Oct. 9, 2019

Euthanasia, Assisted Suicide, and Abortion - A Conversation With Apologist Devin Pellew for Ratio Christi

Euthanasia, Assisted Suicide, and Abortion - A Conversation With Apologist Devin Pellew for Ratio Christi

Being prolife is about more than standing against abortion it's about protecting the sacredness of human life. Join Vicky and Daniel as they talk with Christian apologist Devin Pellew of Ration Christi about how euthanasia, assisted suicide, and...


Being prolife is about more than standing against abortion it's about protecting the sacredness of human life. Join Vicky and Daniel as they talk with Christian apologist Devin Pellew of Ration Christi about how euthanasia, assisted suicide, and abortion are an attack on the image of God.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:06.440 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me Lord. 2 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:10.630 I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast and this episode we're going 3 00:00:10.630 --> 00:00:14.269 to do an interview with Devin Palu from Rassio Christie ministries. We're going to 4 00:00:14.310 --> 00:00:17.870 talk about the issue of abortion, we're going to talk about euthanasia, assisted 5 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:21.109 suicide and what it means to be made in the image of God. Stay 6 00:00:21.190 --> 00:00:34.579 tuned. I felt show passish touch your welcome to the Gospel Center pro life 7 00:00:34.619 --> 00:00:39.530 podcast. We have with us today Devin Palu with Rassio Christie ministries. Him 8 00:00:39.570 --> 00:00:43.170 and his wife or at went through university and other college campuses doing ministry there. 9 00:00:43.369 --> 00:00:45.850 Just share what quick what you guys do and a little bit about your 10 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:49.929 ministry. Yeah, so the group where with again is ratio Christie, which 11 00:00:49.929 --> 00:00:53.159 is Latin for the reason for Christ. I'm sure a lot of the people 12 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:57.920 that listen to this podcast may be aware of apologetics, but maybe for those 13 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.880 who are not, apologetics is just giving an answer or giving reasons why you 14 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.510 hold the position that you hold. And so a lot of different campus ministries 15 00:01:07.549 --> 00:01:11.549 focus on a lot of different areas. That are they're all needed and they're 16 00:01:11.590 --> 00:01:18.579 good to have but our area is primarily apologetics. So we do weekly meetings 17 00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:23.180 where each semester we do a different theme. This semester is the Bible. 18 00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:25.540 How do you know it's true? How did we get it? How is 19 00:01:25.540 --> 00:01:30.459 it translated? So we're at winthrop university. We also do some classes at 20 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:34.969 York Tech Community College. Okay, tonight we kick off our high school, 21 00:01:34.329 --> 00:01:40.569 which is Rasho Christie, college prep, and that gets called high schoolers ready 22 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:44.609 for college. You'll be prepared. In addition to that, we're also able 23 00:01:44.689 --> 00:01:49.200 to lead a professor's group of some amazing Christian professors on the campus of winthrop 24 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.359 who also want to know and study apologetics. Normally, this time of the 25 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.640 day I'm actually doing our own podcast. Okay, what you matters and start 26 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.040 with it to lose. No, it's a it's good to be here. 27 00:02:01.150 --> 00:02:05.670 And then, yeah, so you can check out our youtube page, Rasho 28 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:07.550 Christie winthrop universe. Okay, yeah, cool, yeah, we'll make sure 29 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:10.830 and put that in the in the notes on the podcast, of guess can. 30 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:15.189 So people can who are listening can connect with you, guys. So 31 00:02:15.389 --> 00:02:19.539 I wanted you to come because you know we've ministered before at the abortion clinic. 32 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:22.659 That's primarily what we do as a ministry, Vicki and on, and 33 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:25.979 cities for life, and then you guys some years back with forty days for 34 00:02:27.099 --> 00:02:29.219 life, and you'd come out and you brought some groups out and we just 35 00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:31.449 had the honor to be able to minister alongside you guys, and Y'all have 36 00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:36.370 been sort of handinhand with what we've been doing a cities for life since I 37 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:38.370 think cities for life began. So it's just a blessing to know you guys 38 00:02:38.689 --> 00:02:42.449 and I know you've got, you know, this philosophical mind, so I 39 00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:46.360 wanted to kind of mine your philosophical mind. How about that? And I 40 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.840 wanted to talk about as I sent you, you know, a few questions. 41 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.560 Of course, talking about the issue of abortion. That's what this podcast 42 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:53.919 is about, talking about it, the issue of abortion in light of the 43 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:59.150 Gospel. But I think these other issues that I mentioned to you about youth 44 00:02:59.189 --> 00:03:02.270 and Asia and assisted suicide sort of, I mean definitely tie into this this 45 00:03:02.509 --> 00:03:07.069 issue of abortion. Will Get to those issues, but just just to ask 46 00:03:07.110 --> 00:03:09.669 you from your experience, you sent me a video of a young man who 47 00:03:10.229 --> 00:03:15.819 was a student at went through it, who came initially was for abortion. 48 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:19.979 He was pro choice and an abortion was an okay thing. And you'd talked 49 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.699 with him and had some conversations with him and he actually changed his position on 50 00:03:23.780 --> 00:03:28.050 the issue of abortion and now he's prolife. Right, he say he's he's 51 00:03:28.050 --> 00:03:31.210 against abortion. So what are some of those? I guess I was first 52 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:36.050 ask some of those challenges when you're talking to people from a Biblical and a 53 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:39.449 philosophical perspective about the issue of a life, about abortion. What are some 54 00:03:39.490 --> 00:03:44.240 of the challenges that you found with students? Yeah, you know, one 55 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:46.960 of the things we do when we are at the campus. You know, 56 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:52.120 where to a secular university. So a lot of the students that come they 57 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.909 may have been brought up in the church and so they've heard a lot of 58 00:03:55.030 --> 00:03:59.270 the scriptures, you know, Jeremiah, you formed me, the womb, 59 00:03:59.310 --> 00:04:03.710 etc. But they don't really know outside of that. What are some good 60 00:04:03.870 --> 00:04:08.509 reasons to think, you know, life begins at conception, or good reasons 61 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:12.620 to think that abortion is wrong? So I think just giving them some of 62 00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:16.300 these answers, some of the biological answers, philosophical answers, showing them that 63 00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:20.100 life begins at conception, and then kind of going through a lot of the 64 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:26.370 pro choice objections. I think that's it's it's really key and vital because they 65 00:04:26.490 --> 00:04:30.209 need to know they're getting an onslaught of all these particular objections that are coming. 66 00:04:30.250 --> 00:04:33.250 Yeah, and most of the objections, as you know, they just 67 00:04:33.410 --> 00:04:38.089 assume that the unborn is not a human being. Sure. So what we 68 00:04:38.250 --> 00:04:42.480 try and do is keep laser focused on that question of what is the unborn 69 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.319 and then when all these objections come, just kind of walk them through how 70 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:48.720 to do that. Yeah, so do you find that there's sort of, 71 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.350 I don't like, a wall because they were raising the church and then they're 72 00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:57.509 exposed to the university setting, in the university setting, in a lot of 73 00:04:57.629 --> 00:05:01.269 university settings at least, it's almost everything that's contrary to what they learned in 74 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:04.589 church? Do you find that they sort of, with their confidence in their 75 00:05:04.750 --> 00:05:09.220 in their university professors, sort of put up a wall against any sort of 76 00:05:09.259 --> 00:05:13.500 Biblical truth and then you find that a barrier between even talking about pro life? 77 00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:15.300 Yeah, yeah, I mean sometimes, you know, you have a 78 00:05:15.339 --> 00:05:19.660 couple of different scenarios with students. Some of them, you know, they 79 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:23.970 grow up in the church. They and and this is not to bash the 80 00:05:24.050 --> 00:05:27.610 church. I love the church, or Etra, but they go to VBS, 81 00:05:27.689 --> 00:05:30.889 they go to Sunday morning, they go to Sunday night and they think, 82 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.170 because they've had a little bit of answers in Genesis, that they know 83 00:05:33.290 --> 00:05:38.240 apologetic. Yeah, and then they get to the university and they get creamed. 84 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.000 Yeah, as long as it's assumed that the Bible's the word of God 85 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.560 and it's assumed there's a Christian worldview, they do okay, but the university 86 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.949 just doesn't share those particular assumptions. And so what a lot hat with. 87 00:05:50.110 --> 00:05:55.550 A lot of times what happens is they just end up having a lot of 88 00:05:55.629 --> 00:05:58.629 questions about how do I know the Bible's true? How do I know God 89 00:05:58.790 --> 00:06:01.670 even exists? They go home, they talk to their parents. Parents think, 90 00:06:01.709 --> 00:06:04.300 well, you know, you talked to the pastor, because that's kind 91 00:06:04.339 --> 00:06:08.980 of his job, right, and so you know they're the pastor's getting hit 92 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:13.420 with all these objections from somebody like a Richard Dowkins or Harris or these guys 93 00:06:13.459 --> 00:06:16.939 that are the new atheists and they don't know how to respond because seminary didn't 94 00:06:16.939 --> 00:06:19.529 really teach them that. Yeah, and so it's kind of this well you 95 00:06:19.649 --> 00:06:24.930 just have to have faith, kind of a thing which most students know Rightley, 96 00:06:24.970 --> 00:06:27.689 it's really not a good answer. Yeah, and so they do build 97 00:06:27.689 --> 00:06:32.000 up this wall almost as though, you know, church and Sunday school. 98 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:36.279 That's one thing on Sundays, but things like science, biology, philosophy, 99 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.959 that's what we do the rest of the week. Right. So it's almost 100 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.639 these two separate categories. So when you get into the issue of abortion, 101 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.509 it's almost like they put this into the category of the science and so well, 102 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:50.709 maybe my faith, my faith, would say you shouldn't have an abortion, 103 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:56.069 but you know, through science and biology and that, you know they're 104 00:06:56.069 --> 00:06:59.550 going to come to a different conclusion. They don't know how to harmonize those 105 00:06:59.670 --> 00:07:01.459 tools that God's give. Yeah, sure. So what are some of the 106 00:07:01.540 --> 00:07:04.420 ways that you, because I know you'd guess, do more than just trying 107 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:10.300 to convince people to you believe the Bible and then believe that life begins a 108 00:07:10.339 --> 00:07:13.980 conception, you're actually you not just trying to convince people, you're trying to 109 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.410 shure up those who already believe those things, but give them good reasons and 110 00:07:16.569 --> 00:07:21.610 good answers to to give to those who in there, you know, their 111 00:07:21.649 --> 00:07:26.050 peers that would ask. So what are some of the things you encourage students 112 00:07:26.129 --> 00:07:28.970 with? The Hey is, this is why we're pro life. Is Christians, 113 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:30.360 and what are some of the things that you that you help them to 114 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.480 shure up their their faith with? So, Greg Cokel, I'm sure you 115 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.839 you know Greg Cocol's ministry standard reason, he wrote a really good book called 116 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.800 tactics, and so in this book tactics, he's really teaching how to ask 117 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:46.829 question. Okay. And so, for example, when I'm talking, I 118 00:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.149 remember talking to his student and you know, a lot of them would say 119 00:07:50.189 --> 00:07:54.790 that they are Christians but would fall on this pro choice side, and so 120 00:07:55.029 --> 00:07:57.750 just question. So I remember asking this young man. He's saying, well, 121 00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:01.500 I'm pro choice and I said, well, choice to do? What? 122 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:03.579 What is it that you believe women should have choice to do? Should 123 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:07.899 have a choice to have an abortion? Nash, well, what is an 124 00:08:07.939 --> 00:08:11.339 abortion? And it's almost like when I ask that, the light went on 125 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:13.689 and he realized, Oh, yeah, it's Id because you just you hear 126 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.209 the terms, you use the terms, but when you really think, well, 127 00:08:16.329 --> 00:08:20.649 what is an abortion? Yeah, then it's almost like the light turned 128 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:24.850 on and he saw that's all I had to do with them. So that's 129 00:08:24.889 --> 00:08:28.519 one example. Another example is just really making them define their terms. So 130 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.720 another student would say, well, abortion is a termination of a pregnancy, 131 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.159 but you know, when my wife gave birth to our little girl, Aliana 132 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.110 shameless plugged me. Yeah, I'll learned men that pregnancy was terminated, sure, 133 00:08:43.230 --> 00:08:45.710 but her life wasn't terminated. Yeah, so it's more than just a 134 00:08:45.710 --> 00:08:52.590 termination of a pregnancy. So it's really making them hone in on the words 135 00:08:52.629 --> 00:08:56.019 that are used. What exactly is meant? Or sometimes, when more example, 136 00:08:56.059 --> 00:08:58.379 a student might say, well, I personally would never have an abortion, 137 00:09:00.139 --> 00:09:03.100 but I wouldn't try to force my morality on others. So I may 138 00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:05.779 ask, well, why wouldn't you personally have an abortion? Well, because 139 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:09.419 I believe it kills a baby. Yeah, well, if you believe it 140 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:11.649 kills a baby, why would you be okay with others having the choice to 141 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.049 kill a baby? Yeah, and then, you know, just some of 142 00:09:15.129 --> 00:09:16.649 those questions. I think they just haven't thought through. It's a lot of 143 00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:22.370 slogans within the abortion argument and when you really drill down and make them think 144 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:26.360 through it, they can see the issues. Yeah, yeah, Vicky, 145 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.399 we did. We've done some podcast about week, sort of tackled the pro 146 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480 choice arguments for abortion and we deal with some of the biblical pro choice arguments. 147 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.470 I don't know if you've heard, Devin, the numbers shout. I 148 00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:41.429 know you have the numbers. Chapter Five, passage where, you know, 149 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:45.590 priests is to take some dust off the the tabernacle floor. Give it. 150 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:50.429 This is supposedly a God induced abortion. Now I don't imagine you. Do 151 00:09:50.509 --> 00:09:52.940 you deal with that sort of thing either? Not, not, normally. 152 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:58.139 Normally the people that we're dealing with, it's not. They're not trying to 153 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:01.659 make a biblical case. Yeah, right now there are some liberal groups on 154 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:05.820 campus that we will, you know, interact with and that, but they 155 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:09.809 wouldn't they wouldn't be able to, they wouldn't know those kind of arguments. 156 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:13.730 So most of the things we're getting are the arguments like, you know, 157 00:10:13.809 --> 00:10:18.769 it's the woman's body, it's a woman's choice, you don't want to ruin 158 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:22.759 her life if she's wanting to go finish school or you know, yeah, 159 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.039 unasure for a mistake or something like that. So or, you know, 160 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.799 they d t each more of the higher level arguments in classes like Judith Jarvis 161 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:39.350 Thompson's violin to argument stuff we just very yeah. So so do you? 162 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:41.830 Do you ever have a situation where our student is come to who is actually 163 00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:46.389 considering abortion and they've come and say tell me why I shouldn't do this? 164 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.700 So I we've had some out so not students, but like my my wife 165 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:54.940 is really the one that got me really involved in this. My wife has 166 00:10:54.019 --> 00:10:58.059 that all the time. Right, yeah, the phone, try to talk 167 00:10:58.139 --> 00:11:01.860 someone out of it like that. But as far as students go, we've 168 00:11:01.899 --> 00:11:05.769 had students come to us and say they're friends, their friend is concerned. 169 00:11:05.169 --> 00:11:07.809 What can I tell them? What do I say? Yeah, and can 170 00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:13.049 I ask you that, because I know our listeners are being prolife people that 171 00:11:13.210 --> 00:11:16.730 are look seeking, oftentimes to influence their their friends. Yeah, and and 172 00:11:18.330 --> 00:11:22.080 you know, just some basic points about well, where do you start? 173 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.519 And and and there's two groups. Those who claim that they know God. 174 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.440 Yeah, and claim that God will be a forgiving God it. We hear 175 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.480 that all the time. God will forgive me, I'm going to do this 176 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.549 or I think it's okay because we know that God will forgive. And then 177 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:37.750 those, and I think this is maybe the harder group to start with, 178 00:11:37.870 --> 00:11:43.669 because a baby's life is on the line. It's basically crisis emergency, that 179 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:46.179 baby's going to die. But they don't believe in God and so you don't 180 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:52.500 have the months that you probably take typically to take someone from an atheist position, 181 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:56.259 yeah, all the way to this human life that you carry is precious. 182 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:01.809 So if you can give some just basic, the actual practical things that 183 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.570 you would say in both of those scenarios, I think that would be really 184 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.090 helpful. Yeah, so I think with the course, with the biblical scenario, 185 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:13.129 you're just wanting to remind them, hey, if you are a Christian, 186 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:16.200 what is your authority? Right, and they know you know if you're 187 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.159 a Christian, it's the Bible. We talk a lot about the worldview and 188 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.600 how we see the world and the Bible is like the Lens in which we 189 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.000 see the world. And so what does the Bible say about these things? 190 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.629 So the Bible may not explicitly use the word abortion, but it talks about, 191 00:12:31.070 --> 00:12:33.230 you know, murder, talks about, you know onjust killing, and 192 00:12:33.389 --> 00:12:37.549 so you have to look at does abortion fall into that, and then you 193 00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:41.230 can show it that it does. What the other case, where they're not 194 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:48.779 Christians, see, there is general revelation and special revelation. General revelation is 195 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:52.059 what God has revealed to us through nature. You see Romans one talk about 196 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:56.019 this. Well, people know the difference between right and wrong. You may 197 00:12:56.059 --> 00:13:00.450 not be able to drill down on all the exact, you know, minutia 198 00:13:00.610 --> 00:13:05.570 of the particular right and wrong, but in general people know it's wrong to 199 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:11.889 torture babies rather than love them. Right. And so with general revelation, 200 00:13:11.289 --> 00:13:15.759 most people know the difference between right and wrong. If you ask it, 201 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.320 is it okay to kill a baby afterbirth? Ninety nine percent of atheists are 202 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.600 going to say no, it's not. They know that, even though they 203 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.950 don't believe that God exists, because God does exist, there's this rounding and 204 00:13:28.110 --> 00:13:31.190 foundation. It's what they would, you know, call like the ontological foundation, 205 00:13:31.350 --> 00:13:35.070 to where there is a moral standard, even if they don't believe God 206 00:13:35.190 --> 00:13:39.269 exists, and so you can appeal to that. But what I what I 207 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:43.740 do is just look at what is the scientific evidence? When does life begin? 208 00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:48.700 So I would just use a very simple, deductive argument, premise one, 209 00:13:50.139 --> 00:13:54.259 whatever be, I'm sort of giving a column there. Different argument, 210 00:13:54.940 --> 00:14:00.889 premise one. It is wrong to intentionally take the life of an innocent human 211 00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:03.610 being. Premise to abortion, take to the life of an innocent human being. 212 00:14:03.889 --> 00:14:07.649 Therefore abortion is wrong. So they're going to have to showcase premise one 213 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:11.000 or premise two faults, and I've never had anybody be able to give an 214 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.960 answer to that. Yeah, because most are going to grant. Yeah, 215 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.639 it is wrong to intentionally take the life of an innocent human being. So 216 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.600 now the next step is, okay, does abortion do this? If life 217 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.830 begins a conception, it does, and that's where I will marshal the Scientific 218 00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:35.830 Evidence from the Embryology Textbook, biology textbooks and demonstrate the authority show life begins 219 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:39.580 a conception. Right, right. We try to steer them. Then it's 220 00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:43.379 at some point, or at what point would you steer them into the truth 221 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.539 of the Gospel? Because ultimately, if you're going to truly change the heart 222 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.779 that that says you know that I'm going to Abhord, then we know, 223 00:14:52.179 --> 00:14:54.090 yeah, it has to come through a change in our soul, in our 224 00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:58.889 heart. Twist. Yeah, I think once they see that, once they 225 00:14:58.889 --> 00:15:01.889 can be shown that it is a human being, then you can get into 226 00:15:01.929 --> 00:15:05.889 some of those arguments of well, it has an intrinsic value because people are 227 00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:07.440 made in the image of God. You know, one of the big things 228 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:13.120 today is the LGBT or discrimination. So you can give examples. Is it 229 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.159 wrong to beat up a homosexual just because you know they're attracted to the same 230 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.029 sex? Right? Theologically, obviously we don't agree with that, but we 231 00:15:22.070 --> 00:15:24.350 wouldn't say somebody should be beat up exactly. Yeah, why? Well, 232 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:28.110 because they're human beings, they have intrinsic value, they're made in the image 233 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.990 of God and therefore they should be valued. Okay, well, now the 234 00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:35.190 atheist is not going to agree with that. That's what gives them all right. 235 00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:37.100 So we're do you? How do you get that's kind of what I'm 236 00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:41.259 asking is, how do I how do I give arguments for God's existence, 237 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.500 that it well, for the value, for the value of that child? 238 00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:48.899 What gives that child value? We're does an atheist typically start and how do 239 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.009 you lead them to what we know to be true, that human beings to 240 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:56.090 value because they're made in the image of a Holy God? Yeah, so, 241 00:15:56.210 --> 00:16:00.169 I mean I think most atheists, because I mean if most of my 242 00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:03.289 guests, would probably have more of like an evolutionary view of humanities. So 243 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:08.600 they would. They may say that higher forms have more value. Again, 244 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.080 I'm not saying it's consistent, but would say it they have a higher value 245 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:17.240 than other lower life forms. That way, therefore, you know abortion, 246 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.470 because you actually have secular pro life groups. Yeah, sure, problem is, 247 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:23.990 and I've talked with several them, the problem is they do have a 248 00:16:25.070 --> 00:16:27.629 hard time grounding it. They can point to natural law and they can point 249 00:16:27.669 --> 00:16:32.789 to these things that show we with it is a human being, we should 250 00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:34.500 have value, but they really a lot of times do have a hard time 251 00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:38.700 showing why do we have more value than, for example, puppy or a 252 00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.019 bear. So I can't really make that argument. I don't know why they 253 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:48.370 hold that. I've I've had these conversations and with them and a lot of 254 00:16:48.409 --> 00:16:53.129 the secular pro life don't necessarily know exactly how that's grounded. As far as 255 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.809 getting them to kind of our position is, therefore, you know, you'd 256 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:02.960 have to get more into their arguments for God's existence. So cosmological arguments like 257 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.200 the Oh, you know, origins of the universe, fine tuning of the 258 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.279 universe, the design, showing that it's we're not an accident, it didn't 259 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.039 just come about by chance, and showing that there's a purpose in a design 260 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.710 and a plan behind it and that kind of you know, is going to 261 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:21.109 show. If you can show God created the universe and the life didn't come 262 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:25.269 from nonliving material, then we do have value, we do have dignity and 263 00:17:25.509 --> 00:17:26.829 we're not our own okay, now let me ask you. So I'm in 264 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:32.859 front of an abortion clinic, I'm with an atheist mom and and I agree 265 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:34.299 with you. I totally agree with you. I think that is where you 266 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:38.539 have to start. Can we do that in five minutes or yeah, and 267 00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:42.180 it can. Can you give me an like the example of what you might 268 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:45.089 say that can lead them to that, that place? And what was saying? 269 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:49.930 If you want to play the do a little role? Yeah, yeah, 270 00:17:51.009 --> 00:17:52.970 that way. I know exactly how I would resk. Okay, it's 271 00:17:53.009 --> 00:17:56.930 it's not a baby, it it's a clump of cells. Okay, and 272 00:17:57.089 --> 00:18:02.359 and and look, you believe in God, I don't. So you know, 273 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.519 I'm not worried about where I'm going. I'm going to turn into dust, 274 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.799 you know, the worms are going to eat me. I there is 275 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.720 no such thing as heaven or hell. And and right now this baby's going 276 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.950 to destroy my life. And I'm here and I'm alive and I need I've 277 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.109 got plans. Yeah, yeah, they're there. There we go, so 278 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:22.190 I stay scenario. You got it. Yeah, I would say. You 279 00:18:22.309 --> 00:18:25.829 know what she says. You know, I don't believe in God and this 280 00:18:25.950 --> 00:18:29.660 baby's just a clump of cells. Well, if God doesn't exist, then 281 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:32.460 all you are is just a clump of cells. Would it be okay to 282 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.619 kill you, or would it be okay to kill one of your loved ones? 283 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.019 If all we are, if there is no god, if all it 284 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:41.809 is is nature, and if all we are as clumps of cells, well 285 00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:44.730 you wouldn't say it would be okay to kill you. Well, yeah, 286 00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:47.970 but I'm clumps of cells that think and know that I'm alive and you know 287 00:18:48.009 --> 00:18:51.769 I'm conscious and I'm breathing and okay. So why would it? Why? 288 00:18:51.890 --> 00:18:55.049 What? Why does why would that be morally relevant? Why does it matter 289 00:18:55.289 --> 00:19:00.599 something is conscious, at conscious in order to have value? What makes being 290 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:06.240 conscious look? Is it value? That's a good question. For example, 291 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.670 you just don't be ages. Yeah, it just depends how they might go. 292 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:17.589 You know, you could give an example of our rats conscious moll people 293 00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:18.630 going to say, well, yeah, at your well then our rats, 294 00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:22.630 persons, are rats people. Would it be wrong to kill rats if you 295 00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:27.579 have a rat infestation and you gasp the rats. You know, is that 296 00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:32.660 going to ben is that the same as murder? Right, we know intuitively, 297 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.700 even if the person doesn't acknowledge that God exists, we know at our 298 00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:41.130 conscience there's a difference between killing a baby and killing a rat. Now the 299 00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:44.089 distinction, I think that needs to be made with the pro life and pro 300 00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:48.890 choice position. I don't believe at the foundation. Now you do have some 301 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:52.690 that are going to argue this, but I think the vast majority the confusion 302 00:19:52.769 --> 00:19:56.319 is not is it okay to kill babies, because if you talk to a 303 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.440 lot of pro choice people, the issue is more the confusion is when does 304 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.319 life begin? Yeah, and you know this because the vast majority of pro 305 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.269 choice people are against abortion in the second and third try. Yes, that's 306 00:20:07.309 --> 00:20:10.950 true. Yeah, right. And so it's more of well, when does 307 00:20:11.029 --> 00:20:15.109 life begin? It's not the majority of people say, Hey, it's okay 308 00:20:15.150 --> 00:20:18.069 to kill babies. Yeah, right, because if that was a case, 309 00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:22.059 most of them would not be for our restricting abortions in the third of a 310 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.140 second. Yeah, you know, you know, it's funny. I mean 311 00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:29.539 I have conversations all the time with pro choice people in front of the abortion 312 00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:32.500 clinic. So these are probably some of the most I mean, I don't 313 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:36.569 know, but I'm thinking probably some of the most radical pro choice of come 314 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:38.210 pro abortion people that you can meet, because they're actually taking the step of 315 00:20:38.329 --> 00:20:41.690 being in front of an abortion clink to pose what we're doing it. Even 316 00:20:41.769 --> 00:20:45.130 with those people, when I ask them the question, it's like you far 317 00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:48.410 as when? When does life begin? When does life begin? They can 318 00:20:48.490 --> 00:20:52.079 tell you when life doesn't begin, but they can never really tell you when 319 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.880 life does begin. Right. So they'll say, well, it certainly not 320 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.039 in the first try, master, I mean, there's no doubt about that, 321 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:00.480 and probably not even in the second time. MSTER. Some of them, 322 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.869 some of them are are twenty weeks, some of them are twenty four 323 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:07.230 weeks, twenty two weeks. I've heard different, different numbers. I'm like, 324 00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:11.710 so I argued with one of them that we argued, but you know, 325 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:15.309 it's game as argument that. Hey, so I'm taking the position of 326 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:18.500 I know when life begins. You're taking position where you don't really know if 327 00:21:18.619 --> 00:21:22.900 that building over there, you know someone was about to wreck it with a 328 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:26.019 wrecking ball and I asked you, is there any living people in there? 329 00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:30.380 Like, have they checked it and you said, I don't know. Right 330 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:33.529 then, what did we like? Are On the side of well, if 331 00:21:33.569 --> 00:21:38.369 you don't know when life begins, why don't we just protect all potential lives 332 00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:42.130 and you can stand with me and we'll stand against abortion. Yeah, and 333 00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:45.009 which I don't know is the best. Best it is. Yeah, pro 334 00:21:45.170 --> 00:21:48.599 I remember when President Obama was asked, you know this, with Rick Warren, 335 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.039 when does life begin? And he swell, it's above my pay grade. 336 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.880 Yeah, well then, why would you be, for you know, 337 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.839 putting all these laws in to move restrictions on abortion if you could potentially be 338 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.190 killing the human being? Exactly? If you know? If you don't know, 339 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.349 don't shoot. Yeah, so there's yeah, there's like this win and 340 00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:10.109 out, throw it out sort of. But if the'reality one thing I would 341 00:22:10.109 --> 00:22:14.109 say, you know is in for your listeners. It is not a mystery 342 00:22:14.150 --> 00:22:18.500 when life begins. Yeah, biological fact. Right now, some pro choice, 343 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:22.220 some of the philosophers try and make a distinction between being a human being 344 00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:25.940 in a person. Yeah, and then you have to get into some of 345 00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:29.900 those arguments and show why. You know, though, there's no real and 346 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.170 moral, irrelevant difference. Yeah, but that life begins to conception. That's 347 00:22:33.289 --> 00:22:37.289 just we've known that for yeah, all the time. You I've had pro 348 00:22:37.369 --> 00:22:41.049 choice people say using science and they say, you know, science, science 349 00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:45.720 proves it. Life doesn't begin at conception, like really, because or that 350 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.319 personhood doesn't beginning. Science proves it. These babies aren't persons. That's that's 351 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.440 the argument. There's I was like, wait a minute, like person is 352 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.440 not really a scientific term, right, it's a philosophical term you're making. 353 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.710 I'm making a philosophical argument when I say human beings are intrinsically valuable and that 354 00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.589 that person in the womb, that baby in the women, is a person. 355 00:23:04.069 --> 00:23:07.430 You're also making a philosophical argument when you're saying it's not a person. 356 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:11.309 Yeah, and and you know you deal with a lot of that philosophical you 357 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.980 know stuff. You know you deal with those thoughts and so you know you 358 00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:19.059 guys already talked through some of that and how to talk to an atheist in 359 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:22.579 front of a an abortion clinic. But what are some of the, I 360 00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:26.809 guess, most relevant philosophical arguments when you're talking about abortion? I think you've 361 00:23:26.809 --> 00:23:30.569 already shared some of that, but even some of the I guess, higher 362 00:23:30.569 --> 00:23:34.450 arguments about abortion because when you get into talking about life begins at conception, 363 00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:38.970 I think most thinking pro choice people have sort of said yeah, life, 364 00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:42.079 of course it begins at conception. Even you've got some, some very prominent 365 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:48.240 pro choice advocates that say yeah, I'll grant you that, even with the 366 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.920 violinist argument. Share these like I'll grant you that, this is a person, 367 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.710 but does this person have the right to take over another person since body? 368 00:23:56.029 --> 00:23:57.789 So what are some of those higher arguments? Are At least some ways 369 00:23:57.869 --> 00:24:00.869 to combat some of those higher pro choice arguments, if you understand what I'm 370 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:03.269 saying? Yeah, I think so. So some of those arguments like you 371 00:24:03.349 --> 00:24:07.309 just mentioned, like the violinist argument, those are those are some of the 372 00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:11.140 harder ones to defeat because in most of the arguments, most of most of 373 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:15.500 the pro choice people, we're not talking in academy, but just most of 374 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.539 the people you're going to run into at the grocery store whatever, they're not 375 00:24:18.619 --> 00:24:22.140 aware of those kind of art yea, most it's most emotional or right, 376 00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:26.609 right, and they almost always beg the question as to when life begins, 377 00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:30.170 you know. But some of the higher level arguments, like the Judith Jervis 378 00:24:30.250 --> 00:24:33.170 Thompson's violinist arguments. They're hard because they grant that it's a human being. 379 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:37.569 Yeah, and so really what you need to show because with I think the 380 00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:41.119 the that particular violinist arguments trying to argue from analogy. We're trying to show 381 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.359 is really worth the analogies break down. Sure. So, for example, 382 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.599 with the violinist argument, it's fine. I'm doing a fifteen week course at 383 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.710 ours on our Sunday School Church on this issue. Okay, last week was 384 00:24:53.829 --> 00:24:57.230 this arguments? All right, yeah, we we just a podcast last week 385 00:24:57.230 --> 00:25:00.349 about this Argu yeah, really, really, it's not a question of when 386 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.789 life begins, but a question of when is that like valuable, because I 387 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.220 think they will grant us most of the time they will say it's alive at 388 00:25:07.299 --> 00:25:11.299 some level, but it's a lesser value. And I think for me that's 389 00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:15.180 what the higher level argument is is when does value when? When is value 390 00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:18.819 conferred upon that child? Yeah, so with with some of them, you 391 00:25:18.859 --> 00:25:21.099 know, we were just talking about the some of them would say, well, 392 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:25.769 because it's not conscious. So maybe what I would say is what makes 393 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:30.690 somebody a human being? What is it that makes someone valuable or makes someone 394 00:25:30.049 --> 00:25:33.450 a human being. And so you may get this thing like, well, 395 00:25:33.089 --> 00:25:38.279 it's it's conscience or it's has sentience, et Cetera. But again you have 396 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:44.960 things like rats or kangaroo's these things also have consciousness, but we wouldn't say 397 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.119 that their persons. What about people who are in Colemas, for example, 398 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.950 that don't have that? Are they still considered persons? And so I think 399 00:25:53.029 --> 00:26:00.829 it's trying to flush out their inconsistencies. If they're going to say human, 400 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.099 it's a human but it's not a person with value. It's really the onus, 401 00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:07.900 is not me, to disprove them. They have to give reasons as 402 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:12.619 to why it's morally relevant. What's the difference between a human being and a 403 00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:18.220 person and all these little, you know, things that they have, such 404 00:26:18.220 --> 00:26:22.490 as, you know, consciousness, etc. When you just apply them, 405 00:26:22.690 --> 00:26:26.210 it ends in it in absurdity. Somebody that's in a coma, can you 406 00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:30.170 kill them? Well, but then euthanasia, as we know, they are 407 00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:36.079 killing people like commas. Yeah, so, but there's a distinction there. 408 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.240 Most of the people that do the euthanasia they want to die. The baby 409 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:42.720 doesn't have that choice right either. Not Given them. Yes, so there's 410 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.430 a difference between people that just to they have this terminally ill disease, they 411 00:26:47.509 --> 00:26:52.230 don't want to live anymore. And you know somebody that you know. They're 412 00:26:52.230 --> 00:26:53.869 just pulling the plug and somebodys and even have a say. Yeah, and 413 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.869 even with that, you know, one of the distinctions also, you know, 414 00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:03.059 talk about the violinist argument. Yeah, it's not just withholding, it's 415 00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:07.940 actually actively murdering. Yeahs with abortion it's like, you know, you're slitting 416 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:11.700 the throat, you're not just unplugging from the violinist. Now with you euthanasia, 417 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:15.210 it is also not just passing, but it is an act of killing. 418 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:18.890 And so I mean, we can talk about some yeah, let's jump 419 00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:22.170 into that, because I didn't want to talk about the you know, primary 420 00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:26.049 focus is the issue of abortion, but I think these issues. I'm reading 421 00:27:26.089 --> 00:27:30.640 stuff, you know, from pro choice or pro life, sorry, sources 422 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.359 online talking about assistant suicide, youth and Asian that sort of thing. One 423 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.440 young lady, I don't know if you read this story. When young lady, 424 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.759 I think she was twenty three. Twenty three years old, I believe, 425 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.349 is in the Netherlands. It was somewhere across the pond there and twenty 426 00:27:45.390 --> 00:27:48.430 three years old. No, physical issues really going on, but she had 427 00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:53.190 extreme depression. She had been, I think, a sexually a victim of 428 00:27:53.269 --> 00:27:56.789 sexual molestation or something like that, and just dealing with this depression. Her 429 00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:03.940 psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, kind of three meads at it, counseling whatever, 430 00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:06.259 and I guess she'd been in some kind of counseling. Anyway, long 431 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.220 story short, they basically said, hey, listen, there's nothing else we 432 00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:12.410 can do for you. The best thing you could do probably is is assistant 433 00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:15.730 suicide. Yeah, it's like twenty three years old. They basically told her. 434 00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.369 The people are supposed to help her basically told her, sorry, there's 435 00:28:18.410 --> 00:28:22.450 no real help for you. Your life really is not worth living. I 436 00:28:22.490 --> 00:28:26.089 mean that to me. That's what they're telling yeah, and there's a story 437 00:28:26.170 --> 00:28:29.920 in Canada. A young man, I think thirty nine years old, or 438 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:32.640 maybe early, for he's not, you know, not terribly old, had 439 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.799 some some some illness where he needed ongoing treatment and whatever. I mean the 440 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.390 guy still functional, you know, he's not like completely like vegetable or whatever, 441 00:28:42.109 --> 00:28:47.589 still functional, but basically they were he had to have ongoing care in 442 00:28:47.789 --> 00:28:49.950 home care and they basically said, hey, listen, the money's run out 443 00:28:49.990 --> 00:28:53.470 for this thing and we really can't do anything else. This is probably your 444 00:28:53.470 --> 00:28:59.579 best option, which is Ethan, Asia or suicide. So, you know, 445 00:28:59.660 --> 00:29:03.140 their stories grieve me because what it seems to me is, as a 446 00:29:03.259 --> 00:29:06.819 society, the very thing that that US Christians have warned about for a long 447 00:29:06.859 --> 00:29:10.009 time, which is this whole assistant suicide, youth and Asia abortion thing, 448 00:29:10.569 --> 00:29:14.450 has stripped away the intrinsic value of human life. And now we're on the 449 00:29:14.809 --> 00:29:18.049 downward spiral where, you know, we're going to be putting people in old 450 00:29:18.089 --> 00:29:21.049 folks homes to death. We're going to be I mean, that's happened peoper. 451 00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:22.930 Yeah, keep it cheaper, because we're looking at the numbers and we're 452 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:27.640 looking at I mean, if you come from an atheistic, naturalistic mindset, 453 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:33.000 then human beings are nothing more than just evolved animals. That so how do 454 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.400 you, how do you tie these these issues in together? Euthanasia, assisted 455 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.789 suicide, abortion? Don't really want to talk about the death penalty. Think 456 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:45.390 that I do want to have that conversation. I think we're going to do 457 00:29:45.430 --> 00:29:48.230 a podcast about that because I think that's an important so yeah, but I 458 00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:51.069 think it is a separate issue because we're dealing with, you know, a 459 00:29:51.109 --> 00:29:53.220 guilty party, and there's some arguments to be made on both sides of for 460 00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:57.220 that. But just those three issues, using these Ethan Asia, assist suicide 461 00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:00.859 and abortion, how do these tie in together in your mind from a philosophical 462 00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:04.500 yeah, I mean I think a lot of it is because it is. 463 00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:08.970 It's it's viewed as more of this functionalist view of a human being rather the 464 00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:12.890 intrinsic value of a human yeah, so it's because, you know, these 465 00:30:12.930 --> 00:30:18.609 people are old, they can't offer anything, they can't contribute anything, therefore 466 00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.119 they don't have value. Yeah, same thing as kind of conferred on the 467 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.880 unborn right, is that they don't. They're just these parasites. They're not 468 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:32.960 offering anything, they're not helping, they're just sucking resources, and so it's 469 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.990 looked at more of like what can you do, rather than you're valuable for 470 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:40.789 who you are. Yeah, a lot of the arguments that go for youth 471 00:30:40.829 --> 00:30:45.230 and Asia and abortion really go hand in glove. Yeah, and it's because 472 00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.109 it's this idea of this worldview that, you know, we're just were molecules 473 00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:55.500 in motion, nothing outside of the box. And so Dr Geisler and Dr 474 00:30:55.619 --> 00:31:00.019 Turk wrote a really good book legislating morality, also, Dr Geisler, is 475 00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:03.849 Christian ethics that has whole chapters on these issues. But what they show on 476 00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:07.690 legislating morality was so many of these people, you know talk about in the 477 00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:12.609 in the Netherlands, where this is, you know, legal, who were 478 00:31:12.650 --> 00:31:15.089 going to do it. They didn't end up doing it. They were so 479 00:31:15.250 --> 00:31:18.279 glad they didn't. Yeah, it was a time of depression. It was 480 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.200 something that they fell into, but it passed. Yeah, you know, 481 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:27.039 these consequences is our eternal when you're talking convincing somebody, well, you know, 482 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.160 you might as well just, you know, kill yourself because it's not 483 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.430 going to get better. Yeah, that is you know, when the horse 484 00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:37.710 falls down and breaks the leg and you take it out back and shoot it. 485 00:31:37.910 --> 00:31:40.750 Yeah, we do with animals, right, don't do that with human 486 00:31:40.829 --> 00:31:44.910 beings. And it's because human beings are valuable and we would say, ultimately, 487 00:31:44.950 --> 00:31:48.779 as Christians, it's grounded in because we're made in the image of God. 488 00:31:48.940 --> 00:31:52.539 Yeah, you know, and most people, I can I think they 489 00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:56.220 know human beings are valuable. They may not know how to ground that exactly, 490 00:31:56.180 --> 00:32:00.140 but yeah, people, most people, if you ask, are humans 491 00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:02.009 more valuable than a cockroach. They're going to say, yeah, he was 492 00:32:02.049 --> 00:32:07.130 more in. What it shows is betrays to the atheist is they're inconsistent world 493 00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:10.730 view. Yeah, because if they were consistent with their worldview, we really 494 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:15.329 wouldn't be yeah, we're just molecules and motion. Yeah. Yeah, we 495 00:32:15.650 --> 00:32:19.359 do sink to the level of where human life really has then ceased to have 496 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:24.400 value and we are a society that is slatching towards all of these horrific really 497 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:30.910 forms of murder. Yeah, portion assisted suicide and and euthanasia. Yeah, 498 00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:32.630 eithering that that's true. That I mean. I think it is just from 499 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:37.750 observation, but just even conversations with the students and stuff. Do you see 500 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:43.750 that society is sort of going toward this downward spiral of human beings no longer 501 00:32:43.829 --> 00:32:47.259 have intrinsic value or just like animals? The you see that in conversations? 502 00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:51.819 It's a good question. See some of the polls that I've seen recently show 503 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:54.460 is actually a spite in. Okay, but hold to the pro life position. 504 00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:58.569 Yeah, so I get I think a lot of it is there is 505 00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:04.970 this confusion of when does life begin? I think if it really if we 506 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:08.890 were really seeing that, then these numbers of second third trimesters. People should 507 00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:12.920 be okay with it. Yeah, but most people aren't. So I almost 508 00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.960 see it as this view of natural law or natural theology where people see it's 509 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.039 a general revelation that even up their world views are inconsistent with it. We 510 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:29.029 know it's wrong to torture babies for fun or, you know, murder innocent 511 00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.230 human beings. We know it. Yeah, we know it. We suppressed 512 00:33:31.269 --> 00:33:35.829 it, Romans one says. We try and suppress that. Yeah, but 513 00:33:36.029 --> 00:33:37.470 we know it now. I think we can ever get rid of that, 514 00:33:38.349 --> 00:33:44.180 even if we sink to some pretty evil things. Yeah. So, okay, 515 00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.500 so a thought comes to mind. I mentioned we, mean Vickie, 516 00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:52.339 did a podcast and we mentioned the Judith Jarvis Thompson argument. The podcasts focus 517 00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:57.089 around because sort of my body, my choice in this self idolatry right, 518 00:33:57.210 --> 00:34:00.690 that that self is God and that God no longer enters into the equation. 519 00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:07.449 So you could it be with with euthanasia and with assistant suicide, because I 520 00:34:07.530 --> 00:34:10.760 hear when I talk to some pro choice people and they talk about sister suicide, 521 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.920 they talk about Ethan Asia, mainly about sister suicide, and the arguments 522 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.039 they use for that are like bodily autonomy arguments. Right, a person has 523 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.079 a right to have themselves put to death, right, and and so do 524 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:29.110 you see that sort as being a separation between the issue of abortion and assistant 525 00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:30.869 suicide and that sort of thing? You understand when them when? Yeah, 526 00:34:31.070 --> 00:34:34.710 you're saying, like with with that, is that they want their they want 527 00:34:34.750 --> 00:34:37.389 to control their own destiny. Right, yeah, they want to control their 528 00:34:37.389 --> 00:34:39.780 own destiny. But then you're saying, and I think the numbers definitely the 529 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:44.340 numbers beared out where you're seeing more and more people becoming prolife. Yeah, 530 00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:46.820 so there's sort of like even in within the pro choice people that we would 531 00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:50.539 kind of lump together with, you know, their pro abortion, the pro 532 00:34:50.659 --> 00:34:53.250 euthanasia, pross assistants suicide. There's kind of a divide there. Yeah, 533 00:34:53.409 --> 00:34:58.130 those people, so that more of them are seeing the inconsistencies and sort of 534 00:34:58.130 --> 00:35:00.690 the my body, my choice argument for abortion. Right, they can see 535 00:35:00.690 --> 00:35:05.210 the consistencies maybe with that for suicide, but before abortion their starting to say, 536 00:35:05.250 --> 00:35:07.960 okay, science is showing us this is a separate body, separate person. 537 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.239 You think that's sort of what's going on? Yeah, I think it 538 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.719 is, because, like with you, like thing with the abortion it's is 539 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.119 there's another person in play. Yeah, as to where euthanasia, it's just 540 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.960 them and it's, you know, this idea of this death with dignity, 541 00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:23.949 but in reality it's coward us. Yeah, really is cowardice. Okay, 542 00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:28.269 I mean they're you. How you don't know if God's going to heal you. 543 00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.309 You don't know what God's going to do through that with other people. 544 00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:35.860 Your body is not your own, your life is not. Yeah, it 545 00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:38.820 doesn't mean you have to go through extraordinary means to stay alive. You know, 546 00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:42.460 we got a friend who, you know, the mom's like in her 547 00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:46.420 s and you know, stage four, you know, renal failure and all 548 00:35:46.460 --> 00:35:50.650 these things. She's going to die. So obviously wouldn't say. You know, 549 00:35:50.849 --> 00:35:53.690 she starts to go in and, you know, resuscitated all that. 550 00:35:53.809 --> 00:35:59.409 That's that's that's not the same. But you know, it's this idea that, 551 00:35:59.769 --> 00:36:02.409 you know, it's my body, I can do what I want, 552 00:36:02.610 --> 00:36:06.360 my decision, and it's just not, you know, especially if you're a 553 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.239 Christian. That's yeah, definitely not the way it is. Yeah, you 554 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.239 know it is uncertain, it is unknown, you don't know what you're going 555 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.880 to get. You know it's but it's trusting in God. He Mall. 556 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.030 It may heal you, he may not, but he can use your story 557 00:36:20.269 --> 00:36:22.309 and you to bring other people to the Kingdom and at the end of the 558 00:36:22.349 --> 00:36:27.590 day, that is a Christian that's the goal. Yeah, right, and 559 00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:30.989 absolutely. Yeah, if you can talk about because I hear this all the 560 00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:37.900 time in all three of those areas, that but this prevents unbearable suffering and 561 00:36:38.179 --> 00:36:43.300 we would kill our dog. We take our dog andice when our dog is 562 00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:45.099 it took me a long time before I was able to do that, but 563 00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:49.010 we do do that, most of us do. Yeah, to prevent suffering. 564 00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:51.489 So, and that argument is used in all three of those cases, 565 00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:55.849 youth the nation, abortion and and assisted suicide. Is there is unbearable suffering, 566 00:36:57.250 --> 00:37:00.010 suffering to the mother. In the case of abortion, she is going 567 00:37:00.090 --> 00:37:01.840 to suffer or sometimes, in the case of the baby, the baby is 568 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.559 going to be born with some hert horrific disease that it's only going to cause 569 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.000 suffering their entire life. So, biblically, can you talk to that? 570 00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.920 How do you dismantle that? Well, like with that that example of will 571 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.349 the baby is going to be born and it's going to have these particular physical 572 00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:21.389 problems. I would say you you would treat that the same way you would 573 00:37:21.389 --> 00:37:24.190 as if a todd or was in a terrible car accident and and they were 574 00:37:24.349 --> 00:37:29.190 going to, you know, die soon. You wouldn't get a pillow, 575 00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:31.900 wouldn't smother it or take it up back and shoot it. You offer comfort 576 00:37:32.019 --> 00:37:36.860 and love and hope, but you know, as it as it as the 577 00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:40.860 baby passes away. As far as being against it because of the unbearable suffering, 578 00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:45.769 etc. Well, I mean, you know, nobody wants to suffer, 579 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:49.969 but good things can happen through our suffering. Look at the cross, 580 00:37:50.170 --> 00:37:53.530 look at Jesus. Yeah, good things can happen through the suffering and it 581 00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:59.719 is a testimony of God working in us, through us and with other people. 582 00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:02.480 The reason we don't take human beings out back and shoot them like an 583 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:07.199 animal or take them to the bed and euthanize them like a dog is because 584 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.119 of that. We're not animals. Were he hands different? That's why there's 585 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:17.110 a distinction there right treat we don't treat humans like dogs. Yes, yeah, 586 00:38:17.110 --> 00:38:22.070 and that's, you know, our our main go I was actually again 587 00:38:22.150 --> 00:38:27.420 talking to one of the pro choice ladies and just sharing with her. You 588 00:38:27.460 --> 00:38:29.699 know our goal is, we want to say, babies in front of you. 589 00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:32.179 A portion we're there to speak on behalf of those babies. But another 590 00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:37.940 sort of secondary, maybe not secondary, I don't know, just maybe in 591 00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:44.409 overarching sort of reason why we're out there is to protect and guard the value 592 00:38:44.449 --> 00:38:46.530 of human life. You know, I sort of see it as in my 593 00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:51.010 city there's dirty people that are going to die and I know where it's going 594 00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:53.969 to happen, I know when it's going to happen and in order to guard 595 00:38:54.050 --> 00:38:58.920 those individuals, but also to guard this thing called the sanctity of human life 596 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.039 or the intrinsic value of human life. If that's happening in to my city 597 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.360 and I don't do something about it, then I'm sort of I'm sort of 598 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.440 part of the problem. Not that I don't mean that as condemnation for people 599 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.150 that are not involved in what I'm doing. I'm not saying what I'm doing 600 00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:14.230 is the most important, although I think it might be, but I think 601 00:39:14.230 --> 00:39:15.590 it's very important. Yeah, but I mean when we, you know, 602 00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:19.710 it ties into a lot when we when we talk about the intrinsic value of 603 00:39:19.750 --> 00:39:23.380 human life and then we really do nothing, we turn a blind eye to 604 00:39:23.619 --> 00:39:28.420 what's going on. It's it's sort of chips away at that and we sort 605 00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:31.099 of add to this idea that human life maybe doesn't have any value. You 606 00:39:31.179 --> 00:39:36.420 Look, even the Christians don't care so much, right, and so you 607 00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:38.329 know, I think one of the things that we do, and with the 608 00:39:38.409 --> 00:39:40.849 pro choice lady, I told her, listen, you're here and I think 609 00:39:40.849 --> 00:39:44.849 you're here to guard something that to use, very precious, which is a 610 00:39:44.889 --> 00:39:46.809 woman's right to choose. Now, from my perspective it's a woman's right to 611 00:39:46.849 --> 00:39:50.929 choose to kill her child, right, but I understand your guarden something that's 612 00:39:50.929 --> 00:39:53.559 precious to you, but understand that we're also trying to guard something that's precious 613 00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:58.400 to us, those individual babies, but also the sanctity of human life. 614 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.480 Can you speak to from, you know, an apologetics, Biblical and philosophical 615 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:09.030 perspective, kind of how we, as believers, guard human the sanctity of 616 00:40:09.070 --> 00:40:15.429 human life, and how we uphold that value so that society, secular society 617 00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:20.070 and whatever religious society, looks and says, okay, there's something to what 618 00:40:20.150 --> 00:40:23.659 these Christians are saying. How do how do we give those good philosophical arguments, 619 00:40:23.699 --> 00:40:28.099 biblical arguments and maintain that. Yeah, I mean I think it goes 620 00:40:28.219 --> 00:40:35.019 back to showing when life begins, because life begins a conception. We're human 621 00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:37.809 beings. Were not, you know, other than that, and because human 622 00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:42.769 beings. I mean it's going to go right back to really special revelation. 623 00:40:43.210 --> 00:40:45.409 Okay, how do we know we're different than pandas and bear? Yeah, 624 00:40:45.409 --> 00:40:49.289 I do. We have more value. Well, I'm not going to find 625 00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:51.800 that in nature, other than if I was to look. Maybe it's some 626 00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:53.480 of these like well, you know, we can think, can we can 627 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:59.159 do more? Yeah, but it needs to be specially revealed to us that 628 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.309 we have souls, we we have eternal life if we believe in Jesus. 629 00:41:05.389 --> 00:41:07.670 Not even angels, you know, have these things. They're not made in 630 00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:10.550 the image of God. People are made in the image of God. Yeah, 631 00:41:10.750 --> 00:41:15.869 and so we just deduce that basically through a proper world view, which 632 00:41:15.909 --> 00:41:19.940 is a Christian world view, and know that we have dignity, we have 633 00:41:20.099 --> 00:41:23.699 value, we are made in the image of God because the Bible is true. 634 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.739 It can be shown to be true because Jesus rose from the dead. 635 00:41:29.019 --> 00:41:31.619 There's good arguments to believe Jesus rose from the dead, good arguments to believe 636 00:41:31.659 --> 00:41:37.130 that God created the universe. And so if Jesus is God, whatever Jesus 637 00:41:37.210 --> 00:41:40.289 teaches is true. Jesus teaches, you know, man is made in the 638 00:41:40.329 --> 00:41:47.719 image of God. Therefore humans have spiritiual intrinsic value. Yeah, so when 639 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:52.360 you're dealing with I mean, ultimately to me it does has come back around 640 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.559 to the Gospel. Yeah, it comes back around to what God did on 641 00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:00.719 behalf of human beings. You know, I'm sort of you know, I 642 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.469 know people that are presubsiditional apologists and like take a hard line approach on that 643 00:42:05.510 --> 00:42:07.989 stuff and if you're making arguments for the existence of God, your sort outside 644 00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:13.630 the the boundaries there, and I'm sort of I'm almost that. Actually, 645 00:42:14.110 --> 00:42:15.460 then I'm not that, you know, because I make argument being this. 646 00:42:15.739 --> 00:42:20.099 Yeah, I don't think I will be, because I think actually the scripture 647 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:24.059 gives us good reason to argue from creation that there's a god on all these 648 00:42:24.219 --> 00:42:29.940 all these other things. But it really does come back down to sharing from 649 00:42:30.010 --> 00:42:35.010 the truth of God's Word and and that point that you made, and I 650 00:42:35.170 --> 00:42:37.329 probably ask this with with but as this younging. If you know who Jason 651 00:42:37.369 --> 00:42:42.610 Himnez is, but we've talked about you know he's apologize. Guide does a 652 00:42:42.650 --> 00:42:45.119 lot of apologetic stuff and and we've talked about it. Vicky and I talked 653 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.559 about this image of God thing like this, this this idea that human beings 654 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.079 are made in the image of God, which I think it ultimately comes back 655 00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:58.909 to. And then we see, of course, Jesus coming and and really 656 00:42:58.949 --> 00:43:01.070 showing you sort of the value of what it is to be made in the 657 00:43:01.110 --> 00:43:05.469 image of God by laying his life down to redeem those who remain the image 658 00:43:05.469 --> 00:43:07.590 of God. Jesus didn't die for angels or he didn't die for dogs or 659 00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:10.750 cats, he didn't die for you know, whatever he did. He died 660 00:43:10.789 --> 00:43:15.539 for human beings. But if you could real quick, because I don't know 661 00:43:15.579 --> 00:43:20.019 if there's any like perfect definition for this, but just give me an idea 662 00:43:20.059 --> 00:43:22.780 of what you think the Bible teaches about being made in the image of God, 663 00:43:23.139 --> 00:43:27.650 what that what that means, how we wrap our minds around that concept. 664 00:43:27.690 --> 00:43:29.650 So, yeah, that's a good question and you know, I don't 665 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:31.250 know if there is a single answer, because you have a lot of theologians 666 00:43:31.329 --> 00:43:35.650 that will debate that exactly what it means. I think you can know some 667 00:43:35.769 --> 00:43:38.369 things that it's not. Yeah, it doesn't mean physically. Okay, because, 668 00:43:40.090 --> 00:43:43.840 let's see, John Four hundred and twenty four. You know, God 669 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.320 is spirit. Those who worshiping must worshipman, Spirit and truth. But thirty 670 00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:51.840 nine, a spirit does not have flesh and blood. You know, you 671 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.639 see, I have so. Therefore, you know, if God is a 672 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:57.550 spirit, Spirit still off flesh and blood. God is in that flesh. 673 00:43:57.670 --> 00:44:00.230 Yeah, sure, Jesus, human nature, etc. But yeah, so 674 00:44:00.349 --> 00:44:04.949 God is not a physical being. I think what you could say is is 675 00:44:05.110 --> 00:44:08.150 it's some of the things we know it is. We have the ability to 676 00:44:08.309 --> 00:44:12.340 think, we have the ability to be rational, we have the ability to 677 00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:15.420 ponder things. The meaning of life. Why are we here? Where do 678 00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:21.019 we go when we die? Is Certain, you know, propositions, true 679 00:44:21.019 --> 00:44:22.940 or false? We can debate those things. It seems to be one of 680 00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:27.449 the you know, the big distinction between US and other animals, or some 681 00:44:27.610 --> 00:44:31.650 intelligence and some other animals. But not where you're seeing the artwork, prayer, 682 00:44:32.210 --> 00:44:37.769 meditation, writing, books, music, seems to be something, you 683 00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:44.079 know, in the in the rational soul, separates us from other yeah, 684 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:49.920 you think creativity has into that, and God is obviously creative. Yeah, 685 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.670 you see all he's aid thought just popped in the mind like man. What 686 00:44:52.789 --> 00:44:57.150 you're saying, this is like creativity, is the the ability to invent new 687 00:44:57.269 --> 00:45:00.150 things and the CO come up with new concepts and ideas and in art and 688 00:45:00.230 --> 00:45:04.949 all those things. Because to me that is a that is a deep question. 689 00:45:05.429 --> 00:45:08.059 It's a question I think we as Christians need to have best answer we 690 00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:12.260 can. Yeah, but also to ponder, because I think it's you know, 691 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:14.940 it's deep in the sense that it calls us to self reflect. What 692 00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:16.460 does it mean mean for me to be made in the image of God? 693 00:45:16.699 --> 00:45:21.059 Right, and and what does that entail? If I made in the image 694 00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:23.570 of God, how does that how am I to live? You made in 695 00:45:23.570 --> 00:45:28.210 the image of God and you got groups like Mormon that go really wrong on 696 00:45:28.369 --> 00:45:30.769 that and end up with God who is a physical being. We are not 697 00:45:30.929 --> 00:45:35.050 only vexed our view of them, but also effects of you of who God 698 00:45:35.210 --> 00:45:37.760 is. Yeah, it's an important question, for sure. Yeah, it 699 00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:44.400 related to that. Would you say that that is the absolute basic truth of 700 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:47.519 what gives us value, is the fact that we are made in the image 701 00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.349 of God? Would that be the verse? Yeah, I mean, I 702 00:45:51.469 --> 00:45:53.110 don't see. I don't see the way around it. I mean, I 703 00:45:53.230 --> 00:45:57.030 know how to offer. I know how to debate with it. You know, 704 00:45:57.670 --> 00:46:01.309 with an atheist you use using kind of natural law. But as far 705 00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:06.780 as getting down to the grounding is to well, why are human beings more 706 00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:09.340 special than other creatures? I don't see how you get out of it other 707 00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:12.579 than we're made in the image of God. Right, right, and that 708 00:46:12.619 --> 00:46:15.179 Christian world view is true, you know. And and what something else in 709 00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:19.090 one of you said about what is the meaning in life? So so, 710 00:46:19.409 --> 00:46:21.969 another way of saying that. What is our purpose? And does the Bible 711 00:46:22.010 --> 00:46:24.409 address that? What is our purpose? A general purpose? We all have 712 00:46:24.889 --> 00:46:30.809 specific purposes, but what is our general purpose biblically, because I think that 713 00:46:30.050 --> 00:46:34.679 is related very much to what we're discussing. It is it's to know him, 714 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.679 no, Jesus, and to make him known. Yeah, that's that 715 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.840 is the whole purpose of life, being united to Christ. You know, 716 00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.679 when we love somebody, to love somebody is to will the best for that 717 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.869 person. If I love Daniel, the best for Daniel is what united to 718 00:46:49.909 --> 00:46:52.429 Jesus Christ. Right, if I love my Muslim neighbor, what's the best 719 00:46:52.469 --> 00:46:57.070 thing I can do? It is not a firm them and hey, whatever 720 00:46:57.110 --> 00:47:00.429 I believe is great. That is hating, right. Yeah, best thing 721 00:47:00.469 --> 00:47:04.460 I could do to love him, to share the gospel my pro choice friend. 722 00:47:04.780 --> 00:47:07.179 Right, what's the best thing I can do? See Her united to 723 00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:12.420 Jesus Christ. Yeah, out, abortion is going to cause pain suffering. 724 00:47:13.460 --> 00:47:15.849 You know, she's gonna have a hard time with that the rest of her 725 00:47:15.929 --> 00:47:19.050 life. Right, and the baby will end up dead. Yeah, you 726 00:47:19.170 --> 00:47:21.929 know. So, if I love them, the best thing I can do 727 00:47:22.130 --> 00:47:25.730 introduced her to Jesus Christ, who can heal her and, yeah, and 728 00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:30.039 raise from the dead. Amen. That's that's good. Well, I mean, 729 00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:34.559 I think with that man, I think we'll wrap this this thing up, 730 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.719 if you're cool with that. If he don't know if he had anything 731 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.519 else you wanted to Oh maybe just real quick. The Life House. Me 732 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:42.920 and my wife are okay. Yeah, Life Aus. It's a rock. 733 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.510 He'll you know. We don't making any money off of it or anything, 734 00:47:46.590 --> 00:47:51.710 but it's a place. I think it holds about five beds for women who 735 00:47:51.750 --> 00:47:55.469 were in crisis pregnancy issue. So if you guys, you know anybody out 736 00:47:55.469 --> 00:48:00.659 there listening, if you run across the woman or whatever that is pregnant in 737 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:05.699 is need of housing in that you know, contact of Life House. Okay, 738 00:48:05.860 --> 00:48:07.780 Ron, it's the Rocciola lifehouse. Yeah, and rock you. What 739 00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:12.139 age? Is there in age specification on how young and how well they're so 740 00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:15.530 nope, okay, no, we can take teenagers and sometimes it's a, 741 00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:17.730 you know, best situation. And how do people get in touch with you? 742 00:48:19.289 --> 00:48:23.610 Yeah, if you go to Devon or Melissa PLU at Rashio Christie are 743 00:48:24.090 --> 00:48:28.559 page, will pull right up. Okay, and look at our youtube page, 744 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.360 Rashoe, Christie, winthrop, and all of our talks that we do 745 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.840 their on online. Okay, cool. And you guys do a podcast to 746 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.000 you said, yeah, theology matters with the polues. been doing that for 747 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:42.869 about eight years and now, okay, theology matters with the police. I'll 748 00:48:42.909 --> 00:48:45.269 do my best to how to put a link to all this stuff, sure 749 00:48:45.469 --> 00:48:49.030 in the in the show notes on the really thank you know. Thank you, 750 00:48:49.110 --> 00:48:52.150 guys. You guys are out here doing doing the heavy lifting. By 751 00:48:52.230 --> 00:48:55.980 the grace of God, relates some privilege. Vilege. Just do a great, 752 00:48:57.019 --> 00:49:00.219 great one. You think you would. You'd feel qualified and the you'd 753 00:49:00.260 --> 00:49:02.500 beat more than qualified to come back at some point and talk about the issue 754 00:49:02.539 --> 00:49:07.219 of the death penalty. That's something you pondered. Oh Yeah, because you're 755 00:49:07.219 --> 00:49:09.730 always accused of being a hypocrite. Sure, yeah, I'd like to talk 756 00:49:09.769 --> 00:49:13.849 about that. You can't get into that on this on this episode. Yeah, 757 00:49:13.849 --> 00:49:15.730 I mean, Oh man, okay, yeah, we'll do that in 758 00:49:15.769 --> 00:49:19.130 the common weeks months. But yeah, so we appreciate all those who have 759 00:49:19.329 --> 00:49:22.409 listened in it and we appreciate you joining in with us. Appreciate you, 760 00:49:22.530 --> 00:49:24.280 Devin, coming for you know how to get in touch with us if you've 761 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:27.519 listened to the PODCAST, but I'll mention it again. You can get in 762 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.039 touch with me, D parks, at cities for Life Dot orgcom cities for 763 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:36.519 the number four, lifecom. You get touched with Vicki vcassi, org at 764 00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:39.469 cities for lifecom. Our website is Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org. 765 00:49:39.989 --> 00:49:44.630 And then we have again, as we mentioned often, national website to help 766 00:49:44.750 --> 00:49:47.309 just chant, train and equip sidewall counselors, because that's I think that's that's 767 00:49:47.349 --> 00:49:50.670 our calling, that's what we do. I think we do it pretty well, 768 00:49:50.989 --> 00:49:55.019 and that is www dot sidewalks, the number for lifecom, and that's 769 00:49:55.019 --> 00:49:58.900 just an equipping website. So you can get on there and get some information 770 00:49:58.940 --> 00:50:02.699 about sidewall counseling. Also send us some some questions, maybe some things that 771 00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:07.010 you some jet suggestions, things we could do better on the podcast, questions 772 00:50:07.090 --> 00:50:10.369 that we can answer, try to answer guests that maybe we can have on 773 00:50:10.969 --> 00:50:15.090 and and we'd love to hear from you guys on that end. But other 774 00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:20.690 than that, we appreciate you listening. And God, lets use mil use 775 00:50:20.889 --> 00:50:39.389 me, give me, give me, it will cost me my life, 776 00:50:43.869 --> 00:50:45.710 but not things too prescious inside