.900 then you sort of touched on it. I love this story, so I 280 00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:30.019 have to point it out. It's one of my favorite stories in the Old 281 00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:34.329 Testament because it's funny but it's also pretty scary, and it's the treaty that 282 00:21:34.450 --> 00:21:37.609 in Joshua, Chapter Nine, the treaty that the children Israel made with the 283 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:42.690 Gibeon, I right, and they were told to like those Gibby Knights as 284 00:21:42.769 --> 00:21:48.599 getting nights out, and it says and talking about the Gidea Knights, says 285 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.640 they work craftily. This is verse four of Chapter Nine. And Joshua, 286 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.319 they work craftily. And went and pretended to be ambassadors and they took old 287 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.160 sacks on their donkeys and old wine skins and and torn and men did old 288 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.990 patches on their sandals, old garments on themselves, and all the bread and 289 00:22:04.109 --> 00:22:07.750 there of their provisions was dry and mouldy. So they got tattered, close 290 00:22:08.309 --> 00:22:11.349 muldy bread to make it look like there were no threat. And they were 291 00:22:11.470 --> 00:22:15.470 from so far away that there were no thread at all. They all trying 292 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:19.220 so long that their sandals were up, their bread was rotten. I mean 293 00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:22.740 it's it's like wow, these people went a long way. They were to 294 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:26.259 really dope that children of Israel. Ba says, Hey, we're not a 295 00:22:26.500 --> 00:22:29.180 thread at all. Just, you know, make a covenant with Hey, 296 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:33.849 we we're not even in that promise and we're not an issue there. And 297 00:22:33.130 --> 00:22:37.609 the children of Israel did make a covenant with these people of giving and actually 298 00:22:37.609 --> 00:22:41.289 God told them they'd had to under their covenant. That's right. They couldn't 299 00:22:41.289 --> 00:22:42.650 break this covenant. Made a covenant. God told him they needed honor it. 300 00:22:42.690 --> 00:22:45.839 But Hey, they're going to be a thorn in your side and boil 301 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.759 were they? Yeah, in verse fourteen, it says then the men of 302 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.960 Israel took some of their provisions, but they did not ask counsel of the 303 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.480 Lord. So Joshua made peace with them, made a covenant with them to 304 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.789 let them live, and the rulers of the congregation sword of them. So 305 00:23:00.869 --> 00:23:03.710 here he makes a covenant, but I have it underlined actually my Bible here 306 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:07.789 in verse fourteen. But they did not seek counsel of the Lord, and 307 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.150 that's the problem. They didn't seek God. If they would have sought God, 308 00:23:11.430 --> 00:23:15.500 God would have showed them these people are not from far away. They 309 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:18.059 are actually a threat. They're just from over the other he'll, you know, 310 00:23:18.460 --> 00:23:22.339 and with their multi bread and their tattered clothes, they're just tricking you. 311 00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:26.140 And you know, I think this can be comparative to some of the 312 00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:30.130 politicians out there that claim to be prolife and the want to end abortion. 313 00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:33.650 The fact is they're coming with their tattered closing, their muldy bread, claiming, 314 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:37.450 hey, we're no threat. Actually we're going to benefit you, like 315 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.450 the Gibbeess we're going to be a benefit. You just give us your vote. 316 00:23:40.809 --> 00:23:42.200 Hey, you know, just vote for us, since we're Republicans. 317 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.599 We're going to end this thing. In the reality is they're just using prolife 318 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.920 people, people with a sensitivity toward the unborn, for votes, and the 319 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.480 reality is they have no intention of ending abortion. So that's one of the 320 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:59.029 traps and that's one of the things that I appreciate that abolitionists, that you 321 00:23:59.069 --> 00:24:02.309 know, immediateists, would point out is the hypocrisy of a lot of the 322 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:07.109 politicians and a lot of the legislation. Yeah, however, that does not 323 00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:12.500 mean that there aren't politicians that that at least genuinely believe that incremental steps are 324 00:24:12.619 --> 00:24:18.140 a good thing and that are going to ultimately limit and ultimately end abortion. 325 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.140 There are some good politicians out there and maybe they're misguided, I get it. 326 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:25.410 But in one of the points I think that we that we need to 327 00:24:25.490 --> 00:24:26.890 touch on, that we're going to touch on, and we probably already have 328 00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:32.690 just a little bit, is is the contention that's there and the contentious spirit 329 00:24:32.809 --> 00:24:37.250 that's in a lot of the folks who would claim to be immediatests that listen 330 00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:41.319 to as we have this particular persuasion. We need to be patient with people. 331 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.319 We need to understand that not everybody's on the same page with us and 332 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:47.480 it's not going to help if we just say, well, you're not a 333 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:49.279 Christian, then you know, if you don't believe in the immediate abolition of 334 00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.029 abortion, you believe that, you know, incremental steps are good in any 335 00:24:53.029 --> 00:24:56.309 way, then you're not a Christian. Thank you. Just don't read Your 336 00:24:56.309 --> 00:24:57.750 Bible and you're not a Christian. Yeah, now, so that's how that's 337 00:24:57.869 --> 00:25:03.869 harsh accusation to bring against people who may very well just not. Maybe they 338 00:25:03.910 --> 00:25:07.029 don't have the same information you've got, maybe not stuttered it as much as 339 00:25:07.069 --> 00:25:10.019 yeah, I certainly. Maybe they have and they've come to a different conclusion. 340 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:12.380 And maybe they have and and it. I think he is what you 341 00:25:12.420 --> 00:25:17.619 underlying in your Bible there seek the Lord, see Lord and in all that 342 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.980 you do. One of the things that I thought of as I was exploring 343 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:26.289 this topic was would what I do out on the sidewalk, where I'm actively 344 00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:33.690 intervening in the abortion minded woman's desire to kill her baby, would it change 345 00:25:34.170 --> 00:25:41.279 if I was an immediaist or a incrementalist right and my work would not. 346 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.880 Yeah, our work would not the people on the front lines would still share 347 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.789 the gospel. If there're a Gospel Focus Ministry, as ours is, they 348 00:25:49.829 --> 00:25:56.390 would still intercede on behalf of that child, based on God's clear word about 349 00:25:56.390 --> 00:26:00.789 the sanctity of that baby's life and the value of that child's life, and 350 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.420 we would still offer hope and help. Yes, so for to see all 351 00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:11.420 the rancor and even hatred of groups who don't agree, yeah, against fellow 352 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:17.180 Christians, does damage, I think. I'm not sure if it does more 353 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:22.569 damage than good in fact. Yeah, because the world is watchain and and 354 00:26:22.769 --> 00:26:26.730 weird to be known by our love. Yeah, love and unity. And 355 00:26:26.890 --> 00:26:30.569 you know, some folks might will say, Hey, love and unity, 356 00:26:30.650 --> 00:26:33.240 that's all fine and Danny, but we're not supposed to be unified with evil 357 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.279 and by you know, folks who would, I think, be more inclined 358 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.960 to the abolitionist persuasion would say, you know, the Pro Life Movement is 359 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400 just plain evil. Yeah, and they for we can't be associated with it. 360 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.069 You know, Feesians five, was it seventeen? Having a fellowship with 361 00:26:48.069 --> 00:26:49.269 him, Froo, for works of darkness rather exposed. I think it's five, 362 00:26:49.390 --> 00:26:52.990 seventeen. Five seven something. You guys can you guys can look it 363 00:26:52.029 --> 00:26:56.309 up. This is an Effasian steps of us has, yeah, an efficians 364 00:26:56.309 --> 00:27:00.069 chapter follow. So we're not supposed to have fellowship with him. Frou faction 365 00:27:00.109 --> 00:27:02.859 of darkness that I might say. You know, the pro life movements unfruit 366 00:27:02.900 --> 00:27:06.140 for work of darkness. But you know what, I know too many people. 367 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:08.619 Yeah, and it's not about experience. But these are godly people who 368 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:14.619 whose lives line up with the scriptures and who live their hearts after the Lord 369 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:18.170 and are loving them their neighbor as themselves. Who would say their pro life? 370 00:27:18.170 --> 00:27:21.170 You know, say I'm pro life. Somebody asked me, are you 371 00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:23.690 pro life about? Yeah, it's not because, you know, I agree 372 00:27:23.730 --> 00:27:29.089 with everything the quote pro life movement does, but it's because people know what 373 00:27:29.170 --> 00:27:30.000 you're saying. Hey, you know. If you say, well, no, 374 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.119 I might abolitionists, well then you got to you get into this whole 375 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.440 big explanation of what that even means and why that's similar to abolition of slavery. 376 00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.519 But but this and that, and this and that and all the reasons 377 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.470 why you don't say your pro life just like okay, I'm pro life. 378 00:27:45.069 --> 00:27:51.710 I'm Christian first and because I'm a Christian, I'm prolife, I'm anti abortion. 379 00:27:51.950 --> 00:27:53.670 I have no problem with some I call me anti abortion, like you 380 00:27:53.670 --> 00:28:00.140 can call me anti sex trafficking, anti lying, anti stealing. I'm antie 381 00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:02.980 those things. Things are that God is against. I'm against you know. 382 00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:06.220 So, yeah, it's a little caveat there, but yeah, there's a 383 00:28:06.259 --> 00:28:11.059 passage and I think we've pointed this out in some other podcast, but it's 384 00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:14.650 so important, I think, for we, the Christian minister, for somebody 385 00:28:14.650 --> 00:28:21.690 WHO's ministering in on the streets, on the sidewalks entered whatever whatever context you're 386 00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:23.170 minishing. The GOSAM were all called to be Christian ministers, by the way, 387 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.000 but you know I mean. Yeah, and this is in Second Timothy, 388 00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.359 Chapter Two and Verse Twenty Four. And The Servant of the Lord must 389 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:37.759 not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach patient and humility, 390 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.789 correcting those who are in opposition. So in humility, correcting those are opposition, 391 00:28:41.269 --> 00:28:45.430 if God will perhaps grant them repentance so that they may know the truth, 392 00:28:45.950 --> 00:28:48.430 that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, 393 00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:51.869 having been taken captive by him. To do as well and so we 394 00:28:52.029 --> 00:28:56.380 have to in humility. If there are people that don't embrace things that we 395 00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.059 know to be Biblical Truth and Biblical standards, we have to, in humility 396 00:29:00.140 --> 00:29:04.579 and with gentleness, answer them. And just going on facebook and being a 397 00:29:04.660 --> 00:29:11.410 keyboard warrior in blasting everybody who doesn't agree with your persuasion is not obeying that 398 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.410 scripture. This is brother Paul who wrote this to Timothy, who suffered a 399 00:29:15.730 --> 00:29:22.250 lot of persecution. He suffered a lot of accusations from Jews and gentiles, 400 00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:25.880 and yet he's given to Timothy this charge. This is how you ought to 401 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.519 be. Got To be gentle. Yeah, I definitely had that sense from 402 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.839 Carl who you interview. That was my first time, I believe, meeting 403 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.160 him and he was a gentle soul and he seemed to have a very kind 404 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.150 and open yeah, exchange. Yeah, if I listen, I've seen the 405 00:29:41.190 --> 00:29:45.549 nasty on both sides. I've seen the nasty on the prolife side. I 406 00:29:45.670 --> 00:29:49.630 seen the nasty on the your right, abolitionist right media side and the nasty. 407 00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:53.140 Listen, guys, it doesn't help. It doesn't help one bit. 408 00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:59.460 It makes it makes the whole thing, the whole anti abortion movement. Yeah, 409 00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:03.940 maybe everybody would be under that umbrella. I don't know, look bad. 410 00:30:03.980 --> 00:30:06.940 Yeah, and it's not all about outward appearances. Is Ultimate. It's 411 00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.650 about honoring God. That should be the chief concern of everything, not even 412 00:30:10.690 --> 00:30:14.490 the abolition of abortion. Yeah, listen, if your chief goal in life 413 00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:18.369 is to abolish abortion, you're missing the mark. Your chief goal in life 414 00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.640 should be to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ. That should be your chief goal. 415 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:27.559 And you glorify him by, you know, abolishing abortion, by Proclam 416 00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:32.799 proclamation of the Gospel, by standing in front of an abortion kinic and trying 417 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.269 to say babies. But and wasn't it Jesus himself who said a house divided 418 00:30:36.349 --> 00:30:40.230 against it itself will not stand? Yeah, and you know, you look 419 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:45.190 at okay, on both sides are people most I would say, that that 420 00:30:45.509 --> 00:30:52.180 deeply desire those babies to be rescued. Yeah, and so if if we're 421 00:30:52.220 --> 00:31:02.740 doing a good work and and babies are are being saved and the other campus 422 00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:07.250 saying that this is evil, well, that's you're working against what is really 423 00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:12.130 a joint purpose. Yeah, common purpose, which is that God would be 424 00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:18.960 glorified first and that babies would be saved and and and and come to abortion. 425 00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.400 Yeah, so well, should we? Should we hop into the second 426 00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.480 yeah, absolutely. And Yeah, so we're really not talking about an event, 427 00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.150 like historical event in the sense that, you know, we're doing at 428 00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:36.910 individuals being say, which is a horse historical event, based on the historical 429 00:31:36.950 --> 00:31:40.589 event of Jesus Christ Crucifixion, correct resurrection. We're talking about, you know, 430 00:31:40.670 --> 00:31:48.059 a biblical thing that happens, a biblical construct that we see here in 431 00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:52.619 the Bible, and it's salvation basically as well. That's right, and that's 432 00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:56.819 yours, in to a mediatist and incrementalist understanding of abolishing abortion. Yeah, 433 00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.140 of abortion. And the more that I looked at at the more I thought 434 00:32:00.220 --> 00:32:07.250 of the immediist, immediatist position in what Jesus says on the cross, so 435 00:32:07.130 --> 00:32:15.720 pivotal event. He, Jesus, dies on the Cross and as he is 436 00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:21.720 about to give up his spirit, he says the words it is finished. 437 00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:28.960 Yeah, and in part that is it's done, his life is finished here 438 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.750 on earth as a as a human. He's referring not only to his death, 439 00:32:31.789 --> 00:32:37.630 yeah, but to his fact, to the fact that that sacrifice that 440 00:32:37.789 --> 00:32:45.019 was necessarcessary to secure the salvation of the world through faith in him is done. 441 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:51.059 Yeah, when he dies on the cross, the sacrifices made, it 442 00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:55.180 is finished. Yeah, it is done, it is complete, and all 443 00:32:55.460 --> 00:33:00.009 who submit their lives to him and accept that what he has done on their 444 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:07.650 behalf are saved. Yeah, so it was an immediate moment it in terms 445 00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:10.970 of our discussion of immediate versus incremental, there was a moment where he says 446 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:16.920 it is finished. Yeah, all that folutness. And yet you know, 447 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.799 if you look at at lots of verses in the Bible and think about the 448 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:30.230 sanctification of God's people, it is an ongoing, gradual, incremental process. 449 00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:35.029 Yeah, just like lundering. So one of the things that I'll say, 450 00:33:36.269 --> 00:33:37.829 and I like to use just everyday language, said, okay, no one 451 00:33:37.869 --> 00:33:42.940 get offended that I'm not using, like you, all these Greek terms and 452 00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.220 all this, but basically I'll say when you signed up for Christianity, you 453 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:50.099 signed up for one thing. He signed up to become more like Jesus h 454 00:33:50.380 --> 00:33:52.980 and that is God's commitment to you. Your commitment to him is Lord, 455 00:33:53.660 --> 00:33:57.849 I'm sinful and I need to be saved, conform me to the image of 456 00:33:57.849 --> 00:34:00.130 Christ. His commitmenties use. I'm going to conform you to the image of 457 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:04.410 Christ. That's right, and that's not about yeah, but not immediately. 458 00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:08.969 Be Be transformed with the renewing of your mind. Yeah, so it's not 459 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:15.119 in with it's not an immediate renewal. It's renewing. You are renewing. 460 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.840 It is a process. Yeah, and do not be conformed to the world, 461 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:23.309 but be transformed in an ongoing process. So think about Roman seven, 462 00:34:23.389 --> 00:34:27.070 one thousand nine hundred and twenty five. Okay, that that's a good one. 463 00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:35.389 That's where Paul is is expressing the struggle of we are saved and there 464 00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:38.219 is a moment at which we submit our lives to the Lord. Okay, 465 00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:43.380 well, versus, but that was Roman seven nineteen to twenty five. Okay, 466 00:34:43.460 --> 00:34:46.780 you know. But from that point forward we are on a lifelong journey 467 00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:53.610 to reach what God has promised, and incremental journey and in because we are 468 00:34:54.250 --> 00:35:00.690 still in the flesh and and there's always that flesh nature that is struggling against 469 00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:07.010 the spirit of God. Yeah, that God's spiritual renewal in us. So, 470 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.639 yeah, those are Roman seven nineteen to twenty five. Okay, yeah, 471 00:35:09.639 --> 00:35:15.000 I read that right here. So Romans Nineteen to twenty five, for 472 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:16.519 the good that I will do I do not do, but the evil that 473 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:21.909 I will not do that I practice. Now, if I do what I 474 00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:24.909 will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but 475 00:35:24.989 --> 00:35:29.829 sin who dwells in me. And I find then a law that evil is 476 00:35:29.949 --> 00:35:32.750 present with with me, the one who wills to do good, for I 477 00:35:32.909 --> 00:35:36.179 delight in the Law of God, according to the inward man, but I 478 00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:38.420 see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and 479 00:35:38.579 --> 00:35:43.179 bringing me into captivity to the Law of sin which is in my members, 480 00:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.019 a wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of 481 00:35:46.179 --> 00:35:51.690 death? Verse Twenty Five, I think God through Jesus Christ, Our Lord. 482 00:35:52.010 --> 00:35:54.050 So then, with the mind, with the mind, I myself serve 483 00:35:54.210 --> 00:35:57.769 the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. So 484 00:35:57.929 --> 00:36:01.769 he's talking about this struggle of doing right and and choosing to do wrong and 485 00:36:02.489 --> 00:36:07.159 and ultimately God's commitment to us. Yeah, that he's going to bring us 486 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.800 into a place of conformity to Christ if will surrender to him. So it 487 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.079 does. It doesn't happen instantly. It's he's struggling. Yeah, he's struggles, 488 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:17.630 as we all. I I sure can relate to those verses. I 489 00:36:19.070 --> 00:36:22.150 I know I'm going to struggle till the day I die. I think I 490 00:36:22.030 --> 00:36:25.670 win more often than I lose, the more that I am transformed into the 491 00:36:25.789 --> 00:36:29.630 likeness of Christ. I did. I told you the other day I was 492 00:36:29.750 --> 00:36:32.300 I was round down the road, I was following my phone to my destination 493 00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:37.500 and when I got there, my phone says you've arrived and I was like, 494 00:36:37.659 --> 00:36:42.739 where you been? I've arrived a long time ago, Sirie, I've 495 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.340 arrived. No, we've not arrived. I've not arrived. I have to 496 00:36:45.380 --> 00:36:47.289 argue with my phone. I'm not a rob. I'm sorry, I'm at 497 00:36:47.329 --> 00:36:50.449 my destination, but the Lord is still working on me. You know, 498 00:36:50.769 --> 00:36:52.489 you'LD tongue. He still working on me. That's the reality. That's the 499 00:36:52.570 --> 00:36:57.969 process of sanctification. As as we, like you said, as we mature 500 00:36:58.050 --> 00:37:01.400 in Christ, we become more and more like Jesus, but we're also ever 501 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.119 reminded of our inadequacies, in our weaknesses, knowing the like, the closer 502 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.159 we get to Christ, the more we see we need him right. So, 503 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:15.119 even though salvation, I would say, wow, the Bible would say 504 00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:17.510 the salvation being born of the spirit, is an immediate thing, the process 505 00:37:17.590 --> 00:37:22.190 of conforming to Christ is an incremental thing. Is God is doing is it's 506 00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:25.469 almost like, again, not using theological terms, just everyday language. It's 507 00:37:25.469 --> 00:37:30.099 almost like God'll take what he can get right and at the more that will 508 00:37:30.179 --> 00:37:32.500 surrender to him, the more he'll conforms to the image of Christ. And 509 00:37:32.659 --> 00:37:37.500 again, the ultimate goal is that we're conformed to the image of Christ. 510 00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:44.289 And it's all a tapestry. And you know, we can't see this beautiful 511 00:37:44.289 --> 00:37:49.010 tapestry that God has created as a finished work. We see that tapestry as 512 00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:52.449 it's being woven and and there's all these different threads and all of us are 513 00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:57.929 part of that tapestry that's being woven. So what is happening to US during 514 00:37:58.010 --> 00:38:05.400 this process? This incremental clearly an incremental process is something that others around us 515 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:09.360 are affected by. Yeah, and you never know how those struggles and people 516 00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:15.230 watching you go through those struggles and watching you prevail and sometimes watching you fail, 517 00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:20.550 how that affects their relationship with the Lord and they are understanding of the 518 00:38:20.670 --> 00:38:24.190 Lord and it. He weaves it all together beautifully and I think that that 519 00:38:24.750 --> 00:38:31.460 is throughout the Bible, every incremental process, the the the Israelites entering the 520 00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:37.860 Promised Land and sanctification as we grow in a likeness of Christ. Every incremental 521 00:38:37.980 --> 00:38:45.050 process not only brings us closer to the Lord and is a benefit to us, 522 00:38:45.289 --> 00:38:50.849 but it benefits those around us who were watching and who are also seeing 523 00:38:51.010 --> 00:38:54.690 God, maybe in a way that they wouldn't see if it had happened instantly. 524 00:38:54.719 --> 00:39:01.519 Yeah, so I and I think that's a maybe a what would be 525 00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:08.880 the word? The beauty of incrementalism, okay, is is that if God 526 00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:15.349 had shown me all my sin all at once, I would have committed suicide. 527 00:39:15.389 --> 00:39:20.230 Yeah, because it was so horrimless. Yeah, it was too much. 528 00:39:20.710 --> 00:39:24.019 Even now, when he's like peeling back the layers as as I remember 529 00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:29.500 them, there are still times that I still cringe and and think I couldn't 530 00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:31.940 have handled this before I knew God better. Yeah, but I know that 531 00:39:32.059 --> 00:39:35.539 I'm forgiven, I know that I'm saved and I know that I'm on a 532 00:39:35.579 --> 00:39:40.210 journey. Yeah, so God's I think God is clearly in that area and 533 00:39:40.409 --> 00:39:45.050 incrementalist, not because it was his desire, but because he's, like you 534 00:39:45.130 --> 00:39:49.409 said, he'll take us where we are or I'll take what he can get. 535 00:39:49.769 --> 00:39:53.639 Well, what he's got is people who are steeped in sin, with 536 00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:00.000 with deceitful hearts. Yeah, and he his desire might be that we would 537 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:07.469 immediately be changed, but the reality is it's a process. So it contrasts 538 00:40:07.630 --> 00:40:13.789 to that. Is Hebrews Thousand and ten. Okay, you want to find 539 00:40:13.789 --> 00:40:15.989 that? Yeah, well, you got in reading. I've got okay, 540 00:40:15.989 --> 00:40:19.789 yeah, I've got it. By this we will have been sanctified through the 541 00:40:19.989 --> 00:40:23.739 offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Yeah, and that 542 00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:28.619 just kind of sounds like it almost negates what I just said. Right, 543 00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.219 once for all. It's immediate. Yeah, it's immediate again, just his 544 00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:37.929 by it we will have been sanctified through the offering of his body once for 545 00:40:38.090 --> 00:40:47.090 all. So contrast that with Philippians two twelve. Therefore, my beloved, 546 00:40:47.449 --> 00:40:52.480 as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence 547 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.880 but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and 548 00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.239 trembling. Well, I thought it was once for all. Yeah, why 549 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.829 are we working things out? Yeah, so, so there's a there's a 550 00:41:05.030 --> 00:41:08.070 there's a right now and not yet concept to a lot of the things in 551 00:41:08.190 --> 00:41:12.710 the scriptures. You know, there's a right now and not yet. In, 552 00:41:13.389 --> 00:41:16.909 you know, in the children of Israels and their story from the Wilderness 553 00:41:17.030 --> 00:41:20.940 to the Promised Land, there's a right now and not yet. As far 554 00:41:20.940 --> 00:41:23.059 as salvation, you know, some folks say salvation comes in a couple of 555 00:41:23.139 --> 00:41:25.940 different tenses. You know, you have been saved, you are being saved 556 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:30.980 and you will be saved, and that's true. I believe the Greek Lens 557 00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:34.250 itself to that. Yeah, so you know, there is this concept and 558 00:41:34.570 --> 00:41:37.889 I think you know, even though we've probably not will, we've not sought 559 00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.409 to answer the questions, got an incrementalist or an immediate test, we've hopefully 560 00:41:43.530 --> 00:41:46.840 spurred some thought for you guys just to be thinking about this thing biblically and, 561 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:52.159 more than anything, to help people to wheel back some of the accusations 562 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.639 and some of the you know, attributing evil motives to people, and that 563 00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:59.280 certainly I would think there are people in both camps that have some evil motives, 564 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.190 because you got centers in each camp, you know, and you got 565 00:42:01.269 --> 00:42:06.349 people who maybe not don't even know the Lord and in both camps and just 566 00:42:06.789 --> 00:42:09.510 are on board with some kind of movement or something like that. But you 567 00:42:09.630 --> 00:42:13.789 know you've got you got fallen human beings with a fallen understanding, a limited 568 00:42:13.789 --> 00:42:17.059 understanding. We've got to be careful with our accusations that we throw at people. 569 00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:21.460 Yeah, and if we have a particular conviction, and we should have 570 00:42:21.579 --> 00:42:23.539 be people of conviction, it shouldn't be just anything goes. Nothing's a big 571 00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:27.539 deal. This is a big deal. Portions a big deal. It's we 572 00:42:27.699 --> 00:42:31.050 need to be happy these conversations. There needs to be debates about these conversations. 573 00:42:31.530 --> 00:42:35.809 That's how the Church has done it for since the beginning. Yeah, 574 00:42:36.010 --> 00:42:39.489 there's debates about certain theological points and certain things and all of this, and 575 00:42:39.530 --> 00:42:43.929 there should be that. So, so I'm not saying we shouldn't have those 576 00:42:43.929 --> 00:42:46.599 conversations and the exchanges on facebook shouldn't be made. They should be made. 577 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.840 Book should be written in all that stuff. But the accusations against people. 578 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.480 But just because they are not in your camp, that their unbelievers, that 579 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.989 that doesn't honor the Lord and I thought, I think, and you know 580 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:02.630 kind of I wrote a summary of what I came to under stand is as 581 00:43:02.750 --> 00:43:07.789 I grappled with this issue, and I want to read that summary. Okay, 582 00:43:07.869 --> 00:43:14.139 because I think in part both camps there is biblical truth. There could 583 00:43:14.139 --> 00:43:16.619 be biblical support from both sides and I think that's important. So I I 584 00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:22.860 came to the conclusion that God is both an immediate to a mediatist and an 585 00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:28.809 incrementalist, and if he were not the first, we would have no glorious 586 00:43:28.849 --> 00:43:34.409 absolute standard to obtain, yeah, and to strive for. But if he 587 00:43:34.650 --> 00:43:39.289 were not the second, none of us would be transformed and conformed to his 588 00:43:39.530 --> 00:43:46.559 likeness. Yeah, so God is is an immediatist and an incrementalist in some 589 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:51.000 ways. So both camps can hate us there. Yeah. So, like 590 00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:52.760 I said when we started, I think we're going to make some right off 591 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.949 and everybody, which is fine. If you're offended, that's fine. Let 592 00:43:57.989 --> 00:44:00.469 us know why you're offended. Shoot me an email. D Parks at cities 593 00:44:00.510 --> 00:44:06.909 for lifecom. Shoot Vicky and email. She's easier to pick on because you'll 594 00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:10.139 just start the question ever to me actually think and we'll debate it. We'll 595 00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:14.460 talk about it. Yeah, because the organ cities for lifecom want to hear 596 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:15.980 from you guys. We are going to throw this article that Vicky rode out 597 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:20.579 on our sidewalks for life site and we'll probably throw it up on our sidewalks 598 00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:24.250 for life facebook page. We just want these things to be a blessing. 599 00:44:24.289 --> 00:44:30.210 Want to spur thought, Biblical thought, and encourage people to to honor the 600 00:44:30.289 --> 00:44:34.570 Lord in their actions on the I'dewalk but also in their actions on the social 601 00:44:34.650 --> 00:44:38.079 media sphere. But we do want to hear you guys responses to this. 602 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.679 Did we miss something? Is there something we we glazed over that we needed 603 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.760 to focus on a little more? Are there other scriptures that come to mind 604 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:50.320 and there's a lot that you think are important about this subject? We'd love 605 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.639 to hear him. So you can shoot me an email, shoot Vicki an 606 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:55.309 email. But you know, good check out too is we always talk about 607 00:44:55.309 --> 00:44:59.150 our sidewalks for life site. Get checked that out. Sidewalks the number four 608 00:44:59.349 --> 00:45:02.590 lifecom. It's the sidewalk counseling website. That's what it's for, to encourage 609 00:45:02.630 --> 00:45:07.300 people to be Gospel centered voices at the abortion clinics. You can check US 610 00:45:07.300 --> 00:45:10.420 OUT LOCALLY CHARLOTTE DOT cities for Life Dot Org. But we hope you guys 611 00:45:10.420 --> 00:45:20.579 are blessed and listening and until next time, be blessed. Gift for Love, 612 00:45:23.289 --> 00:45:31.730 give me our loft for gratitude. I know it will cost me my 613 00:45:32.090 --> 00:45:39.480 love. Nothing's too precious. And some met you