Euthanasia, Assisted Suicide, and Abortion - A Conversation With Apologist Devin Pellew for Ratio Christi

WEBVTT100:00:00.600 --> 00:00:06.440I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me Lord.200:00:06.919 --> 00:00:10.630I welcome to the Gospel Center prolife podcast and this episode we're going300:00:10.630 --> 00:00:14.269to do an interview with Devin Palufrom Rassio Christie ministries. We're going to400:00:14.310 --> 00:00:17.870talk about the issue of abortion,we're going to talk about euthanasia, assisted500:00:17.949 --> 00:00:21.109suicide and what it means to bemade in the image of God. Stay600:00:21.190 --> 00:00:34.579tuned. I felt show passish touchyour welcome to the Gospel Center pro life700:00:34.619 --> 00:00:39.530podcast. We have with us todayDevin Palu with Rassio Christie ministries. Him800:00:39.570 --> 00:00:43.170and his wife or at went throughuniversity and other college campuses doing ministry there.900:00:43.369 --> 00:00:45.850Just share what quick what you guysdo and a little bit about your1000:00:45.890 --> 00:00:49.929ministry. Yeah, so the groupwhere with again is ratio Christie, which1100:00:49.929 --> 00:00:53.159is Latin for the reason for Christ. I'm sure a lot of the people1200:00:53.640 --> 00:00:57.920that listen to this podcast may beaware of apologetics, but maybe for those1300:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.880who are not, apologetics is justgiving an answer or giving reasons why you1400:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.510hold the position that you hold.And so a lot of different campus ministries1500:01:07.549 --> 00:01:11.549focus on a lot of different areas. That are they're all needed and they're1600:01:11.590 --> 00:01:18.579good to have but our area isprimarily apologetics. So we do weekly meetings1700:01:18.700 --> 00:01:23.180where each semester we do a differenttheme. This semester is the Bible.1800:01:23.299 --> 00:01:25.540How do you know it's true?How did we get it? How is1900:01:25.540 --> 00:01:30.459it translated? So we're at winthropuniversity. We also do some classes at2000:01:30.819 --> 00:01:34.969York Tech Community College. Okay,tonight we kick off our high school,2100:01:34.329 --> 00:01:40.569which is Rasho Christie, college prep, and that gets called high schoolers ready2200:01:40.650 --> 00:01:44.609for college. You'll be prepared.In addition to that, we're also able2300:01:44.689 --> 00:01:49.200to lead a professor's group of someamazing Christian professors on the campus of winthrop2400:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.359who also want to know and studyapologetics. Normally, this time of the2500:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.640day I'm actually doing our own podcast. Okay, what you matters and start2600:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.040with it to lose. No,it's a it's good to be here.2700:02:01.150 --> 00:02:05.670And then, yeah, so youcan check out our youtube page, Rasho2800:02:05.670 --> 00:02:07.550Christie winthrop universe. Okay, yeah, cool, yeah, we'll make sure2900:02:07.550 --> 00:02:10.830and put that in the in thenotes on the podcast, of guess can.3000:02:10.990 --> 00:02:15.189So people can who are listening canconnect with you, guys. So3100:02:15.389 --> 00:02:19.539I wanted you to come because youknow we've ministered before at the abortion clinic.3200:02:19.620 --> 00:02:22.659That's primarily what we do as aministry, Vicki and on, and3300:02:23.060 --> 00:02:25.979cities for life, and then youguys some years back with forty days for3400:02:27.099 --> 00:02:29.219life, and you'd come out andyou brought some groups out and we just3500:02:29.340 --> 00:02:31.449had the honor to be able tominister alongside you guys, and Y'all have3600:02:31.610 --> 00:02:36.370been sort of handinhand with what we'vebeen doing a cities for life since I3700:02:36.449 --> 00:02:38.370think cities for life began. Soit's just a blessing to know you guys3800:02:38.689 --> 00:02:42.449and I know you've got, youknow, this philosophical mind, so I3900:02:42.530 --> 00:02:46.360wanted to kind of mine your philosophicalmind. How about that? And I4000:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.840wanted to talk about as I sentyou, you know, a few questions.4100:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.560Of course, talking about the issueof abortion. That's what this podcast4200:02:52.560 --> 00:02:53.919is about, talking about it,the issue of abortion in light of the4300:02:54.000 --> 00:02:59.150Gospel. But I think these otherissues that I mentioned to you about youth4400:02:59.189 --> 00:03:02.270and Asia and assisted suicide sort of, I mean definitely tie into this this4500:03:02.509 --> 00:03:07.069issue of abortion. Will Get tothose issues, but just just to ask4600:03:07.110 --> 00:03:09.669you from your experience, you sentme a video of a young man who4700:03:10.229 --> 00:03:15.819was a student at went through it, who came initially was for abortion.4800:03:15.020 --> 00:03:19.979He was pro choice and an abortionwas an okay thing. And you'd talked4900:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.699with him and had some conversations withhim and he actually changed his position on5000:03:23.780 --> 00:03:28.050the issue of abortion and now he'sprolife. Right, he say he's he's5100:03:28.050 --> 00:03:31.210against abortion. So what are someof those? I guess I was first5200:03:31.250 --> 00:03:36.050ask some of those challenges when you'retalking to people from a Biblical and a5300:03:36.090 --> 00:03:39.449philosophical perspective about the issue of alife, about abortion. What are some5400:03:39.490 --> 00:03:44.240of the challenges that you found withstudents? Yeah, you know, one5500:03:44.280 --> 00:03:46.960of the things we do when weare at the campus. You know,5600:03:46.039 --> 00:03:52.120where to a secular university. Soa lot of the students that come they5700:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.909may have been brought up in thechurch and so they've heard a lot of5800:03:55.030 --> 00:03:59.270the scriptures, you know, Jeremiah, you formed me, the womb,5900:03:59.310 --> 00:04:03.710etc. But they don't really knowoutside of that. What are some good6000:04:03.870 --> 00:04:08.509reasons to think, you know,life begins at conception, or good reasons6100:04:08.590 --> 00:04:12.620to think that abortion is wrong?So I think just giving them some of6200:04:12.659 --> 00:04:16.300these answers, some of the biologicalanswers, philosophical answers, showing them that6300:04:16.379 --> 00:04:20.100life begins at conception, and thenkind of going through a lot of the6400:04:20.180 --> 00:04:26.370pro choice objections. I think that'sit's it's really key and vital because they6500:04:26.490 --> 00:04:30.209need to know they're getting an onslaughtof all these particular objections that are coming.6600:04:30.250 --> 00:04:33.250Yeah, and most of the objections, as you know, they just6700:04:33.410 --> 00:04:38.089assume that the unborn is not ahuman being. Sure. So what we6800:04:38.250 --> 00:04:42.480try and do is keep laser focusedon that question of what is the unborn6900:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.319and then when all these objections come, just kind of walk them through how7000:04:46.360 --> 00:04:48.720to do that. Yeah, sodo you find that there's sort of,7100:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.350I don't like, a wall becausethey were raising the church and then they're7200:04:53.350 --> 00:04:57.509exposed to the university setting, inthe university setting, in a lot of7300:04:57.629 --> 00:05:01.269university settings at least, it's almosteverything that's contrary to what they learned in7400:05:01.350 --> 00:05:04.589church? Do you find that theysort of, with their confidence in their7500:05:04.750 --> 00:05:09.220in their university professors, sort ofput up a wall against any sort of7600:05:09.259 --> 00:05:13.500Biblical truth and then you find thata barrier between even talking about pro life?7700:05:14.139 --> 00:05:15.300Yeah, yeah, I mean sometimes, you know, you have a7800:05:15.339 --> 00:05:19.660couple of different scenarios with students.Some of them, you know, they7900:05:19.980 --> 00:05:23.970grow up in the church. Theyand and this is not to bash the8000:05:24.050 --> 00:05:27.610church. I love the church,or Etra, but they go to VBS,8100:05:27.689 --> 00:05:30.889they go to Sunday morning, theygo to Sunday night and they think,8200:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.170because they've had a little bit ofanswers in Genesis, that they know8300:05:33.290 --> 00:05:38.240apologetic. Yeah, and then theyget to the university and they get creamed.8400:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.000Yeah, as long as it's assumedthat the Bible's the word of God8500:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.560and it's assumed there's a Christian worldview, they do okay, but the university8600:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.949just doesn't share those particular assumptions.And so what a lot hat with.8700:05:50.110 --> 00:05:55.550A lot of times what happens isthey just end up having a lot of8800:05:55.629 --> 00:05:58.629questions about how do I know theBible's true? How do I know God8900:05:58.790 --> 00:06:01.670even exists? They go home,they talk to their parents. Parents think,9000:06:01.709 --> 00:06:04.300well, you know, you talkedto the pastor, because that's kind9100:06:04.339 --> 00:06:08.980of his job, right, andso you know they're the pastor's getting hit9200:06:09.060 --> 00:06:13.420with all these objections from somebody likea Richard Dowkins or Harris or these guys9300:06:13.459 --> 00:06:16.939that are the new atheists and theydon't know how to respond because seminary didn't9400:06:16.939 --> 00:06:19.529really teach them that. Yeah,and so it's kind of this well you9500:06:19.649 --> 00:06:24.930just have to have faith, kindof a thing which most students know Rightley,9600:06:24.970 --> 00:06:27.689it's really not a good answer.Yeah, and so they do build9700:06:27.689 --> 00:06:32.000up this wall almost as though,you know, church and Sunday school.9800:06:32.000 --> 00:06:36.279That's one thing on Sundays, butthings like science, biology, philosophy,9900:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.959that's what we do the rest ofthe week. Right. So it's almost10000:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.639these two separate categories. So whenyou get into the issue of abortion,10100:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.509it's almost like they put this intothe category of the science and so well,10200:06:47.550 --> 00:06:50.709maybe my faith, my faith,would say you shouldn't have an abortion,10300:06:51.509 --> 00:06:56.069but you know, through science andbiology and that, you know they're10400:06:56.069 --> 00:06:59.550going to come to a different conclusion. They don't know how to harmonize those10500:06:59.670 --> 00:07:01.459tools that God's give. Yeah,sure. So what are some of the10600:07:01.540 --> 00:07:04.420ways that you, because I knowyou'd guess, do more than just trying10700:07:04.420 --> 00:07:10.300to convince people to you believe theBible and then believe that life begins a10800:07:10.339 --> 00:07:13.980conception, you're actually you not justtrying to convince people, you're trying to10900:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.410shure up those who already believe thosethings, but give them good reasons and11000:07:16.569 --> 00:07:21.610good answers to to give to thosewho in there, you know, their11100:07:21.649 --> 00:07:26.050peers that would ask. So whatare some of the things you encourage students11200:07:26.129 --> 00:07:28.970with? The Hey is, thisis why we're pro life. Is Christians,11300:07:29.009 --> 00:07:30.360and what are some of the thingsthat you that you help them to11400:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.480shure up their their faith with?So, Greg Cokel, I'm sure you11500:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.839you know Greg Cocol's ministry standard reason, he wrote a really good book called11600:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.800tactics, and so in this booktactics, he's really teaching how to ask11700:07:43.079 --> 00:07:46.829question. Okay. And so,for example, when I'm talking, I11800:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.149remember talking to his student and youknow, a lot of them would say11900:07:50.189 --> 00:07:54.790that they are Christians but would fallon this pro choice side, and so12000:07:55.029 --> 00:07:57.750just question. So I remember askingthis young man. He's saying, well,12100:07:57.790 --> 00:08:01.500I'm pro choice and I said,well, choice to do? What?12200:08:01.740 --> 00:08:03.579What is it that you believe womenshould have choice to do? Should12300:08:03.579 --> 00:08:07.899have a choice to have an abortion? Nash, well, what is an12400:08:07.939 --> 00:08:11.339abortion? And it's almost like whenI ask that, the light went on12500:08:11.500 --> 00:08:13.689and he realized, Oh, yeah, it's Id because you just you hear12600:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.209the terms, you use the terms, but when you really think, well,12700:08:16.329 --> 00:08:20.649what is an abortion? Yeah,then it's almost like the light turned12800:08:20.649 --> 00:08:24.850on and he saw that's all Ihad to do with them. So that's12900:08:24.889 --> 00:08:28.519one example. Another example is justreally making them define their terms. So13000:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.720another student would say, well,abortion is a termination of a pregnancy,13100:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.159but you know, when my wifegave birth to our little girl, Aliana13200:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.110shameless plugged me. Yeah, I'lllearned men that pregnancy was terminated, sure,13300:08:43.230 --> 00:08:45.710but her life wasn't terminated. Yeah, so it's more than just a13400:08:45.710 --> 00:08:52.590termination of a pregnancy. So it'sreally making them hone in on the words13500:08:52.629 --> 00:08:56.019that are used. What exactly ismeant? Or sometimes, when more example,13600:08:56.059 --> 00:08:58.379a student might say, well,I personally would never have an abortion,13700:09:00.139 --> 00:09:03.100but I wouldn't try to force mymorality on others. So I may13800:09:03.179 --> 00:09:05.779ask, well, why wouldn't youpersonally have an abortion? Well, because13900:09:05.779 --> 00:09:09.419I believe it kills a baby.Yeah, well, if you believe it14000:09:09.460 --> 00:09:11.649kills a baby, why would yoube okay with others having the choice to14100:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.049kill a baby? Yeah, andthen, you know, just some of14200:09:15.129 --> 00:09:16.649those questions. I think they justhaven't thought through. It's a lot of14300:09:18.129 --> 00:09:22.370slogans within the abortion argument and whenyou really drill down and make them think14400:09:22.490 --> 00:09:26.360through it, they can see theissues. Yeah, yeah, Vicky,14500:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.399we did. We've done some podcastabout week, sort of tackled the pro14600:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480choice arguments for abortion and we dealwith some of the biblical pro choice arguments.14700:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.470I don't know if you've heard,Devin, the numbers shout. I14800:09:39.590 --> 00:09:41.429know you have the numbers. ChapterFive, passage where, you know,14900:09:41.509 --> 00:09:45.590priests is to take some dust offthe the tabernacle floor. Give it.15000:09:45.750 --> 00:09:50.429This is supposedly a God induced abortion. Now I don't imagine you. Do15100:09:50.509 --> 00:09:52.940you deal with that sort of thingeither? Not, not, normally.15200:09:54.059 --> 00:09:58.139Normally the people that we're dealing with, it's not. They're not trying to15300:09:58.179 --> 00:10:01.659make a biblical case. Yeah,right now there are some liberal groups on15400:10:01.860 --> 00:10:05.820campus that we will, you know, interact with and that, but they15500:10:05.860 --> 00:10:09.809wouldn't they wouldn't be able to,they wouldn't know those kind of arguments.15600:10:09.850 --> 00:10:13.730So most of the things we're gettingare the arguments like, you know,15700:10:13.809 --> 00:10:18.769it's the woman's body, it's awoman's choice, you don't want to ruin15800:10:18.889 --> 00:10:22.759her life if she's wanting to gofinish school or you know, yeah,15900:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.039unasure for a mistake or something likethat. So or, you know,16000:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.799they d t each more of thehigher level arguments in classes like Judith Jarvis16100:10:31.879 --> 00:10:39.350Thompson's violin to argument stuff we justvery yeah. So so do you?16200:10:39.549 --> 00:10:41.830Do you ever have a situation whereour student is come to who is actually16300:10:41.870 --> 00:10:46.389considering abortion and they've come and saytell me why I shouldn't do this?16400:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.700So I we've had some out sonot students, but like my my wife16500:10:50.820 --> 00:10:54.940is really the one that got mereally involved in this. My wife has16600:10:54.019 --> 00:10:58.059that all the time. Right,yeah, the phone, try to talk16700:10:58.139 --> 00:11:01.860someone out of it like that.But as far as students go, we've16800:11:01.899 --> 00:11:05.769had students come to us and saythey're friends, their friend is concerned.16900:11:05.169 --> 00:11:07.809What can I tell them? Whatdo I say? Yeah, and can17000:11:07.889 --> 00:11:13.049I ask you that, because Iknow our listeners are being prolife people that17100:11:13.210 --> 00:11:16.730are look seeking, oftentimes to influencetheir their friends. Yeah, and and17200:11:18.330 --> 00:11:22.080you know, just some basic pointsabout well, where do you start?17300:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.519And and and there's two groups.Those who claim that they know God.17400:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.440Yeah, and claim that God willbe a forgiving God it. We hear17500:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.480that all the time. God willforgive me, I'm going to do this17600:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.549or I think it's okay because weknow that God will forgive. And then17700:11:35.669 --> 00:11:37.750those, and I think this ismaybe the harder group to start with,17800:11:37.870 --> 00:11:43.669because a baby's life is on theline. It's basically crisis emergency, that17900:11:43.750 --> 00:11:46.179baby's going to die. But theydon't believe in God and so you don't18000:11:46.259 --> 00:11:52.500have the months that you probably taketypically to take someone from an atheist position,18100:11:52.539 --> 00:11:56.259yeah, all the way to thishuman life that you carry is precious.18200:11:56.620 --> 00:12:01.809So if you can give some justbasic, the actual practical things that18300:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.570you would say in both of thosescenarios, I think that would be really18400:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.090helpful. Yeah, so I thinkwith the course, with the biblical scenario,18500:12:09.250 --> 00:12:13.129you're just wanting to remind them,hey, if you are a Christian,18600:12:13.809 --> 00:12:16.200what is your authority? Right,and they know you know if you're18700:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.159a Christian, it's the Bible.We talk a lot about the worldview and18800:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.600how we see the world and theBible is like the Lens in which we18900:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.000see the world. And so whatdoes the Bible say about these things?19000:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.629So the Bible may not explicitly usethe word abortion, but it talks about,19100:12:31.070 --> 00:12:33.230you know, murder, talks about, you know onjust killing, and19200:12:33.389 --> 00:12:37.549so you have to look at doesabortion fall into that, and then you19300:12:37.590 --> 00:12:41.230can show it that it does.What the other case, where they're not19400:12:41.549 --> 00:12:48.779Christians, see, there is generalrevelation and special revelation. General revelation is19500:12:48.899 --> 00:12:52.059what God has revealed to us throughnature. You see Romans one talk about19600:12:52.139 --> 00:12:56.019this. Well, people know thedifference between right and wrong. You may19700:12:56.059 --> 00:13:00.450not be able to drill down onall the exact, you know, minutia19800:13:00.610 --> 00:13:05.570of the particular right and wrong,but in general people know it's wrong to19900:13:05.690 --> 00:13:11.889torture babies rather than love them.Right. And so with general revelation,20000:13:11.289 --> 00:13:15.759most people know the difference between rightand wrong. If you ask it,20100:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.320is it okay to kill a babyafterbirth? Ninety nine percent of atheists are20200:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.600going to say no, it's not. They know that, even though they20300:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.950don't believe that God exists, becauseGod does exist, there's this rounding and20400:13:28.110 --> 00:13:31.190foundation. It's what they would,you know, call like the ontological foundation,20500:13:31.350 --> 00:13:35.070to where there is a moral standard, even if they don't believe God20600:13:35.190 --> 00:13:39.269exists, and so you can appealto that. But what I what I20700:13:39.389 --> 00:13:43.740do is just look at what isthe scientific evidence? When does life begin?20800:13:45.179 --> 00:13:48.700So I would just use a verysimple, deductive argument, premise one,20900:13:50.139 --> 00:13:54.259whatever be, I'm sort of givinga column there. Different argument,21000:13:54.940 --> 00:14:00.889premise one. It is wrong tointentionally take the life of an innocent human21100:14:00.929 --> 00:14:03.610being. Premise to abortion, taketo the life of an innocent human being.21200:14:03.889 --> 00:14:07.649Therefore abortion is wrong. So they'regoing to have to showcase premise one21300:14:07.690 --> 00:14:11.000or premise two faults, and I'venever had anybody be able to give an21400:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.960answer to that. Yeah, becausemost are going to grant. Yeah,21500:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.639it is wrong to intentionally take thelife of an innocent human being. So21600:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.600now the next step is, okay, does abortion do this? If life21700:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.830begins a conception, it does,and that's where I will marshal the Scientific21800:14:28.909 --> 00:14:35.830Evidence from the Embryology Textbook, biologytextbooks and demonstrate the authority show life begins21900:14:35.830 --> 00:14:39.580a conception. Right, right.We try to steer them. Then it's22000:14:39.580 --> 00:14:43.379at some point, or at whatpoint would you steer them into the truth22100:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.539of the Gospel? Because ultimately,if you're going to truly change the heart22200:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.779that that says you know that I'mgoing to Abhord, then we know,22300:14:52.179 --> 00:14:54.090yeah, it has to come througha change in our soul, in our22400:14:54.129 --> 00:14:58.889heart. Twist. Yeah, Ithink once they see that, once they22500:14:58.889 --> 00:15:01.889can be shown that it is ahuman being, then you can get into22600:15:01.929 --> 00:15:05.889some of those arguments of well,it has an intrinsic value because people are22700:15:05.889 --> 00:15:07.440made in the image of God.You know, one of the big things22800:15:07.480 --> 00:15:13.120today is the LGBT or discrimination.So you can give examples. Is it22900:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.159wrong to beat up a homosexual justbecause you know they're attracted to the same23000:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.029sex? Right? Theologically, obviouslywe don't agree with that, but we23100:15:22.070 --> 00:15:24.350wouldn't say somebody should be beat upexactly. Yeah, why? Well,23200:15:24.470 --> 00:15:28.110because they're human beings, they haveintrinsic value, they're made in the image23300:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.990of God and therefore they should bevalued. Okay, well, now the23400:15:31.110 --> 00:15:35.190atheist is not going to agree withthat. That's what gives them all right.23500:15:35.549 --> 00:15:37.100So we're do you? How doyou get that's kind of what I'm23600:15:37.100 --> 00:15:41.259asking is, how do I howdo I give arguments for God's existence,23700:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.500that it well, for the value, for the value of that child?23800:15:45.059 --> 00:15:48.899What gives that child value? We'redoes an atheist typically start and how do23900:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.009you lead them to what we knowto be true, that human beings to24000:15:52.090 --> 00:15:56.090value because they're made in the imageof a Holy God? Yeah, so,24100:15:56.210 --> 00:16:00.169I mean I think most atheists,because I mean if most of my24200:16:00.289 --> 00:16:03.289guests, would probably have more oflike an evolutionary view of humanities. So24300:16:03.399 --> 00:16:08.600they would. They may say thathigher forms have more value. Again,24400:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.080I'm not saying it's consistent, butwould say it they have a higher value24500:16:12.120 --> 00:16:17.240than other lower life forms. Thatway, therefore, you know abortion,24600:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.470because you actually have secular pro lifegroups. Yeah, sure, problem is,24700:16:21.990 --> 00:16:23.990and I've talked with several them,the problem is they do have a24800:16:25.070 --> 00:16:27.629hard time grounding it. They canpoint to natural law and they can point24900:16:27.669 --> 00:16:32.789to these things that show we withit is a human being, we should25000:16:32.789 --> 00:16:34.500have value, but they really alot of times do have a hard time25100:16:34.659 --> 00:16:38.700showing why do we have more valuethan, for example, puppy or a25200:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.019bear. So I can't really makethat argument. I don't know why they25300:16:42.539 --> 00:16:48.370hold that. I've I've had theseconversations and with them and a lot of25400:16:48.409 --> 00:16:53.129the secular pro life don't necessarily knowexactly how that's grounded. As far as25500:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.809getting them to kind of our positionis, therefore, you know, you'd25600:16:56.850 --> 00:17:02.960have to get more into their argumentsfor God's existence. So cosmological arguments like25700:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.200the Oh, you know, originsof the universe, fine tuning of the25800:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.279universe, the design, showing thatit's we're not an accident, it didn't25900:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.039just come about by chance, andshowing that there's a purpose in a design26000:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.710and a plan behind it and thatkind of you know, is going to26100:17:17.750 --> 00:17:21.109show. If you can show Godcreated the universe and the life didn't come26200:17:21.150 --> 00:17:25.269from nonliving material, then we dohave value, we do have dignity and26300:17:25.509 --> 00:17:26.829we're not our own okay, nowlet me ask you. So I'm in26400:17:26.950 --> 00:17:32.859front of an abortion clinic, I'mwith an atheist mom and and I agree26500:17:32.900 --> 00:17:34.299with you. I totally agree withyou. I think that is where you26600:17:34.339 --> 00:17:38.539have to start. Can we dothat in five minutes or yeah, and26700:17:38.700 --> 00:17:42.180it can. Can you give mean like the example of what you might26800:17:42.259 --> 00:17:45.089say that can lead them to that, that place? And what was saying?26900:17:45.130 --> 00:17:49.930If you want to play the doa little role? Yeah, yeah,27000:17:51.009 --> 00:17:52.970that way. I know exactly howI would resk. Okay, it's27100:17:53.009 --> 00:17:56.930it's not a baby, it it'sa clump of cells. Okay, and27200:17:57.089 --> 00:18:02.359and and look, you believe inGod, I don't. So you know,27300:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.519I'm not worried about where I'm going. I'm going to turn into dust,27400:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.799you know, the worms are goingto eat me. I there is27500:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.720no such thing as heaven or hell. And and right now this baby's going27600:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.950to destroy my life. And I'mhere and I'm alive and I need I've27700:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.109got plans. Yeah, yeah,they're there. There we go, so27800:18:18.230 --> 00:18:22.190I stay scenario. You got it. Yeah, I would say. You27900:18:22.309 --> 00:18:25.829know what she says. You know, I don't believe in God and this28000:18:25.950 --> 00:18:29.660baby's just a clump of cells.Well, if God doesn't exist, then28100:18:29.700 --> 00:18:32.460all you are is just a clumpof cells. Would it be okay to28200:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.619kill you, or would it beokay to kill one of your loved ones?28300:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.019If all we are, if thereis no god, if all it28400:18:37.140 --> 00:18:41.809is is nature, and if allwe are as clumps of cells, well28500:18:41.089 --> 00:18:44.730you wouldn't say it would be okayto kill you. Well, yeah,28600:18:44.730 --> 00:18:47.970but I'm clumps of cells that thinkand know that I'm alive and you know28700:18:48.009 --> 00:18:51.769I'm conscious and I'm breathing and okay. So why would it? Why?28800:18:51.890 --> 00:18:55.049What? Why does why would thatbe morally relevant? Why does it matter28900:18:55.289 --> 00:19:00.599something is conscious, at conscious inorder to have value? What makes being29000:19:00.680 --> 00:19:06.240conscious look? Is it value?That's a good question. For example,29100:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.670you just don't be ages. Yeah, it just depends how they might go.29200:19:11.869 --> 00:19:17.589You know, you could give anexample of our rats conscious moll people29300:19:17.630 --> 00:19:18.630going to say, well, yeah, at your well then our rats,29400:19:19.109 --> 00:19:22.630persons, are rats people. Wouldit be wrong to kill rats if you29500:19:22.950 --> 00:19:27.579have a rat infestation and you gaspthe rats. You know, is that29600:19:27.779 --> 00:19:32.660going to ben is that the sameas murder? Right, we know intuitively,29700:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.700even if the person doesn't acknowledge thatGod exists, we know at our29800:19:36.779 --> 00:19:41.130conscience there's a difference between killing ababy and killing a rat. Now the29900:19:41.210 --> 00:19:44.089distinction, I think that needs tobe made with the pro life and pro30000:19:44.210 --> 00:19:48.890choice position. I don't believe atthe foundation. Now you do have some30100:19:48.210 --> 00:19:52.690that are going to argue this,but I think the vast majority the confusion30200:19:52.769 --> 00:19:56.319is not is it okay to killbabies, because if you talk to a30300:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.440lot of pro choice people, theissue is more the confusion is when does30400:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.319life begin? Yeah, and youknow this because the vast majority of pro30500:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.269choice people are against abortion in thesecond and third try. Yes, that's30600:20:07.309 --> 00:20:10.950true. Yeah, right. Andso it's more of well, when does30700:20:11.029 --> 00:20:15.109life begin? It's not the majorityof people say, Hey, it's okay30800:20:15.150 --> 00:20:18.069to kill babies. Yeah, right, because if that was a case,30900:20:18.230 --> 00:20:22.059most of them would not be forour restricting abortions in the third of a31000:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.140second. Yeah, you know,you know, it's funny. I mean31100:20:25.140 --> 00:20:29.539I have conversations all the time withpro choice people in front of the abortion31200:20:29.619 --> 00:20:32.500clinic. So these are probably someof the most I mean, I don't31300:20:32.500 --> 00:20:36.569know, but I'm thinking probably someof the most radical pro choice of come31400:20:36.650 --> 00:20:38.210pro abortion people that you can meet, because they're actually taking the step of31500:20:38.329 --> 00:20:41.690being in front of an abortion clinkto pose what we're doing it. Even31600:20:41.769 --> 00:20:45.130with those people, when I askthem the question, it's like you far31700:20:45.210 --> 00:20:48.410as when? When does life begin? When does life begin? They can31800:20:48.490 --> 00:20:52.079tell you when life doesn't begin,but they can never really tell you when31900:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.880life does begin. Right. Sothey'll say, well, it certainly not32000:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.039in the first try, master,I mean, there's no doubt about that,32100:20:59.079 --> 00:21:00.480and probably not even in the secondtime. MSTER. Some of them,32200:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.869some of them are are twenty weeks, some of them are twenty four32300:21:03.950 --> 00:21:07.230weeks, twenty two weeks. I'veheard different, different numbers. I'm like,32400:21:07.750 --> 00:21:11.710so I argued with one of themthat we argued, but you know,32500:21:11.750 --> 00:21:15.309it's game as argument that. Hey, so I'm taking the position of32600:21:15.589 --> 00:21:18.500I know when life begins. You'retaking position where you don't really know if32700:21:18.619 --> 00:21:22.900that building over there, you knowsomeone was about to wreck it with a32800:21:22.940 --> 00:21:26.019wrecking ball and I asked you,is there any living people in there?32900:21:26.180 --> 00:21:30.380Like, have they checked it andyou said, I don't know. Right33000:21:30.059 --> 00:21:33.529then, what did we like?Are On the side of well, if33100:21:33.569 --> 00:21:38.369you don't know when life begins,why don't we just protect all potential lives33200:21:38.690 --> 00:21:42.130and you can stand with me andwe'll stand against abortion. Yeah, and33300:21:42.210 --> 00:21:45.009which I don't know is the best. Best it is. Yeah, pro33400:21:45.170 --> 00:21:48.599I remember when President Obama was asked, you know this, with Rick Warren,33500:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.039when does life begin? And heswell, it's above my pay grade.33600:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.880Yeah, well then, why wouldyou be, for you know,33700:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.839putting all these laws in to moverestrictions on abortion if you could potentially be33800:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.190killing the human being? Exactly?If you know? If you don't know,33900:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.349don't shoot. Yeah, so there'syeah, there's like this win and34000:22:07.430 --> 00:22:10.109out, throw it out sort of. But if the'reality one thing I would34100:22:10.109 --> 00:22:14.109say, you know is in foryour listeners. It is not a mystery34200:22:14.150 --> 00:22:18.500when life begins. Yeah, biologicalfact. Right now, some pro choice,34300:22:18.140 --> 00:22:22.220some of the philosophers try and makea distinction between being a human being34400:22:22.259 --> 00:22:25.940in a person. Yeah, andthen you have to get into some of34500:22:26.019 --> 00:22:29.900those arguments and show why. Youknow, though, there's no real and34600:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.170moral, irrelevant difference. Yeah,but that life begins to conception. That's34700:22:33.289 --> 00:22:37.289just we've known that for yeah,all the time. You I've had pro34800:22:37.369 --> 00:22:41.049choice people say using science and theysay, you know, science, science34900:22:41.089 --> 00:22:45.720proves it. Life doesn't begin atconception, like really, because or that35000:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.319personhood doesn't beginning. Science proves it. These babies aren't persons. That's that's35100:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.440the argument. There's I was like, wait a minute, like person is35200:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.440not really a scientific term, right, it's a philosophical term you're making.35300:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.710I'm making a philosophical argument when Isay human beings are intrinsically valuable and that35400:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.589that person in the womb, thatbaby in the women, is a person.35500:23:04.069 --> 00:23:07.430You're also making a philosophical argument whenyou're saying it's not a person.35600:23:07.470 --> 00:23:11.309Yeah, and and you know youdeal with a lot of that philosophical you35700:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.980know stuff. You know you dealwith those thoughts and so you know you35800:23:17.019 --> 00:23:19.059guys already talked through some of thatand how to talk to an atheist in35900:23:19.140 --> 00:23:22.579front of a an abortion clinic.But what are some of the, I36000:23:22.660 --> 00:23:26.809guess, most relevant philosophical arguments whenyou're talking about abortion? I think you've36100:23:26.809 --> 00:23:30.569already shared some of that, buteven some of the I guess, higher36200:23:30.569 --> 00:23:34.450arguments about abortion because when you getinto talking about life begins at conception,36300:23:34.529 --> 00:23:38.970I think most thinking pro choice peoplehave sort of said yeah, life,36400:23:40.089 --> 00:23:42.079of course it begins at conception.Even you've got some, some very prominent36500:23:42.160 --> 00:23:48.240pro choice advocates that say yeah,I'll grant you that, even with the36600:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.920violinist argument. Share these like I'llgrant you that, this is a person,36700:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.710but does this person have the rightto take over another person since body?36800:23:56.029 --> 00:23:57.789So what are some of those higherarguments? Are At least some ways36900:23:57.869 --> 00:24:00.869to combat some of those higher prochoice arguments, if you understand what I'm37000:24:00.869 --> 00:24:03.269saying? Yeah, I think so. So some of those arguments like you37100:24:03.349 --> 00:24:07.309just mentioned, like the violinist argument, those are those are some of the37200:24:07.430 --> 00:24:11.140harder ones to defeat because in mostof the arguments, most of most of37300:24:11.180 --> 00:24:15.500the pro choice people, we're nottalking in academy, but just most of37400:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.539the people you're going to run intoat the grocery store whatever, they're not37500:24:18.619 --> 00:24:22.140aware of those kind of art yea, most it's most emotional or right,37600:24:22.259 --> 00:24:26.609right, and they almost always begthe question as to when life begins,37700:24:26.730 --> 00:24:30.170you know. But some of thehigher level arguments, like the Judith Jervis37800:24:30.250 --> 00:24:33.170Thompson's violinist arguments. They're hard becausethey grant that it's a human being.37900:24:33.250 --> 00:24:37.569Yeah, and so really what youneed to show because with I think the38000:24:37.849 --> 00:24:41.119the that particular violinist arguments trying toargue from analogy. We're trying to show38100:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.359is really worth the analogies break down. Sure. So, for example,38200:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.599with the violinist argument, it's fine. I'm doing a fifteen week course at38300:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.710ours on our Sunday School Church onthis issue. Okay, last week was38400:24:53.829 --> 00:24:57.230this arguments? All right, yeah, we we just a podcast last week38500:24:57.230 --> 00:25:00.349about this Argu yeah, really,really, it's not a question of when38600:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.789life begins, but a question ofwhen is that like valuable, because I38700:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.220think they will grant us most ofthe time they will say it's alive at38800:25:07.299 --> 00:25:11.299some level, but it's a lesservalue. And I think for me that's38900:25:11.339 --> 00:25:15.180what the higher level argument is iswhen does value when? When is value39000:25:15.259 --> 00:25:18.819conferred upon that child? Yeah,so with with some of them, you39100:25:18.859 --> 00:25:21.099know, we were just talking aboutthe some of them would say, well,39200:25:21.180 --> 00:25:25.769because it's not conscious. So maybewhat I would say is what makes39300:25:26.089 --> 00:25:30.690somebody a human being? What isit that makes someone valuable or makes someone39400:25:30.049 --> 00:25:33.450a human being. And so youmay get this thing like, well,39500:25:33.089 --> 00:25:38.279it's it's conscience or it's has sentience, et Cetera. But again you have39600:25:38.400 --> 00:25:44.960things like rats or kangaroo's these thingsalso have consciousness, but we wouldn't say39700:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.119that their persons. What about peoplewho are in Colemas, for example,39800:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.950that don't have that? Are theystill considered persons? And so I think39900:25:53.029 --> 00:26:00.829it's trying to flush out their inconsistencies. If they're going to say human,40000:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.099it's a human but it's not aperson with value. It's really the onus,40100:26:04.259 --> 00:26:07.900is not me, to disprove them. They have to give reasons as40200:26:07.940 --> 00:26:12.619to why it's morally relevant. What'sthe difference between a human being and a40300:26:12.779 --> 00:26:18.220person and all these little, youknow, things that they have, such40400:26:18.220 --> 00:26:22.490as, you know, consciousness,etc. When you just apply them,40500:26:22.690 --> 00:26:26.210it ends in it in absurdity.Somebody that's in a coma, can you40600:26:26.329 --> 00:26:30.170kill them? Well, but theneuthanasia, as we know, they are40700:26:30.329 --> 00:26:36.079killing people like commas. Yeah,so, but there's a distinction there.40800:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.240Most of the people that do theeuthanasia they want to die. The baby40900:26:40.480 --> 00:26:42.720doesn't have that choice right either.Not Given them. Yes, so there's41000:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.430a difference between people that just tothey have this terminally ill disease, they41100:26:47.509 --> 00:26:52.230don't want to live anymore. Andyou know somebody that you know. They're41200:26:52.230 --> 00:26:53.869just pulling the plug and somebodys andeven have a say. Yeah, and41300:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.869even with that, you know,one of the distinctions also, you know,41400:26:57.950 --> 00:27:03.059talk about the violinist argument. Yeah, it's not just withholding, it's41500:27:03.059 --> 00:27:07.940actually actively murdering. Yeahs with abortionit's like, you know, you're slitting41600:27:07.980 --> 00:27:11.700the throat, you're not just unpluggingfrom the violinist. Now with you euthanasia,41700:27:12.059 --> 00:27:15.210it is also not just passing,but it is an act of killing.41800:27:15.289 --> 00:27:18.890And so I mean, we cantalk about some yeah, let's jump41900:27:18.890 --> 00:27:22.170into that, because I didn't wantto talk about the you know, primary42000:27:22.250 --> 00:27:26.049focus is the issue of abortion,but I think these issues. I'm reading42100:27:26.089 --> 00:27:30.640stuff, you know, from prochoice or pro life, sorry, sources42200:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.359online talking about assistant suicide, youthand Asian that sort of thing. One42300:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.440young lady, I don't know ifyou read this story. When young lady,42400:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.759I think she was twenty three.Twenty three years old, I believe,42500:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.349is in the Netherlands. It wassomewhere across the pond there and twenty42600:27:45.390 --> 00:27:48.430three years old. No, physicalissues really going on, but she had42700:27:48.509 --> 00:27:53.190extreme depression. She had been,I think, a sexually a victim of42800:27:53.269 --> 00:27:56.789sexual molestation or something like that,and just dealing with this depression. Her42900:27:56.869 --> 00:28:03.940psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, kindof three meads at it, counseling whatever,43000:28:03.980 --> 00:28:06.259and I guess she'd been in somekind of counseling. Anyway, long43100:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.220story short, they basically said,hey, listen, there's nothing else we43200:28:08.259 --> 00:28:12.410can do for you. The bestthing you could do probably is is assistant43300:28:12.450 --> 00:28:15.730suicide. Yeah, it's like twentythree years old. They basically told her.43400:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.369The people are supposed to help herbasically told her, sorry, there's43500:28:18.410 --> 00:28:22.450no real help for you. Yourlife really is not worth living. I43600:28:22.490 --> 00:28:26.089mean that to me. That's whatthey're telling yeah, and there's a story43700:28:26.170 --> 00:28:29.920in Canada. A young man,I think thirty nine years old, or43800:28:29.960 --> 00:28:32.640maybe early, for he's not,you know, not terribly old, had43900:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.799some some some illness where he neededongoing treatment and whatever. I mean the44000:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.390guy still functional, you know,he's not like completely like vegetable or whatever,44100:28:42.109 --> 00:28:47.589still functional, but basically they werehe had to have ongoing care in44200:28:47.789 --> 00:28:49.950home care and they basically said,hey, listen, the money's run out44300:28:49.990 --> 00:28:53.470for this thing and we really can'tdo anything else. This is probably your44400:28:53.470 --> 00:28:59.579best option, which is Ethan,Asia or suicide. So, you know,44500:28:59.660 --> 00:29:03.140their stories grieve me because what itseems to me is, as a44600:29:03.259 --> 00:29:06.819society, the very thing that thatUS Christians have warned about for a long44700:29:06.859 --> 00:29:10.009time, which is this whole assistantsuicide, youth and Asia abortion thing,44800:29:10.569 --> 00:29:14.450has stripped away the intrinsic value ofhuman life. And now we're on the44900:29:14.809 --> 00:29:18.049downward spiral where, you know,we're going to be putting people in old45000:29:18.089 --> 00:29:21.049folks homes to death. We're goingto be I mean, that's happened peoper.45100:29:21.130 --> 00:29:22.930Yeah, keep it cheaper, becausewe're looking at the numbers and we're45200:29:22.930 --> 00:29:27.640looking at I mean, if youcome from an atheistic, naturalistic mindset,45300:29:29.079 --> 00:29:33.000then human beings are nothing more thanjust evolved animals. That so how do45400:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.400you, how do you tie thesethese issues in together? Euthanasia, assisted45500:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.789suicide, abortion? Don't really wantto talk about the death penalty. Think45600:29:41.950 --> 00:29:45.390that I do want to have thatconversation. I think we're going to do45700:29:45.430 --> 00:29:48.230a podcast about that because I thinkthat's an important so yeah, but I45800:29:48.309 --> 00:29:51.069think it is a separate issue becausewe're dealing with, you know, a45900:29:51.109 --> 00:29:53.220guilty party, and there's some argumentsto be made on both sides of for46000:29:53.299 --> 00:29:57.220that. But just those three issues, using these Ethan Asia, assist suicide46100:29:57.299 --> 00:30:00.859and abortion, how do these tiein together in your mind from a philosophical46200:30:02.019 --> 00:30:04.500yeah, I mean I think alot of it is because it is.46300:30:04.619 --> 00:30:08.970It's it's viewed as more of thisfunctionalist view of a human being rather the46400:30:10.210 --> 00:30:12.890intrinsic value of a human yeah,so it's because, you know, these46500:30:12.930 --> 00:30:18.609people are old, they can't offeranything, they can't contribute anything, therefore46600:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.119they don't have value. Yeah,same thing as kind of conferred on the46700:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.880unborn right, is that they don't. They're just these parasites. They're not46800:30:26.039 --> 00:30:32.960offering anything, they're not helping,they're just sucking resources, and so it's46900:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.990looked at more of like what canyou do, rather than you're valuable for47000:30:37.109 --> 00:30:40.789who you are. Yeah, alot of the arguments that go for youth47100:30:40.829 --> 00:30:45.230and Asia and abortion really go handin glove. Yeah, and it's because47200:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.109it's this idea of this worldview that, you know, we're just were molecules47300:30:48.190 --> 00:30:55.500in motion, nothing outside of thebox. And so Dr Geisler and Dr47400:30:55.619 --> 00:31:00.019Turk wrote a really good book legislatingmorality, also, Dr Geisler, is47500:31:00.019 --> 00:31:03.849Christian ethics that has whole chapters onthese issues. But what they show on47600:31:03.890 --> 00:31:07.690legislating morality was so many of thesepeople, you know talk about in the47700:31:07.890 --> 00:31:12.609in the Netherlands, where this is, you know, legal, who were47800:31:12.650 --> 00:31:15.089going to do it. They didn'tend up doing it. They were so47900:31:15.250 --> 00:31:18.279glad they didn't. Yeah, itwas a time of depression. It was48000:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.200something that they fell into, butit passed. Yeah, you know,48100:31:22.759 --> 00:31:27.039these consequences is our eternal when you'retalking convincing somebody, well, you know,48200:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.160you might as well just, youknow, kill yourself because it's not48300:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.430going to get better. Yeah,that is you know, when the horse48400:31:33.470 --> 00:31:37.710falls down and breaks the leg andyou take it out back and shoot it.48500:31:37.910 --> 00:31:40.750Yeah, we do with animals,right, don't do that with human48600:31:40.829 --> 00:31:44.910beings. And it's because human beingsare valuable and we would say, ultimately,48700:31:44.950 --> 00:31:48.779as Christians, it's grounded in becausewe're made in the image of God.48800:31:48.940 --> 00:31:52.539Yeah, you know, and mostpeople, I can I think they48900:31:52.660 --> 00:31:56.220know human beings are valuable. Theymay not know how to ground that exactly,49000:31:56.180 --> 00:32:00.140but yeah, people, most people, if you ask, are humans49100:32:00.180 --> 00:32:02.009more valuable than a cockroach. They'regoing to say, yeah, he was49200:32:02.049 --> 00:32:07.130more in. What it shows isbetrays to the atheist is they're inconsistent world49300:32:07.170 --> 00:32:10.730view. Yeah, because if theywere consistent with their worldview, we really49400:32:10.769 --> 00:32:15.329wouldn't be yeah, we're just moleculesand motion. Yeah. Yeah, we49500:32:15.650 --> 00:32:19.359do sink to the level of wherehuman life really has then ceased to have49600:32:19.440 --> 00:32:24.400value and we are a society thatis slatching towards all of these horrific really49700:32:24.519 --> 00:32:30.910forms of murder. Yeah, portionassisted suicide and and euthanasia. Yeah,49800:32:30.230 --> 00:32:32.630eithering that that's true. That Imean. I think it is just from49900:32:32.630 --> 00:32:37.750observation, but just even conversations withthe students and stuff. Do you see50000:32:37.190 --> 00:32:43.750that society is sort of going towardthis downward spiral of human beings no longer50100:32:43.829 --> 00:32:47.259have intrinsic value or just like animals? The you see that in conversations?50200:32:47.339 --> 00:32:51.819It's a good question. See someof the polls that I've seen recently show50300:32:52.220 --> 00:32:54.460is actually a spite in. Okay, but hold to the pro life position.50400:32:54.460 --> 00:32:58.569Yeah, so I get I thinka lot of it is there is50500:32:58.769 --> 00:33:04.970this confusion of when does life begin? I think if it really if we50600:33:05.049 --> 00:33:08.890were really seeing that, then thesenumbers of second third trimesters. People should50700:33:08.890 --> 00:33:12.920be okay with it. Yeah,but most people aren't. So I almost50800:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.960see it as this view of naturallaw or natural theology where people see it's50900:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.039a general revelation that even up theirworld views are inconsistent with it. We51000:33:22.400 --> 00:33:29.029know it's wrong to torture babies forfun or, you know, murder innocent51100:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.230human beings. We know it.Yeah, we know it. We suppressed51200:33:31.269 --> 00:33:35.829it, Romans one says. Wetry and suppress that. Yeah, but51300:33:36.029 --> 00:33:37.470we know it now. I thinkwe can ever get rid of that,51400:33:38.349 --> 00:33:44.180even if we sink to some prettyevil things. Yeah. So, okay,51500:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.500so a thought comes to mind.I mentioned we, mean Vickie,51600:33:46.539 --> 00:33:52.339did a podcast and we mentioned theJudith Jarvis Thompson argument. The podcasts focus51700:33:52.380 --> 00:33:57.089around because sort of my body,my choice in this self idolatry right,51800:33:57.210 --> 00:34:00.690that that self is God and thatGod no longer enters into the equation.51900:34:01.730 --> 00:34:07.449So you could it be with witheuthanasia and with assistant suicide, because I52000:34:07.530 --> 00:34:10.760hear when I talk to some prochoice people and they talk about sister suicide,52100:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.920they talk about Ethan Asia, mainlyabout sister suicide, and the arguments52200:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.039they use for that are like bodilyautonomy arguments. Right, a person has52300:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.079a right to have themselves put todeath, right, and and so do52400:34:23.159 --> 00:34:29.110you see that sort as being aseparation between the issue of abortion and assistant52500:34:29.150 --> 00:34:30.869suicide and that sort of thing?You understand when them when? Yeah,52600:34:31.070 --> 00:34:34.710you're saying, like with with that, is that they want their they want52700:34:34.750 --> 00:34:37.389to control their own destiny. Right, yeah, they want to control their52800:34:37.389 --> 00:34:39.780own destiny. But then you're saying, and I think the numbers definitely the52900:34:39.820 --> 00:34:44.340numbers beared out where you're seeing moreand more people becoming prolife. Yeah,53000:34:44.420 --> 00:34:46.820so there's sort of like even inwithin the pro choice people that we would53100:34:46.820 --> 00:34:50.539kind of lump together with, youknow, their pro abortion, the pro53200:34:50.659 --> 00:34:53.250euthanasia, pross assistants suicide. There'skind of a divide there. Yeah,53300:34:53.409 --> 00:34:58.130those people, so that more ofthem are seeing the inconsistencies and sort of53400:34:58.130 --> 00:35:00.690the my body, my choice argumentfor abortion. Right, they can see53500:35:00.690 --> 00:35:05.210the consistencies maybe with that for suicide, but before abortion their starting to say,53600:35:05.250 --> 00:35:07.960okay, science is showing us thisis a separate body, separate person.53700:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.239You think that's sort of what's goingon? Yeah, I think it53800:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.719is, because, like with you, like thing with the abortion it's is53900:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.119there's another person in play. Yeah, as to where euthanasia, it's just54000:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.960them and it's, you know,this idea of this death with dignity,54100:35:21.510 --> 00:35:23.949but in reality it's coward us.Yeah, really is cowardice. Okay,54200:35:23.949 --> 00:35:28.269I mean they're you. How youdon't know if God's going to heal you.54300:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.309You don't know what God's going todo through that with other people.54400:35:31.829 --> 00:35:35.860Your body is not your own,your life is not. Yeah, it54500:35:35.980 --> 00:35:38.820doesn't mean you have to go throughextraordinary means to stay alive. You know,54600:35:38.900 --> 00:35:42.460we got a friend who, youknow, the mom's like in her54700:35:42.980 --> 00:35:46.420s and you know, stage four, you know, renal failure and all54800:35:46.460 --> 00:35:50.650these things. She's going to die. So obviously wouldn't say. You know,54900:35:50.849 --> 00:35:53.690she starts to go in and,you know, resuscitated all that.55000:35:53.809 --> 00:35:59.409That's that's that's not the same.But you know, it's this idea that,55100:35:59.769 --> 00:36:02.409you know, it's my body,I can do what I want,55200:36:02.610 --> 00:36:06.360my decision, and it's just not, you know, especially if you're a55300:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.239Christian. That's yeah, definitely notthe way it is. Yeah, you55400:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.239know it is uncertain, it isunknown, you don't know what you're going55500:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.880to get. You know it's butit's trusting in God. He Mall.55600:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.030It may heal you, he maynot, but he can use your story55700:36:20.269 --> 00:36:22.309and you to bring other people tothe Kingdom and at the end of the55800:36:22.349 --> 00:36:27.590day, that is a Christian that'sthe goal. Yeah, right, and55900:36:27.789 --> 00:36:30.989absolutely. Yeah, if you cantalk about because I hear this all the56000:36:31.030 --> 00:36:37.900time in all three of those areas, that but this prevents unbearable suffering and56100:36:38.179 --> 00:36:43.300we would kill our dog. Wetake our dog andice when our dog is56200:36:44.179 --> 00:36:45.099it took me a long time beforeI was able to do that, but56300:36:45.179 --> 00:36:49.010we do do that, most ofus do. Yeah, to prevent suffering.56400:36:49.210 --> 00:36:51.489So, and that argument is usedin all three of those cases,56500:36:51.610 --> 00:36:55.849youth the nation, abortion and andassisted suicide. Is there is unbearable suffering,56600:36:57.250 --> 00:37:00.010suffering to the mother. In thecase of abortion, she is going56700:37:00.090 --> 00:37:01.840to suffer or sometimes, in thecase of the baby, the baby is56800:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.559going to be born with some herthorrific disease that it's only going to cause56900:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.000suffering their entire life. So,biblically, can you talk to that?57000:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.920How do you dismantle that? Well, like with that that example of will57100:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.349the baby is going to be bornand it's going to have these particular physical57200:37:16.429 --> 00:37:21.389problems. I would say you youwould treat that the same way you would57300:37:21.389 --> 00:37:24.190as if a todd or was ina terrible car accident and and they were57400:37:24.349 --> 00:37:29.190going to, you know, diesoon. You wouldn't get a pillow,57500:37:29.230 --> 00:37:31.900wouldn't smother it or take it upback and shoot it. You offer comfort57600:37:32.019 --> 00:37:36.860and love and hope, but youknow, as it as it as the57700:37:36.900 --> 00:37:40.860baby passes away. As far asbeing against it because of the unbearable suffering,57800:37:40.900 --> 00:37:45.769etc. Well, I mean,you know, nobody wants to suffer,57900:37:45.969 --> 00:37:49.969but good things can happen through oursuffering. Look at the cross,58000:37:50.170 --> 00:37:53.530look at Jesus. Yeah, goodthings can happen through the suffering and it58100:37:53.730 --> 00:37:59.719is a testimony of God working inus, through us and with other people.58200:37:59.800 --> 00:38:02.480The reason we don't take human beingsout back and shoot them like an58300:38:02.480 --> 00:38:07.199animal or take them to the bedand euthanize them like a dog is because58400:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.119of that. We're not animals.Were he hands different? That's why there's58500:38:12.119 --> 00:38:17.110a distinction there right treat we don'ttreat humans like dogs. Yes, yeah,58600:38:17.110 --> 00:38:22.070and that's, you know, ourour main go I was actually again58700:38:22.150 --> 00:38:27.420talking to one of the pro choiceladies and just sharing with her. You58800:38:27.460 --> 00:38:29.699know our goal is, we wantto say, babies in front of you.58900:38:29.699 --> 00:38:32.179A portion we're there to speak onbehalf of those babies. But another59000:38:32.980 --> 00:38:37.940sort of secondary, maybe not secondary, I don't know, just maybe in59100:38:37.539 --> 00:38:44.409overarching sort of reason why we're outthere is to protect and guard the value59200:38:44.449 --> 00:38:46.530of human life. You know,I sort of see it as in my59300:38:46.730 --> 00:38:51.010city there's dirty people that are goingto die and I know where it's going59400:38:51.090 --> 00:38:53.969to happen, I know when it'sgoing to happen and in order to guard59500:38:54.050 --> 00:38:58.920those individuals, but also to guardthis thing called the sanctity of human life59600:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.039or the intrinsic value of human life. If that's happening in to my city59700:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.360and I don't do something about it, then I'm sort of I'm sort of59800:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.440part of the problem. Not thatI don't mean that as condemnation for people59900:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.150that are not involved in what I'mdoing. I'm not saying what I'm doing60000:39:10.309 --> 00:39:14.230is the most important, although Ithink it might be, but I think60100:39:14.230 --> 00:39:15.590it's very important. Yeah, butI mean when we, you know,60200:39:15.710 --> 00:39:19.710it ties into a lot when wewhen we talk about the intrinsic value of60300:39:19.750 --> 00:39:23.380human life and then we really donothing, we turn a blind eye to60400:39:23.619 --> 00:39:28.420what's going on. It's it's sortof chips away at that and we sort60500:39:28.460 --> 00:39:31.099of add to this idea that humanlife maybe doesn't have any value. You60600:39:31.179 --> 00:39:36.420Look, even the Christians don't careso much, right, and so you60700:39:36.500 --> 00:39:38.329know, I think one of thethings that we do, and with the60800:39:38.409 --> 00:39:40.849pro choice lady, I told her, listen, you're here and I think60900:39:40.849 --> 00:39:44.849you're here to guard something that touse, very precious, which is a61000:39:44.889 --> 00:39:46.809woman's right to choose. Now,from my perspective it's a woman's right to61100:39:46.849 --> 00:39:50.929choose to kill her child, right, but I understand your guarden something that's61200:39:50.929 --> 00:39:53.559precious to you, but understand thatwe're also trying to guard something that's precious61300:39:53.559 --> 00:39:58.400to us, those individual babies,but also the sanctity of human life.61400:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.480Can you speak to from, youknow, an apologetics, Biblical and philosophical61500:40:02.519 --> 00:40:09.030perspective, kind of how we,as believers, guard human the sanctity of61600:40:09.070 --> 00:40:15.429human life, and how we upholdthat value so that society, secular society61700:40:15.869 --> 00:40:20.070and whatever religious society, looks andsays, okay, there's something to what61800:40:20.150 --> 00:40:23.659these Christians are saying. How dohow do we give those good philosophical arguments,61900:40:23.699 --> 00:40:28.099biblical arguments and maintain that. Yeah, I mean I think it goes62000:40:28.219 --> 00:40:35.019back to showing when life begins,because life begins a conception. We're human62100:40:35.099 --> 00:40:37.809beings. Were not, you know, other than that, and because human62200:40:37.849 --> 00:40:42.769beings. I mean it's going togo right back to really special revelation.62300:40:43.210 --> 00:40:45.409Okay, how do we know we'redifferent than pandas and bear? Yeah,62400:40:45.409 --> 00:40:49.289I do. We have more value. Well, I'm not going to find62500:40:49.329 --> 00:40:51.800that in nature, other than ifI was to look. Maybe it's some62600:40:51.880 --> 00:40:53.480of these like well, you know, we can think, can we can62700:40:53.519 --> 00:40:59.159do more? Yeah, but itneeds to be specially revealed to us that62800:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.309we have souls, we we haveeternal life if we believe in Jesus.62900:41:05.389 --> 00:41:07.670Not even angels, you know,have these things. They're not made in63000:41:07.750 --> 00:41:10.550the image of God. People aremade in the image of God. Yeah,63100:41:10.750 --> 00:41:15.869and so we just deduce that basicallythrough a proper world view, which63200:41:15.909 --> 00:41:19.940is a Christian world view, andknow that we have dignity, we have63300:41:20.099 --> 00:41:23.699value, we are made in theimage of God because the Bible is true.63400:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.739It can be shown to be truebecause Jesus rose from the dead.63500:41:29.019 --> 00:41:31.619There's good arguments to believe Jesus rosefrom the dead, good arguments to believe63600:41:31.659 --> 00:41:37.130that God created the universe. Andso if Jesus is God, whatever Jesus63700:41:37.210 --> 00:41:40.289teaches is true. Jesus teaches,you know, man is made in the63800:41:40.329 --> 00:41:47.719image of God. Therefore humans havespiritiual intrinsic value. Yeah, so when63900:41:47.760 --> 00:41:52.360you're dealing with I mean, ultimatelyto me it does has come back around64000:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.559to the Gospel. Yeah, itcomes back around to what God did on64100:41:55.719 --> 00:42:00.719behalf of human beings. You know, I'm sort of you know, I64200:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.469know people that are presubsiditional apologists andlike take a hard line approach on that64300:42:05.510 --> 00:42:07.989stuff and if you're making arguments forthe existence of God, your sort outside64400:42:08.070 --> 00:42:13.630the the boundaries there, and I'msort of I'm almost that. Actually,64500:42:14.110 --> 00:42:15.460then I'm not that, you know, because I make argument being this.64600:42:15.739 --> 00:42:20.099Yeah, I don't think I willbe, because I think actually the scripture64700:42:20.099 --> 00:42:24.059gives us good reason to argue fromcreation that there's a god on all these64800:42:24.219 --> 00:42:29.940all these other things. But itreally does come back down to sharing from64900:42:30.010 --> 00:42:35.010the truth of God's Word and andthat point that you made, and I65000:42:35.170 --> 00:42:37.329probably ask this with with but asthis younging. If you know who Jason65100:42:37.369 --> 00:42:42.610Himnez is, but we've talked aboutyou know he's apologize. Guide does a65200:42:42.650 --> 00:42:45.119lot of apologetic stuff and and we'vetalked about it. Vicky and I talked65300:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.559about this image of God thing likethis, this this idea that human beings65400:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.079are made in the image of God, which I think it ultimately comes back65500:42:53.199 --> 00:42:58.909to. And then we see,of course, Jesus coming and and really65600:42:58.949 --> 00:43:01.070showing you sort of the value ofwhat it is to be made in the65700:43:01.110 --> 00:43:05.469image of God by laying his lifedown to redeem those who remain the image65800:43:05.469 --> 00:43:07.590of God. Jesus didn't die forangels or he didn't die for dogs or65900:43:07.670 --> 00:43:10.750cats, he didn't die for youknow, whatever he did. He died66000:43:10.789 --> 00:43:15.539for human beings. But if youcould real quick, because I don't know66100:43:15.579 --> 00:43:20.019if there's any like perfect definition forthis, but just give me an idea66200:43:20.059 --> 00:43:22.780of what you think the Bible teachesabout being made in the image of God,66300:43:23.139 --> 00:43:27.650what that what that means, howwe wrap our minds around that concept.66400:43:27.690 --> 00:43:29.650So, yeah, that's a goodquestion and you know, I don't66500:43:29.690 --> 00:43:31.250know if there is a single answer, because you have a lot of theologians66600:43:31.329 --> 00:43:35.650that will debate that exactly what itmeans. I think you can know some66700:43:35.769 --> 00:43:38.369things that it's not. Yeah,it doesn't mean physically. Okay, because,66800:43:40.090 --> 00:43:43.840let's see, John Four hundred andtwenty four. You know, God66900:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.320is spirit. Those who worshiping mustworshipman, Spirit and truth. But thirty67000:43:47.320 --> 00:43:51.840nine, a spirit does not haveflesh and blood. You know, you67100:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.639see, I have so. Therefore, you know, if God is a67200:43:53.679 --> 00:43:57.550spirit, Spirit still off flesh andblood. God is in that flesh.67300:43:57.670 --> 00:44:00.230Yeah, sure, Jesus, humannature, etc. But yeah, so67400:44:00.349 --> 00:44:04.949God is not a physical being.I think what you could say is is67500:44:05.110 --> 00:44:08.150it's some of the things we knowit is. We have the ability to67600:44:08.309 --> 00:44:12.340think, we have the ability tobe rational, we have the ability to67700:44:12.500 --> 00:44:15.420ponder things. The meaning of life. Why are we here? Where do67800:44:15.539 --> 00:44:21.019we go when we die? IsCertain, you know, propositions, true67900:44:21.019 --> 00:44:22.940or false? We can debate thosethings. It seems to be one of68000:44:22.980 --> 00:44:27.449the you know, the big distinctionbetween US and other animals, or some68100:44:27.610 --> 00:44:31.650intelligence and some other animals. Butnot where you're seeing the artwork, prayer,68200:44:32.210 --> 00:44:37.769meditation, writing, books, music, seems to be something, you68300:44:37.889 --> 00:44:44.079know, in the in the rationalsoul, separates us from other yeah,68400:44:44.440 --> 00:44:49.920you think creativity has into that,and God is obviously creative. Yeah,68500:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.670you see all he's aid thought justpopped in the mind like man. What68600:44:52.789 --> 00:44:57.150you're saying, this is like creativity, is the the ability to invent new68700:44:57.269 --> 00:45:00.150things and the CO come up withnew concepts and ideas and in art and68800:45:00.230 --> 00:45:04.949all those things. Because to methat is a that is a deep question.68900:45:05.429 --> 00:45:08.059It's a question I think we asChristians need to have best answer we69000:45:08.179 --> 00:45:12.260can. Yeah, but also toponder, because I think it's you know,69100:45:12.300 --> 00:45:14.940it's deep in the sense that itcalls us to self reflect. What69200:45:15.019 --> 00:45:16.460does it mean mean for me tobe made in the image of God?69300:45:16.699 --> 00:45:21.059Right, and and what does thatentail? If I made in the image69400:45:21.059 --> 00:45:23.570of God, how does that howam I to live? You made in69500:45:23.570 --> 00:45:28.210the image of God and you gotgroups like Mormon that go really wrong on69600:45:28.369 --> 00:45:30.769that and end up with God whois a physical being. We are not69700:45:30.929 --> 00:45:35.050only vexed our view of them,but also effects of you of who God69800:45:35.210 --> 00:45:37.760is. Yeah, it's an importantquestion, for sure. Yeah, it69900:45:38.159 --> 00:45:44.400related to that. Would you saythat that is the absolute basic truth of70000:45:44.719 --> 00:45:47.519what gives us value, is thefact that we are made in the image70100:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.349of God? Would that be theverse? Yeah, I mean, I70200:45:51.469 --> 00:45:53.110don't see. I don't see theway around it. I mean, I70300:45:53.230 --> 00:45:57.030know how to offer. I knowhow to debate with it. You know,70400:45:57.670 --> 00:46:01.309with an atheist you use using kindof natural law. But as far70500:46:01.309 --> 00:46:06.780as getting down to the grounding isto well, why are human beings more70600:46:06.900 --> 00:46:09.340special than other creatures? I don'tsee how you get out of it other70700:46:09.420 --> 00:46:12.579than we're made in the image ofGod. Right, right, and that70800:46:12.619 --> 00:46:15.179Christian world view is true, youknow. And and what something else in70900:46:15.300 --> 00:46:19.090one of you said about what isthe meaning in life? So so,71000:46:19.409 --> 00:46:21.969another way of saying that. Whatis our purpose? And does the Bible71100:46:22.010 --> 00:46:24.409address that? What is our purpose? A general purpose? We all have71200:46:24.889 --> 00:46:30.809specific purposes, but what is ourgeneral purpose biblically, because I think that71300:46:30.050 --> 00:46:34.679is related very much to what we'rediscussing. It is it's to know him,71400:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.679no, Jesus, and to makehim known. Yeah, that's that71500:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.840is the whole purpose of life,being united to Christ. You know,71600:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.679when we love somebody, to lovesomebody is to will the best for that71700:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.869person. If I love Daniel,the best for Daniel is what united to71800:46:49.909 --> 00:46:52.429Jesus Christ. Right, if Ilove my Muslim neighbor, what's the best71900:46:52.469 --> 00:46:57.070thing I can do? It isnot a firm them and hey, whatever72000:46:57.110 --> 00:47:00.429I believe is great. That ishating, right. Yeah, best thing72100:47:00.469 --> 00:47:04.460I could do to love him,to share the gospel my pro choice friend.72200:47:04.780 --> 00:47:07.179Right, what's the best thing Ican do? See Her united to72300:47:07.260 --> 00:47:12.420Jesus Christ. Yeah, out,abortion is going to cause pain suffering.72400:47:13.460 --> 00:47:15.849You know, she's gonna have ahard time with that the rest of her72500:47:15.929 --> 00:47:19.050life. Right, and the babywill end up dead. Yeah, you72600:47:19.170 --> 00:47:21.929know. So, if I lovethem, the best thing I can do72700:47:22.130 --> 00:47:25.730introduced her to Jesus Christ, whocan heal her and, yeah, and72800:47:27.010 --> 00:47:30.039raise from the dead. Amen.That's that's good. Well, I mean,72900:47:30.039 --> 00:47:34.559I think with that man, Ithink we'll wrap this this thing up,73000:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.719if you're cool with that. Ifhe don't know if he had anything73100:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.519else you wanted to Oh maybe justreal quick. The Life House. Me73200:47:39.599 --> 00:47:42.920and my wife are okay. Yeah, Life Aus. It's a rock.73300:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.510He'll you know. We don't makingany money off of it or anything,73400:47:46.590 --> 00:47:51.710but it's a place. I thinkit holds about five beds for women who73500:47:51.750 --> 00:47:55.469were in crisis pregnancy issue. Soif you guys, you know anybody out73600:47:55.469 --> 00:48:00.659there listening, if you run acrossthe woman or whatever that is pregnant in73700:48:00.860 --> 00:48:05.699is need of housing in that youknow, contact of Life House. Okay,73800:48:05.860 --> 00:48:07.780Ron, it's the Rocciola lifehouse.Yeah, and rock you. What73900:48:07.980 --> 00:48:12.139age? Is there in age specificationon how young and how well they're so74000:48:12.340 --> 00:48:15.530nope, okay, no, wecan take teenagers and sometimes it's a,74100:48:15.650 --> 00:48:17.730you know, best situation. Andhow do people get in touch with you?74200:48:19.289 --> 00:48:23.610Yeah, if you go to Devonor Melissa PLU at Rashio Christie are74300:48:24.090 --> 00:48:28.559page, will pull right up.Okay, and look at our youtube page,74400:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.360Rashoe, Christie, winthrop, andall of our talks that we do74500:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.840their on online. Okay, cool. And you guys do a podcast to74600:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.000you said, yeah, theology matterswith the polues. been doing that for74700:48:38.400 --> 00:48:42.869about eight years and now, okay, theology matters with the police. I'll74800:48:42.909 --> 00:48:45.269do my best to how to puta link to all this stuff, sure74900:48:45.469 --> 00:48:49.030in the in the show notes onthe really thank you know. Thank you,75000:48:49.110 --> 00:48:52.150guys. You guys are out heredoing doing the heavy lifting. By75100:48:52.230 --> 00:48:55.980the grace of God, relates someprivilege. Vilege. Just do a great,75200:48:57.019 --> 00:49:00.219great one. You think you would. You'd feel qualified and the you'd75300:49:00.260 --> 00:49:02.500beat more than qualified to come backat some point and talk about the issue75400:49:02.539 --> 00:49:07.219of the death penalty. That's somethingyou pondered. Oh Yeah, because you're75500:49:07.219 --> 00:49:09.730always accused of being a hypocrite.Sure, yeah, I'd like to talk75600:49:09.769 --> 00:49:13.849about that. You can't get intothat on this on this episode. Yeah,75700:49:13.849 --> 00:49:15.730I mean, Oh man, okay, yeah, we'll do that in75800:49:15.769 --> 00:49:19.130the common weeks months. But yeah, so we appreciate all those who have75900:49:19.329 --> 00:49:22.409listened in it and we appreciate youjoining in with us. Appreciate you,76000:49:22.530 --> 00:49:24.280Devin, coming for you know howto get in touch with us if you've76100:49:24.280 --> 00:49:27.519listened to the PODCAST, but I'llmention it again. You can get in76200:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.039touch with me, D parks,at cities for Life Dot orgcom cities for76300:49:31.239 --> 00:49:36.519the number four, lifecom. Youget touched with Vicki vcassi, org at76400:49:36.559 --> 00:49:39.469cities for lifecom. Our website isCharlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org.76500:49:39.989 --> 00:49:44.630And then we have again, aswe mentioned often, national website to help76600:49:44.750 --> 00:49:47.309just chant, train and equip sidewallcounselors, because that's I think that's that's76700:49:47.349 --> 00:49:50.670our calling, that's what we do. I think we do it pretty well,76800:49:50.989 --> 00:49:55.019and that is www dot sidewalks,the number for lifecom, and that's76900:49:55.019 --> 00:49:58.900just an equipping website. So youcan get on there and get some information77000:49:58.940 --> 00:50:02.699about sidewall counseling. Also send ussome some questions, maybe some things that77100:50:02.820 --> 00:50:07.010you some jet suggestions, things wecould do better on the podcast, questions77200:50:07.090 --> 00:50:10.369that we can answer, try toanswer guests that maybe we can have on77300:50:10.969 --> 00:50:15.090and and we'd love to hear fromyou guys on that end. But other77400:50:15.170 --> 00:50:20.690than that, we appreciate you listening. And God, lets use mil use77500:50:20.889 --> 00:50:39.389me, give me, give me, it will cost me my life,77600:50:43.869 --> 00:50:45.710but not things too prescious inside