Helping Pregnant Women Who Are Victims of Domestic Abuse

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord, I am yours. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. This episode we talk about how to help a mother who's in a domestic abuse situation get out of that circumstance. Join us as we look at this biblically and practically. Lord, I felt show passish touch your welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you, guys, joining us and we're going to jump right into our subject today and it's a subject that we've just recently.

0:45 It's not that we've recently faced it, but it's just we've recently honed in on this subject right, and it has to do, of course, with sidewalk counseling. It has to do with what we call hard cases. So it's beyond dealing with a mom in you know, all of them. To these mothers, of course our hard cases, but to us there's some like next level situations that we deal with right, like the health of the mother is at risk, the baby has some kind of fetal abnormality, and then this situation, which is domestic abuse and domestic violence. It's another one of those hard cases. We do trainings here in Charlotte we train our sidewalk counselors and we sort of start with service level stuff, foundational stuff, and then we do a second training and that's what we're really focus on the hard cases and we really haven't focused on this particular hard case. But I think with some of the information that we've gotten now in some of the interactions that we had recently with MOMS coming to the abortion center, we understand we need to focus in on this. This is a this is a big issue. Some of the statistics you've dug up really do help us understand how big of an issue this really is right and so I want you to go ahead and jump in with some of the statistics, some of the situations. Okay, but first why are we covering this? You've dealt recently with some women that have had this. Yeah, I've had three cases in the past few days of domestic violence where I knew it was domestic violence. They told me. I've probably had many, many cases in the past and never knew. It's a deep, dark secret, very difficult for the women to leave the situation.

2:13 Fear is overwhelming and it the woman I talked to today said that the guy tried to shoot her. Well, so, I mean it's it's a very serious issue and we need to know how to deal with it because, I will be very honest, some of the strategies I've used in the past actually probably put those women in increased danger and I had no idea. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm sure that there are other people who have not really studied domestic violence, but they're, like me, trained in dealing with abortion, determined women, but not with a really great understanding of the mindset and what's involved in an in domestic violence and in how to best up those women out of a domestic violent situation. Sure. So this was really valuable, I think, for me in learning, looking over the research and finding out some facts about domestic violence and then working through some strategies and that we could impart to other sidewalk cancers. Yeah, so we've done in the past.

3:23 I believe we did a podcast about it, but I know we have an article out on the sidewalks for life website dealing with hardcases in the situation of rape, and you actually did a training video about that. That's on the sidewalks for life. So yes, we're also going to put an article about this out on the sidewalk for life website to help equip you who are out there on the sidewalk to deal with these hard cases. So hopefully, as we dive into this podcast, you'll be able to get this information, you'll be able to apply it out there on the sidewalk or maybe if you're working in a pregnancy center. I'm sure in pregnancy centers I know they're encountering these sort of situations. So how do we deal with these situations? What are some of the statistics that helps us to know the numbers in order to know the magnitude of the problem so that we can understand this is a problem we need to address right. So you've written an article. We're going to throw it out on the sidewalks for life websites. You guys can access that.

4:08 But stick with us in this podcast because there's going to be some important principles, some stuff that I've learned, some stuff that you've learned, thanky, yeah, and some stuff that hopefully we can teach you guys. Yeah, to show you the enormity of the problem. Some of the studies indicate that more than a third of women who aboard or in a domestic abuse situation. That's a pretty stackering number. It is. When you told me that statistic I was pretty amazed that this is a massive problem. Yeah, and I know that, even though it's not a situation that I've been cued in on, like, probably more and more, as I'm paying attention to some of the things that you're sharing, I'm going to recognize some of these markers more and more right and I'm going to see it's like this problem going on under the surface and when you scratch that surface you begin to see, Oh wow, that's right, and it's not just an academic understanding that Oh good, now we know how many people, like the nineteen are here are domestic abuse, but it's it will change how we interact. It should based on, I think, based Apace time. Well, I discovered anyway, and what the research shows, that they're some things that that we can do that are very counterproductive to that woman's safety and to trying to help that relationship to become a healthy relationship. Yeah, and I think also these situations where we're talking about. You know, we did a podcast months and months and months ago about women that come to abortion clinics are not victims, right, and that's true. They're not victims. That baby is the victim. But there

5:41 are situations in which women are victims of other circumstances. It's right. We need to understand that. We need to meet them where they're at. Never justifying abortion. Abortion is never the solution to domestic abuse, domestic violence, to sex trafficking. Yes, we'll do a podcast, hopefully not too long, a podcast about that because those situations, just like domestic abuse domestic violence situations, a lot of times the abuse are us as abortion as a coverup. Same thing with sex trafficking, right, the trafficker uses abortion as a cover up and that's been well documented. Ye, so we'll touch on that here. But the point of this is that if we are cued into these situations, their realities, there are women that are going into that abortion center that may not outwardly appear to be victims of domestic abuse and domestic violence.

6:28 There are many that are. In the statistic that you're going to share kind of helps that or some of these statistics, and that one third statistic, one third of women that are having abortions, yeah, are in these situations. Is a staggering statistic. Yes, you from what the statistics tell us, it's one third of every of all women will have an abortion right. So if you think about that, one third of one third. So I mean staggering number of people that are affected by domestic violence and domestic abuse and we need to understand that. These are some of these women were encountering out the abortion center are in these situations and we need to understand that. So hop into some more of what you get there. So okay, what we'll go right into some of these statistics. And all right, there's no doubt that the issue of abortion and domestic violence are linked. Yeah, you know, a third of the women are involved in domestic violence. So approximately five percent of US women have had an intimate partner who tried to force sexual activity that would result in an unwanted pregnancy on them in their lifetime. Estimates of domestic violence and abortion patients range from twelve to thirty five percent, and that includes sexual, psych psychological and physical abuse. The results that indicate a positive relationship between physical violence and the number of abortions that a woman has had.

7:54 In other words, the the more abortions a single woman has had, the more likely and the increased incidence there is of domestic abuse, and we see that all the time out of the abortion center, that women have had multiple abortions. So it's actually rare to come across someone who's only had one. Yeah, honestly, so that, given what this research is saying, there's a pretty good likelihood you see a woman who's had eight abortions, she could be that's that's something to keep your eye open. This could be someone who is a victim of domestic abuse. Women seeking an abortion are more likely, up to three times more likely, to have experienced domestic abuse than women who continue with their pregnancies. Okay, so just by the very fact that they're they're having an abortion, that tells you right away the likelihood of abuse is pretty high in in these women. Let's see here. This is interesting.

8:58 Unlike pregnant women, who are going to be receiving Prenato Care, you know, twice a month, sometimes even more, with with a doctor, so they're seeing a medical professional on a regular basis and so there's accountability. They have that opportunity to talk to the doctor and say hey, the doctor will pick up on clues. Yeah, and can maybe exposed sexual abuse, but in a woman who has an abortion, that's not true. Yeah, she is not having that regular medical visit by someone who might recognize the signs, and so the sexual abuse goes on and on and on. Yeah, and that goes back to that. You know, these two things tied together, just like sex trafficking and abortion. Domestic of abuse and domestic violence tied together with abortion in that the abusers are using abortion as a cover up. Is that same dynamic? Abortions not a solution to a problem? Yeah, it's in addition to the current problem that's going on. What I found in the lady that I spoke with a couple of days ago, and this is true of many, many victims of domestic abuse, they are offering mirroring what they saw growing up. Yeah, they're not only the men are becoming abusers because they saw their father abuse, but the women are seeking on some crazy psychological, I don't quite understand it, level, they're seeking people who are abusers.

10:26 That's one of those dynamics we're you're you're comforted almost by I don't even know how else to say it, but it's what you're used to, it's what you know and it's a sad reality. Now, in all of what we're talking about, we never leave God out of the equation. God can intervene and God will intervene if, if people surrender to him, even these abusers can ultimately get saved and come to the Lord and confess their sin and all up to their to their crimes. So God is in these equations and God, of course, in all of our conversations with a woman at an abortion center who's in a domestic abuse situation, we're bringing God into the equation.

11:07 God is good. Your abuser is not a representative of the Lord. Your father, maybe her father, was abuse of also, because that can be it's like this, this crazy cycle. So kind. He's not a representation of the Lord. The Lord is not like that, right. The Lord Is Merciful and Gracious, and so we're always bringing the gracious truths of God's Word to bear in these situations. And I will tell you, sometimes that is difficult because they have known nothing else. They have only known abuse at the hands of those who were supposed to protect them. Yeah, and for that they're probably the hardest ones in my experience to counsel, because when you talk about the goodness of God, they will flat out say not in my life, I haven't seen it. Yeah, and so I don't say that to discourage us, but to say dig deep and and and figure out how you can respond in a biblical way to a statement like that, because it is not uncommon. Yeah, I hear it a lot. So this is a really important one. Elective pregnancy termination, abortion among women with sexual abuse was associated with sexual assault, lack of control over contraceptive choices and coercive decision making. And that coercive decision making is really, really an important thing to think about and dwell upon, because these women are being coerced not only in whether to a board or not, but in every choice in life.

12:39 Yeah, to the point where they no longer are making choices, they are letting someone else make the choice for them. And I say that and and emphasize it because the last thing we want to do is to play into that. We don't want to be seen as a coercive force. Yeah, and so I'm going to talk later on when we get into strategies, about how we can ensure that that we are not. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we don't want to step into the role of the abuser ourselves. And be coercive and manipulative, because a lot of these abuse situations are, you know, these these men are manipulators right, and they're doing as you mentioned before, it's not just physical abuse. Some of these situations is not physical abuse at all, but it's emotional right abuse, mental abuse, which can be sometimes even worse. Yeah, some that situte. Definitely so. And the women who had not informed their partner about the abortion were three times more likely to be victims of abuse then women who did inform their partner. And again, that's a really important thing to know, because often times a woman will drive into the abortion center and the man will come over and talk to us and say, I had no idea this was an abortion center. Yeah, and we have always, at least I have usually felt like, oh, the poor guy, and well, you know I mean, I don't, yeah, I don't say what a creep that woman is, but I feel bad for the guy and I feel I feel harsher towards the woman, when

14:11 in fact that could be a tip off that that woman is in an emotionally or physically abusive relationship. She sees the abortion as the only way to escape this, this terrible life, that that she doesn't know how to escape and she knows that if she has this child, not only is she now further tied to this man, but the statistics also show that abusers use the children to further control the woman, threatening the woman with, you know, the safety of the children or whatever, but they also abused the children right often. Yeah, I know when I encounter these situations as a man, maybe it's a little different. Definitely is a little different from me when I'm talking to another man and who comes over to me and tells me, you know, I don't want her to have the abortion. If it was up to me, she wouldn't have the abortion. I like to actually dig a little deeper in that. Yeah, because what I've discovered is a lot of times those words are only really a fig leaf, a covering that he uses to actually take the guilt of the abortion and what he's feeling, because he's feeling guilt, even though he might be a total dirt bag right, he's feeling guilty. He's taking that guilt and put an all off on her when in reality, if I dig a little deeper, I find it. Well, he drove her to the abortion clinic, right, he paid for the abortion.

15:35 So He's trying to tell me and trying to make me believe that he doesn't want her to have the abortion, and yet he's the one who drove her here and paid for it. Okay, yeah, you're communicating something. These are mixed messages, buddy. Right, you need to own up to your part in this thing, and I think it is sort of that dynamic going on. There's just manipulation in this control so that now he's absolved of the guilt of the whole thing and then later on he can use his his manipulative, abusive power over her and Lord the abortion over her and use it as more ammunition to be more abusive toward her. Right. So it's a really vicious cycle and it's a really deceptive way and it's a horrible thing to do to another human being. It is, and it's from what my research and then my subsequent conversation with a domestic violence program told me, was most women don't escape a domestic violence situation until really they have hit rock bottom, either their life is in danger they've been almost killed. That she said.

16:41 They will leave six or seven times before they will finally leave for good. From so it's a very very hard issue to to deal with. And when you say she said that, you're referring to a lady that reached out here locally because coming looking for resources and dealing with the three MOMS that you're dealing with now right that have come to the abortion clinic and they're in involved in a domestic abuse situation. Yeah, your and this is what we do. We encounter a situation, we try to dig for resources, we try to find anything that we can, resources organizations to plug these women into, because we're not the experts on these subjects. Were not the experts on domestic abuse and stuff like that. So you've dug for some local resources. So talk a little bit about what you found out and some of the principles that the lady you talked to shared. That can help us. They can help you guys who are listening, to be more effective and more careful and dealing with these domestic abuse situations. Right. Well, I'll give you a little bit of a case study because it will help the women that I encountered a couple days ago, because it will help in understanding, as I was talking with the person from the our local press domestic violence resource. So the woman a couple of days now. Just do want to make make sure folks understand this is not an organization that's like part of our life network. This is a secular organization anyway. So some of the principles you know. I don't say take them with a grain of salt, but we need to process them through the word of God. But these people have been involved in these situations more often than we have and they've learned and there are some principles that I think

18:15 we can glean from that. So that's just a little cave yet as we're talking about this guess, and that was the tension. As I was talking with her, she was very open that the woman has been remo she has felt a loss of control to such a degree in every area of her life that she no longer has taken control of anything. She is completely controlled by this abusive man, and the domestic violence person told me that one of the most important goals for them is to return control to the woman and she flat out told me we're not trained to deal with abortion. That's not what we're dealing with. We are trying. Our major focus is the safety of that woman and restoring to her what she has lost. That sense of control, and she was very honest. She said if that means that that woman is going to take control and have an abortion, we are there to help her to regain control of her life. The safety of the baby is not our focus right. So, of course, to me that tells me all right, then there are, I don't know if I want to say dangers in referring them, sure, to a domestic finance program but there are things I'm going to want to be sure to impart to that woman right before I refer her, yeah, to that program and maybe we can talk about that a little bit later as we go into the stretch. Yeah, and maybe this is a point where I can just mentioned you guys who are listening. Maybe

19:47 there is. We did a little bit of googling. Yeah, and we've looked for nationally some Christian organizations, because what we don't want to do is we don't want to refer a woman to a domestic abuse organization that's going to maybe try to convince her to have an abortion. I mean, I certainly don't want to do that when they don't want to be careful to in saying that, because the the woman I spoke with was very careful to say. It's not that we would convince them. Sure that's not their goal, but they do want to restore that loss of control and do in so doing, they may yet make a choice for abortion and they're not going to. It's not that they're supporting the choice for abortion, they're supporting the ability to take control of their choices and not have someone else controlling their choice right, and so they're taking, I guess, a neutral approach to abortion, which to me it's neutrality on the issue of abortion can be. Abortion is going to be destructive of that woman. It's not going to be helpful. So anyway, I mentioned that to say you guys who are listening, if you know of some national organizations that are solid Christian organizations that can deal with domestic abuse and domestic violent situations, please shoot me over an email. D Parks, that cities for lifecom, Vicky V cussy organ cities for Lifecom, and just let us know. We'd like to connect with those organizations. Really we like to have that because we like to make a list of resources to meet these needs and if I can put a mom on the phone with the organization that can help talk her through and walk her through the situation. That's a Christian

21:19 organization. I'm going to feel a lot better than just kind of throwing her over to some secular organization. Absolutely, we are a Gospel Centered Ministry and we absolutely would always prefer if we could connect the women with a Christian resource and when we can't and they need help, we do connect with seler. Yeah, absolutely, but this organization specifically provides emergency shelter at an undisclosed location. Okay, at but they're she said that they're they're housing requirements are they're very stringent for the women who will meet the the requirements to go into that program and it basically means that that woman is under imminent threat of thread of death right or or severe physical violence, which actually the women I spoke with today was. Yeah, she had been shot at by her boyfriend. Well, so they also provide seven hotline counseling and then resources that are specifically tailored to help the woman. They give strategies so that if the woman will not leave the situation, which, as she's said and statistics show, is rare, the for the women to finally leave takes a long time. It's rare, but they know the strategies that help the woman to diffuse an explosive situation and to stay safe. Yeah, and I can. I'm not sure I know those strategies. I'm sure I don't. So I even asked her, well, what could we tell the women? And she said, to tell you the truth, the absolute first, most important thing you need to do is get them the domestic violence twenty four hour hot line. She said the

22:52 people on that hot line are trained to deal with it. It is very complex, it's multilayered and you're not going to know in a ten minute or even an hour. Talk with me, what is what is the best thing to suggest to these women, other than connect with the hot line? Yeah, okay, so that was the first and most important thing, she said. Connect them with with the hotline. She said. A second thing that was really important was that the abuser has complete control over the woman's life. And if the abuser has control and is is still living with her or still in her life, which in many cases is the case, he will have access to her phone, he will read her text he will read her emails and and he will monitor where she's going, who she seen, who she's talking with. She said that is a given in a in the controlling atmosphere of a domestic violence situation, therefore, or giving your texting that woman after you've spoken with her could put her in more danger because if he perceives very important point, if the man perceives, the Abuser perceives any loss or lessening of his influence and control, he is more apt to become increasingly violent.

24:23 Yeah, so what have I done? Every time I've sent a woman off with our list of resources and I'm going to sign her up for a mentorship program, I text her. I text you almost immediately, say how you do in and and then I'll text you off in that same night the next morning. And when I spoke with the the expert, she said don't do that. You, you are putting that woman in increased danger because he will find those text and he will take it out on her. Yeah, so one of the things she said that they do is they have the woman, give the woman the phone numbers that she needs to contact, write them down, make sure she has them and tell her when you were in a safe place with a secure phone, you call me. Okay, and that's really hard for me. Yeah, because I know that if a woman has chosen life. Those first forty eight hours are critical in sticking with that choice for life. But this woman, the expert said, the woman's safety is really in jeopardy if you're texting and calling her. Yeah, so that was a really important tip, that that she said returning control as much as possible to the victim of domestic violence. So as you're talking with them, think about that. How do I give back control to this woman? We don't want to give back control in terms of saying it's okay to go have an abortion,

25:59 but I as I was thinking through strategies which I think will deal with later, there are some things we can do that still allow us to do what we do and give our message, God's message, but have the woman still feel that it is in her control, not ours. Yeah, safe and secure housing is very difficult and very limited. We know that already, right, just in just a typical situation, not a domestic abuse situation. But if the abuser, if the abused woman, tries to leave the abuser, he will find her. Is basically the sad bottom line. Yeah, and so the organization that I spoke with does not disclose their housing. It is it is undisclosed, secret housing that only the woman and her counselor through this organization, know about, so that the abuser is not tipped off where to find her. In most cases, it is very unwise to offer to drive the woman home or even to a safe place. If the abuser sees it, you have just increased her danger. Yeah, and I know we've driven women home many times because we know the man is really angry and we know the woman is afraid and we offer a ride home. And that is

27:33 not according to the expert. That is really foolish and dn't and even dangerous, not only to the woman, probably does. This is a violent human being. Yeah, who sees now this woman is exposing him and he's losing his control over her. So again, something I had never known or thought about, but I will now. And also, I think throughout the nation, I know the sidewark counselors that I interact with. There's some of the finest people on Earth, the most giving, the most generous people. I know and I hear over and over and over again stories of driving women to save places, to even the counselor's home, or driving them home. And now knowing, okay, a third of the women you interact with at least probably are victims of domestic abuse. That is probably not a wise thing for us to do. Yeah, not just for our safety but for the woman's safety. So thinking about how we interact with the man is very important to I. I've heard countless times and I've agreed with it. Step up, be a man. Yeah, you're a coward. I mean, I don't know if I we call them a coward, but kind of suggest that, you know, if not directly. So, think about it. You're facing a man who, being in control of that woman, is his. That's

29:11 what he is feeding off of. And if, if there is an attack on him, imagine what that's doing to that mindset. Well, yeah, so we still have to do what we know God has called us to do right, and that's, beyond a shadow of a doubt, bring God into the equation, share the Gospel. But now how do we do it with all this information? And at first I just sat home and thought, I have no idea. I felt I honestly the the my first response with this information was kind of to feel paralyzed. Yeah, that's somewhere I ended up, because God always got, always gives us great wisdom. Yeah, and you had started, or told me when we had started discussing this, about a biblical passage and I you know, honestly, I don't remember what it was. But if you come up with it, I remember thinking when you were talking about it it had to do with control and I remember thinking that's really a good passage to share with people in this situation. So if it comes to you, okay, if it comes back to you mentioned because it comes back to my mind, I will share it. It was good.

30:37 But there are something about yeah, there are. You do think you remember? I'm trying to think of the passes that you're talking about in particular. Well, so, so here's where we are. then. What do you do with all this? What are some key strategies or ideas in how we deal with the women and the men now that we suspect a domestic abuse situation? So you want to hear what I came up with and I'm sure you'll have you'll have some other one. So may you probably have got them all cover. They but listen. Well, we'll see. Okay. First of all, just think about it. If you're an abuser, are you content, joyful, your heart filled with peace? No, you probably pretty pretty miserable, pretty miserable human being, and remember that. Remember that this man, an abuser and the abused are people that are not healthy, right.

31:36 They are not spiritually healthy, they're not emotionally healthy, and so know that, while it may be buried very deep in their psyche, they want out. No one wants to be an abuser. Many of them have lived abuse their whole life. This is all they know, an or I. I'm not going to discount that. There isn't evil, outright evil and demonic possession, but I think it helps to remember neither these people are in a place where they really want to be. Yeah, and what's The answer to that? That's bringing the Lord in his truth and to the equation, bringing a fact that God rescues and saves all who come to him. Yeah, yeah, so I thought the first thing would be to state facts. Yeah, be very careful about name calling, especially well into both both to the abuser and to the abuse. The the abused has had enough name calling to last for a lifetime. And the abuser is, we already know, of violent, controlling man, very immature, very unhealthy, dealing with loss of control and if he's hearing what he feels is challenges to who he is, in his control, you're probably going to make the situation worse. So if I call him a scumbag or her bag, I think I did that earlier, okay, but I still believe that men that abuse women are scumbag. Yeah,

33:09 but I probably wouldn't call him that to his face, certainly in that scenario. Right. So what's your motivation, though? Is Your desire that that he goes home and beat her up? Obviously now we're not. Yeah. So what can we do that will be less likely to result in her being attacked? And sometimes I think that is going to mean that we're going to need to hold back on some of the stuff that we really feel, yeah, and believe in in how we deal with him. Yeah, because we want to make sure that, of course, we want to protect that baby, right, you know, because the scenario is at the abortion center, here's a man, here's a woman, it seems that maybe there's an abuse situation going on. We want to save that baby, we want to reach that woman and we care regardss of what other people say. We care about both that woman and that baby and we care about that man too.

34:04 But as far as our primary objective. We want to want to say that baby, want to reach that mom and so I think, and you tell me if I'm wrong, I'm going to focus my conversation and my speech toward her. I'm going to be as gracious as possible, of course, if I perceive that could be the situation, and I'm probably not going to say which I might be inclined to say, but as in the conversation that we're having, I'm thinking I'm probably not going to say a if he's abusive, come over here, we can help you. I'm probably not going to call it out like that because it's probably not going to be helpful at all and it's probably going to make things worse. And I know I have caught that out before, or something similar to that. Maybe not that directly but similar, and now I I agree with you. I would not call that out.

34:50 So state facts, facts about the humanity of the baby, facts about useful resources, facts about Biblical truth of the sanctity of human life. And the goal is, if you state the facts and the truth of the Gospel, but in a factual manner, this is what the Bible says, this is what's true about the baby, this is what's true about the resources we can offer. You are giving the woman the ability, in the tools to come to a conclusion on her own. First of all, you're not coercing her, you're just saying these are the facts. Yeah, and and, and you're giving the abuser and opportunity to hear some truth that he might not otherwise take in, such as the truth of God and God's clear desire for what a family is supposed to be. And I think that was the story that you told me that I can't remember. But about what a man is supposed to be and his yeah, well, that's efficians chapter five and it speaks of husband's love your wives, as Christ loves the church, and rather than Lording your power over her and abusing and manipulating her, you're supposed to lay your life down for her. That's what we're called to do. We're called rather than take advantage of women and children, were supposed to protect them.

36:14 And the example here in if Hesians chapter five is of Christ. What did he do? He didn't abuse his church. He actually lays his life down for his church. That's the example. Love your wife is. Christ loves the church. This is, by the way, exactly this is what what you were saying earlier on that I thought this is perfect. Did the I think this chapter, these verses, they're not specifically targeting. Hey, you abuse her, control freak, you, you violent man. You're giving, right out of scripture, the truth of who Jesus was and what he commanded all men to be. Ye, right, yeah, absolutely, and that is the biblical truth. Right, and that is how, even though maybe society at large and other cultures and things like that, even people who claim to be Christian, have, over the years, made manhood and the authority that God gives us as men a license to abuse and take advantage of and manipulate and Lord their power over their their wives or the women that you know are supposedly under them. That's not the way the Bible views it.

37:17 Leadership in a Biblical context is servant leadership, serving your wife, loving her, laying your life down for her. Now, I'm not going to go into a whole thing about leadership in the structure of family, but as far as God's words is God's Word is concerned, men are supposed to be leaders, but not tyrants and certainly not abusers, right, but those who lay their lives down for those who they're called to lead. Yeah, and I think that this would be a whole other podcast and not one necessarily that is our subject. Yeah, but the submission issue I can see being used easily, twisted, yeah, in a twisted and corrupted manner to support almost not a direct abuse, but some but feed into that abuse of mentality. Oh, absolutely. I mean abusers, people will use whatever means they can to manipulate people who use the word of God. They'll use whatever they know they can come up with to use. But God's word certainly is not in support of that sort of behavior. God's words against it. Again, husband's Love Your wives as Christ loves the church. Yeah, gave himself for her, so that that's a biblical reality. Yeah, and and the truth of scripture is that even to a man who is as despicable in many ways as as one who would abuse a woman or a child, even he can be reached by the power of scripture. Yeah, we and we can't forget that holy

38:50 spirits work. That's right hearts and that's what's not in the secular domestic abuse programs. And so I'm not saying just hand these women over to these programs and pray that all will be well. I think we have a at absolutely God ordained critical role to introduce the Gospel and I'm just suggesting maybe there's ways we could do it that might be a little bit different than we are right now in light of this information. solutely okay. The the second one we kind of touched on. Avoid accusatory or condemning language or named calling the counterproductive. Number three, if the woman has lied to the man about the facility being an abortion center, consider the possibility that she fears his anger and control and it's an abusive relationship, because it's going to alter how you speak to the two of them. Yeah, by the way, things may be different if the woman comes without the man or if the woman comes with the man.

39:45 If she comes without the man, you're going to be able to really talk with her very specifically and and give her the important numbers and have her call you. If the man is there, you're going to have to be a whole lot more careful. Sure, given the link between abortion and domestic violence, I think it would be a great idea to add a direct question on any medical intake form. Are you the victim of physical abuse? Okay, so in particular you're talking about, you know if we're talking about mobile argnancy centers or like what we have here, the MOBILTERRA sound unit. Having that as a question. Yeah, it would be important and I think if we counsel women car side or on the sidewalk, it's to just be part of our regular questioning. Knowing a third of the women statistically or in domestic abuse, I think it should be one of the first things we ask if the man's not there, if the man is there, if you can get her alone and ask her privately. But are you in any danger? Does he hurt you? Yeah, is I think just be direct, be blunt and give them that opportunity to answer if they're ready at all to leave the relationship. Hopefully they will answer that. Look for opportunities to provide her with the domestic abuse hotline, but you've you got to try and do without the abuse are knowing. If we don't have it on our literature, it should be because if it's nestled in with a whole bunch of other resources, it's not going to red flag the abuser who might be looking at the resources.

41:13 He might just be looking at, Oh look, there's all these resources, but if you include the domestic abuse hotline, she has hopefully access that an opportunity to call that okay. Empower both the man and the woman with a Godly vision of what a family can be. We talked about that a little bit from a biblical perspective, paying to positive picture of mutual submission, which is exactly what you talked about there, and I think that's one of the most important messages we can give them, because my heart hopes, my spirit hopes, that both of them are yearning, even though they don't know it, for a better, healthy relationship. Share the Gospel if they're showing any interest in listening to it, and share it to both of them if they're willing to listen to it. We know it's the only hope for true transformation.

42:04 Be sure the woman has your first name and number so she can contact you if you're the counselor would not share any private information like a last name or an address, especially when there's a violent person in the equation. And that's just something to mentioned real quick. It's something we're very intentional about here in Charlotte is when we give out literature, we always have a personal contact number there and we have, you know, list, as you mentioned earlier, of resources, local pregnancy centers, things like that. But a personal contact number is important because of situations like this. When they can text us, they can reach back out to us. Now we do, in most situations try to get their number as well so that we can have a way to follow up with them, especially if they've chosen life. Right, we're going to try to get their phone number. Yeah, and these situations, though, you're kind of leaving that ball in their court. Yeah, I mean you can try to get their number, but make it clear as it's safe to call, you run and according to the domestic violence hotline, it is not. They may think it is, but she said it's not.

43:06 So be careful with that. Okay, if the woman has expressed fear for her life, for her safety, there is a time to call the police. Yeah, if the man is there. I did have to do that once. The man was was forcing her, pulling her, as she screaming and crying, into the abortion center. I did call the police and she actually told the police everything was okay, and that's what sometimes happened. Right. Yeah, do not drive the woman home, do not take her to your home. That's downright dangerous, dangerous for you, dangerous for her. Don't give her your your address or your last name. Pray, if prayer and the need for God to intervene is so important it all. It's, of course, always important, but it is really important in in this situation because there's so much that we can't do. Seek to diffuse anger, which is really important. It's easy to get in the flesh and get angry, especially when you see this kind of off right stuff going on, but it is not a good not health, not a good thing to be doing in this situations like gas on the fire. Exactly. If the woman is alone, be sure she has all the resources. If you're connecting her with a mentorship program whatever you're connecting with her with, make sure she has all of that before she leaves you, because you're not going to be calling her.

44:27 You're going to count on her calling you. If you're connecting her with a mentor or there's people that are going to be helping her with any resource, be sure that she has their phone number and notify who all those resources. Don't call her. Don't call her until she has called you and given given you permission or times when it's safe. And finally, our model is Jesus. Jesus was calm, confident, prayerful, truthful, tactful, kind and direct, and so we are to mirror him and I think that is true and no matter what situation. Absolutely, but maybe more so in this than some of the others. Yeah, absolutely. So it's probably been pretty heavy.

45:15 Yeah, heavy subject. It's a subject that we deal with a lot. Of these hard case subjects are difficult to deal with, and so we certainly don't want to have you guys left with like, Oh man, I hope I don't encounter this or if I do, I hope I can know what to do. God is our direction, right, he gives us direction. Yeah, his Holy Spirit is in us, and so when you encounter situations like this, whatever the hard case situation might be, it's always important to lift it up to the Lord in prayer. God has far more wisdom than I do, and Vicki does. Then the domestic abuse hotline lady does.

45:57 God knows. Yeah, and God can intervene and certainly God can save dirt bags. It'scumbags. He saved me. I was not an abusive man, but I'll had other sin issues that were going on and you know, God can save these women out of these situations. So we have to always bring God into the equation, bring the hope of the Gospel and the in the equation. So hope this is equiped some of you guys that are listening if you have suggestions for us. Maybe you've dealt with a situation like this. You've been involved of them, maybe sidewalk canceling for a long time or a pregnancy center for a long time, and you've dealt with situations like this and you can offer us some wisdom. We certainly don't feel like we have it all together and we probably only really scratch the surface here in this podcast some of the things that can be touched on. So reach out to us.

46:44 I shared my email earlier d parks at cities for lifecom. She is a vcs Oregat cities for lifecom. Reach out to us if you have subjects you'd like for us to cover on this podcast and maybe guests that you want us to interview. Bring on, we've done that in the past. We'd certainly be willing to do that. So reach out to us and we'll put this article out on sidewalks for lifecom. Sidewalks the number four lifecom. But until next time, God bless, give me out for love, give me our love, for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life.

47:34 Nothing's too precious. And some met you