Is Ectopic Pregnancy A Death Sentence?

0:02 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord, I am yours. I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. This episode we're going to talk about a pretty difficult subject, a topic pregnancy. We think it's going to be an informative and helpful episode, so stay tuned. Send Me, Lord. I felt show passish, touch your heart. Use Me. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys listening and, as always, we appreciate if you guys would leave us a review on itunes. I know some folks have asked how to leave a review on itunes and you know, look it up, because it's actually not easy, to be honest with you. If you go on Itunes, are you go on the apple PODCAST APP? It's not easy to find how to leave a review. But actually, if you just scrow down to the very bottom, as you're in our podcast, you can scroll down and you can see how to leave a review. Five stars are great. We like five star reviews. They're fun and they might help counteract some of the one star reviews or some of the negative thousand star reviews that we've gotten over the past couple of months. Not from our normal get were not from our normal viewership but from some pretty nasty pro abortion people, which I hopefully in the next podcast will read some more of those reviews. I think it blessed people to listen. They're in your fund reviews. They heart preying. But today we're going to cover a subject that I hope will be a blessing to you guys,

1:34 and it's a question that a lot of pro life people have, a lot of people on the sidewalk. It's something you're going to run into, if you haven't in your ministry, on the sidewalk, you're going to run into this. You probably already have, but it's the subject of ectopic pregnancy. Now, right off bat we're going to make sure and let everybody know we're not medical professionals. I'm not, Vicky is not and our guest, Lisa is not a medical professional. So we're not giving medical advice. What we're giving is just our experience. Lisa has experience in dealing with MOMS that have had ectopic pregnancies, but also experience in ectopic pregnancy herself. So she doing a speak from a unique perspective and we're also going to be referencing an article that I guess we'll put out in the show notes of the podcast, right, ectopic personhood from the personhood initiative, the personhood initiative. And yes, the name of the article is sectopic personhood. Yeah, and it's a real healthful article. So we're going to be referencing that article sum but we're going to talk really again around sidewalk counseling and dealing with the subject of ectopic pregnancy when you're talking to a mom who's going into an abortion center. And we've had volunteers, Vicky, you mentioned before we started this podcast that one of our newer volunteers. One of our questions on our volunteer application is you think that there's any exceptions that make it okay for a mother to have an abortion, and for the most part people say no, there's no exceptions.

3:00 But this young lady, xte said Yeah, but only in the case of ectopic pregnancy, and the reality is that she didn't really understand all of the INS and out so this you were able to call and talk to her about this and so we're going to talk about some of that. But we also understand that even in within pro life ministries and with individuals. There's differing opinions and views on ectopic pregnancy and we're not going to pretend to solve all of that because it is a pretty actually difficult question to really try to just answer and here's, here's the exact answer to it. But I think we're going to give you, guys, at least some information that you can process, you can pray about and that will help you in dealing with moms who are considering abortions because they've been told that they have an ectopic pregnancy. So that's a long beginning to hopefully a good discussion about ectopic pregnancy. But, Lisa, real quick just introduce yourself and just so you folks know, Lisa has been involved on the sidewalk for a long time. She's going to share a little bit about that and she and her family were instrumental in starting cities for life back in two thousand and ten or before that. So but introduce yourself on your with your with your own terms. They're sure. My name is Lisa metscer and I am a second generation sidewalk counselor. My parents brought me out at a very young age to the sidewalk to offer hope and help to

4:31 a woman that was going into a board. So I've been at this a really long time and, as Daniel said, I helped mark and I helped my husband mark and I helped with setting up cities for life and getting that ball rolling there. So that was quite a privilege and then just to see where it has gone. What is amazing we have fourteen children. Three of those children are adopted and we have a whole bunch of children in heaven because of miscarriage and one of those babies that we lost was an ectopic pregnancies. So yeahs can speak from experience coming from this. So yeah, and it was Lisa that got me involved and cities and cities for life and ultimately and sidewalk consulated and where where we are today. So I really appreciate Lisa.

5:19 So she especially appreciate you coming on a you get get fourteen kids. Yeah, it's not easy to get away, yeah, from the House, I'm sure. I'm sure the opportunity to come and do a podcast here in the office was maybe just opportunity that you seized and you get little skate time. Yeah, we do appreciate you come and so I do want to so that we don't go right into the issue of ectopic practice. We'll talk a little bit about your experience because I think we'll just capitalize on this moment. I said your second generation sidewalk counselors. So your parents were involved. WAS IT operation rest? And that's right. They started when operation rescue began and kind of went from there into different opportunities. Yeah, Rally for life, yeah, like that. So, yeah, yeah, and that was back in the s late S. I think we got involved, s early S.

6:09 wow. Yeah, and then you got involved and then ultimately instrumental in starting cities for life. And now your kids, your daughter kids, are out there. Yeah, your daughter Caitlyn, who's what, she's twenty one and twenty one, is out there almost every Saturday minister and on our Saturday team, and she's just a tremendous blessing. So there's like three generations and we should do a podcast about that. Yeah, it the generation of yeah, actually, I do want to do a podcast. Maybe you guys watch out for that one about being raised in the pro life movement. Maybe I'll get Kaitlyn. What do you think? Yes, my well, yeah, because I think that is a unique perspective. But yeah, I wanted to touch on that and just again give you guys your family props for for what you did in starting cities for life and ultimately is led to love life. Love life sort of sprung out of cities for life in one sense, and then now love life is just going nationwide and we're seeing God. Yeah, we're seeing God raise up people all over the the United States, all over the world, and I find myself, actually, and I know you do too, Vicki referencing things back to to the og crowd, dude, to Liza and to Janette, the Wilson family, to the Bendoms and just those who originally started some of the things that you guys put together. And I think maybe even this person, person, I think it is article right, it was from them. Yeah, it's guy found and put it out. Yeah, so that all of our sidewalk counselors can be informed about this. So we do appreciate you. So let's let's talk about the issue of ectopic pregnancy.

7:42 Yeah, first and foremost, what are we even talking about? What does this mean? Some people may not even know what this term means. Right. So let's let lea say yeah, define define what what that is. extopic pregnancy is a child that has been conceived, is already growing, but has implanted in somewhere other than the uterus. So that can be the Philippian Tube, that can be the abdominal cavity, that can be in the in the ovary itself. So it's anything outside the uterus. Yeah, okay, and often times, more often than anywhere else, it's actually the in Filopian Tobe. Correct, although I've encountered situations. I had one, this is probably you and a half or so ago, where a young man came over and told me his wife had an ectopic pregnancy. It was a cervical pregnancy. Yeah, which is pretty, pretty dangerous. So there are other ectopic pregnancies, but if you encounter any of is a small portion of pregnancies that are ectopic, but the larger portion of that small portion are in the Pelopian tube. So that's mainly we're going to be talking about, although there are other places where a baby could be placed. So and of course the danger is that the Floppian tube and all those other places except the if they somehow get into the abdomen, they there isn't room to expand with that without that part of your body bursting, right, and then the resultant hemorrhaching.

9:07 Is is the issue, right. So I don't know about what you knew prior to you becoming a mother, but my understanding of ectopic pregnancy before reading this article was that this was not only a death sentence for the mother, but a death sentence for the baby. So of course the abortion almost sounds reasonable, right, or does sound reasonable, if that's what you truly believe? They're both going to die, so at least save one, which would which would be the mother. So tell us about maybe just to kind of help us to understand what it is from a very personal experience to face an ectopic pregnancy, what you went through, what you did, and and then we'll go from there maybe to talk about some of the research that in this personhood initiative article. That is really very eye opening, right. Yeah, well, this was back in two thousand and six when I found out I was pregnant. I was kind of surprised by it actually, because I had had two cycles before where I was pregnant but didn't know it until after that at that second cycle. So it took me by surprised. I was shocked at the location of the baby. I'd actually had some pain. So I went into my obe. They did an ultrasound and they told me that the baby was growing in still had a heartbeat in the tube, in my Philippian Tube. So how far along were you at that point? That was about

10:39 eight weeks. Wow. Yeah, so that was a little bit scary. They were going to go in and they offered me two different options. They said surgery, which would probably be the better of the two options, given the size of the baby. So they said surgery where they could either try to remove the baby from the tube or remove the tube completely, or to give me a drug called at the truck sate. So I know immediately I didn't, you know, coming from that pro life background, that did not sit well, did did they? Did they think that there was any way like, did they ever mention anything, transplant, you know, anything to give you any hope? Or was it just the baby must be killed in order to stay here? Yes, yes, the baby, you know, needed was going to die. Is What they told me. Yeah, or I could die from, you know, my tube rupturing right, which they said could be any moment, and it's a scary place to be but I knew, because of my background, I knew, because of what I knew about the Lord and what he said about giving and taking life, that that wasn't in my my control. I didn't want to take control over ending someone else's life, and so I told the doctor that, and I don't think it came to a surprise to my doctor. They kind of knew exactly where I stood. They said, well, there is this other method of dealing with a Tu bullock topic pregnancy, and that is called expectant management. I had never heard of this. Right, I didn't know a whole lot about a topic pregnancy, but I knew enough to know that those were probably going

12:13 to be the only two option. I was given the surgery in the method, truck say, and I said No. So they gave me this other option. They said, listen, we'll take your HCG levels, the baby probably won't survive, will do repeat ultrasound. You go home, beyond Bedrest, lie down, see what happens, and I obviously opted for that, knowing what I knew and having the convictions I had, and I went home and waited it out. I went for repeat testing and by that point the baby had passed so I rested fully and knowing that I had done everything I could do for that baby and that I had chosen something that I could live with, where I could not have lived with choosing to have my baby forcibly removed or its life supply ended. Yeah, you know, at my choice.

13:05 How long was it from the point that you were told that you had an eck topic pregnancy to the point at which the baby had died? It was actually only a couple days. After only a couple of days. Do you know, and I don't know off hand, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but do you know how often that happens, that the baby does indeed die? It's it's pretty often because the baby's constricted, and I think it actually says in that personhood article right there about that. Yeah, the statistics. Okay, so maybe we'll find that later. Is this we go through that? So did you have to have then surgery to have the baby removed? Is that a point to which can the baby passed?

13:45 Naturally, they told me that it would probably be reabsorbed, and so, as far as I know, that's what happened. Okay, okay, so your tubes never ruptured, never had to rupture. Okay, all right, and I was told what to do when they sent me home. You know if I showed signs of rupture, what I should do. Okay, and that's the important kind of point to this whole method is they're watching over, they're keeping a close eye. So it's called expectant management management, so they're making sure that you're okay. They're kind of a wait and see option here and again. The point is that you don't want to intentionally take the life of your child, knowing what you know now, I do want to say this for people who have dealt with this. Maybe there's people that are listening that have dealt with this, that have had a topic pregnancy, went to the doctor, the doctor recommended this and that you could be in a position sometimes, especially when you're already kind of scared and shaken, to make a really rash decision. And doctors a lot of times are risk adverse and so they're going to take the path of least resistance and, especially if they're not pro life doctors, they're gonna just okay, well, when in doubt, they get out. And so maybe there's people that are listening that you kind of took that option. We don't, we want, don't want to bring any condemnation, any guilt and say that you, Lisa is better than you or or anything like that. No, thank God she dug a little deeper and they talked about this expected management and you know, it didn't work

15:16 out good for the child, but it did work out good for you and you don't have the guilt of of knowing that you intentionally did that. Those again, who are listening who maybe you don't know what you don't know, as if you didn't know this was an option, then how are you going to be able to access that option? However, now you know, and even talking to a mom to kind of bring it around to really what we want is to help, encourage side well counselors, to help a mom who's telling you she has ecked topic pregnancy to know that there's another option available to her, that she don't have to intentionally take the life for a child. She can kind of let, for lack of a bitter term, nature take its course or whatever. Is a way that you can talk to a mom in front of an abortion center about the issue of eck topic pregnancy and at least to get a second opinion, I mean because the I don't think women understand. You know that there is this and this is why I speak about it, because I know people that have personally gone through a topic. Pregnancy is chose one of the options given to them and they deal with that guilt.

16:17 Well, I would just want people to know that there is another option that's not talked about a whole lot. Right, right. So talk a little bit about that, because I'm sure you you have thought about this, that if there is an exception for abortion for the if the life of the mother is in danger, what is that the really saying about the value of that child? So exactly? Well, I look at any of my other children and which is more important? My life or my child's life? You know, my two year old. You know which life is more important either. There of equal value and I think God's eyes, and that's how we have to look at anything. No matter where that child is located, that doesn't determine value. That child is still valuable no matter where it is growing currently. Yeah, so, any of these exceptions, then it's important, I think, for us a side walk counselors, to speak about that.

17:11 That there is the tacit admission than that that unborn baby is somehow of less value and that's not biblical. Yes, so and it and it fuels. I think what happened in the issue of how to manage a topic pregnancy. So one of the things that this article brought out is, first of all, is it a death sentence? Because I think we all thought it. I did. We thought it was. It was a death sentence for the MOM. No, it was not a death sentence for you. Correct it. The MOM can die. I don't want to say she can't, but there is certainly research in in this article that demonstrates that that is not necessarily the case. That they they and the the research is a little bit like convoluted and and hard for me to summarize easily, but kind of in in summary, one of the studies showed that in at least ninety nine point six of all the ruptured ectopic pregnancies in a study in southern Israel, they did not result in the death of the mom. That's that's a pretty high success rate. And and they I think in a lot of these cases successes more pronounced and likely in the case of expectant management. What you did, and

18:42 now auto transfusion, and I thought you had gone through that, but I guess I was. You know, I did not. Okay, that is and for auto transfusion. For this, why don't understand what it is? Is when the tube has ruptured and blood has flowed into the abdominal cavity, there are actually methods where they can take that blood out and re an inserted into the mother so that she's not bleeding to death. She's having her same blood put back through. Right system. Right. So, so the the idea that it is a death sentence for the mother is is not. scessarely true. It's not true. The researchs and there is and you can go through this all all of you people listening later, later on, because we will post this article. But then the second point that is often made is, okay, it's not necessarily that the mom will die, but what about the baby? Babies don't survive egg topic pregnancy. So why put the mother through risk for the death sentence of the baby? Exactly? How do you read? Can you talk a little bit of I can speak to that.

19:47 Actually, I have a good friend, her name is recy and she was an ectopic pregnancy. Oh, and she was actually she implanted in her mother's Tube and right at the end, right before you know, the tube leads to the to the uterus, and her mother wasn't clear, encourage to Aboord and heavily pressured and she said no, I cannot do it, it is against my conscience, I cannot take the drugs, I cannot do the surgery. Wow, she waited and that baby migrated, which does happen. The placent of migrates during pregnancy. That baby migrated to the uterus and that is now my friend who's, you know, forty something years old and alive and well and has children and, you know, amazing things. God is done because her mom plays her trust in Jesus instead of the medical doctors. That such an awesome story and that and and that's what the research chose, is that the baby has an amazing ability to transplant itself somewhere else. And there there was one case described in this article of a baby that the tube actually rup shirt. The MOM survived, I assume, through transfusion. The baby migrated into the abdomen and grew for nine months and was delivered healthy by Cesarean section, healthy full term child that grew in the abdomen. Yeah, there's been. There is one, at least one recorded case of a baby that grew the full nine months. Well, no, I'm not sure was the full nine months, but to the point of where they could take the baby

21:18 out safely in the tube, right in the tube, and the tube did not rupture. So it kind of begs the question then of if, if the baby can transplant itself, why aren't Doctors Tread? We could make it to the moon. Why aren't we transplanting babies from the tube into the uter and you have to realize it's a culture of death and that life, that little life, is not important, that life is expendable and that's not God's way. Yeah, absolutely, it's one of the reasons why we're having this conversation is because we want this, we want to season this culture with the value of human life, because the more and more we are quote progress as a culture, it seems, the more and more we devalue human lives.

22:11 So we've really not progressed, we've regressed. We've not gone the way that the Lord had wanted us to go in and medical community, as that's the same way I mean in this article, which you're probably going to touch on. There have been cases where doctors successfully, in what nineteen twenty something? Yeah, in nineteen seventeen, a doctor success. Nineteen seventeen, I mean that's a hundred years ago. A doctor successfully transplanted a baby from the Philippian tube to the uterus and that baby was born healthy and fine, I believe, by c section nine months later. And that a hundred years ago.

22:51 Why has and he thought this is the start of the whole new wave of how to deal with what was once a death sentence, they thought was a death sentence. So why didn't that happen? So what is what else is happening in like the nineteen twenties? WHO's coming on the scene, having right and then there's a guy by the name of Adolf Hitler Film, but also you have Margaret Singer exactly on the scene, and you really have this this chipping away of the value of human life. And that's why we, as those who are believers in Jesus, and because we're believers in Jesus, we believe in the value of human life, that we have to uphold this standard, that we can't just be Willy Nilly and understand again that there's differing opinions, and even within the pro life medical community, about a topic pregnancy and how you deal with that. Understand that, but it can't just be a light and kind of glib thing. Oh yeah, actopic pregnancy, then we've got to do to these other methods where we know the baby ultimately has to be intentionally killed. Though, if we're going to hang on to this value of human life and uphold the standard of God, we need to be very careful in the way that we approach any subject that has to do with human life, even getting into the realm of like you know, and not the rabbit trail, but assisted suicide and stuff like that. There's even Christians that are toying with the idea that this might be a moral thing to allow people to be assisted in suicides. Again, it's a chipping away of the value of human life. And whereas you had a doctor one thousand nine hundred and seventeen that was willing to take the risk and to do this procedure and ultimately

24:22 with good results, now you've got doctors now that are not even willing to consider what you're even talking about, which is expectant management, and so really is again, if we're going to uphold this standard, we need to stand firm, and that's why it's helpful to have articles like this and to have podcasts like this. They're encouraging you to do that and so that you can be well informed, because a lot of Christians have no clue about some of the stuff that we're talking about. Right. What did you face when, when you're talking to your doctor's, your family, your friends, your husband and you're saying this is my decision, was there in overwhelming support for a decision to follow that approach, or was there still pressure? You're going to die, Les, we don't want you to die, we'd love you.

25:03 I have such a supportive family and they're all followers of Jesus. So because of that, they supported me and affirming life and not killing my baby. Yeah, so thankfully I had that support, but had I not had that support, I still would have stood my ground and one what I knew I needed to do in God's eyes. So can you imagine? What do you think is happening to the MOM's in feeling out a present a very strong abortion minded culture? Yes, they're feeling a lot of pressure. So, yeah, we need to be there to support them and to educate them and things like this. Does that? Yeah, do we do? We know of pro life doctors who are aware of expectant management and our supportive and we have some locally that are aware of that. And, yeah, who would institute that? Are they hard to find? They are hard to find. Yeah, and you might like, like I said, they never gave me that option. I had to push back on the other two options that I was given in order to learn about expectant management. So if you're ever faced with this, guys, you need to to know that it is an option and you need to press your doctor for that, you know, for that option to be given to you. So at least information, yes, and then, if they don't give it, go to another doctor. Yeah, until you find someone that's one to support you and your conduction's right. I think one of the points here in any especially this, but any of the kind of high risk, difficult situations, and we train our sidewalk counselors in the subwalk missionaries that were bringing into Charlotte to deal with the hard cases, in any of these hard cases, especially again the medical ones or, you know,

26:37 fetal diagnosis, like you know of Down Syndrome, or whatever. We're always encouraging a second opinion. Yes, and with this especially, it's like will get a second opinion because we've had situations where we've had moms that were sent by their ob doctor to the abortion clinic, and that happens a lot, guys. It happens a lot where doctors will send them mom to an abortion clinic because it's a lot cheaper, I mean, let's face it, to go to the hospital and have all that. You know, if even if they're having we've had doctor send a woman who they said was miscarrying to the abortion center rather than they're going to the hospital and have a DNC. She could have a DNC at the abortion clinic here for like four hundred dollars.

27:18 And I remember one young lady she drove all the way from Virginia to come here was told by her doctor that she was miscarrying, her babies already dead. Thank God we got her on the mobile unit and she ended up seeing that her baby was actually alive and she left not having killed her child. Doctors are wrong sometimes, doctors sometimes, I'm not saying all doctors or even most doctors, some, some doctors have a genda's too, and we need to be careful for that. And, you know, opening up the door to a second opinion it like it can't hurt right to be able to at least have a second opinion, because there is guilt associated with having abortions, whether or not our culture says that's true or not, it's a reality.

27:59 Yeah, was your doctor concerned it all about a lawsuit? I think so. I think most doctors are right, because that's immediately why they're going to go for the quick facts. Let's get it done, that we're not facing the risks. I've expectant management, because there are risks involved. If something were to happen right, husband could turn around and see them right. So I always encourage people, if you're serious about this, and your doctors at all hesitant, assure them a lawsuit's not going to happen. Is something where to happen to me right, right, and in this article it talks about that. It is part of the medical I don't know if insurance policy whatever that a doctor, if he has two patients, he is not expected to give equal time and treatment to both patients. He's he's expected to do whatever he needs to do to prioritize to save the patient he's most likely to save if he's going to lose one tree and he is not suit. He is not suitabowl. I don't know what you know liable for maybe the the fact that one patient died because he had to attend to the needs of the other. So doctors are really looking at two patients when they're looking at a a mom with a PC topic pregnancy. But they're not really. Most doctors are not viewing it that way. They're looking at the MOM. is their patient. So what does that say about what they're viewing exactly? The the baby as right and obviously not a person, not a person, which is

29:32 why this is the personhood initiative, because this really does change the kind of the whole scope of of the discussion exactly. So can you talk about some of the strengthening biblical you know, support that that you found during that time? I'm sure it was still a hard it was it was scary days or whatever, and frightening. Yes, it was scary, but I mean you just got to go back to scripture and ask yourself, what would God have me to do? Well, he's very clear. Thou shalt not kill there's no IFANS or butts. So that was the primary foundation for making the decision. IDEA. But some comforting things, you know that I found particularly. Psalm thousand, one hundred and fifteen says my time is in your hands.

30:17 So the Lord has our days numbered and we have to trust in him that, because we are his child and because he aren't, days are already numbered. We're exactly where God would have is to be. Yeah, now, if we step outside of that and we commit murder, we allow someone to take that baby too early, then those days might be numbered less than they should have been. Right. So, why put yourself at risk? The safest place to be is in the middle of God's will. Yeah, so, and you weren't making a thoughtless or foolish decision either. You had scriptural support, but you also had researched. You knew some of what you could suggest to the doctor. Right, you are armed with knowledge, right arm, and that's so key to know, and that's why I like to speak about it. You know to others that they are armed at there ever, based with with something like this. Yeah, and you've had other high risk pregnancies having right right. Yeah, I do have. You've dealt with a lot. So you could speak knowledgeably about this whole exception of the life of a mother. Right, my life is of equal worth in God's eyes as my baby's. So, yeah, I'mborn or born. So yeah, always let the Lord have control of that and he'll guide you. He'll you know, you're safest in the palm of his hand, right there in the middle of his well. So right, Amen. Yeah, we certainly practice what you preach and we should, and I think this conversation will help others to

31:48 continue to just uphold the value of human life, because it can create some some dilemmas in our minds when we start to kind of chip away that value of human life and we start to leave exceptions. I mean, the reality is that Rovy Wade back in one thousand nine hundred and seventy three was based solely on the exceptions, the things that a lot of people that would say even that their pro life would leave his exceptions for abortions. But if it less than one percent, yeah, I'm all the reason for abortion, these these exceptions. Yeah, yeah, so, rape in sastright health of the mother. Right, those are the things that open the floodgates of ultimately nationwide child sacrifice at these abortion centers. And so, as pro lifers, as people that believe, as Christians that believe that human life has value, those exceptions can't be can't be something that we stand on, something that we allow.

32:44 We have to uphold the standard of truth that God is in charge, he is the one that holds life and death in his hands and we as a society don't have a right to take the innocent lives of children, even if there's some extenuating circumstances. Just dealing quickly with the issue of rape, because that is probably the BIS biggest exception that we hear. You know, I was raped, so therefore it's okay. But a child who's WHO's the result of rape is no different than a child who's not. If I were to show you a baby in the womb that was the result of wet rape and a baby in the womb that was not, you would see no difference. And in the same way, a baby that's conceived and ends up and actopic pregnancy situation is no less valuable than a baby that's in the uterus.

33:28 Your location does not determine your value. Yes, again, it's a difficult situation, but we need to approach that situation from a Biblical and God honoring perspective and I believe what you've shared is has been just that. Yeah, can I ask you, just because as he was talking, I was thinking back to your experience and you had just a couple of days and that before you knew that your child had died. But in in the case of a mom whose child is still growing in the tube, what do they tell you, because I'm sure they did tell you, what do you look for? What do you in your expectant management? What sorts of things are you to be aware of to protect yourself and to know when to call the doctor, when it rout, to go to the Yar whatever? Well, you're being pretty closely monitored. So they're taking your HCG levels every other day. If they're dropping, obviously the baby is in the process of dying, if or is already gone. If but if they're climbing, of course the baby's growing.

34:31 That determines a lot of things right there as to what they'll tell you to look for. But bleeding would be a major thing. increase pain and cramping would be something to look forward to. Our look for and then they would instruct you to go to the emergency room at that point. So how much time do you have, say when these symptoms says they're accelerate? It depends at what, you know, how badly the tube has ruptured, because sometimes I can just be a little nick you know in the in the tube, or it can really, you know, be much more serious. Get, you know, some kind of a blood vessel or whatever, and that can be much more serious. So it kind of it's it really depends. Some ruptures are worse than others. Yeah, yeah, do they hospitalized mom? Sometimes they do keep them in the hospital for that expected. Yes, spent time? Yes, yes, especially if the baby's bigger. So yeah, before we wrap this up, and you may may or may not be able to share, but if you can, please share, maybe without giving specifics, a situation you've encountered with the mom that has head a nick topic pregnancy at the abortion center or somehow you were connected with that person and how you kind of talk them through and walk them through that that situation. Well, I'm always quick to point out, you know, if your doctor is told you you have a Tu bulleck topic pregnancy and you're coming to an ambulatory surgical center for an abortion. What are they going what procedure are they going to do on you and there? Normally they're telling me that they're coming for a surgical abortion. Well, that just sends up a bunch of red flags

36:05 because of the babies outside of the uterus. You can't do a surgical abortion. Now if they're telling them to go there for a medical abortion, even that has some really iffy things because you're going home to labor and deliver that baby on your own. And so I'm pointing out these these cracks in their treatment plan to where that mom could end up harmed anyway. Yeah, doing the medical abortion or going through with a surgical abortion where that baby still growing in that tube and didn't you didn't solve anything they thought they were going to solve. So you really got to dig deep and see what they've been told where the location of the baby is, which is why it's always good to get a second opinion. Yeah, to make sure that baby is where they said it was. And then I just remind them that it's not within our control, or it's not been given to us by God to call whether or not this baby should be executed, and we are only supposed to support life and we need to find someone who's going to back us up, you know, and and and a line who has the treatment plan that aligns with God's.

37:06 So I'm always just quick to get them into a second opinion to a good doctor who's going to determine what's best for them and what's best for that baby. Yeah, I mean it's certainly a situation where. I mean again, I've encountered these situations and it's never if it's a real situation, because sometimes I've been lied to. You. You know, you have to Vicky, I'm sure you have to. or now it's thinking old she was talking with her questions to them. I'm sure you've uncovered people that right. He thought this is just another excuse. Yeah, really, trying to make you feel bad for talking to them about going into the abortion center. But in the situations where I've encountered, and they've been very few and far between, where it's been legit and it's been a genuine situation, it's never that they're coming to me and talking to me and some proud and arrogant way they're already broken. Yeah, right, there's already a heaviness about them and I make sure just be very intentional with my language. I'm not coming across as condemning or as judge or whatever we want to identify. And again, we train folks in all of these hard cases to have compassion, to identify with their struggle and all of that. But it really gets to the point where, when I'm talking to a mom going into an abortion center, a dad whose girlfriend or wife's going into the abortion center, is that you're going to a place of darkness, you're going into a place of death. Yeah, I know you probably wanted to keep this baby. That's often time the case and these situations I've encountered. And so you want to keep this child and you're broken hearted because you're not going to be able to. You don't think that you're going to be able to. You're going into a place full of people

38:38 that don't want to keep their children. You're subjecting yourself to doctors. I mean, wow, if you go through the track record or some of these doctors. A matter of fact, one of the doctors here at the latrobe abortion center is actually responsible for the death of a woman. I don't know if you knew this, but he actually a woman came to his clinic and had a necktopic pregnancy. This is like two thousand and six and he gave her the abortion pill and then she came back because she was still pregnant. The abortion pill apparently didn't work and so he gave a surgical abortion to an empty uterus. He didn't do his due diligence to find out that she had a necktopic pregnancy. Well, because the abortion peop will never work on on an neck topic pregnancy. It's a different pill, correct somewhat. Yeah, so she ultimately, as far as the little bit of Digg in that we've done, her flipping to ruptured and she died. She bled to death.

39:30 So you don't want abortionists, people, they get paid to kill people's children, to oversee your ectopic pregnancy. And if that's a genuine thing that you're dealing with or that a mom that as a sidewalk counselor that you're ministering to, then she needs to go to a real doctor, she needs to be overseen by a hospital or by a real doctor, not an abortion clinic, not an abortionist. And I will say if you've been referred to an abortion clinic by your doctor, because they tell you that that pregnancy is out of the uterus. Isn't a topic pregnancy. That should send up some warning flags to you will because, yes, no good doctor is going to do that in the case, I'm an ectopic pregnancy. Yes, yeah, exactly, sadly, I mean, the abortion center is probably the cheapest place for them to go and have that baby removed, right, as opposed to the hide it can't even be done in a topic circumstances. Right, right, kind of right. You gotta think. Why do they want me? Yeah, yeah, only if I guess, they they would refer. Only if I'm assuming on as a really terrible doctor. They are. Are they are referring?

40:37 Correct me if I'm wrong. If the baby is so small, so young, that the medication can still, mean safely taken, is that might be yes, okay, yes, although you should still be under the care of a Doctor Shul later the method tracks say is given, and I don't even think they think that's the drug they use there anyway. So, yeah, yeah, all right. Well, we hope we gave you guys some information to chew want to think about, to pray about, and we hope you guys will dig into this article that we're going to post. It's called Ectopic personhood and it's from the personhood initiative. So if for some reason you guys don't see it in the show notes of this podcast, maybe your access in this podcast on some other platform than apple podcasts. Certainly you can just google search it and you'll find it. Share this podcast with folks that you know. Maybe it'll be a blessing to someone and reach out to us.

41:31 You can reach out to me d parks at cities for lifecom. You reach out to her VCASI ORG at cities for lifecom. We'd love to hear from you guys. We'd love to hear some suggestions of topics that we can cover and we'd love to hear what you guys think about the podcast. Maybe some things we can improve. And just before wrap it up, I want to thank you again, Lisa, for coming. Can I appreciate you taking time away from your family to come and share and again, just ended off, we're not medical professionals, so we're not pretending to be. We don't play medical professionals on TV. This is not a medical professional podcast, but it is a gospel center pro life podcast and so we hope it was a blessing, you guess, and so until next time, God bless give me our love for love, give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you