Interview with a High Risk Doctor

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me. Lord, Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. This episode we're going to talk with the retired Doctor Edith, who used to deal with high risk mothers in her practice. She's going to give us some tips and wisdom will how to speak with high risk mothers at the abortion center. Stay tuned. I felt show Passish, touch your use me. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys tuning in and we appreciate, as always, if you guys would share this podcast and even reach out to us. We'll share our contact info at the end of this podcast with ideas for other episodes.

0:50 We just want to be a blessing to you guys that are listening. We want to encourage you to stand for life. Will encourage you to stand for life at the abortion centers, especially in your city. It's a difficult ministry, but it's a necessary ministry and lives are saved. We just came from the abortion center, yeah, with some pretty difficult opposition today. It was a rough day, yeah, and we often encounter opposition for Poe and pro abortion people and that's to be expected. But five babies were safe. Five babies to went went for an ultrasound and five five babies. I again when for an ultrasound on one on board our help pregnancy center mobile ultra sound, your net. Yeah, it was awesome. Yeah, awesome, pretty amazing what the Lord can do in spite of what the enemy tries to do.

1:32 That's right. So we would encourage you guys that are listening to go out to be a faithful witness out there on the sidewalks. Would encourage you guys to go to our sidewalks for life website to get equipped and even reach out and we can train you guys to become a sidewalk missionary, kind of like what we talked about a couple of months ago, becoming a sidewalk missionary, a regular presence and raising up an army of people in your city to be out there at the abortion centers. So we encourage you guys with that. Again, we'll share our contact info at the end of this podcast to give you guys an opportunity to reach out to us. But we want to jump into our subject and we have on zoom, so this is a zoom call that we're doing. So if you hear any lag or any kind of weird noises, it's either zoom or is the fact that we're recording on Vicki's back porch. So if you hear a gnawing sound, that's a that's probably a squirrel chewing a nut not far from where we are. If you hear sirens, we're in Charlotte and crime is pretty pretty tough around these parts.

2:25 Now. Vicki lives in a pretty good neighborhood, but we're hearing some sirens earlier. So if you hear some stuff you don't normally hear because we're recording in a abnormal location because we're having some work done on our office to expand things. Of God's doing a lot. But let's jump into our subject and let's introduce our guest. Yeah, so she edith is is one of our volunteers and she just has such a wonderful background that is so useful in our work on the sidewalk. So I'm going to introduce edith and and maybe edith, you could just tell us about yourself, who you are, give us a little of your background, your testimony and and just whatever you feel it in Justin way of introduction. People ought to know about you. Okay.

3:12 Well, thank you so much for having me, Vicky and Daniel, and it's just to be a such a blessing to be a part of this team. I joined as a volunteer back in the fall and it has been an incredible blessing and Vicky and Daniel asked me to share with you some of my background and interest in the ministry, and so I'll just jump in. I grew up in a Christian home and as a teenager, went forward at a billy Graham Crusade to express publicly my faith in Jesus Christ. My faith was solidisipied through Bible Study and in my young adult years I felt called as a teenager to go into the practice of medicine and specifically to go on the foreign mission field. Our Church had a a mission clinic in Mexico and I made very specific plans to go that way. But God had other plans because as I finished medical school that clinic closed and I did meet my husband and medical school. He and I did our medical training in Ohio and then in Boston and then we were called to Charlotte to work in in medicine here in Charlotte in medical school because I was training during a time in which there was not

4:44 abortion, was not legalized until toward the end of my medical training. There was not really an issue related to being pro life or pro choice, and though I would consider myself pro life, I did not have an issue in terms of getting a job or that sort of thing. So there was really no no issue there. Some of those things did come later in my career, but in my training I began to take care of high risk pregnancies because my specialty was in internal medicine and then subspecializing in into chronology and diabetes, and specifically my research and my fellowship was in diabetes. And when I came to Charlotte I began to develop practice in the high risk pregnancy area and worked in the academic area in Atrium health with caring for women with diabetes and pregnancy, and we took care of over a thousand women annually in that area, and so I began to realize that that was going to be a field in which God was going to use me to stand for life, because the majority of people I was specialist, that I was working with were much more liberal, more pro choice. That's not to say that there aren't specialists who are very prolife, but most of the people I was working with were pro choice, and so it was God put me there in to stand in the gap.

6:17 Okay, and just just to mention this. So you were a physician that worked with high risk MOMS and certainly we have encountered as one of the frequently stated reasons why people are there at the abortion center to a board is because either the mother is high risk, sometimes a medical issue because of that with the baby, but quite frequently we hear that the mother will die if they don't kill the baby. And so you, you ended up in a position where you were actually than counseling women to whether that was true or not right, whether they their high risk situation was one that was a death sentence if they did not abort their child or not. Is that correct? Correct, and I do want to reiterate that in a high risk pregnancy you have those two classifications. You have the high risk mother, you have the high risk maternal condition and then you have a high risk condition for the baby, right in which there are dangers there. And the truth of the matter is that there are very, very rare circumstances in which a pregnancy would present itself as being, you know, a risk of death to the mother. So I think that, in terms of speaking with women, I think that something

7:49 that could be very, very strongly stated, even by non medical person, to that to to the abortion minded woman, that it is a very rare circumstance in when which a woman's life is in danger to carry a pregnancy. Now, did you find that other doctors, when they would have high risk MOMS, would just kind of automatically recommend abortion as the easier of the options in front of them? I think that's the case in my in my opinion, that is generally the case. They usually rationalize that in those conditions in which women had medical conditions that would make for a very complicated pregnancy, right other words, it would take more work, more resources, etc. To to continue the pregnancy and complete the pregnancy. The option for abortion was pressed upon, not only presented but pressed. Oh Really? Yes, so there was some because they're the doctor. The woman doesn't know. So there was almost, I don't want to use quite the word coercion, but something close to that, that that was the safest route. Because I'm yes, there was a continuum of that, but I would say that in it. My experience there was everything from the high risk doctor presenting it as an option but

9:22 being a little more forceful to present that as an option because, whether you're aware of it or not, any woman who comes in pregnant is presented that as an option these days unless the is prolife. So that that is the that that's a sad statement. Do you you think edith just as far as as almost like a winend doubt, throw it out sort of mentality for doctors? Do you think that is because of they're just afraid of be ensued, or what do you think is the root of that? I really do not think that suit is at the bottom of it. I've never heard one of the high rist doctors say they were afraid of being sued. It generally just in many cases where women are seemingly pressured by the HIGHRIST team to abort, it's because they just feel like it's going to be such a burden on the woman, her family, resources, etc. And the the issue for the poor woman is that this is just an ongoing pressure that she feels yeah to an extreme sometimes, and so I've even had situations where I've had to say to the team the patient has told you she wants to continue the pregnancy.

10:46 She really doesn't want to hear one more offering for for termination of the pregnancy killing of the baby. Wow, so in your work you're actually counseling the women. You are a pro life doctor in a see of pro choice people, or, if not pro choice, kind of wanting an abortion, at least as what they see these here route. How would you counsel those women? How would you help them in highrist situations, to choose life? So what I usually do is, and we have a set up, most of these women are die have diabetes. So in my situation it's generally the woman has gotten pregnant in her diabetes is under poor control and she has a baby with a birth defect or she herself has a serious complication of diabetes. And interestingly enough there have been a couple of occasions where in which the highers team has gone in and not told me that the woman is abortion minded. She might have mentioned this to the purse and so I have to keep my ear to the ground. So I will go in and speak to them about their diabetes and then, if I know that there's some mention of abortion, that there has been some talk with counseling, with the patient. You know, I will try to ascertain where she is spiritually, because if she's a believer, we can go right to the the truth of the matter. If she's

12:20 not a believer, then I mean it's the same, same story, except that, again, I guess, I have a more of an evangelistic conversation with her and it's similar to what we have at the abortion facility. It's that you know God loves her and has a plan for her and her baby and that this baby already has a beating heart and you know, ninety five percent of the cases, by the time she gets to me and that I can help her get through this pregnancy, that it will be difficult, it will be demanding, but that we will get her through it. So do you introduce the idea of God? Because my understanding, at least in some settings, as you absolutely are not allowed to do that, but we're would you do it anyway? Well, I would do it anyway. Okay, good for you. I've never been forbidden to talk about God to a patient.

13:13 Now I've been retired for a year. I don't know whether that's change, but I've always had free rain to talk about my faith that with a patient. So you know, it's maybe like I've never asked, I've just I've just spoken my faith with patients. I mean that's why I went into medicine. So you know, that's that's awesome. And have you have you had a fairly good success with talking to high risk MOMS who maybe we're thinking abortion, changing their minds? Yes, yes, and I don't know that they really change their minds because I think a lot of times the pain, the the high rest team would go in and they were not necessarily abortion minded coming in and so this would be presented to them as an option. But then when I would go in and say look, we can, we can get through this together. This is not a life threatening situation. It's a difficult situation, it's going to be a hard situation. And the other thing with regard to the baby is that in most cases, with the high risk situations that I was involved with, is in most of those cases the the defects were fatal or fixable. That was sort of mine mantra and therefore we could let God take care of that situation for the baby as it was developing.

14:46 I see so. So, in other words, let nature take its course. The baby may may die, the baby may not die, but but let's leave that up to God rather than being on your conscience and an abortion exactly. But that was there. I will tell you that that meets with opposition with some physicians. And why is that? Because they don't they think it's a poor use of resources that to allow a woman who look an example, if a baby is born without kidneys, then it's unlikely that that baby can survive. Fortunately, I have never had a situation which a physician refused to take care of of a baby who didn't have the kidneys, and those babies usually dine the third trimester. But I did have a woman, let me give one other more common example, whose brain development was not good.

15:43 She wanted to give that baby the opportunity to live for as long as the baby God chose to give the baby life and her obstetrician refused to take care of her. Oh my goodness, and she was a nurse, so it was it was a very sad situation. So just to say that, unfortunately we have people in the medical community who are who are rationalizing that this is not a good use of resources. And I must say that I can help but think that that's going to ramp up further. Shure and underline that thought is that the baby is not a value or is of lesser value that, or they wouldn't make that determination. Exactly right. Yeah, well, as you know, edith, we encounter situations like this. Is while we're doing this podcast, and you already mentioned earlier. At the abortion centers we have conversations. Now the majority of conversations that we have in the more majority, vast majority, of women coming to an abortion center are not coming because of complications like this, but we do encounter it. So how would you, how would you recommend, as sidewalk counselors, your sidewall counsel yourself?

16:52 We appreciate you volunteering in the capacity that you do, since been a blessing to us. But how would you recommend that we push back against some of the pro abortion rhetoric from the doctors, knowing that these doctors are in a position of authority. These women see them as an authority, and in rightly so. They've gone to medical school and all of that. But how do we how do we set things right and say this doctor is not actually the final say that God is the final say. How do you recommend we handle those conversations? I think in the general because, again what you've said is exactly right. You've got a counselor on the sidewalk who, unless that counselor would be a physician, does not carry the authority that a woman's physician would carry. But I think that person, a counselor on the sidewalk, can say to the woman with great respect that abortion for medical purposes because the life of the mother is in danger, are the life of the baby is in danger, is quite rare, particularly the life of the mother. As I as as I might say to you, my husband was as a cancer specialist.

18:14 I dealt in high risk go be in there probably been only two to three cases in which continuing the pregnancy. So we're talking about eighty years of practice between the two of us. Two are three, two or three situations in which continuing the pregnancy there was a high risk that the mother would die. So I think the sidewalk counselor can say number one, that situation is very rare. Would you be willing to talk to another physician about what this what your situation is, and get a second opinion? And, as I've said to to you two, Jim and I would like to serve as that second opinion and if we don't know the answer, we know who to go to to get the answer. So that's what I hope that we can develop, because it's a difficult spot for the for the sidewalk counselor to be in.

19:18 Yeah, it is. Let me ask you, because I we often do our for that, we train our councilors to offer that and frequently the response I will here is, well, it is my high risk doctor that recommended I come here. How can we counter that? Were from what you've just said, it sounds like there's a lot of high resk doctors out there who might be counseling abortion. So what would be a good way to respond to that statement? Well, in Charlotte, in our local community, again, my husband are I, with our both being physicians and in taking care of highers patients in the OB world, we could pick up the phone and call the we know all the high risk doctors in town, or we at least have standing with them, so we could call if that part, if the woman were willing to give us the name of the doctor, we could call them you know, we couldn't do that in another city, but I'm just not sure how else other than to urge them to get a second opinion from another high risk doctor. Right, okay, that's good. That's great.

20:27 So so you encounter probably, like Daniel said, we really don't see this is not a the bulk of abortions that we see, but we do hear it and I'll tell you some of the things that we have heard include a topic pregnancy, hyper emesis, gravidium, I don't know if I'm saying that correct where they just can't stop throwing up, basically, or maybe the baby already dead. Can can you address those issues, because they I think those are probably the most common I think I've seen. I sometimes the MOM sill say they have high blood pressure. Now, is that ever a an issue? That is killed the baby is the only solution? Well, let me say that the one case in which I felt that the life of the mother was in danger was a woman who developed early high blood pressure of pregnancy superimposed upon already underlying high blood pressure in in a week in which the baby could not survive even in the high risk unit outside the mother and the mother was bleeding from the platelets. Because of that the treatment was delivery of the baby. So the baby was delivered. Couldn't so that is such a rare situation. Usually blood pressure can be controlled at talkt a topic. Pregnancies are

22:00 usually emergency situations. So I find it very unusual that a woman would be sent to an abortion clinic for an ectopic pregnancy. Right, hyper EMMESSIS GRAVIDERREM is no indication for abortion. That's an elective abortion. As far as for my opinion, that's a woman who has decided that she can't deal with this and so, as a sidewalk counselor, I would urge her, if her obstetrician has recommended this, that she find another obstetrician and get help to get her through the hyper emesis because again, I've taken women through very difficult hyporemesis where there were underlying gastric issues with this, with the pregnancy superimposing itself on that, and we got the women through it. There's there's no indication in that. So again it's hard if the if the if the obstetrician has referred the patient for the sidewalk counselor to say that. So again that idea of delaying long enough, and usually hyperremesis occurs in the first trimester up to about fifteen weeks. Well, pregnancy abortion, as you all know, is legal up to twenty weeks in North Carolina, and so she can, you know, she can wait until we could try to find help for her so that

23:32 she wouldn't have to abort the pregnancy. Right. And the other what was the other condition? That you the baby already dead is one that we do here. A live which to me is is so tragic, because their doctors send them to the abortion center for a DNC because it's less expensive than the hospital. And that is true, but I just can't imagine the pain, the emotional pain, of wanting a child that has died and then sitting in a room with women who are electing to to kill their child. So maybe you could address that. What what are some options we can recommend for those MOMS, assuming they're not lying. Sometimes they are lying. Well, I actually didn't realize that women were being referred to the abortion clinic with a dead baby. That that's very unusual, because my practice was made up primarily of of the low income women in Charlotte. I mean we took care of all comers. We took care of everyone. But if a woman presented to the emergency room or if we found in the clinic, and these are women who have no insurance, self pay, they aren't citizens of this country, we sent them to the emergency room and they would not be sent to an abortion clinic, they would be put in the hospital in hat undergo a DNC.

24:57 So I I don't I'm I think they're all lying to us. Then I don't know, Vicky, I know that we've, I mean I've encountered a few situations and I know you have act, even with some follow up with the dead in particular, where I knew they were telling the tree they were. Yeah, and I think it is. That is you of cost. The abortion center will do a DNC for less than four hundred dollars in early pregnancy, and the hospital charges, I would say, four to FIVEZERO dollars. So I think that's the difference. And still yet, though, at least from my perspective, I want to still encourage them. I mean no, no doctor will, almost no doctor aspires to be an abortionist. That's and so going into an abortion clinic with a doctor who's quite likely like the local doctors here, Dr Ron Vermonti and Susan Alberta. They're not good doctors and I wouldn't, I wouldn't, put my dog in their care. So that's one of the things that I use as an encouragement to get them away from the abortion center. Well, I think that's I think that's wise.

26:03 Counsel. Like I say, I don't have any experience with it and the women that that I have seen who have had that horrible experience have been sent to the emergency room. Now maybe in you know, another healthcare setting, maybe they do send them to the abortion clinic. But, as I said, that's that's not something that I've had an experience with. But we need to seek an alternative to give these women yes, ortible. I know locally, and Edith, maybe you can speak to this, since you have connections here in Charlotte. We will refer them to the low cost MED clinic. Is that what it is, Vicki, with the physician's Residence Clinic? Yeah, here in Charlotte and and and in fact, that that leads to one of our questions with edith, which is just really beautiful at that she has offered she has a vision for exactly this issue. That I think is great and that maybe would be possible in any city where you're seeking to promote life as opposed to abortion for MOMS of high res. So, but I don't mean jump jump into that, edith. What is that vision of what you're hoping to do, at least here in Charlotte, with regard to the other clinics? That's right, that's right. So the reason this came to my mind as we were, as we are, working in counseling with women at the abortion facilities, particularly at plan parent, who had here in Charlotte, a number of women, as Daniel and Vicky no, will say, well, I'm not going here for an abortion, and so I when I've been

27:37 there, I've said, well, there are other places that you can go, and I'll mention the mentions of the residence clinic, which is where I worked for years with with the pregnant diabetics there, and they will say, which is probably true, well, I can't get an appointment for three months. So we we I am trying and have we're working on a list of other clinics where physicians work in the community, that are low cost and that do sliding scale. Self Pay Medicaid, those types of coverages that low income home people have, as well as insurance. They'll take general insurance. So I think what we can do is, if we have a list available to give these women, we can encourage them not to go into the facility at all and certainly if they say well, as they do say, well, it took me a month to get disappointment and I really need to go in here, I'll I say to them, when I've written down the names of these clinics, I've said, well, you know, really, the next time you need to get this refilled, why don't you make an appointment at this clinic and not go to a clinic where they do abortions? And because obviously they're establishing care at planned parenthood with these non abortive care, with the not abortive care, and then when they get pregnant, look where they're going

29:10 to go. Yeah, and I just think we need to steer the pat the patients away from from planned parenthood for doing anything. Yeah, absolutely, I agree with that. Yeah, you also talked about that. You are hoping to find coalition of high risk doctors that are pro life that would be willing to consult with the women, as you have offered, for free, Pro Bono at least just for initial consultation to kind of steer them away from that crisis moment at the abortion center. Correct what what I'm hope being, and I have a I can't say that it's going to happen, but I'm praying and hoping that we can recruit a group of high risk physicians and already have to on board, and one of those, who doesn't live here in Charlotte, has a lot of connections actually across the country and he would know who might be willing to be, you know, maybe on call or be willing to, you know, take a you know a week or a month to to to have that call in to talk with either the counselor or talk with directly with the patient and then maybe help them have hook up with someone in their city. So that's in the very, obviously very early stages of development, but I'm excited to think that we might be able to do that,

30:40 that that sounds great and that that can be something that our national missionaries could start working on themselves as pulling together a list like that, because that would be, I think, so helpful since, as you indicated, we as counselors are not going to have a whole lot of pull on the mom from a medical standpoint, but a doctor might, I might be able to convince them to make a choice for life. Well, I think every barrier we can remove from them is is just moving them a step away from the door of the abortion facility. That yeah, that's that one charge I would give. Be as well informed as you possibly can be. Be well, as well informed as you possibly can be about fetal development, about high risk pregnancies, so that you can have an answer. You know, the Bible tells us we should have an answer for the hope that lies within us.

31:33 We should be ready to give an answer and we should. We should be ready to give a Biblical and a Gospel Answer for questions about the Lord. But I think also we should be ready to give as best we can and answer for some of these high risk situations or just even some of the lies that are put out there that, like you know, such and such situation merits and abortion. If we can answer back and even answer back with some resources, with some websites, with some hey, you know statistically this. You know. If you can answer back with some statistics. That's helpful because what we're up against, especially when we're dealing with a high risk mom, or at least a mom who's been told that she's at high risk, is we're up against speaking against an authority like her doctor, her obie doctor, right, and of course I don't think it's very helpful to directly to say your doctor is wrong, your doctor stupid. That's not going to be helpful at all because she, whether we do or not, she views that doctor as an authority. But if we can speak in an informed and authoritative way, I think that will be helpful to push back some of that kind of pro abortion mentality. Would you agree with that? I agree completely, and especially in this subset of of a of women, because a number of them may not have been abortion minded, but they were, they were encouraged to have the abortion because of these issues, maternal are baby related issues, and so if we can, if we can intervene and give them better information to

33:07 make their decision on, then those are women that that may be more inclined to change their minds. Yeah, and so I agree completely and I agree with and you know, again, I want to continually inform myself. I'm not an obstetrician. I'm an Indo chronologist, but I want to, you know, continually research and I look to the people who are the high risk ob doctors to inform me. I think it's good for like, if I can find articles that have good and uptodate statistics. Daniel, your your information about, you know, development for the orientation for the sidewalk counselors. That's all very good. I would recommend that sidewalk counselors have a little notebook that they have those statistics written down so that they can they'll have them at their fingertips on the sidewalk because in the you know, you can get anxious while you're there and if you if you have them at your fingertips, though, you can you can quote them. So I think all those things are helpful.

34:17 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, from we have that we can give to them with, you know, with authority based on on the science of the issues, the the better decision. You know, as I say, I think the farther we can remove them from the door. Yeah, yeah, absolutely so recently it's been in the past maybe six months or so that you've come out to the sidewalk. Is that right? Maybe a little more than that right now. It was in, I think September. Okay, yeah, so just to kind of wrap this thing up, I want people to get an understanding from a physician's perspective what brought you out on the sidewalk and then just any other encouragement that you can give to people who are thinking about going to the sidewalk or who are already out there. Well, I think that abortion is the holocaust of this country and it's the hidden Holocaust and it has just been such it's the stain upon our country and upon our world and God's maneuvered me into caring for high risk pregnancies, in promoting life and allowing me to do that in my career and then part time working with what was

35:52 then pregnancy care center here, human coalition, and then I always had the desire to, once I retired, to continue that through working with a pro life organization and I learned about cities for life and love life and I felt like that was where God wanted me to be. I prayed about it and he's allowed me to be there and I pray that our church will take a more active role of it is the organization and the involvement there has allowed me a very evengel has allowed me to be more evangelistic in my daytoday life, because when people ask me what I'm doing in retirement, it's so wonderful to be able to say that I'd become involved in it. And I will say sometimes I get pushed back and there's not as much there's sometimes it's not so positive. But that's fine because again, because love life is at its base, a missionary organization who wants to bring mothers in their babies to a knowledge of the Gospel. That's just in keeping with my desire from the time I came to faith to be a missionary. So I would just encourage all the people on the sidewalk as missionaries, to be able to do that same thing.

37:20 It's not just the three hours or four hours Dur on the sidewalk, it's what you can do in your table conversation with friends, Co workers, etc. That you can speak out and educate people about abortion and in the evils of it. And what what's going on on the sidewalk and what's what this what what God is accomplishing through love life? Yeah, Amen, Hey, man edith, you've been such a blast scene. We have so enjoyed having you out there and I've I've seen you be able to use your medical knowledge to really turn people at least to be thinking that maybe this is not what they should be considering. So we just want to thank you so much.

38:04 Yeah, yeah, well, thank you. It's just been a huge blessing for me and I can't thank you enough and I thank God and I look forward to to learning from from both of you and from colleagues as we close these places down. Yeah, Amen. Well, again, we appreciate edith, appreciate you coming on and we appreciate those who are listening. Again, as we started out, we want you to share this podcast. Maybe it can be an encouragement to someone else. Maybe we'll get some some physicians that listen to this podcast and get a burden to come in line with edith and her husband's vision for getting some pro life doctors. Nash Le Rallied to be a resource for MOMS that feel like abortion is an option for them, and so share this podcast. Guys. The further it goes out, the more of those resources can be. There's connections can be made, and also reach out to me, Daniel at love life dot org, or reach out to Vicky, Vicky at Love Life Dot Org, and just give us some suggestions of topics we can cover. Maybe you guys have a topic you'd like for us to bring edith back on for that she can speak from a physician's perspective. I'm sure she'd be willing to come back on and share her perspective.

39:12 But we just again want to encourage you guys to be out there on the sidewalks, to be a gospel presence, out there offering help and hope in the name of Jesus and with that will in this thing. So until next time, God bless give for love, give me our love, for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you