Is God An Incrementalist or Immediatist?

WEBVTT100:00:00.560 --> 00:00:05.799I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours s and me,200:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.230Lord, I am your. Biblicallyspeaking, is God an incrementalist or an300:00:11.230 --> 00:00:15.269immediate test when it comes to theissue of abortion? What are those terms?400:00:15.310 --> 00:00:18.989Even me will stick with us aswe explore this topic and talk through500:00:19.070 --> 00:00:34.420this thing biblically. I felt showtassish touch your welcome to the Gospel Center600:00:34.460 --> 00:00:39.530per life podcast. We're going totalk about an important subject, because all700:00:39.570 --> 00:00:42.250of the subjects that we talked aboutare important. Of course, I feel800:00:42.250 --> 00:00:45.770like they are anyway. Yep,and it's one that has been flying around,900:00:45.810 --> 00:00:49.490I guess, in the bloggest sphereand the social media sphere and all1000:00:49.530 --> 00:00:53.439of that, and it's the subjectand we're sort of tagging it. Is1100:00:53.600 --> 00:00:59.359God an a mediatist or an incrementalist? And you who are listening may or1200:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.640may not know what those terms are. Actually did a podcast interview with Flip1300:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.909Benham some months ago where he talksabout the dangers of incrementalism. We did1400:01:07.950 --> 00:01:15.989an interview with with Carl who's withabolish human abortion, and called Carl Turnmeier,1500:01:17.390 --> 00:01:21.620who's with abolish human abortion here inNorth Carolina, and he talked about1600:01:21.620 --> 00:01:26.739abolition the abolitionist stance against per lifestance. We see you on our facebook1700:01:27.420 --> 00:01:32.659news feeds and social media feeds,a lot of arguments and stuff, you1800:01:32.739 --> 00:01:37.170know, even accusations against, youknow, the abolitionist against the prolife folks.1900:01:37.290 --> 00:01:41.170I'm even pro life folks against abolitionistfolks. And really the the debate2000:01:41.450 --> 00:01:48.760is about the immediate abolition of abortionor incremental steps to to end abortion in2100:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.439our country. And you know,there's a lot out there is a lot2200:01:52.519 --> 00:01:55.480that people can read. There's alot of stuff you know. Maybe you2300:01:55.560 --> 00:01:57.319know, if you reach out tous, we can point you in the2400:01:57.359 --> 00:02:00.560right direction. Some things you canread, but I think the most important2500:02:00.560 --> 00:02:04.709thing to read when it comes tosubjects like this that are very important is2600:02:04.790 --> 00:02:07.229the Bible. And that's what we'regoing to be looking at it from a2700:02:07.389 --> 00:02:14.509perspective of not just politics and whatpoliticians say and and what works, because,2800:02:14.550 --> 00:02:16.620you know, pragmatism can be abig, big time trap and it2900:02:16.699 --> 00:02:21.539can cause us to compromise the Gospeland compromise truth. So we don't want3000:02:21.539 --> 00:02:23.780to do that. But what doesthe Bible say? Is God himself and3100:02:23.939 --> 00:02:30.930incrementalist or an immediatist? And Ithink at the end of this podcast will3200:02:30.009 --> 00:02:35.250probably have offended everybody. Right.That's our which is our goal really not3300:02:35.289 --> 00:02:38.409what our goal? What we dobest is offending people, making people angry.3400:02:38.729 --> 00:02:40.889If you're offend, listen. Atthe end of the day, if3500:02:42.050 --> 00:02:45.280you listen this podcast and you're offendedby it, please let us know.3600:02:45.599 --> 00:02:51.639Listen either either way. As faras incrementalists and immediatist I'm willing to be3700:02:51.759 --> 00:02:57.919convinced. I'm open minded either wayand just kind of let the cat out3800:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.909of the bag. I'm more tinnedtoward the immediatist abolitionists. Persuasion, but3900:03:04.710 --> 00:03:07.310also no, practically, there's somethings that, you know, the Lord4000:03:07.430 --> 00:03:12.189uses, but I'm willing to beconvinced either way. As long as you're4100:03:12.189 --> 00:03:15.340arguing from the scriptures. I don'tcare about your opinion, I don't care4200:03:15.379 --> 00:03:21.500about your experience, I don't careabout what your grandma believes. I care4300:03:21.500 --> 00:03:23.780about what the Bible says. Idon't know you do too, because yes,4400:03:23.900 --> 00:03:28.090and you've got an article which we'regoing to hopefully put up on sidewalks4500:03:28.090 --> 00:03:31.090for life right in the coming weeksthat sort of lays out, I think,4600:03:31.250 --> 00:03:37.009really a very good case. Solet's jump into it. Yeah,4700:03:37.129 --> 00:03:38.930so I you know, I'll behonest, I've been doing this now for4800:03:39.289 --> 00:03:46.159six, six years, really veryinvolved in some counseling and and prolife ministry,4900:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.479and I had really no idea thatthis rift between I didn't know there5000:03:52.479 --> 00:03:57.629were these two camps about how tobring about the end of abortion and I5100:03:57.789 --> 00:04:02.030just thought everyone was kind of alltogether it. Clearly anyone working in this5200:04:02.189 --> 00:04:05.949sort of ministry wants abortion end.We hate abortion, we know it's youthful,5300:04:05.990 --> 00:04:11.939we know it's wrong, it's againstGod's clear commands. So so I5400:04:12.099 --> 00:04:17.180really approach this as as someone whois pretty ignorant about both of these positions.5500:04:17.220 --> 00:04:21.220But I will tell you that itdismays me when I saw some of5600:04:21.259 --> 00:04:28.410the what I see as attacks onon fellow Chris Christians and and I do5700:04:28.569 --> 00:04:33.370feel dismay grieves me. Yeah,a house divided us against itself cannot stand.5800:04:34.810 --> 00:04:40.759So I think it's a very importantsubject and what I did is exactly5900:04:40.800 --> 00:04:45.639what you said. I went throughscripture and I tried to determine really kind6000:04:45.639 --> 00:04:48.040of in a sense, well,what is God? Yeah, is he6100:04:48.600 --> 00:04:59.189immediate test or is he an incrementalist? And two main events biblical events came6200:04:59.629 --> 00:05:02.790to mind that I think could makea compelling case for one of the other6300:05:02.870 --> 00:05:08.779okay, and those were the theexodus into the promised land, yeah,6400:05:09.300 --> 00:05:15.019and the conquering and settlement of thePromised Land. That's one thing. That's6500:05:15.100 --> 00:05:19.180one thing largely told in the bookof Joshua. And then the second thing6600:05:19.699 --> 00:05:27.290is the atoning sacrifice of Jesus onthe Cross, okay, and the salvation6700:05:27.970 --> 00:05:31.009and sanctification of his people. Allright. So sort of an old testament6800:05:31.129 --> 00:05:34.720picture, HMM, and a newtestament picture, right, okay, right,6900:05:34.959 --> 00:05:46.920yeah, so God promises for thefirst time in the Bible to secure7000:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.949the land for his people. Okay, in right at the beginning of the7100:05:49.990 --> 00:05:55.629Bible, in in Genesis, right, and that specific promise, I think7200:05:55.790 --> 00:06:00.829is important and to read. Andthat's Genesis fifteen versus eighteen to twenty one.7300:06:00.990 --> 00:06:08.339All ready got those, okay.Yeah. So Genesis Eighteen through three,7400:06:08.500 --> 00:06:11.939twenty one, okay, says onthat same day the Lord made a7500:06:12.019 --> 00:06:15.019covenant with Abraham, saying to yourdescendants, I have given this land from7600:06:15.060 --> 00:06:20.290the river of Egypt to the greatriver, the River Euphrates, the Canaanites7700:06:20.850 --> 00:06:28.170or the Kenites, sorry, inthe Kenyasites and the Kamonodites and the HIVOTITES7800:06:28.250 --> 00:06:32.800and the priserites and the refree themthe Amorites, the Canaanites and the Gurgishites7900:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.000and the jebusites and all of thosesites. That was purposely just to hear8000:06:38.040 --> 00:06:42.000you say you on the me tobe thank you. That was very humbling.8100:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.439Okay, so look at the beginning. Okay, your descendants, I8200:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.790have given this lamb. Okay,okay, it's it's pres intense, it's8300:06:48.870 --> 00:06:53.550Dawne. Yeah, it's it's animman right thing. It's immediate, it8400:06:54.430 --> 00:07:01.740is absolute, it's complete. Andthe interesting thing is this promises made before8500:07:01.860 --> 00:07:06.699Abraham had borne a single child.It's actually why he's still called Abram,8600:07:08.100 --> 00:07:13.860right is he called jelled? Abrahamhadn't even become Abraham yet. So God8700:07:13.939 --> 00:07:20.529has a goal and ambition and itwill be completely accomplished. The deliverance,8800:07:20.610 --> 00:07:25.050though, is many, many,many years down the road. Yeah,8900:07:25.370 --> 00:07:29.290in God's eyes it's already a donedeal. Yeah, right, God's outside9000:07:29.290 --> 00:07:32.879of time. But this promise saysthe land is given, he has been9100:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.800given. But the reality is ittook actually four hundred and seventy years from9200:07:41.879 --> 00:07:47.189that promise before the first victory overa city, Jericho. Yeah, in9300:07:47.310 --> 00:07:54.110the Promised Land, a hundred andseventy years. And even that first victory9400:07:54.709 --> 00:07:59.019was not immediate. You remember thefamous story of the soldiers mark. God9500:07:59.139 --> 00:08:03.939tells them you're going to March seventimes around that city before they would blow9600:08:03.939 --> 00:08:07.300the trumpets and and Jericho would beseven days. Yeah, what did I9700:08:07.379 --> 00:08:11.420say? Seven days is yeah,that I'm ATT right. Seven days around9800:08:11.420 --> 00:08:16.209that city before they overthrew the city. Why not immediately? Yeah, why?9900:08:16.209 --> 00:08:18.730I'm really God could have taken overJericho immediately, right, sure,10000:08:18.730 --> 00:08:26.850right. So a similar question canreally even be asked about the whole promised10100:08:26.850 --> 00:08:31.600land process. How did he bringabout the conquest of the Promised Land?10200:08:31.879 --> 00:08:37.159Did he lead his peed pole instantlyout of Egypt? Well, it took10300:08:37.200 --> 00:08:43.149some took some prom some process ultimatelybring judgment upon Egypt and bring the children10400:08:43.190 --> 00:08:46.629of Israel out. HMM. Andit took how many years? Forty years,10500:08:46.669 --> 00:08:50.350right, forty years. That wassupposed to be a trip where that10600:08:50.590 --> 00:08:54.590is a trip that can take elevendays. Yeah, that's whatever ridden commentaries.10700:08:54.710 --> 00:09:01.299Right. So it took forty yearsand God clearly didn't take the most10800:09:01.820 --> 00:09:07.340immediate route he didn't take the mostdirect route. He took them on a10900:09:07.580 --> 00:09:16.169maddeningly long circuitest adversity filled root forforty years. Yeah, and when they11000:09:16.809 --> 00:09:22.970when they finally get to the PromisedLand, most of those adults, right,11100:09:24.169 --> 00:09:26.559that had been led for those fortyyears, are not allowed to enter,11200:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.320right. Yeah, Promised Land.Yeah, even before we go much11300:09:31.399 --> 00:09:35.679deeper into this, because there's someI believe there's some comparison, some good11400:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.110comparison here, between per life,abolition, incrementalism, immediatism and that sort11500:09:41.110 --> 00:09:43.509of thing. Let's real quick,though, define our terms. Okay,11600:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.590we didn't do that. Oh,okay, when we need to do that,11700:09:46.710 --> 00:09:50.230sure, yeah, when we're talkingabout a mediatist, what we're saying11800:09:50.309 --> 00:09:56.139is basically that we want the immediateabolition of abortion, we want abortion to11900:09:56.220 --> 00:10:03.299be made illegal in this these UnitedStates, for the unborn child to be12000:10:03.419 --> 00:10:07.610deemed a human being with full rightsas a any other human being would be12100:10:07.730 --> 00:10:13.529in this country, and for peopleto stop murdering them. And that to12200:10:13.649 --> 00:10:18.169me, praise God, that's whatI want. So I mean that would12300:10:18.169 --> 00:10:20.210be a good definition, don't youthink? May I think? Yes,12400:10:20.409 --> 00:10:24.120listening would jimmy was a different definition. But and and they immediate tost would12500:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.480and they would say that any lawthat limits abortion is showing that there is12600:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.240a group of those unborn babies thatare somehow of less value. Yeah,12700:10:33.279 --> 00:10:37.309yeah, so if the the exceptionfor rape, for example, limits abortion12800:10:37.509 --> 00:10:41.909except in the case of rape,well, are the babies of rape of12900:10:41.990 --> 00:10:48.190less value than the babies that areconceived outside of rape? Right? And13000:10:48.309 --> 00:10:50.539of course not. Right, ofcourse not. They're all of equal value.13100:10:50.659 --> 00:10:52.980Yeah, and you know, Flipsaid something is that. You did13200:10:54.019 --> 00:10:56.019the interview with him, which youguys, if you hadn't listen to that,13300:10:56.059 --> 00:10:58.580please go back and listen. Yeah, he's basically saying, you know,13400:10:58.580 --> 00:11:01.740all this legislation, all this incrementalwould just define that real quick.13500:11:01.820 --> 00:11:07.490Basically, it means just some stepstoward ending abortion. So bands on abortion13600:11:07.529 --> 00:11:11.809at you twenty weeks, bands onabortion at you know, when a heartbeats13700:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.490detected. Bands on abortion against children, that you can't abord a child just13800:11:16.529 --> 00:11:20.639because it's a it's a girl orboy, sex selective abortions, bands on13900:11:20.720 --> 00:11:24.360that sort of thing, bands onparts or the Moor fee. Yeah,14000:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.000bands based on you can't abort basedon a disability and all that stuff and14100:11:28.120 --> 00:11:33.669so this would be incremental steps,chipping away really right, chipping away at14200:11:33.710 --> 00:11:37.110abortion, and ultimately the goal,at least I would hope the goal for14300:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.470for folks who would be in thatcamp, would be ultimately the end the14400:11:41.549 --> 00:11:43.230thing. But we feel, youknow, they would say, we feel14500:11:43.230 --> 00:11:48.139like it's going to take some steps, not just immediate ending of abortions,14600:11:48.259 --> 00:11:52.379and at least some babies are saved. The incrementalists would say, at least14700:11:52.460 --> 00:11:58.139some babies are saved along the waythat would otherwise not be saved because full14800:11:58.259 --> 00:12:03.370abolishment of abortion is just not goingto happen right now. It's not realistic.14900:12:03.490 --> 00:12:07.850Yeah, and so you know,I guess the incrementalist would say the15000:12:07.970 --> 00:12:13.450immediate test ideas of pine this GuyRight, not going to happen. Right.15100:12:13.529 --> 00:12:16.759We need to chip away at thisthing. And of course the immediates15200:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.919would say like what flip said.Basically all this legislation says can have a15300:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.240tag on the end of it,it says, and then you can kill15400:12:24.279 --> 00:12:28.120the baby. So you know thingslike regulations for abortion clinics. You know,15500:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.549abortion clinic has to have such andsuch in place and all this other15600:12:30.629 --> 00:12:31.669stuff, and then you can killthe baby. Yeah, you know,15700:12:31.789 --> 00:12:35.230twenty week bands. Long as it'snot older in twenty weeks, then you15800:12:35.269 --> 00:12:37.870can kill the baby, right,you know. And so, you know,15900:12:37.870 --> 00:12:41.990I get that point and yeah,I agree that a lot of it.16000:12:43.149 --> 00:12:45.980I don't know what percentage that because, you know what, honestly I16100:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.860don't deal in the political realm toomuch. People ask me questions about politics16200:12:48.940 --> 00:12:52.100and about, you know, things, bands on abortion. I mean you16300:12:52.139 --> 00:12:54.700asked me a couple weeks ago,I think, as the twenty week band16400:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.450been lifted in of Carolina, likeI don't know. Yeah, I mean16500:12:58.529 --> 00:13:03.210maybe, probably, I think ithas been. Yeah, and actually,16600:13:03.289 --> 00:13:05.850you know, just to to jumpon that point for a second, because16700:13:05.850 --> 00:13:11.929I did find out. But itrelates to this discussion also, is that16800:13:11.490 --> 00:13:20.039in North Carolina now until the ageof viability. Yeah, a baby can16900:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.440be killed in an abortion, butviability is up to the doctor and subjectives.17000:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.830Most real think it's around twenty three, twenty five weeks, something like17100:13:28.950 --> 00:13:35.710that. But but so again,that's another demonstration of what the abolitionists would17200:13:35.710 --> 00:13:41.539just be furious with. It isthat. Oh, but it's okay before,17300:13:41.820 --> 00:13:45.580you know, a day before theirviable. and WHO's to determine viability?17400:13:45.620 --> 00:13:48.659Yeah, yeah, of course that'sa valid or it is a very17500:13:48.700 --> 00:13:52.019valid art trusting. Sure, thequote doctor, I'm using air quotes here,17600:13:52.100 --> 00:13:56.610guys, right, and the doctorsthat do abortions and abortion clinics,17700:13:56.649 --> 00:14:00.049people you get paid to murder childrenfor money, are going to do the17800:14:00.450 --> 00:14:03.490right thing. And all, thisbaby's viable. And let's let mean,17900:14:03.529 --> 00:14:05.450what does that even? Well,I'd also like to know how they would18000:14:05.450 --> 00:14:09.730be able to determine that the baby'sin the womb. Yeah, how do18100:14:09.809 --> 00:14:13.519they know if the babiest viable?They don't. They don't. It's ludicrous.18200:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.679Yeah, and of course I thinkwe're making the argument for the immediate18300:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.399ast against the incrementalists. Say this. Those ridiculous and a lot of times18400:14:20.440 --> 00:14:26.389when things are legislations thrown out there, some judge strikes it down and it18500:14:26.509 --> 00:14:28.789really doesn't matter anyway. And Iget that point too, and I agree,18600:14:28.830 --> 00:14:31.269and that's one of the reasons whyI tend to lean that way.18700:14:31.309 --> 00:14:37.190Yeah, however, I wish theyjust from experience, I have seen babies18800:14:37.309 --> 00:14:39.980saved right here, you know,just you hundred, fifty yards or so18900:14:41.139 --> 00:14:43.259down the road from where we're sittingright now, the busy subortion clinic in19000:14:43.259 --> 00:14:48.539the southeast. I've seen women turnedaway right who came on board the mobile19100:14:48.580 --> 00:14:52.059dress on unit to see their babyand and get our resources and connect with19200:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.490us. We're able to share thegospel with them who were turned away because19300:14:54.529 --> 00:14:58.049they were, you know, pastnineteen weeks and six days. So I19400:14:58.169 --> 00:15:03.210can't discount those lives that were savedeither. But you know, I think19500:15:03.250 --> 00:15:09.480one of the points in this storyof the exodus that we can take a19600:15:09.519 --> 00:15:11.159lot out of it. There's alot there, oh man, the story19700:15:11.200 --> 00:15:15.759of the exodus and the children ofIsrael going through the wilderness, the parting19800:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.440down to the parting of the RedSea. I mean, and I believe19900:15:18.480 --> 00:15:20.990it's First Corinthians, chapter ten,Paul uses as an example of baptism and20000:15:22.629 --> 00:15:24.389the rock. He says it isChrist who was with them in the Wilderness,20100:15:24.389 --> 00:15:28.350and there's a lot of stuff therethat you can dig out and in20200:15:28.389 --> 00:15:30.549the particular, I think, inthis subject to yeah, you know,20300:15:30.590 --> 00:15:33.429the children of Israel, the incrementalistor the the mediatists, sorry might say.20400:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.899Well, the children of Isra wonderedin the desert for forty years.20500:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.980We've been wondering in the Wilderness oftrying to abolish abortion in this country for20600:15:43.299 --> 00:15:46.220forty seven years, you know.And so, you know, what do20700:15:46.299 --> 00:15:50.769we say to that? How doyou how would you think anycrementalists of respond20800:15:50.809 --> 00:15:52.649to that? Yeah, because it'strue, that that is true. We20900:15:52.769 --> 00:15:56.090still haven't ended this thing. Yeah, you know, I guess the best21000:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.730response that I can find biblically asthe hardest deceitful above all else who can21100:16:00.809 --> 00:16:04.799know it? Yeah, and thatwe are as sinful fallen world. Yeah,21200:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.120and and it's not a perfect world, not even close, and it21300:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.679won't be until we're all in heaven. Yeah, and the new world.21400:16:12.000 --> 00:16:15.919It is here. Yeah, soheavens in the new earth. That's right.21500:16:17.519 --> 00:16:23.629So the A, the sad reality, is because we're working in a21600:16:23.750 --> 00:16:29.350fallen world. That that the perfectoutcome that we want and we want now.21700:16:30.350 --> 00:16:34.299Well, you're working with a fallenworld, yeah, and an in21800:16:34.419 --> 00:16:40.580a fallen and broken system. Asfar as the the government general, styll21900:16:40.659 --> 00:16:44.419and and broken. You know,people who are in the government, the22000:16:44.899 --> 00:16:52.370politicians. So I think it becomesI think the Exeter story is really a22100:16:52.450 --> 00:16:56.730good one, because why did theywander for forty years? Yeah, they22200:16:56.809 --> 00:17:03.320wandered for forty years because they weresinful disobedient, rebellious and God was teaching22300:17:03.480 --> 00:17:10.079them really critical things about himself andabout them. Yeah, absolutely. And22400:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.950while is can can we make thesame parallel with what's happening with abortion?22500:17:15.029 --> 00:17:19.710I don't. I don't know,but I I know that God is working22600:17:19.869 --> 00:17:25.710on all of us. Yeah,and in the same way we are.22700:17:26.029 --> 00:17:30.140We are a fallen people that areseeking to follow God imperfect yeah, yeah,22800:17:30.299 --> 00:17:36.819absolutely so. In this as we'retalking about the Exodus Story and the22900:17:37.019 --> 00:17:41.380conquest of the promised land. HMM, in this story, is God and23000:17:41.500 --> 00:17:47.490immediateist or an incrementalist? Right?And your estimation and what we're reading,23100:17:47.529 --> 00:17:52.049what we're talking about? I'll answerthe question for you. Okay, I23200:17:52.529 --> 00:17:57.450think at least in one sense,God is an immediateist. He wants immediate23300:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.880conquest of the promise and he proclaimsthat at the beginning. Immediately does yeah,23400:18:02.920 --> 00:18:04.759Plat, done, deal right.I want you to go in,23500:18:06.000 --> 00:18:07.640I want you to take possession ofthe land, I want you to eject23600:18:07.680 --> 00:18:14.109all of the sights, parasites andGep his side and him the die,23700:18:14.230 --> 00:18:17.109and I late that. Yet theygot to be pushed out of the land,23800:18:17.269 --> 00:18:19.589annihilated, gone. I want thatso it's almost like, okay,23900:18:19.789 --> 00:18:23.910in in his perfect will, ifwe're going to separate the wheels of God.24000:18:25.069 --> 00:18:26.339I don't want to get into atheological discussion about that. But in24100:18:26.420 --> 00:18:33.700his perfect wheel he wants it immediatelydone, but he's willing to he's willing24200:18:33.740 --> 00:18:38.140to settle for an incremental conquest,and that means doesn't lastmistry say that God's24300:18:38.140 --> 00:18:41.450willing to settle for something? Youknow, I agree with you. I24400:18:41.529 --> 00:18:45.289think that's what we see. Ifhe could have just wiped everybody out,24500:18:45.490 --> 00:18:49.609yeah, and said you didn't listento me. I wanted immediate conquest.24600:18:49.650 --> 00:18:56.279If you'd listen to me, youwould all be drinking milk and gobbling honey24700:18:56.440 --> 00:19:02.319and and living in in this wonderful, wonderful abundant land. Yeah, but24800:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.759it's because of your sin, you'redisobedience, your intermarrying with the people like24900:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.910told you to annihilate. You're makingpeace treaties with the people I told you25000:19:10.990 --> 00:19:12.869to annihilate. I'm just going toget rid of you. But that's not25100:19:12.950 --> 00:19:18.230what happened. It took them sevenyears, but some of the scholars I25200:19:18.390 --> 00:19:23.299read said it took seven years tosettle the promised land and even then it.25300:19:23.779 --> 00:19:27.460They did not completely wipe out theirenemies. Like I said, they25400:19:27.500 --> 00:19:33.500intermarried, they made peace treaties.They're still enemies of God's people now living25500:19:33.539 --> 00:19:40.769in Israel. Yeah. So.So, I think God's heart is probably25600:19:40.809 --> 00:19:42.769an IM mediast. Yeah, hewants all it, just in the same25700:19:42.769 --> 00:19:47.410way as we get into the discussionof salvation. He wants all of us25800:19:47.490 --> 00:19:52.160to come to him immediately, yeah, and and to follow him wholeheartedly and25900:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.799perfectly. That's his desire, butthat's not what we do. Yeah,26000:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.519and that's not what happened in thesettling of the promised land. And instead26100:20:00.519 --> 00:20:06.720of just wiping us out and givingup on us, he walked alongside the26200:20:07.509 --> 00:20:12.269his people as they imperfectly settled.Ye, and he and there were blessings26300:20:12.390 --> 00:20:18.230that came to them from God asthey are imperfectly following his plan. So26400:20:18.430 --> 00:20:26.259I think while his heart is animmediast, his reality with a sinful people26500:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.779is that it was going to beincremental. Yeah, and I think that26600:20:30.980 --> 00:20:34.849you you have to admit that thatis how the Promised Land was settled.26700:20:34.890 --> 00:20:38.970Yeah, was incrementally. Yeah,of course, the the response, since26800:20:40.049 --> 00:20:42.529the valid response is what you saidbefore. You know, okay, if26900:20:42.609 --> 00:20:47.289that's how it was. It wasan incremental thing. Well, they never27000:20:47.410 --> 00:20:51.720really conquered the thing anyway because ofall the covenants in the inner marrying and27100:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.400all that stuff. But you know, God's that the divided kingdom was established27200:20:56.480 --> 00:21:00.400in Israel and the Messiah's line comesafter the Line of David. I mean27300:21:00.440 --> 00:21:07.029the golden age of Israel was afterthe conquest and the establishing of God's Kingdom27400:21:07.029 --> 00:21:12.190and God's new man, David inthat place of rulership. So yeah,27500:21:12.190 --> 00:21:15.029I mean there's a lot to learnin that and I encourage you guys all27600:21:15.150 --> 00:21:18.740to dig into that story, thestory of the exodus, the children of27700:21:18.019 --> 00:21:22.019Israel wandering in the Wilderness. Somany spiritual parallels there. Yeah, and27800:21:22.819 --> 00:21:25.779one of the ones actually I wantto I want to point out, and27900:21:25.819 --> 00:21:27.900then you sort of touched on it. I love this story, so I28000:21:27.980 --> 00:21:30.019have to point it out. It'sone of my favorite stories in the Old28100:21:30.019 --> 00:21:34.329Testament because it's funny but it's alsopretty scary, and it's the treaty that28200:21:34.450 --> 00:21:37.609in Joshua, Chapter Nine, thetreaty that the children Israel made with the28300:21:37.890 --> 00:21:42.690Gibeon, I right, and theywere told to like those Gibby Knights as28400:21:42.769 --> 00:21:48.599getting nights out, and it saysand talking about the Gidea Knights, says28500:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.640they work craftily. This is versefour of Chapter Nine. And Joshua,28600:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.319they work craftily. And went andpretended to be ambassadors and they took old28700:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.160sacks on their donkeys and old wineskins and and torn and men did old28800:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.990patches on their sandals, old garmentson themselves, and all the bread and28900:22:04.109 --> 00:22:07.750there of their provisions was dry andmouldy. So they got tattered, close29000:22:08.309 --> 00:22:11.349muldy bread to make it look likethere were no threat. And they were29100:22:11.470 --> 00:22:15.470from so far away that there wereno thread at all. They all trying29200:22:15.940 --> 00:22:19.220so long that their sandals were up, their bread was rotten. I mean29300:22:19.299 --> 00:22:22.740it's it's like wow, these peoplewent a long way. They were to29400:22:22.819 --> 00:22:26.259really dope that children of Israel.Ba says, Hey, we're not a29500:22:26.500 --> 00:22:29.180thread at all. Just, youknow, make a covenant with Hey,29600:22:29.220 --> 00:22:33.849we we're not even in that promiseand we're not an issue there. And29700:22:33.130 --> 00:22:37.609the children of Israel did make acovenant with these people of giving and actually29800:22:37.609 --> 00:22:41.289God told them they'd had to undertheir covenant. That's right. They couldn't29900:22:41.289 --> 00:22:42.650break this covenant. Made a covenant. God told him they needed honor it.30000:22:42.690 --> 00:22:45.839But Hey, they're going to bea thorn in your side and boil30100:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.759were they? Yeah, in versefourteen, it says then the men of30200:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.960Israel took some of their provisions,but they did not ask counsel of the30300:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.480Lord. So Joshua made peace withthem, made a covenant with them to30400:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.789let them live, and the rulersof the congregation sword of them. So30500:23:00.869 --> 00:23:03.710here he makes a covenant, butI have it underlined actually my Bible here30600:23:03.990 --> 00:23:07.789in verse fourteen. But they didnot seek counsel of the Lord, and30700:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.150that's the problem. They didn't seekGod. If they would have sought God,30800:23:11.430 --> 00:23:15.500God would have showed them these peopleare not from far away. They30900:23:15.500 --> 00:23:18.059are actually a threat. They're justfrom over the other he'll, you know,31000:23:18.460 --> 00:23:22.339and with their multi bread and theirtattered clothes, they're just tricking you.31100:23:22.900 --> 00:23:26.140And you know, I think thiscan be comparative to some of the31200:23:26.259 --> 00:23:30.130politicians out there that claim to beprolife and the want to end abortion.31300:23:30.250 --> 00:23:33.650The fact is they're coming with theirtattered closing, their muldy bread, claiming,31400:23:33.769 --> 00:23:37.450hey, we're no threat. Actuallywe're going to benefit you, like31500:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.450the Gibbeess we're going to be abenefit. You just give us your vote.31600:23:40.809 --> 00:23:42.200Hey, you know, just votefor us, since we're Republicans.31700:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.599We're going to end this thing.In the reality is they're just using prolife31800:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.920people, people with a sensitivity towardthe unborn, for votes, and the31900:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.480reality is they have no intention ofending abortion. So that's one of the32000:23:53.640 --> 00:23:59.029traps and that's one of the thingsthat I appreciate that abolitionists, that you32100:23:59.069 --> 00:24:02.309know, immediateists, would point outis the hypocrisy of a lot of the32200:24:02.630 --> 00:24:07.109politicians and a lot of the legislation. Yeah, however, that does not32300:24:07.349 --> 00:24:12.500mean that there aren't politicians that thatat least genuinely believe that incremental steps are32400:24:12.619 --> 00:24:18.140a good thing and that are goingto ultimately limit and ultimately end abortion.32500:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.140There are some good politicians out thereand maybe they're misguided, I get it.32600:24:22.059 --> 00:24:25.410But in one of the points Ithink that we that we need to32700:24:25.490 --> 00:24:26.890touch on, that we're going totouch on, and we probably already have32800:24:26.970 --> 00:24:32.690just a little bit, is isthe contention that's there and the contentious spirit32900:24:32.809 --> 00:24:37.250that's in a lot of the folkswho would claim to be immediatests that listen33000:24:37.329 --> 00:24:41.319to as we have this particular persuasion. We need to be patient with people.33100:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.319We need to understand that not everybody'son the same page with us and33200:24:45.440 --> 00:24:47.480it's not going to help if wejust say, well, you're not a33300:24:47.519 --> 00:24:49.279Christian, then you know, ifyou don't believe in the immediate abolition of33400:24:49.359 --> 00:24:53.029abortion, you believe that, youknow, incremental steps are good in any33500:24:53.029 --> 00:24:56.309way, then you're not a Christian. Thank you. Just don't read Your33600:24:56.309 --> 00:24:57.750Bible and you're not a Christian.Yeah, now, so that's how that's33700:24:57.869 --> 00:25:03.869harsh accusation to bring against people whomay very well just not. Maybe they33800:25:03.910 --> 00:25:07.029don't have the same information you've got, maybe not stuttered it as much as33900:25:07.069 --> 00:25:10.019yeah, I certainly. Maybe theyhave and they've come to a different conclusion.34000:25:10.140 --> 00:25:12.380And maybe they have and and it. I think he is what you34100:25:12.420 --> 00:25:17.619underlying in your Bible there seek theLord, see Lord and in all that34200:25:17.700 --> 00:25:19.980you do. One of the thingsthat I thought of as I was exploring34300:25:21.059 --> 00:25:26.289this topic was would what I doout on the sidewalk, where I'm actively34400:25:26.529 --> 00:25:33.690intervening in the abortion minded woman's desireto kill her baby, would it change34500:25:34.170 --> 00:25:41.279if I was an immediaist or aincrementalist right and my work would not.34600:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.880Yeah, our work would not thepeople on the front lines would still share34700:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.789the gospel. If there're a GospelFocus Ministry, as ours is, they34800:25:49.829 --> 00:25:56.390would still intercede on behalf of thatchild, based on God's clear word about34900:25:56.390 --> 00:26:00.789the sanctity of that baby's life andthe value of that child's life, and35000:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.420we would still offer hope and help. Yes, so for to see all35100:26:04.460 --> 00:26:11.420the rancor and even hatred of groupswho don't agree, yeah, against fellow35200:26:11.460 --> 00:26:17.180Christians, does damage, I think. I'm not sure if it does more35300:26:17.220 --> 00:26:22.569damage than good in fact. Yeah, because the world is watchain and and35400:26:22.769 --> 00:26:26.730weird to be known by our love. Yeah, love and unity. And35500:26:26.890 --> 00:26:30.569you know, some folks might willsay, Hey, love and unity,35600:26:30.650 --> 00:26:33.240that's all fine and Danny, butwe're not supposed to be unified with evil35700:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.279and by you know, folks whowould, I think, be more inclined35800:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.960to the abolitionist persuasion would say,you know, the Pro Life Movement is35900:26:41.039 --> 00:26:44.400just plain evil. Yeah, andthey for we can't be associated with it.36000:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.069You know, Feesians five, wasit seventeen? Having a fellowship with36100:26:48.069 --> 00:26:49.269him, Froo, for works ofdarkness rather exposed. I think it's five,36200:26:49.390 --> 00:26:52.990seventeen. Five seven something. Youguys can you guys can look it36300:26:52.029 --> 00:26:56.309up. This is an Effasian stepsof us has, yeah, an efficians36400:26:56.309 --> 00:27:00.069chapter follow. So we're not supposedto have fellowship with him. Frou faction36500:27:00.109 --> 00:27:02.859of darkness that I might say.You know, the pro life movements unfruit36600:27:02.900 --> 00:27:06.140for work of darkness. But youknow what, I know too many people.36700:27:06.420 --> 00:27:08.619Yeah, and it's not about experience. But these are godly people who36800:27:08.660 --> 00:27:14.619whose lives line up with the scripturesand who live their hearts after the Lord36900:27:14.660 --> 00:27:18.170and are loving them their neighbor asthemselves. Who would say their pro life?37000:27:18.170 --> 00:27:21.170You know, say I'm pro life. Somebody asked me, are you37100:27:21.250 --> 00:27:23.690pro life about? Yeah, it'snot because, you know, I agree37200:27:23.730 --> 00:27:29.089with everything the quote pro life movementdoes, but it's because people know what37300:27:29.170 --> 00:27:30.000you're saying. Hey, you know. If you say, well, no,37400:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.119I might abolitionists, well then yougot to you get into this whole37500:27:34.200 --> 00:27:38.440big explanation of what that even meansand why that's similar to abolition of slavery.37600:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.519But but this and that, andthis and that and all the reasons37700:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.470why you don't say your pro lifejust like okay, I'm pro life.37800:27:45.069 --> 00:27:51.710I'm Christian first and because I'm aChristian, I'm prolife, I'm anti abortion.37900:27:51.950 --> 00:27:53.670I have no problem with some Icall me anti abortion, like you38000:27:53.670 --> 00:28:00.140can call me anti sex trafficking,anti lying, anti stealing. I'm antie38100:28:00.220 --> 00:28:02.980those things. Things are that Godis against. I'm against you know.38200:28:03.180 --> 00:28:06.220So, yeah, it's a littlecaveat there, but yeah, there's a38300:28:06.259 --> 00:28:11.059passage and I think we've pointed thisout in some other podcast, but it's38400:28:11.099 --> 00:28:14.650so important, I think, forwe, the Christian minister, for somebody38500:28:14.650 --> 00:28:21.690WHO's ministering in on the streets,on the sidewalks entered whatever whatever context you're38600:28:21.730 --> 00:28:23.170minishing. The GOSAM were all calledto be Christian ministers, by the way,38700:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.000but you know I mean. Yeah, and this is in Second Timothy,38800:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.359Chapter Two and Verse Twenty Four.And The Servant of the Lord must38900:28:32.359 --> 00:28:37.759not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach patient and humility,39000:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.789correcting those who are in opposition.So in humility, correcting those are opposition,39100:28:41.269 --> 00:28:45.430if God will perhaps grant them repentanceso that they may know the truth,39200:28:45.950 --> 00:28:48.430that they may come to their sensesand escape the snare of the devil,39300:28:48.470 --> 00:28:51.869having been taken captive by him.To do as well and so we39400:28:52.029 --> 00:28:56.380have to in humility. If thereare people that don't embrace things that we39500:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.059know to be Biblical Truth and Biblicalstandards, we have to, in humility39600:29:00.140 --> 00:29:04.579and with gentleness, answer them.And just going on facebook and being a39700:29:04.660 --> 00:29:11.410keyboard warrior in blasting everybody who doesn'tagree with your persuasion is not obeying that39800:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.410scripture. This is brother Paul whowrote this to Timothy, who suffered a39900:29:15.730 --> 00:29:22.250lot of persecution. He suffered alot of accusations from Jews and gentiles,40000:29:22.289 --> 00:29:25.880and yet he's given to Timothy thischarge. This is how you ought to40100:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.519be. Got To be gentle.Yeah, I definitely had that sense from40200:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.839Carl who you interview. That wasmy first time, I believe, meeting40300:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.160him and he was a gentle souland he seemed to have a very kind40400:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.150and open yeah, exchange. Yeah, if I listen, I've seen the40500:29:41.190 --> 00:29:45.549nasty on both sides. I've seenthe nasty on the prolife side. I40600:29:45.670 --> 00:29:49.630seen the nasty on the your right, abolitionist right media side and the nasty.40700:29:49.950 --> 00:29:53.140Listen, guys, it doesn't help. It doesn't help one bit.40800:29:53.180 --> 00:29:59.460It makes it makes the whole thing, the whole anti abortion movement. Yeah,40900:29:59.460 --> 00:30:03.940maybe everybody would be under that umbrella. I don't know, look bad.41000:30:03.980 --> 00:30:06.940Yeah, and it's not all aboutoutward appearances. Is Ultimate. It's41100:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.650about honoring God. That should bethe chief concern of everything, not even41200:30:10.690 --> 00:30:14.490the abolition of abortion. Yeah,listen, if your chief goal in life41300:30:14.650 --> 00:30:18.369is to abolish abortion, you're missingthe mark. Your chief goal in life41400:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.640should be to glorify the Lord JesusChrist. That should be your chief goal.41500:30:22.920 --> 00:30:27.559And you glorify him by, youknow, abolishing abortion, by Proclam41600:30:27.839 --> 00:30:32.799proclamation of the Gospel, by standingin front of an abortion kinic and trying41700:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.269to say babies. But and wasn'tit Jesus himself who said a house divided41800:30:36.349 --> 00:30:40.230against it itself will not stand?Yeah, and you know, you look41900:30:40.269 --> 00:30:45.190at okay, on both sides arepeople most I would say, that that42000:30:45.509 --> 00:30:52.180deeply desire those babies to be rescued. Yeah, and so if if we're42100:30:52.220 --> 00:31:02.740doing a good work and and babiesare are being saved and the other campus42200:31:02.900 --> 00:31:07.250saying that this is evil, well, that's you're working against what is really42300:31:07.410 --> 00:31:12.130a joint purpose. Yeah, commonpurpose, which is that God would be42400:31:12.210 --> 00:31:18.960glorified first and that babies would besaved and and and and come to abortion.42500:31:19.000 --> 00:31:25.400Yeah, so well, should we? Should we hop into the second42600:31:25.680 --> 00:31:29.480yeah, absolutely. And Yeah,so we're really not talking about an event,42700:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.150like historical event in the sense that, you know, we're doing at42800:31:33.190 --> 00:31:36.910individuals being say, which is ahorse historical event, based on the historical42900:31:36.950 --> 00:31:40.589event of Jesus Christ Crucifixion, correctresurrection. We're talking about, you know,43000:31:40.670 --> 00:31:48.059a biblical thing that happens, abiblical construct that we see here in43100:31:48.140 --> 00:31:52.619the Bible, and it's salvation basicallyas well. That's right, and that's43200:31:52.660 --> 00:31:56.819yours, in to a mediatist andincrementalist understanding of abolishing abortion. Yeah,43300:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.140of abortion. And the more thatI looked at at the more I thought43400:32:00.220 --> 00:32:07.250of the immediist, immediatist position inwhat Jesus says on the cross, so43500:32:07.130 --> 00:32:15.720pivotal event. He, Jesus,dies on the Cross and as he is43600:32:15.759 --> 00:32:21.720about to give up his spirit,he says the words it is finished.43700:32:21.880 --> 00:32:28.960Yeah, and in part that isit's done, his life is finished here43800:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.750on earth as a as a human. He's referring not only to his death,43900:32:31.789 --> 00:32:37.630yeah, but to his fact,to the fact that that sacrifice that44000:32:37.789 --> 00:32:45.019was necessarcessary to secure the salvation ofthe world through faith in him is done.44100:32:45.019 --> 00:32:51.059Yeah, when he dies on thecross, the sacrifices made, it44200:32:51.619 --> 00:32:55.180is finished. Yeah, it isdone, it is complete, and all44300:32:55.460 --> 00:33:00.009who submit their lives to him andaccept that what he has done on their44400:33:00.130 --> 00:33:07.650behalf are saved. Yeah, soit was an immediate moment it in terms44500:33:07.690 --> 00:33:10.970of our discussion of immediate versus incremental, there was a moment where he says44600:33:10.970 --> 00:33:16.920it is finished. Yeah, allthat folutness. And yet you know,44700:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.799if you look at at lots ofverses in the Bible and think about the44800:33:22.920 --> 00:33:30.230sanctification of God's people, it isan ongoing, gradual, incremental process.44900:33:30.390 --> 00:33:35.029Yeah, just like lundering. Soone of the things that I'll say,45000:33:36.269 --> 00:33:37.829and I like to use just everydaylanguage, said, okay, no one45100:33:37.869 --> 00:33:42.940get offended that I'm not using,like you, all these Greek terms and45200:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.220all this, but basically I'll saywhen you signed up for Christianity, you45300:33:45.339 --> 00:33:50.099signed up for one thing. Hesigned up to become more like Jesus h45400:33:50.380 --> 00:33:52.980and that is God's commitment to you. Your commitment to him is Lord,45500:33:53.660 --> 00:33:57.849I'm sinful and I need to besaved, conform me to the image of45600:33:57.849 --> 00:34:00.130Christ. His commitmenties use. I'mgoing to conform you to the image of45700:34:00.130 --> 00:34:04.410Christ. That's right, and that'snot about yeah, but not immediately.45800:34:04.450 --> 00:34:08.969Be Be transformed with the renewing ofyour mind. Yeah, so it's not45900:34:09.079 --> 00:34:15.119in with it's not an immediate renewal. It's renewing. You are renewing.46000:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.840It is a process. Yeah,and do not be conformed to the world,46100:34:17.880 --> 00:34:23.309but be transformed in an ongoing process. So think about Roman seven,46200:34:23.389 --> 00:34:27.070one thousand nine hundred and twenty five. Okay, that that's a good one.46300:34:27.150 --> 00:34:35.389That's where Paul is is expressing thestruggle of we are saved and there46400:34:35.510 --> 00:34:38.219is a moment at which we submitour lives to the Lord. Okay,46500:34:38.340 --> 00:34:43.380well, versus, but that wasRoman seven nineteen to twenty five. Okay,46600:34:43.460 --> 00:34:46.780you know. But from that pointforward we are on a lifelong journey46700:34:47.380 --> 00:34:53.610to reach what God has promised,and incremental journey and in because we are46800:34:54.250 --> 00:35:00.690still in the flesh and and there'salways that flesh nature that is struggling against46900:35:00.730 --> 00:35:07.010the spirit of God. Yeah,that God's spiritual renewal in us. So,47000:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.639yeah, those are Roman seven nineteento twenty five. Okay, yeah,47100:35:09.639 --> 00:35:15.000I read that right here. SoRomans Nineteen to twenty five, for47200:35:15.039 --> 00:35:16.519the good that I will do Ido not do, but the evil that47300:35:16.679 --> 00:35:21.909I will not do that I practice. Now, if I do what I47400:35:22.309 --> 00:35:24.909will not to do, it isno longer I who do it, but47500:35:24.989 --> 00:35:29.829sin who dwells in me. AndI find then a law that evil is47600:35:29.949 --> 00:35:32.750present with with me, the onewho wills to do good, for I47700:35:32.909 --> 00:35:36.179delight in the Law of God,according to the inward man, but I47800:35:36.260 --> 00:35:38.420see another law in my members,warring against the law of my mind and47900:35:38.579 --> 00:35:43.179bringing me into captivity to the Lawof sin which is in my members,48000:35:43.619 --> 00:35:46.019a wretched man that I am,who will deliver me from this body of48100:35:46.179 --> 00:35:51.690death? Verse Twenty Five, Ithink God through Jesus Christ, Our Lord.48200:35:52.010 --> 00:35:54.050So then, with the mind,with the mind, I myself serve48300:35:54.210 --> 00:35:57.769the law of God, but withthe flesh the law of sin. So48400:35:57.929 --> 00:36:01.769he's talking about this struggle of doingright and and choosing to do wrong and48500:36:02.489 --> 00:36:07.159and ultimately God's commitment to us.Yeah, that he's going to bring us48600:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.800into a place of conformity to Christif will surrender to him. So it48700:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.079does. It doesn't happen instantly.It's he's struggling. Yeah, he's struggles,48800:36:15.280 --> 00:36:17.630as we all. I I surecan relate to those verses. I48900:36:19.070 --> 00:36:22.150I know I'm going to struggle tillthe day I die. I think I49000:36:22.030 --> 00:36:25.670win more often than I lose,the more that I am transformed into the49100:36:25.789 --> 00:36:29.630likeness of Christ. I did.I told you the other day I was49200:36:29.750 --> 00:36:32.300I was round down the road,I was following my phone to my destination49300:36:34.139 --> 00:36:37.500and when I got there, myphone says you've arrived and I was like,49400:36:37.659 --> 00:36:42.739where you been? I've arrived along time ago, Sirie, I've49500:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.340arrived. No, we've not arrived. I've not arrived. I have to49600:36:45.380 --> 00:36:47.289argue with my phone. I'm nota rob. I'm sorry, I'm at49700:36:47.329 --> 00:36:50.449my destination, but the Lord isstill working on me. You know,49800:36:50.769 --> 00:36:52.489you'LD tongue. He still working onme. That's the reality. That's the49900:36:52.570 --> 00:36:57.969process of sanctification. As as we, like you said, as we mature50000:36:58.050 --> 00:37:01.400in Christ, we become more andmore like Jesus, but we're also ever50100:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.119reminded of our inadequacies, in ourweaknesses, knowing the like, the closer50200:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.159we get to Christ, the morewe see we need him right. So,50300:37:09.639 --> 00:37:15.119even though salvation, I would say, wow, the Bible would say50400:37:15.159 --> 00:37:17.510the salvation being born of the spirit, is an immediate thing, the process50500:37:17.590 --> 00:37:22.190of conforming to Christ is an incrementalthing. Is God is doing is it's50600:37:22.190 --> 00:37:25.469almost like, again, not usingtheological terms, just everyday language. It's50700:37:25.469 --> 00:37:30.099almost like God'll take what he canget right and at the more that will50800:37:30.179 --> 00:37:32.500surrender to him, the more he'llconforms to the image of Christ. And50900:37:32.659 --> 00:37:37.500again, the ultimate goal is thatwe're conformed to the image of Christ.51000:37:37.780 --> 00:37:44.289And it's all a tapestry. Andyou know, we can't see this beautiful51100:37:44.289 --> 00:37:49.010tapestry that God has created as afinished work. We see that tapestry as51200:37:49.050 --> 00:37:52.449it's being woven and and there's allthese different threads and all of us are51300:37:52.610 --> 00:37:57.929part of that tapestry that's being woven. So what is happening to US during51400:37:58.010 --> 00:38:05.400this process? This incremental clearly anincremental process is something that others around us51500:38:05.440 --> 00:38:09.360are affected by. Yeah, andyou never know how those struggles and people51600:38:09.400 --> 00:38:15.230watching you go through those struggles andwatching you prevail and sometimes watching you fail,51700:38:15.670 --> 00:38:20.550how that affects their relationship with theLord and they are understanding of the51800:38:20.670 --> 00:38:24.190Lord and it. He weaves itall together beautifully and I think that that51900:38:24.750 --> 00:38:31.460is throughout the Bible, every incrementalprocess, the the the Israelites entering the52000:38:31.500 --> 00:38:37.860Promised Land and sanctification as we growin a likeness of Christ. Every incremental52100:38:37.980 --> 00:38:45.050process not only brings us closer tothe Lord and is a benefit to us,52200:38:45.289 --> 00:38:50.849but it benefits those around us whowere watching and who are also seeing52300:38:51.010 --> 00:38:54.690God, maybe in a way thatthey wouldn't see if it had happened instantly.52400:38:54.719 --> 00:39:01.519Yeah, so I and I thinkthat's a maybe a what would be52500:39:01.639 --> 00:39:08.880the word? The beauty of incrementalism, okay, is is that if God52600:39:08.920 --> 00:39:15.349had shown me all my sin allat once, I would have committed suicide.52700:39:15.389 --> 00:39:20.230Yeah, because it was so horrimless. Yeah, it was too much.52800:39:20.710 --> 00:39:24.019Even now, when he's like peelingback the layers as as I remember52900:39:24.179 --> 00:39:29.500them, there are still times thatI still cringe and and think I couldn't53000:39:29.500 --> 00:39:31.940have handled this before I knew Godbetter. Yeah, but I know that53100:39:32.059 --> 00:39:35.539I'm forgiven, I know that I'msaved and I know that I'm on a53200:39:35.579 --> 00:39:40.210journey. Yeah, so God's Ithink God is clearly in that area and53300:39:40.409 --> 00:39:45.050incrementalist, not because it was hisdesire, but because he's, like you53400:39:45.130 --> 00:39:49.409said, he'll take us where weare or I'll take what he can get.53500:39:49.769 --> 00:39:53.639Well, what he's got is peoplewho are steeped in sin, with53600:39:54.320 --> 00:40:00.000with deceitful hearts. Yeah, andhe his desire might be that we would53700:40:00.000 --> 00:40:07.469immediately be changed, but the realityis it's a process. So it contrasts53800:40:07.630 --> 00:40:13.789to that. Is Hebrews Thousand andten. Okay, you want to find53900:40:13.789 --> 00:40:15.989that? Yeah, well, yougot in reading. I've got okay,54000:40:15.989 --> 00:40:19.789yeah, I've got it. Bythis we will have been sanctified through the54100:40:19.989 --> 00:40:23.739offering of the body of Jesus Christonce for all. Yeah, and that54200:40:23.940 --> 00:40:28.619just kind of sounds like it almostnegates what I just said. Right,54300:40:29.059 --> 00:40:32.219once for all. It's immediate.Yeah, it's immediate again, just his54400:40:32.699 --> 00:40:37.929by it we will have been sanctifiedthrough the offering of his body once for54500:40:38.090 --> 00:40:47.090all. So contrast that with Philippianstwo twelve. Therefore, my beloved,54600:40:47.449 --> 00:40:52.480as you have always obeyed, sonow, not only as in my presence54700:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.880but much more in my absence,work out your own salvation with fear and54800:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.239trembling. Well, I thought itwas once for all. Yeah, why54900:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.829are we working things out? Yeah, so, so there's a there's a55000:41:05.030 --> 00:41:08.070there's a right now and not yetconcept to a lot of the things in55100:41:08.190 --> 00:41:12.710the scriptures. You know, there'sa right now and not yet. In,55200:41:13.389 --> 00:41:16.909you know, in the children ofIsraels and their story from the Wilderness55300:41:17.030 --> 00:41:20.940to the Promised Land, there's aright now and not yet. As far55400:41:20.940 --> 00:41:23.059as salvation, you know, somefolks say salvation comes in a couple of55500:41:23.139 --> 00:41:25.940different tenses. You know, youhave been saved, you are being saved55600:41:25.980 --> 00:41:30.980and you will be saved, andthat's true. I believe the Greek Lens55700:41:30.980 --> 00:41:34.250itself to that. Yeah, soyou know, there is this concept and55800:41:34.570 --> 00:41:37.889I think you know, even thoughwe've probably not will, we've not sought55900:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.409to answer the questions, got anincrementalist or an immediate test, we've hopefully56000:41:43.530 --> 00:41:46.840spurred some thought for you guys justto be thinking about this thing biblically and,56100:41:46.960 --> 00:41:52.159more than anything, to help peopleto wheel back some of the accusations56200:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.639and some of the you know,attributing evil motives to people, and that56300:41:54.800 --> 00:41:59.280certainly I would think there are peoplein both camps that have some evil motives,56400:41:59.599 --> 00:42:01.190because you got centers in each camp, you know, and you got56500:42:01.269 --> 00:42:06.349people who maybe not don't even knowthe Lord and in both camps and just56600:42:06.789 --> 00:42:09.510are on board with some kind ofmovement or something like that. But you56700:42:09.630 --> 00:42:13.789know you've got you got fallen humanbeings with a fallen understanding, a limited56800:42:13.789 --> 00:42:17.059understanding. We've got to be carefulwith our accusations that we throw at people.56900:42:17.219 --> 00:42:21.460Yeah, and if we have aparticular conviction, and we should have57000:42:21.579 --> 00:42:23.539be people of conviction, it shouldn'tbe just anything goes. Nothing's a big57100:42:23.579 --> 00:42:27.539deal. This is a big deal. Portions a big deal. It's we57200:42:27.699 --> 00:42:31.050need to be happy these conversations.There needs to be debates about these conversations.57300:42:31.530 --> 00:42:35.809That's how the Church has done itfor since the beginning. Yeah,57400:42:36.010 --> 00:42:39.489there's debates about certain theological points andcertain things and all of this, and57500:42:39.530 --> 00:42:43.929there should be that. So,so I'm not saying we shouldn't have those57600:42:43.929 --> 00:42:46.599conversations and the exchanges on facebook shouldn'tbe made. They should be made.57700:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.840Book should be written in all thatstuff. But the accusations against people.57800:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.480But just because they are not inyour camp, that their unbelievers, that57900:42:54.719 --> 00:42:58.989that doesn't honor the Lord and Ithought, I think, and you know58000:42:59.070 --> 00:43:02.630kind of I wrote a summary ofwhat I came to under stand is as58100:43:02.750 --> 00:43:07.789I grappled with this issue, andI want to read that summary. Okay,58200:43:07.869 --> 00:43:14.139because I think in part both campsthere is biblical truth. There could58300:43:14.139 --> 00:43:16.619be biblical support from both sides andI think that's important. So I I58400:43:17.820 --> 00:43:22.860came to the conclusion that God isboth an immediate to a mediatist and an58500:43:22.900 --> 00:43:28.809incrementalist, and if he were notthe first, we would have no glorious58600:43:28.849 --> 00:43:34.409absolute standard to obtain, yeah,and to strive for. But if he58700:43:34.650 --> 00:43:39.289were not the second, none ofus would be transformed and conformed to his58800:43:39.530 --> 00:43:46.559likeness. Yeah, so God isis an immediatist and an incrementalist in some58900:43:46.719 --> 00:43:51.000ways. So both camps can hateus there. Yeah. So, like59000:43:51.079 --> 00:43:52.760I said when we started, Ithink we're going to make some right off59100:43:52.800 --> 00:43:57.949and everybody, which is fine.If you're offended, that's fine. Let59200:43:57.989 --> 00:44:00.469us know why you're offended. Shootme an email. D Parks at cities59300:44:00.510 --> 00:44:06.909for lifecom. Shoot Vicky and email. She's easier to pick on because you'll59400:44:06.989 --> 00:44:10.139just start the question ever to meactually think and we'll debate it. We'll59500:44:10.139 --> 00:44:14.460talk about it. Yeah, becausethe organ cities for lifecom want to hear59600:44:14.500 --> 00:44:15.980from you guys. We are goingto throw this article that Vicky rode out59700:44:16.260 --> 00:44:20.579on our sidewalks for life site andwe'll probably throw it up on our sidewalks59800:44:20.619 --> 00:44:24.250for life facebook page. We justwant these things to be a blessing.59900:44:24.289 --> 00:44:30.210Want to spur thought, Biblical thought, and encourage people to to honor the60000:44:30.289 --> 00:44:34.570Lord in their actions on the I'dewalkbut also in their actions on the social60100:44:34.650 --> 00:44:38.079media sphere. But we do wantto hear you guys responses to this.60200:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.679Did we miss something? Is theresomething we we glazed over that we needed60300:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.760to focus on a little more?Are there other scriptures that come to mind60400:44:45.840 --> 00:44:50.320and there's a lot that you thinkare important about this subject? We'd love60500:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.639to hear him. So you canshoot me an email, shoot Vicki an60600:44:52.679 --> 00:44:55.309email. But you know, goodcheck out too is we always talk about60700:44:55.309 --> 00:44:59.150our sidewalks for life site. Getchecked that out. Sidewalks the number four60800:44:59.349 --> 00:45:02.590lifecom. It's the sidewalk counseling website. That's what it's for, to encourage60900:45:02.630 --> 00:45:07.300people to be Gospel centered voices atthe abortion clinics. You can check US61000:45:07.300 --> 00:45:10.420OUT LOCALLY CHARLOTTE DOT cities for LifeDot Org. But we hope you guys61100:45:10.420 --> 00:45:20.579are blessed and listening and until nexttime, be blessed. Gift for Love,61200:45:23.289 --> 00:45:31.730give me our loft for gratitude.I know it will cost me my61300:45:32.090 --> 00:45:39.480love. Nothing's too precious. Andsome met you