Do Unborn Babies Go To Heaven?

WEBVTT100:00:00.560 --> 00:00:06.440I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord,200:00:06.919 --> 00:00:10.910I am yours. Welcome to theGospel Center per life podcast. In300:00:10.990 --> 00:00:15.390this episode we're going to ask andanswer the question, hopefully, do unborn400:00:15.429 --> 00:00:20.109children go to heaven? This isan important theological question, so stay tuned.500:00:23.660 --> 00:02:20.379I felt your past touch your heartgetting to go to heaven. Okay,600:02:20.539 --> 00:02:22.620in the scripture, and I thinkwe can kind of build a case.700:02:22.939 --> 00:02:24.620Yeah, that that that, Ithink, is both of our our800:02:24.699 --> 00:02:30.289feelings as we have delved through thescripture. So you know, and I900:02:30.889 --> 00:02:35.610I took some notes here and andthere are some verses that I think are1000:02:35.689 --> 00:02:39.090good premise versus, yeah, forus to look at him. One of1100:02:39.129 --> 00:02:46.159those is genesis eighteen, twenty five, okay, and I have the end1200:02:46.240 --> 00:02:50.639of that verse. I don't thinkthis is the full verse, but shall1300:02:51.000 --> 00:02:55.080not the judge of all the earthdeal justly? Yes, is speaking about1400:02:55.159 --> 00:03:00.110God, and the reason that that'ssuch an important first I think in this1500:03:00.310 --> 00:03:07.629subject is because this subject really doesgo to the character of God. Yeah,1600:03:07.909 --> 00:03:16.419would a just, righteous God condemnan infant or an unborn baby to1700:03:16.539 --> 00:03:20.699how? Yeah, you know,I think that's the understanding that people need1800:03:20.780 --> 00:03:25.139to have. I've had conversations withpeople and I've seen facebook postings from people1900:03:25.659 --> 00:03:29.409that, you know, I'm like, what the world's going on here?2000:03:29.449 --> 00:03:31.090You know, people say that.You know, for people say that we2100:03:31.169 --> 00:03:37.210need to be at the abortion clinicsbecause unborn babies go to hell and part2200:03:37.250 --> 00:03:42.520of our intervention there's not just savingthe lives of unborn children but also saving2300:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.360them from from Hell, and thatreally rubs me the wrong way because I'm2400:03:46.400 --> 00:03:52.039like, what in the world likethat? That doesn't seem to be biblical.2500:03:52.120 --> 00:03:57.430It doesn't seem to to accurate,accurately convey the character of God as2600:03:57.469 --> 00:04:02.509I see it in the scripture andand it just offends my sensitivities. But2700:04:02.830 --> 00:04:06.550again, I don't want to bejust driven emotionally. Right, you're making2800:04:06.590 --> 00:04:11.259God look bad. I want tobe driven by what let the truth is,2900:04:11.340 --> 00:04:15.139what actually is, is true aboutwhat God's words say. Right,3000:04:15.539 --> 00:04:17.860right. You know another thing,and we've dealt with this, and I3100:04:18.459 --> 00:04:24.810forget exactly what podcast. Well,we early on, I believe, we3200:04:24.970 --> 00:04:28.449talked about some of the pro choicearguments and that sort of thing, and3300:04:28.569 --> 00:04:31.449we mention this subject and we've heardit from prochoice people. If all of3400:04:31.529 --> 00:04:35.410these babies are going to heaven,then why on the world are you guys3500:04:35.569 --> 00:04:40.720trying to stop them from being aboarded? Because this is just a fast way3600:04:40.759 --> 00:04:43.759to get them to heaven. Right. You're kind of showing the flip side3700:04:43.920 --> 00:04:48.839of this argument. On one hand, it it is this incredible, Wady,3800:04:49.240 --> 00:04:56.870discouraging, depressing thought that we arewatching three thousand and twenty forty souls3900:04:57.350 --> 00:05:00.910condemned, yeah, every day.If this is true, that they don't4000:05:00.910 --> 00:05:03.470go to heaven, yeah, thatthey're going to hell. You know,4100:05:03.670 --> 00:05:08.860then I can't imagine not just weepingon the sidewalk every day, and I4200:05:08.899 --> 00:05:11.579don't know how I could be there. And then, on the other hand,4300:05:11.980 --> 00:05:15.420those are saying ad's no big deal, these are all going to heaven4400:05:15.459 --> 00:05:17.819anyway. Right, why don't youjust go home and drink coffee and and4500:05:18.060 --> 00:05:21.850have a Bon Boux? I know, I know one guy had put on4600:05:23.009 --> 00:05:25.930facebook and when three of that Iwas watching. You know, if if4700:05:25.970 --> 00:05:29.490all unborn babies go to heaven andthen when, we shouldn't even be out4800:05:29.490 --> 00:05:32.370there because after all, it's thiscould be the biggest evangelical revival in the4900:05:32.449 --> 00:05:36.439history of humanity, because we've murderedsixty five million of them. We've sent5000:05:36.560 --> 00:05:41.879sixty five million of them directly exactlyheaven, and I'm like, okay,5100:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.879this is just a twist of wayto look at it really and it's,5200:05:44.920 --> 00:05:46.920I think, an umbiblical way andwe'll get into this some the scriptures.5300:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.870But we also need to have inour mind because I know that there are5400:05:49.910 --> 00:05:55.069folks that will flippantly say, andI've heard this, that you know,5500:05:55.470 --> 00:05:57.949we have no reason to believe theseunborn babies are going to heaven. And5600:05:59.269 --> 00:06:02.110understand what you're saying there the understandwhen we're talking about the judgment of God5700:06:02.589 --> 00:06:05.019and we're talking about people going tohell. You know, there's this notion5800:06:05.139 --> 00:06:09.699you God doesn't send anyone to hell. We send ourselves to hell. I5900:06:09.779 --> 00:06:13.019understand what they're saying, right.We make decisions to reject the Gospel,6000:06:13.339 --> 00:06:15.540to sin. Our sin is whatleads us to to the judgment of God.6100:06:15.819 --> 00:06:19.370But understand, folks, when you'retalking about the idea that God puts6200:06:19.410 --> 00:06:24.490any anyone goes to hell, thatGod is the one putting them there.6300:06:25.209 --> 00:06:29.370God puts people in Him. It'slike, before we started the PODCAST,6400:06:29.449 --> 00:06:34.199I'm mention it's kind of like ajailer, a police officer puts someone into6500:06:34.240 --> 00:06:38.160jail, right, because they've committeda crime. Okay, they don't put6600:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.839themselves in jail. Police officer actuallyhas to get them and put them in6700:06:41.879 --> 00:06:46.120jail. Right, biblically speaking,it is God himself who flings people into6800:06:46.189 --> 00:06:49.430hell, into the fires of Hell. So if you are making an argument,6900:06:50.069 --> 00:06:54.430and I'm not just appealing on emotion, I am sort of, but7000:06:54.509 --> 00:06:58.389I'm just talking biblically here. Asfar as who puts who where, if7100:06:58.430 --> 00:07:00.699you're going to make an argument thatGod that unborn babies go to hell,7200:07:00.740 --> 00:07:08.620understand you're saying that God puts unbornchildren and puts infants in Hell. Right,7300:07:08.980 --> 00:07:12.420it's not just them going there bydefault, as far as I mean.7400:07:12.540 --> 00:07:14.860Right, be course we believe thatpeople by De Fault or sin.7500:07:14.980 --> 00:07:17.810Right, right, but God's puttingthem there. Yeah, and so,7600:07:18.089 --> 00:07:20.970as the just judge of all theearth, exactly. And so thinking about7700:07:21.009 --> 00:07:25.610that, I have often heard us, I'm sure you have well adjust,7800:07:25.769 --> 00:07:30.959God would never put some one inhell to suffer for all eternity. Yeah,7900:07:31.480 --> 00:07:35.680this is different. This is differentas you're looking at the character of8000:07:35.800 --> 00:07:42.879God, and it's different based onwhat conclusion we come to. Really regarding.8100:07:42.959 --> 00:07:50.069Are these babies innocent? Okay,are they sinners? What? Are8200:07:50.149 --> 00:07:55.389they right and and that's that.That's, I think, really important,8300:07:56.470 --> 00:08:01.939and that's kind of leads to thesecond premise scripture, looky, that I8400:08:03.019 --> 00:08:05.579wanted to bring up to the firstone, was that, with the first8500:08:05.699 --> 00:08:07.620God speaking of Abraham, shall notthe judge of all the Earth do right?8600:08:07.740 --> 00:08:13.050Okay, yeah, and that hischaracters he will do right. Okay,8700:08:13.250 --> 00:08:16.170he will. We can trust hewill judge justly. He would judge8800:08:16.209 --> 00:08:20.129rightly. I think he will alwaysdo what is right. Is What when?8900:08:20.129 --> 00:08:22.689Yeah, I mean, may I'llsay just simply put scripturally, God9000:08:22.810 --> 00:08:26.160cannot do that which is against hisnature. Okay, you know. And9100:08:26.319 --> 00:08:30.399so God's nature, you know,God is not a man that he should9200:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.480lie. It's not that God doesn'twant to lie. Yeah, it's not.9300:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.600Want to put human terminology on Godin this sense, but, for9400:08:37.639 --> 00:08:41.149lack of a better term, it'snot within God's capacity to lie right like9500:08:41.629 --> 00:08:46.230he can't. Not that he doesn'twant to. Yeah, he just can't9600:08:46.309 --> 00:08:48.590write because he is truth itself rightcompletely. In the same way, you9700:08:48.789 --> 00:08:54.269cannot do that which is unjust.Correctly, it's just not within the realm9800:08:54.350 --> 00:08:58.500of possibility. Yeah, because heis the just God. Right. So,9900:08:58.179 --> 00:09:01.059in terms of our infants, innocent, and I'm not going to answer10000:09:01.100 --> 00:09:03.659that question yet. I think thatby the end of for in question,10100:09:03.740 --> 00:09:07.860it is very important and I thinkthat by the end, I think we'll10200:09:07.899 --> 00:09:11.570have a better understanding after we've gonethrough the scripture, hopefully now. Just10300:09:11.850 --> 00:09:13.450this little caveat I think we needto put out there, yeah, is10400:09:13.570 --> 00:09:20.450that we are not the intellectual phologiansright, that we might put ourselves out10500:09:20.450 --> 00:09:24.759to breaking, that we are notthe mean. I'm sure many of you10600:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.039think we're like top of the wrongtheologians were not, you think some people10700:09:28.120 --> 00:09:33.080think that that's the probably don't.Actually, hopefully they don't, but we10800:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.240do try to think these things forbiblically and talking through Bilic biblically. And10900:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.029if nothing else, guys, thisis encouraging you to get into the scriptures11000:09:39.070 --> 00:09:45.190exactly see what the Bible says aboutthis and if we're wrong about the conclusions11100:09:45.230 --> 00:09:46.789that were drawing, or at leastthe conclusions were trying to point you to,11200:09:48.629 --> 00:09:50.990then let us know we're wrong.You know, y'all put my email11300:09:50.990 --> 00:09:54.740address out there on regular basis.I'm on facebook. You're on facebook and11400:09:56.059 --> 00:09:58.179shoot me an email and say hey, you, have you considered this?11500:09:58.340 --> 00:10:00.779If you considered that? So theend of this thing. We're not claiming11600:10:00.820 --> 00:10:03.100to have it all figured out.Yeah, but I do think that we11700:10:03.179 --> 00:10:05.059have some stuff figured out. That, yeah, helpful. It's an honest11800:10:05.100 --> 00:10:11.570examination scripture. I think we aredoing an honest and and God doesn't just11900:10:11.809 --> 00:10:15.809put scripture out for the high andmighty and the people at the top of12000:10:15.850 --> 00:10:18.970the IQ level, right. Heput scripture out to guide all of us.12100:10:18.090 --> 00:10:24.320So the second scripture is Romans three, D and twenty three, for12200:10:24.440 --> 00:10:30.039all have sinned and fall short ofthe glory of God. All all have12300:10:30.159 --> 00:10:35.950sinned. It doesn't say all peopleover a certain age, it doesn't even12400:10:35.990 --> 00:10:41.870say all born people. It saysall have sinned and fall short of the12500:10:41.909 --> 00:10:43.470glory of God. So I thinkthat, you know, that's an important12600:10:43.470 --> 00:10:50.899thing to considers as we're thinking aboutthis issue of well, all have sinned.12700:10:50.940 --> 00:10:54.620Well, what does that mean?And the Bible? I think maybe,12800:10:54.659 --> 00:10:56.940Daniel, you could talk about this, certainly more depth than I could,12900:10:56.980 --> 00:11:03.100but scripture is pretty clear that weare all marked by, I guess,13000:11:03.299 --> 00:11:05.730bit or original sin. You wouldbe you may have a better term13100:11:05.850 --> 00:11:09.289than that, but I don't reallyhave a better term for that. I13200:11:09.370 --> 00:11:13.610mean that's been the term that thechurch has used, I believe, since13300:11:13.730 --> 00:11:18.279the very beginnings of these arguments inchurch history, and not just the Catholic13400:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.639Church, but you know, theEvangelical Church, the you know reformed church13500:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.480has used the term original sin.Yeah, and just is not a Biblical13600:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.840term, like you don't see itin the Bible, in the pages of13700:11:28.879 --> 00:11:33.990the Bible. Original Sin. Ithink the concept that's been put forth thanks13800:11:35.230 --> 00:11:39.269you know, a biblical concept thatall had sinned through the first at the13900:11:39.389 --> 00:11:41.309first atom. Yeah, well,the here's here's where the question lies,14000:11:41.950 --> 00:11:46.669I believe. Then we'll get insome of these scriptures that, you know,14100:11:46.830 --> 00:11:50.379the sort of I guess, cooperate. What I'm saying here is that14200:11:50.460 --> 00:11:58.059there's this concept for some folks thatoriginal sin implies original guilt. Like all14300:11:58.139 --> 00:12:01.809send in Adam this. The Biblesays that I'll send an Adam right.14400:12:01.090 --> 00:12:05.889Does that mean, though, allare guilty of Adam's sin? Okay,14500:12:05.529 --> 00:12:09.809that would be the first question becausethe way I see it, as I14600:12:09.889 --> 00:12:11.929dig into the Scriptures, and thereare certain scriptures that I think you're very14700:12:13.009 --> 00:12:18.480explicit, very plain about how guiltis incurred. Is that. Yes,14800:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.559we are all tainted with sin.We all have the propensity for sin.14900:12:22.759 --> 00:12:28.120I've explained it before. Like aan inescapable, inescapable genetic defect. We15000:12:28.240 --> 00:12:35.629all have that bend towards sin,given over to ourselves without the intervention of15100:12:35.750 --> 00:12:37.870God, we will all go intosin. We will all remain in sin.15200:12:39.070 --> 00:12:41.750You cannot rescue yourself from your sin. And it's and it's from early15300:12:41.870 --> 00:12:45.220on, and I want to justinterrupt here a second to bring that out.15400:12:45.220 --> 00:12:50.379In Psalm Five, the Bible revealswe are brought forth in iniquity.15500:12:50.899 --> 00:12:54.659So we bear whatever that is,that stain of original sin, from the15600:12:54.860 --> 00:13:05.009moment of our conception. Okay,okay. So so going from there,15700:13:05.210 --> 00:13:13.039than, what is our basis forclaiming that babies who die in infancy go15800:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.159to heaven? Yeah, they are. I mean we haven't yet claimed that15900:13:16.480 --> 00:13:18.279right. Well, well, haven'twe? Having given our position? Haven't16000:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.600given our so, but but I'lljust go ahead and let the cat out16100:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.960of the bag. That is myposition. Unborn Children in infants, yeah,16200:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.509do go to have it. SoUm, that's at least my belief.16300:13:28.629 --> 00:13:30.629Okay, so let's go to averse, okay, to try and16400:13:30.750 --> 00:13:35.669like support now we're we're kind ofgoing with right. So, Second Corinthians16500:13:35.830 --> 00:13:39.830five ten. Okay, okay,and and you. We want to turn16600:13:39.909 --> 00:13:41.940to that? Yeah, that wouldbe good, because there's a couple of16700:13:41.860 --> 00:13:46.419phrases from that verse that that Ithink are really important. Okay, said16800:13:46.460 --> 00:13:52.700Corinthians Five, Second Corinthians five andten. Yet I certainly did not mean16900:13:52.299 --> 00:13:56.450that with it sexually immoral. People'sat the right one of this world judged17000:13:58.090 --> 00:14:00.690it. Go to the part theBible teaches that we are judged on the17100:14:00.730 --> 00:14:03.409basis of our deeds committed in thebody. Is that in that one?17200:14:03.450 --> 00:14:05.129Did I give you the wrong verse? Yeah, I think you gave me17300:14:05.169 --> 00:14:09.649the wrong Grad. Okay, willforgive you because you're tainted with the regulation17400:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.240and we'll get the correct verse.Okay, we'll get the correct verse,17500:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.440but the the because Second Grethians,five Tennessee, not first a second.17600:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.399I'm sorry, I gave you thewrong number. Forgive you for the okay,17700:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.269all right, so it says forwe missed all appear and see.17800:14:24.350 --> 00:14:26.789Listen, I should have known that. That's scripture. Okay, yeah,17900:14:28.549 --> 00:14:33.470we blame Daniel instead of for wemust all appear before the judgment seat of18000:14:33.470 --> 00:14:37.590Christ that each one may receive thethings done in the body according to what18100:14:37.669 --> 00:14:41.139he has done, whether good orbad. Yeah, okay, so that18200:14:41.340 --> 00:14:43.940first part of the phrase, andlet me keep going there. Okay,18300:14:45.019 --> 00:14:48.340against betters. Okays, knowing,therefore, the terror of the Lord,18400:14:48.460 --> 00:14:52.929to this God that we serve isa terrible God in some sense, you18500:14:52.009 --> 00:14:56.330know, is there's terror to behad. So there is judges. No18600:14:56.409 --> 00:15:00.009One's knowing it. Yeah, that'simportant to okay, knowing, therefore,18700:15:00.009 --> 00:15:01.970the terror of the Lord, wepersuade men. So this is of course,18800:15:03.009 --> 00:15:07.129US as Christians, won the persuadepeople to turn away from the terror18900:15:07.129 --> 00:15:09.720of the Lord, the judgment ofLord. But we are wellknown to God19000:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.559and also trust that we were wellknownin your consciences. So anyway, just19100:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.399okay, good of the Lord partthere. Okay, because no one is19200:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.279saying, at least from our part, that there isn't a judgment of God.19300:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.269There are certainly judgment of God forSin. The question is is,19400:15:24.870 --> 00:15:28.950does the judgment of God abide onUnborn Children and infants? Right, okay,19500:15:30.190 --> 00:15:33.149so let's kind of Parse that.First. It says we were we19600:15:33.230 --> 00:15:37.460are to be judged on the basisof our deeds committed in the body.19700:15:37.620 --> 00:15:46.820Yeah, okay. And so we'renot judged by on the basis of original19800:15:46.860 --> 00:15:54.809sin, but for our sins committedin the body during our lifetimes. Okay,19900:15:54.970 --> 00:16:00.769okay. So, and that correctme if I'm wrong, but is20000:16:00.850 --> 00:16:08.759there any point in scripture where weare said to be judged based on original20100:16:08.840 --> 00:16:15.320sin, on the stain of sin, as supposed to the act of sin?20200:16:15.879 --> 00:16:18.669You know, it says in FirstJohn, I believe it's chapter three.20300:16:18.750 --> 00:16:22.190HMM, it seems to be.I think. I don't know if20400:16:22.230 --> 00:16:25.549anyone to argue with this, butall through the scriptures this idea that we're20500:16:25.789 --> 00:16:30.070judge for our sin. Like peopledon't go to hell because there's a false20600:16:30.149 --> 00:16:33.659concept that people go to hell becausethey don't accept Jesus. People don't go20700:16:33.740 --> 00:16:37.059to hell because they don't accept Jesus. People go to hell because they are20800:16:37.179 --> 00:16:42.139sinners. Sin, they violated God'slaw and therefore they deserve the judgment of20900:16:42.220 --> 00:16:47.570God, Jesus blood. It's pitationfor that sin. So it's not that21000:16:47.690 --> 00:16:51.649you don't it's like, well,people get to jail because they don't believe21100:16:51.690 --> 00:16:53.809the judge and know that's not true. They go to jail because they've committed21200:16:53.809 --> 00:16:57.809a crime. So there's that thatpremise there. Yeah, but the scripture21300:16:57.929 --> 00:17:02.200in that was referred to in FirstJohn, Chapter Three, it says sin21400:17:02.960 --> 00:17:07.240is lawlessness. So sin is actuallya translation. Could be sin is a21500:17:07.279 --> 00:17:11.359violation of the law. So it'sa volitional thing. As far as the21600:17:11.480 --> 00:17:15.400sins like this talk about here,sins committed in the body, it's a21700:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.349decision that you make to do athing that you know is wrong, because21800:17:18.390 --> 00:17:21.990we all have a conscience. Right, no, right from wrong. So21900:17:22.150 --> 00:17:23.470when we sin, when we lie, we cheat, when we steal,22000:17:25.349 --> 00:17:29.150kill someone, you're doing it,you know. Some said, actually recomfort22100:17:29.150 --> 00:17:32.380uses this. He says you know, you do it against your conscience.22200:17:32.940 --> 00:17:36.900Conscience, you've break the word down. With con is with science, is22300:17:36.980 --> 00:17:41.059knowledge. You do it with knowledge. You violate your conscience that it's wrong.22400:17:41.660 --> 00:17:45.009People don't sin unless they know thatit's wrong. Right, right,22500:17:45.170 --> 00:17:48.690which brings up all kinds of points. But but first of all, so22600:17:48.809 --> 00:17:55.329it's an act God your body.That is against God's law. Yeah,22700:17:55.769 --> 00:18:02.279do infants do that? And II would be hard pressed to say infants22800:18:02.279 --> 00:18:04.759to do that. I don't thinkthey do. I don't think they can.22900:18:07.519 --> 00:18:11.400So that that's the main point.We're going to get to. The23000:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.990second point I'm going to make alittle bit later in more detail. But23100:18:17.269 --> 00:18:22.150not only do I they don't.They just don't. They're especially an unborn23200:18:22.269 --> 00:18:26.630infant. Yeah, what sin canyou commit in the kicking your mother from23300:18:26.630 --> 00:18:32.220the inside out? Really? Butthe second part of that is that it23400:18:32.420 --> 00:18:37.019has to be, like you said, with knowledge. Does an infant have23500:18:38.099 --> 00:18:44.650the moral discernment, the to choose? Yeah, because it's a choice sinisen23600:18:44.769 --> 00:18:48.250change. Yeah, in agreement,but I'm very invalue my head. Right.23700:18:48.369 --> 00:18:52.289Doesn't infant have the ability, eventhe the moral, the cognitive ability,23800:18:52.450 --> 00:18:56.759to make a choice either for sinor for good? So keep that23900:18:56.799 --> 00:18:57.799kind of in the back of yourmind, folks, but you know,24000:18:57.920 --> 00:19:03.720we'll kind of get back to thatlater. But there's a really interesting text24100:19:03.880 --> 00:19:06.920that I was said in here.Again, here's the thing that we can't24200:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.190we can't fall prey to our emotionsin this MMM, either way. Right,24300:19:11.230 --> 00:19:14.990right, yeah, this this ideathat kids are absolutely innocent and they've24400:19:15.069 --> 00:19:17.950done anohing wrong because, after all, they're cute, you know, right24500:19:18.069 --> 00:19:19.750and right. So they can't havedone anything wrong in the course. The24600:19:19.789 --> 00:19:23.740other side of the coin is we'veall sinned in their infants are wicked and24700:19:25.019 --> 00:19:30.220adults are we can whatever. Okay, let's stop and let's see what Saith24800:19:30.660 --> 00:19:36.099the scripture. What does the Biblesay about the innocence of Infants, of24900:19:36.180 --> 00:19:40.009children? I mean we have alittle bit, I think, in the25000:19:40.049 --> 00:19:44.609scriptures about unborn children in the womb. We have we have enough information to25100:19:44.650 --> 00:19:47.849the scripture to say that there's valuableas born children correct. You know,25200:19:47.930 --> 00:19:49.970we have the Luke passage that refersto an unborn child just as much as,25300:19:51.289 --> 00:19:52.400you know, the same terminology asa born child. So we have25400:19:52.519 --> 00:19:56.839that. But as we're looking throughthe scriptures and we see what say the25500:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.200scripture about this, again, wecan't be driven by motion at the look25600:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.400at what the Scripture says and,you know, let's just dig in some25700:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.190well, and so some of thescriptures, and I was going to go25800:20:07.349 --> 00:20:12.390to a little story in in theBible that I think is really, really25900:20:12.509 --> 00:20:18.630interesting, but you brought up ourchildren innocent. Right to talk about innocence,26000:20:18.829 --> 00:20:25.099that term is is is important,and so I did a word search26100:20:25.460 --> 00:20:29.900of in the Bible of innocent children. I think was what I put in26200:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.420in the search and I came upwith many, many scriptures, so I'll26300:20:33.460 --> 00:20:34.579just read them to you and maybeyou can talk about them a little.26400:20:34.579 --> 00:20:38.529Okay. And in proverb six,sixteen to seventeen, there are six things26500:20:38.609 --> 00:20:41.690the Lord hates, seven that arean abomination to him, haughty eyes,26600:20:41.730 --> 00:20:48.730a lying tongue and hands that shedinnocent blood. So the word innocent is26700:20:48.769 --> 00:20:51.960used, and we talked about thisa little. Is that necessarily children?26800:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.240Yeah, I mean not always right. Would rightly right? It could be26900:20:56.680 --> 00:21:02.440so innocent blood it. It's thatinnocent is applied as a term to someone27000:21:02.880 --> 00:21:11.150who has not committed the the actwhich someone has harmed them for committing.27100:21:11.349 --> 00:21:14.910Right, they're innocent of what whatever. They don't know if it's in every27200:21:14.990 --> 00:21:18.900instance. I think there are someinstances where innocent, the word innocent,27300:21:19.019 --> 00:21:26.700is implying to someone who's morally nottainted correct right by volitional decisions. But27400:21:26.740 --> 00:21:30.099I think it could be a broaderterm just means that person's you know,27500:21:30.180 --> 00:21:33.690they're innocent. They didn't they?Why'd you hurt that is a person,27600:21:33.089 --> 00:21:37.650right, you know. Okay.So in job two thirty there's a verse.27700:21:37.769 --> 00:21:42.490He delivers even the one who isnot innocent, who will be delivered27800:21:42.569 --> 00:21:47.920through the cleanness of your hands.When he says he delivers, and that's27900:21:48.160 --> 00:21:52.279God delivers, even the one whois not innocent. Use It, because28000:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.119he uses the word even. Weknow that. Then presumably there are those28100:21:57.200 --> 00:22:02.430who are innocent. Yeah, right, okay, so just keep that in28200:22:02.509 --> 00:22:06.190the back of your mind. Sothey're there. There are innocent is used28300:22:06.230 --> 00:22:10.390to describe someone. Yeah, attimes in the Bible. Yeah, okay,28400:22:10.829 --> 00:22:18.619here's one that is very important interms of those who say that because28500:22:18.660 --> 00:22:26.619Adams send the baby there for orthe UN and born have sinned because of28600:22:26.660 --> 00:22:30.890the stain of original sin. Yeah, Ezekiel eighteen twenty, the soul who28700:22:32.089 --> 00:22:37.769sins shall die. Yeah, okay. The son shall not suffer for the28800:22:37.849 --> 00:22:42.329iniquity of the father, nor thefather suffer for the iniquity of the son.28900:22:44.519 --> 00:22:48.839So yeah, I mean that scripturethere is expect explicitly talking about this29000:22:49.039 --> 00:22:53.200idea of guilt. You know.I mean basically, you could read that29100:22:53.359 --> 00:22:59.990passage and say the son is notguilty because of the father's crime and the29200:23:00.109 --> 00:23:03.390father is not guilty because of theson's crime. Right, each one the29300:23:03.470 --> 00:23:06.990soul that sins, right, it'sguilty. You know, it shall die,29400:23:07.190 --> 00:23:11.859she'll suffer consequences. Yeah, sois the baby guilty before the baby29500:23:12.099 --> 00:23:18.460has any opportunity or knowledge to beable to commit sin in the body?29600:23:18.460 --> 00:23:22.779Yeah, and I just cannot seethat. Biblically, had a baby,29700:23:22.900 --> 00:23:29.329unborn child is is guilty of ofsin? Right, and and yet,29800:23:29.410 --> 00:23:34.170and of course I'm we're on thesame page on this. Okay, Jesus29900:23:34.250 --> 00:23:41.240certainly speaks about children, yeah,in a very unique and really different and30000:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.799loving way than he speaks of anyother age group. Children, babies and30100:23:45.880 --> 00:23:52.079infants in Matthew, eighteen ten.See that you do not despise one of30200:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.670these little ones, for I tellyou that in heaven their angels always see30300:23:56.750 --> 00:24:00.670the face of my father who isin heaven, and I know we talked30400:24:00.670 --> 00:24:03.750about this a little. You saidit's kind of like a difficult first yeah,30500:24:03.109 --> 00:24:07.910you know, not not in thesense that Jesus is looking at little30600:24:07.950 --> 00:24:11.500children as differently, as different thanadults, but this whole idea of their30700:24:11.579 --> 00:24:15.980angels. You know what, Idon't get that, but but it's it's30800:24:15.259 --> 00:24:19.700that don't despise these little ones.He doesn't say don't despise the adults.30900:24:19.940 --> 00:24:23.809Right. Yeah, says don't despisethe little ones and then gives the reason31000:24:23.849 --> 00:24:30.410why he's treating little ones differently.Yeah, ones are different, unique can31100:24:30.609 --> 00:24:34.009for whatever reason. Here's one thatI really like. First, Corinthians,31200:24:34.049 --> 00:24:37.450fourteen, twenty, brothers, donot be children. In your thinking,31300:24:38.119 --> 00:24:44.799be infants in evil, but inyour thinking be mature. Yeah, why31400:24:44.839 --> 00:24:51.039does he tell us to be infantsin evil? That makes you if infants31500:24:51.039 --> 00:24:56.230are evil. Yeah, and standsour evil. It makes no sense.31600:24:56.390 --> 00:24:59.069I mean, and this is thisis one of these instances, something I31700:24:59.109 --> 00:25:00.309was going to say earlier is that, you know, we have to let31800:25:00.349 --> 00:25:04.269the scripture define terms for us.We have to let the scripture give us31900:25:04.309 --> 00:25:08.259explanations. We can't take, youknow, whatever system of theology that we32000:25:10.299 --> 00:25:15.059hold to or system with soteriology thatwe hold to, and interpose it or32100:25:15.180 --> 00:25:18.819impose it on the scripture. Thatis, we have to see what the32200:25:18.900 --> 00:25:22.809Bible, as he sayst so somepeople can take this concept of original sin32300:25:22.890 --> 00:25:26.730that they've been all and they understandin in order for their theological framework or32400:25:26.730 --> 00:25:30.849whatever to work. Then this definitionof original sin has to be the case,32500:25:32.289 --> 00:25:36.519Ieye, that children in the wombare guilty of Adam sin. But32600:25:36.759 --> 00:25:40.200is that really what the Scripture teaches? Like? We can't let you know32700:25:40.319 --> 00:25:44.759whatever ideas we might have, whateversystem we might hold to, and try32800:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.279to stay consistent with that system andthrow out the plane teaching of scripture.32900:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.230And I think as we continue togo on through we'll see the plane teaching33000:25:52.309 --> 00:25:59.950of scripture is that infants or viewdifferently than adults. Right with, children33100:25:59.990 --> 00:26:04.059are viewed differently than adults are.About the father by Jesus, by the33200:26:04.099 --> 00:26:07.140Holy Spirit, has spelled out inhis word, right, right. So,33300:26:07.180 --> 00:26:11.900yeah, let's continue with that.Okay. So, Luke, eighteen,33400:26:11.059 --> 00:26:15.140fifteen to seventeen, this is whenthey're bringing the children to Jesus.33500:26:15.140 --> 00:26:19.089Yeah, now they were bringing eveninfants to him that he might touch them,33600:26:19.329 --> 00:26:23.089and when the disciples saw it theyrebuked them. But Jesus called them33700:26:23.170 --> 00:26:29.210to him, saying let the childrencome to me and do not hinder them,33800:26:29.650 --> 00:26:33.039for to such belong the Kingdom ofGod. Yeah, truly, I33900:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.960say to you, whoever does notreceive the Kingdom of God like a child34000:26:37.519 --> 00:26:44.279shall not enter it. Yeah,so again, children are special. Jesus34100:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.150wants the children to come to him. The children want to come to him34200:26:48.230 --> 00:26:55.869and and he's even saying for tosuch be long the Kingdom of God.34300:26:56.150 --> 00:26:59.990Yeah, that's Bett. That's athat's luke eighteen, duke eighteen, fifteen34400:27:00.029 --> 00:27:03.180to seventeen. Yeah, before wementioned Matthew Ten. What's that matter?34500:27:03.500 --> 00:27:07.539Right, the Matthew Eighteen Ten meagic, Matthew, that you do not despise34600:27:07.619 --> 00:27:10.700one of them before that. Idon't know if you have that on the34700:27:10.900 --> 00:27:12.700list of scriptures that you have.This is another important scripture. Okay,34800:27:12.779 --> 00:27:18.650Matthew Eighteen, okay, in versethree it says, Surely, I say34900:27:18.690 --> 00:27:22.329to you, unless you were convertedand become as little children, you will35000:27:22.329 --> 00:27:25.329by no means enter the Kingdom ofyeah, that's pretty strong, isn't it?35100:27:25.369 --> 00:27:29.890So it's like this, this requirementto even enter in the Kingdom of35200:27:29.970 --> 00:27:33.599Heaven as you have to be convertedand become as little children. And so35300:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.720I think it's you know, thisis a study for you guys that are35400:27:36.759 --> 00:27:38.839listening find out what that means.What does it mean to become like a35500:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.920little child? Yeah, in theBible, I think tall tells us,35600:27:44.039 --> 00:27:48.430you know, innocence. It talksof innocent innocence. Yeah, because being35700:27:48.150 --> 00:27:52.150full of guile and deceit. Youknow, now here's here's something we had35800:27:52.150 --> 00:27:56.150to understand, because we all willthink, well, my kids are full35900:27:56.190 --> 00:27:59.380of gall and to see. Yeah, they learned that. They certainly do,36000:28:00.140 --> 00:28:03.059and they probably learned it from you, learn it from me, bad36100:28:03.059 --> 00:28:10.660leg and from the world, andthey certainly do have that propensity, like36200:28:10.859 --> 00:28:14.769we said, like certainly believe thedoctor original say, in the stain of36300:28:14.849 --> 00:28:18.609sand, the flesh that we allhave, that we all, you know,36400:28:18.809 --> 00:28:22.289have to fight. Only by thegrace and the power of God can36500:28:22.329 --> 00:28:26.329we win that battle. Yeah,but it's again, it's a PROPENSI.36600:28:26.369 --> 00:28:30.759It's like this genetic defect that weall have that's inescapable except for the intervention36700:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.480of God, right through the powerof the Holy Spirit and the proclamation of36800:28:33.519 --> 00:28:37.000the Gospel. All Right, allright, Matthew, hundred and twenty five,36900:28:37.079 --> 00:28:38.759I thank you, Father Lord ofHeaven and Earth, that you've hidden37000:28:38.759 --> 00:28:44.990these things from the wise and understandingand revealed them to little children. Yeah,37100:28:45.190 --> 00:28:52.829again, little children are special,are different and and have knowledge,37200:28:52.150 --> 00:28:57.900have knowledge of God, that thatwe adults apparently don't have. Your need37300:28:59.099 --> 00:29:03.500or and I think it is thatsimple, innocent. Yeah, one of37400:29:03.539 --> 00:29:07.579the things that speaks to and Ibelieve in that passage in Matthew Chapter Eighteen,37500:29:07.619 --> 00:29:11.490there may be another New Testament Crossreference there. But Jesus says,37600:29:11.490 --> 00:29:17.730unless you humble yourself and become aslittle children, you cannot see the Kingdom37700:29:17.730 --> 00:29:19.609of God. Yeah, yeah,I do have that here yet. What's37800:29:19.650 --> 00:29:23.400good? It's so that is mattheweighteen, two to six. Whoever humbles37900:29:23.440 --> 00:29:27.240himself like this child is the greatestin the Kingdom of Heaven. Yeah,38000:29:27.279 --> 00:29:33.640whoever receives one such child in myname receives me. But whoever causes one38100:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.279of these little ones who believe inme to sin, it would be better38200:29:37.359 --> 00:29:40.750for him to have a great millstonefast around his neck. Yeah, and38300:29:40.910 --> 00:29:45.509so this, this definition or thisidea of of childlike faith, the war,38400:29:47.349 --> 00:29:52.230childlike innocence, really has to dowith that word humility. HMM.38500:29:52.470 --> 00:29:55.779And if you think about the waythat children are, this is one of38600:29:55.779 --> 00:29:57.859the main points, the way thatchildren are there they're dependent. So this38700:29:57.940 --> 00:30:02.420is kind of like a free behere is not really focused on this subject38800:30:02.619 --> 00:30:04.180per se, but it will helpus all to understand that a child is38900:30:04.259 --> 00:30:10.049dependent upon its parents, right,and we are dependent upon the Lord.39000:30:10.130 --> 00:30:15.490We must humble ourselves and become aslittle children in innocence, like Paul says39100:30:15.690 --> 00:30:19.170in that Romans passage. Become innocent, as you know, in that sense,39200:30:19.690 --> 00:30:25.279but also humble that we need God. We need his totally despot were39300:30:25.279 --> 00:30:29.319typically depended on the end. Andand why would? Why would God keep39400:30:29.599 --> 00:30:33.440referring over and over and over again? We must become like little children,39500:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.910unless there was something about little childrenthat was pleasing to God, and sin39600:30:38.150 --> 00:30:44.190is not pleasing to God. Right. So this is another one where I39700:30:44.470 --> 00:30:49.259think the word innocent is pretty directlyapplied to children. Jeremiah, nineteen,39800:30:49.420 --> 00:30:53.220forty tow five, because the peoplehave forsaken me and a profane to this39900:30:53.380 --> 00:30:57.500place by making offreys offerings in itto other gods whom neither they, nor40000:30:57.539 --> 00:31:00.740their fathers, nor the king ofyou to have known, and because they40100:31:00.779 --> 00:31:06.690have filled this place with the bloodof innocence. Yeah, and built the40200:31:06.730 --> 00:31:11.289high places of Baal to burn theirsons in the fire as burnt offerings to40300:31:11.450 --> 00:31:15.690bay, all, which I didnot command or decree, nor did it40400:31:15.849 --> 00:31:19.759come to mind. So the burningof their sons, those innocent children,40500:31:21.279 --> 00:31:26.359was Um just a god hadn't evenit was so healing more yeah, not40600:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.000even never would he have brought thatto his mind, but it was something40700:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.549that human beings, yeah, cameup with. Yeah. And of course40800:31:33.950 --> 00:31:37.869what's explicit there is that, ofcourse, killing your sons and daughters and40900:31:38.269 --> 00:31:41.789offering them to this false God waswicked in the in the side of the41000:31:41.869 --> 00:31:45.470Lord, but also that these childrenwere innocent. Right, he points that41100:31:45.630 --> 00:31:51.220out in this passage. You have, you have filled this place with a41200:31:51.220 --> 00:31:55.740blood of the innocence, of innocence, right, right, innocent children,41300:31:55.819 --> 00:31:59.579children, yeah. So I thinkyou can make a very strong case that.41400:32:00.140 --> 00:32:04.769Well, not very strong maybe,but a strong case that certainly,41500:32:04.809 --> 00:32:07.970that children are different, that Jesusperceives the differently, that they are always41600:32:08.049 --> 00:32:15.210equated with, with innocence, yeah, and even called innocent. Yeah,41700:32:15.329 --> 00:32:22.480time. So here's this interesting passage. Okay, there's this is going through41800:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.839the biblical story of the Israelites Wanderingthrough the Wilderness for forty years and,41900:32:28.079 --> 00:32:30.349as as you know, if youknow that story, they grumbled, they42000:32:30.470 --> 00:32:35.990send there. That's so much inthat passage, or in that whole season42100:32:36.470 --> 00:32:39.869of God's dealing with humanity. Right, and especially in Israel, that has42200:32:40.390 --> 00:32:45.700I mean it's allegory really happened,but it's allegory for the spiritual walk in42300:32:45.700 --> 00:32:49.339the spiritual life and, yes,salvation. I think that is so critically42400:32:49.460 --> 00:32:52.619so can you point that out spacespeak a little bit about that, because42500:32:52.700 --> 00:32:54.740that's look, I mean even justthe deliverance from Egypt. You know what42600:32:54.980 --> 00:33:00.450is Egypt symbolizes sin and the world. You Egypt at that time was quite42700:33:00.490 --> 00:33:05.450possibly, I think, pretty prettyplainly seen in history. At that time42800:33:05.650 --> 00:33:08.809was the most powerful nation on theface of the planet. Yeah, and42900:33:09.529 --> 00:33:13.799you know, so symbolizes the world, the world system, and of course43000:33:13.880 --> 00:33:16.160we were all in sin and wrappedup in the world system. WHAT DOES43100:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.720MOSES DO? He comes and tellsthe world system, let my people go,43200:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.400you know, and comes and delivershis people. And even the Bible43300:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.509tells us that the passing through theRed Sea was almost like a symbol of43400:33:27.630 --> 00:33:30.869baptism for for us. As amatter of fact, in First Corinthians,43500:33:30.869 --> 00:33:37.549Chapter Ten, it tells us thatthese things that happen happened as example to43600:33:37.670 --> 00:33:40.069us. I'll read that real quickokay, that's a good and it says,43700:33:42.380 --> 00:33:45.700and it's talking about Christ being theRock and the Wilderness and the children43800:33:45.740 --> 00:33:49.900of Israel drinking from the rocks ismore of a brethern and do not want43900:33:49.900 --> 00:33:52.619you to be unaware that all ofour fathers were under the cloud at all,44000:33:52.700 --> 00:33:55.730passed under the sea, talking aboutthe Red Sea. All were baptizing44100:33:55.769 --> 00:34:00.170the Moses in the cloud and inthe seas. There's any just the word44200:34:00.210 --> 00:34:02.849Baptiste. Exactly, okay. Andall ate the same spiritual food, all44300:34:02.849 --> 00:34:07.450drink the same spiritual drink, forthey drank from the spiritual rock that followed44400:34:07.490 --> 00:34:09.960them. That rock was Christ.So this is a symbol, this rock44500:34:10.159 --> 00:34:14.519that you know Moses. This rockopened up and they drank from it.44600:34:14.840 --> 00:34:19.320He's telling us that symbol Christ,that was symbolic of Christ. Somebody may44700:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.920make the argument that that was Christfollowing them around in the Wilderness. We44800:34:22.960 --> 00:34:24.789won't go there, but you say, but with most of them God was44900:34:24.829 --> 00:34:28.949not well pleased, for their bodieswere scattered in the Wilderness. All these45000:34:29.030 --> 00:34:30.389things. This is the verse illsreally want to point out. For Six45100:34:30.550 --> 00:34:35.110of First Corinthians, chapter ten.Now all these things became our examples to45200:34:35.190 --> 00:34:38.019the intent that we should not lustafter the evil things as they also lusted.45300:34:38.139 --> 00:34:42.099So these things are our examples.So even though they really happen.45400:34:42.420 --> 00:34:46.179There's a lot of spiritual depth andallegory to that. Even in entering into45500:34:46.179 --> 00:34:50.579the promised land and crossing the Jordan. We have songs that we talk about45600:34:50.579 --> 00:34:53.690crossing the Jordan, entering the promisedland, this wondrous relationship with God.45700:34:53.969 --> 00:34:58.730Wondering in the Wilderness. Is isa picture. A lot of Christians are45800:34:58.849 --> 00:35:01.449wondering in the Wilderness. They've beendelivered from Egypt, but they're wondering in45900:35:01.530 --> 00:35:06.570the Wilderness. They're grumbling and they'recomplaining and they won't reach fully what God46000:35:06.690 --> 00:35:08.559wants them to reach. They won'treach promised land. They would so anyway.46100:35:08.559 --> 00:35:10.920Yeah, there's a lot there.There's a lot I could dig out46200:35:12.079 --> 00:35:15.719and we can't go there. Maybefor another time, but it's sort of46300:35:15.039 --> 00:35:17.400sets it up for what what you'regoing to share. Yeah, which is46400:35:17.599 --> 00:35:22.949so interesting. In Deuteronomy one hundredand thirty five, it says God is46500:35:23.429 --> 00:35:28.750saying now, not one of thesemen, this evil generation, they're on46600:35:28.750 --> 00:35:30.630the cusps by the way of enteringthe promised land. Yeah, when God46700:35:30.909 --> 00:35:35.190speaks to them, not one ofthese men, this evil generation, shall46800:35:35.230 --> 00:35:38.860see the good land which I sworeto give to your father's so they've wandered46900:35:38.940 --> 00:35:45.860forty years, they have sinned,and now they are not to enter God's47000:35:45.860 --> 00:35:50.170promised land. Yeah, but,and this is the really interesting part,47100:35:50.250 --> 00:35:52.969and do to Ronomy, one hundredand thirty nine, it says, moreover,47200:35:53.369 --> 00:35:59.489your little ones, who you saidwould become prey, and your sons,47300:35:59.849 --> 00:36:04.559who this day have no knowledge ofgood and evil, shall enter there47400:36:05.119 --> 00:36:08.199and I will give it to themand they shall possess it. Yes,47500:36:08.280 --> 00:36:17.710so look at this. God ExemptsChildren and Infants from that punishment. Yeah,47600:36:19.349 --> 00:36:23.030from not, from not and cheringhis presence. Yeah, Promised Land,47700:36:23.150 --> 00:36:27.989they are exempted. And why?Well, he tells them. That's47800:36:28.030 --> 00:36:30.469a good question. Als Us why, and God never tells us why.47900:36:31.110 --> 00:36:36.139Well, he does sometimes, sometimesit's rare. It is this tell he48000:36:36.219 --> 00:36:39.340often tells us how and who,but he doesn't often tell us why.48100:36:39.500 --> 00:36:46.019But he does here. He sayswho this day have no knowledge of good48200:36:46.329 --> 00:36:52.929and evil. Yeah, so theythey can't make a decision. They weren't48300:36:52.929 --> 00:36:58.250able to grumble in sin like theirelders. Yeah, they didn't. They48400:36:58.329 --> 00:37:01.599had not reached an age of moralreckoning, of moral reasoning yet, and48500:37:01.760 --> 00:37:07.239therefore, basically, he gives hima pass. Yeah, he extends grace.48600:37:07.639 --> 00:37:09.559I've heard people say, well,the blood of Jesus is required for48700:37:09.639 --> 00:37:14.480all tender heaven. Jesus does sayI am the way, the truth of48800:37:14.599 --> 00:37:17.750the life. Well, HOW DOWE ENTER TO HEAVEN? It's through His48900:37:19.150 --> 00:37:23.550grace and through his mercy, andhe appears to the blood of Christ and49000:37:23.750 --> 00:37:30.659through the blood of Christ, andhe appears to have extended that atoning blood,49100:37:30.139 --> 00:37:34.739is His grace and his mercy,to these children, or they wouldn't49200:37:34.739 --> 00:37:38.219be entering the promised land either.And it's clearly only the children, the49300:37:38.380 --> 00:37:44.849children and the infants, and thenCaliban, who were the two? And49400:37:45.090 --> 00:37:50.849and they will and Joshua, yeah, where the only the only adults that49500:37:50.929 --> 00:37:53.809I you know, didn't grubble,who had a different speed? Yeah,49600:37:53.969 --> 00:38:01.599they had a different spirit. Sothis also then kind of segues into a49700:38:01.719 --> 00:38:07.519really important point in thinking about.DO BABIES GO TO HEAVEN? And we've49800:38:07.559 --> 00:38:15.230been mentioning it, but do theyhave the are they accountable right for for49900:38:15.389 --> 00:38:20.150sin? Yeah, did. CanThey be accountable for sin? And this50000:38:20.590 --> 00:38:22.230I got this and I want tojust read it because it's a I think50100:38:22.269 --> 00:38:28.019it's a good passage. It's fromback to the Bible article from February,50200:38:28.340 --> 00:38:30.739two thousand and nineteen, and thetitle of that article is is my child50300:38:30.900 --> 00:38:36.420in heaven? Yeah, and Ireally liked it. So some people say50400:38:36.460 --> 00:38:39.659that there's an age when children becomeaccountable for their actions, but the Bible50500:38:39.860 --> 00:38:45.769does not mention an age of accountability. Children are culpable for sin when they50600:38:45.889 --> 00:38:51.010draw their first breath, but theyare they accountable at that moment as well?50700:38:51.329 --> 00:38:55.559I don't think so. We mustmake a distinction between culpability, which50800:38:55.599 --> 00:39:01.599is liability for their sin nature,and accountability, which is liability for their50900:39:01.760 --> 00:39:07.119sinful actions. Is A has said, for before the child shall know how51000:39:07.159 --> 00:39:10.230to refuse the evil and choose thegood, the land that you dread will51100:39:10.230 --> 00:39:15.030be forsaken by both her kings.That's as a sixteen. Yeah, so51200:39:15.510 --> 00:39:20.590it is evident that little children donot have the ability to make moral decisions51300:39:20.670 --> 00:39:24.980and to take responsibility for their sins. Still, they are sinners and need51400:39:25.019 --> 00:39:30.059a savior. Perhaps the age ofaccountability should be called the age of moral51500:39:30.099 --> 00:39:36.059awareness. Children come to a pointwhen they are morally aware, that is,51600:39:36.139 --> 00:39:40.050they understand what's what's right and what'swrong. But if they die before51700:39:40.130 --> 00:39:45.409that age, are they morally responsibleand this author says. No. Yeah,51800:39:45.489 --> 00:39:46.530I know, how could they be? Yeah, yeah, I know.51900:39:46.610 --> 00:39:52.440I listened or watched a little snippeton YouTube. It was about todd52000:39:52.519 --> 00:39:58.119for you. Sure some people haveheard of him. Okay, and he's52100:39:58.159 --> 00:40:01.079talking about this and he's saying ageof accountability, and which I agree,52200:40:01.920 --> 00:40:06.639is not a biblical right, certainlynot a biblical phrase. Is it a52300:40:06.719 --> 00:40:09.309biblical concept? I don't even knowthat it's a biblical concept because we don't52400:40:09.349 --> 00:40:15.070see any AIDS at the Bible tellsus to this age you become accountable before52500:40:15.110 --> 00:40:17.829God them for your sin. Andso he argued that it shouldn't be age52600:40:17.829 --> 00:40:21.780of accountability that we're talking about,it should be level of accountability, like52700:40:21.860 --> 00:40:25.179you get to a certain level ofaccountability, right, because of mentally deficient.52800:40:25.380 --> 00:40:29.579He is exactly any have somebody who's, you know, two, twenty52900:40:29.619 --> 00:40:32.380five years old, and I meanyou have a nephew right who's has down53000:40:32.420 --> 00:40:37.690syndrome. Right, he's old,he's thirty, maybe thirty three now.53100:40:37.889 --> 00:40:40.449But you know, you might say, has you mentality or whatever of you53200:40:40.530 --> 00:40:45.329know, ten year old or something. Yeah, and so obviously age can't53300:40:45.329 --> 00:40:49.409be our marker. It's not biblicaland it just not practical right. But53400:40:49.530 --> 00:40:53.440there is a level of accountability andit can be different for every you know,53500:40:53.480 --> 00:40:58.920I know personally for my kids thattheir kids. We have eight kids53600:40:59.480 --> 00:41:01.440and there's some of my kids who, at, you know, five years53700:41:01.480 --> 00:41:06.309old, understood sin, understood theirtheir guilt, of their sin, and53800:41:06.909 --> 00:41:09.949God was dealing with them and theycame to the Lord because of their knowledge53900:41:09.949 --> 00:41:14.309of Sin and their knowledge that Jesusdied to pay the penalty for their sin.54000:41:14.989 --> 00:41:19.099And some of my kids, aretwins who are just turned nine years54100:41:19.099 --> 00:41:22.659old, really didn't, I'm tellingyou, just didn't understand the concept of54200:41:22.900 --> 00:41:27.699sin. I mean just the ideathey got. Don't do wrong stuff,54300:41:28.219 --> 00:41:32.929but really they're guilt until this pastyear and then God graciously brought them both54400:41:34.329 --> 00:41:37.210to himself, you, through theconviction of their sin and the course,54500:41:37.250 --> 00:41:40.210me laying out the Gospel for him. But they really didn't have a knowledge54600:41:40.210 --> 00:41:46.480of in any kind of, Iguess, solid way until they were eight54700:41:46.480 --> 00:41:51.039years old. Yeah, so,yeah, and you know in in that54800:41:51.320 --> 00:41:52.920that is a a verse. Idon't have it in front of me right54900:41:53.000 --> 00:41:58.679at this moment, but where hesays the the ability to choose good before55000:41:58.719 --> 00:42:04.070the child could choose good and rejectevil. Well, that's the prophecy about55100:42:04.070 --> 00:42:07.670Jesus, right. Yeah, itis, it is. Yeah, yeah,55200:42:07.710 --> 00:42:12.349I think I think it was that. Yeah, find good. Yeah,55300:42:12.469 --> 00:42:15.380a seven hundred and sixteen. Yeah, so before the child child know55400:42:15.619 --> 00:42:20.900how to refuse the evil and choosethe good, the land that you dread55500:42:20.980 --> 00:42:24.019will be forsaken by both her kings. So, yeah, and can you55600:42:24.460 --> 00:42:35.210sin if you cannot understand how,or even that you it is possible to55700:42:35.329 --> 00:42:39.530refuse evil or choose good? Yeah, can. Can you be held accountable55800:42:39.690 --> 00:42:44.719for Sin? And I would sayno, and I think the Bible points55900:42:44.760 --> 00:42:49.559out no. Yeah, okay,so this is a very common story used56000:42:49.719 --> 00:42:54.760in talking about this issue. Isthe issue of David Son. Yeah,56100:42:54.840 --> 00:42:58.869and yeah, I mean I thinkwhen we're talking about you know, when56200:42:58.909 --> 00:43:01.630I've talked to people about do infants, to unborn children go to heaven,56300:43:02.230 --> 00:43:06.110this is a scripture that I'll goright to, right and it could be56400:43:06.590 --> 00:43:08.949you know, some some folks calledthe law first mentions, like the first56500:43:08.989 --> 00:43:14.460mention of something in the Bible kindof establishes, I guess, the foundation56600:43:14.659 --> 00:43:17.619for that subject. Yeah, andI think this is the first mention of56700:43:17.940 --> 00:43:22.619of guess in this sense an infantdying, write, an infant in the56800:43:22.659 --> 00:43:25.659children of Israel and the Covenant thatGod had made with Israel. Yeah,56900:43:25.659 --> 00:43:29.690my biblical knowledge is not good enoughto say, but I'll trust you it57000:43:30.010 --> 00:43:31.809is that. It's okay. Soit's second Samuel, twelve, fifteen to57100:43:32.010 --> 00:43:36.170twenty three, and I'm not goingto read through it unless you want to.57200:43:36.530 --> 00:43:38.690We don't have to. Most peopleprobably know this. But but kind57300:43:38.690 --> 00:43:43.039of in summary, maybe maybe youwant to summarize it. So how?57400:43:43.320 --> 00:43:45.599What? How savid responding? Well, was kind of set up the story57500:43:45.840 --> 00:43:49.599and how David was yeah, well, of course you know David, you57600:43:49.679 --> 00:43:53.719know, had sinned with Bath Shebaand and then in the course of things,57700:43:53.760 --> 00:43:57.750God obviously exposed his sin. Wedon't know about David Sin. How57800:43:57.789 --> 00:44:01.670God exposes yeah, and then Bathsheba, you know, summarizing, Bathsheba ends57900:44:01.710 --> 00:44:06.909up pregnant, you know, andand they find out that the child that58000:44:06.989 --> 00:44:10.219she ultimately delivers has some sort ofsickness. I don't think we even have.58100:44:10.820 --> 00:44:14.059We don't understand what that is,but it looks like he's going to58200:44:14.139 --> 00:44:16.619die. Yeah, and so Davidbegins to fast and pray before the Lord.58300:44:16.659 --> 00:44:21.900David knew that he sinned and hewould repent it. Psalm fifty one58400:44:22.059 --> 00:44:23.809is David, Psalm of repentance beforethe Lord. It's you, and you58500:44:23.849 --> 00:44:27.289alone, have a sin and donewhat is evil in your sight. Is58600:44:27.369 --> 00:44:31.210what he says. This apparently happenssometime after that. If Day sin was58700:44:31.250 --> 00:44:36.449exposing all that see away. David'sfasting and crying out to God, and58800:44:36.610 --> 00:44:39.519then he sees, and I'm paraphrasing, so don't quote me on this exactly,58900:44:39.599 --> 00:44:43.599but he sees the his servants overto the side. They're talking among59000:44:43.639 --> 00:44:47.280themselves and he perceives it. Okay, so the child is already dead.59100:44:49.000 --> 00:44:51.960You know, I'm fasting, I'mpraying, I'm pouring myself out in supplication,59200:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.829hoping that God will have mercy.But apparently that the child still died.59300:44:57.429 --> 00:45:00.070And when the child died, hegot up and he ate and he59400:45:00.750 --> 00:45:04.789anointing himself with oil and the servantsask him, why were you weeping when59500:45:04.789 --> 00:45:07.500you thought he was going to dieand now you're like everything's okay, when59600:45:07.739 --> 00:45:14.219he actually is dead? And Davidsays, listen, I know that God59700:45:15.219 --> 00:45:19.780has received him. I know thatwhere he is, I cannot I can't59800:45:19.780 --> 00:45:22.050go to him right now, orhe says he won't come to me as59900:45:22.050 --> 00:45:22.929what he says. He will cometo me, but I will go to60000:45:23.010 --> 00:45:25.489him. So, yeah, what'simplied there is he's gone on to be60100:45:25.610 --> 00:45:29.489with the Lord, right, andI'll be with him one day. Yeah.60200:45:29.570 --> 00:45:31.489Yeah, and he says, Ihave that first written down. Since60300:45:31.530 --> 00:45:35.719he has died, why should Ifast? Can I bring him back again?60400:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.159I shall go to him, buthe will not return to him.60500:45:38.239 --> 00:45:43.400Yeah, but you know, there'sreally no other way to explain that other60600:45:43.440 --> 00:45:47.079than to say David's talking about theafterlife. Yeah, and and he's going60700:45:47.159 --> 00:45:51.110to go to him eventually. Whenhe did? Yes, yeah, and60800:45:51.869 --> 00:45:55.269and there's a sense of hope inand this this change in in how he60900:45:55.909 --> 00:45:59.750how he is acting. Yeah,before the Sun Dies and after the sun61000:45:59.829 --> 00:46:05.739dies it changes from this grieving weeping, crying out to God lamenting, fasting61100:46:06.820 --> 00:46:12.780to he washes up, he stopsfasting. He he stops. I'm sure61200:46:12.780 --> 00:46:15.340he mourns to some degree, butthere's a hopefulness that that he is going61300:46:15.380 --> 00:46:19.369to go to this sun. Yeah, and he year was what. I61400:46:19.489 --> 00:46:24.090had heard of that before, butI had never really contrasted that with David61500:46:24.610 --> 00:46:30.849reaction and actions following the death ofanother son. Absolutely absolom, and that61600:46:31.170 --> 00:46:37.519versus strange, I think important contrastit is. So look at Second Samuel61700:46:37.599 --> 00:46:42.679Nineteen. Yeah, wonderful. Andand do you know just a little bit61800:46:42.719 --> 00:46:49.429of background? So Absalom is clearlyrebelling against learn and against tipify. Absolutely61900:46:49.590 --> 00:46:54.750he's an and he gets killed.David soldiers kill him and and they come62000:46:54.829 --> 00:47:01.019and tell David and David is justgrief stricken. Yeah, so did you62100:47:01.059 --> 00:47:06.900find that? Yeah, the verseThirty Three. Second Samuel Eighteen. Okay,62200:47:07.099 --> 00:47:09.139Verse Thirty Three. Then the kingwas deeply moved and went up into62300:47:09.179 --> 00:47:13.460the chamber over the gate and weptand as he went he said this,62400:47:14.500 --> 00:47:16.849Oh my son, absalom, myson, my son, if only I62500:47:17.010 --> 00:47:20.889had died in your place. So, absolom, my son, my son.62600:47:21.329 --> 00:47:23.010And then the commander of his armybasically rebukes them and says, Hey,62700:47:23.210 --> 00:47:27.369these men fault for you, againstAbsalom, because maybe absong was trying62800:47:27.409 --> 00:47:31.599to kill you, and now you'reweeping over him. And Likely David lost62900:47:31.719 --> 00:47:35.039men in this battle. Could havelost men, these men, but their63000:47:35.079 --> 00:47:37.800life on the line and you're weepingover your your enemy son, your rebel63100:47:37.920 --> 00:47:43.000son. Right of course you knowDavid. This is what astounds me about63200:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.230David. Even though he sinned inthe way that he did, this man63300:47:46.429 --> 00:47:50.349was after the heart of God.God even says, and this is after63400:47:50.429 --> 00:47:52.869David Sin God says, this isa man after my own heart. He63500:47:52.989 --> 00:47:58.190understood some things about God, I'vesaid in the past and preaching about David.63600:47:58.230 --> 00:48:01.500David was a new covenant man inan Old Covenant World. Like he63700:48:01.619 --> 00:48:07.139understood things about the new covenant thatmany Christians don't even understand and about God's63800:48:07.139 --> 00:48:10.260dealings with humanity and grace and allof that. And yet this man,63900:48:10.380 --> 00:48:15.650of course, is broken over thisson, Absalom, and I think the64000:48:15.809 --> 00:48:17.130point which you're trying to make,it I'm going to help you make,64100:48:17.530 --> 00:48:21.730is that though he was broken overhis son, who was an infant,64200:48:21.769 --> 00:48:24.090who was sick, it was achild, he was encouraged, or not64300:48:24.170 --> 00:48:27.760encourage. I'll say he was.He was he had hoped, there was64400:48:27.840 --> 00:48:30.039hope for that child and he saidhe's going to go to the sun.64500:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.639He talks about the afterlife. Yeah, with with a promise and hope.64600:48:36.119 --> 00:48:40.079Look at what he says. It'slike this is a hopeless just desperation before64700:48:40.159 --> 00:48:45.389God. Only I had died insteadof you. Why would he say that?64800:48:45.550 --> 00:48:49.670If he thought Absalom was in abetter place, he wouldn't have.64900:48:51.030 --> 00:48:57.019But so he clearly appears to believehis son, his infant son, has65000:48:57.099 --> 00:48:59.940passed on to be with God,in a better place and he will go65100:49:00.219 --> 00:49:05.340to him. Absalom, not somuch. APSALAM appears to have been condemned65200:49:05.579 --> 00:49:10.570through through what he has done.So okay, so connus, since since65300:49:10.650 --> 00:49:16.690we've I think we've kind of gottenthrough the main point. Yeah, I65400:49:16.809 --> 00:49:22.969think and I hope that we've madeat least beginning arguments. Your people,65500:49:22.050 --> 00:49:29.400that sir, to believe that thatbabies are going to heaven. And but65600:49:30.079 --> 00:49:34.360there are some of some people maybe listening to us, who have had65700:49:34.360 --> 00:49:40.469an abortion, yeah, or miscarriage, and but specifically for those who have65800:49:40.590 --> 00:49:47.469had an abortion and as they maybe suffering some too responses, some may65900:49:47.510 --> 00:49:52.309be suffering guilt, and we justwant to make sure. We've said it66000:49:52.429 --> 00:49:55.219before, but to know hope andhealing a weight, but it doesn't await66100:49:55.340 --> 00:50:00.179by concealing your sin, and II'm just going to quote a verse from66200:50:00.219 --> 00:50:06.500Proverbs Thirteen. Whoever conceals their sinsdoes not prosper, but the one who66300:50:06.579 --> 00:50:13.610confesses and renounces them finds mercy andin Ix Nineteen, repent, then turn66400:50:13.730 --> 00:50:16.889to God so that your sins maybe wiped out the Times of refreshing may66500:50:16.969 --> 00:50:22.280come from the Lord. So thereis hope and healing in the confessionist.66600:50:22.320 --> 00:50:24.559Yeah, in one sense, whichis something I did want to mention and66700:50:24.800 --> 00:50:29.119I know you wanted to mention too, is that you this idea, you66800:50:29.199 --> 00:50:31.880know, from the pro choice.You accusation side of these babies are going66900:50:31.920 --> 00:50:36.030to heaven. Then what are youdoing? Well, just simply, I67000:50:36.190 --> 00:50:38.230believe. You know, I believemy wife is going to heaven. I'm67100:50:38.230 --> 00:50:42.829not going to let someone kill her. Right. You know, just because67200:50:42.869 --> 00:50:45.630someone's going to heaven doesn't mean it'sokay to kill them. Right. You67300:50:45.710 --> 00:50:47.469don't violate then, you don't thiscommand. Man. Yes, that's an67400:50:47.710 --> 00:50:51.940and you don't violate God's command toprotect the innocent, right, right.67500:50:51.940 --> 00:50:54.460So, if we have this principlein the scripture that we should protect those67600:50:54.500 --> 00:50:57.820who are innocent, whether they're goingto heaven or not, that's, yeah,67700:50:57.980 --> 00:51:01.059sort of a ridiculous notion and it'sjust it's a real twisted accusation.67800:51:01.260 --> 00:51:07.449Yeah, anyway. But also thisthis idea that, because it can be67900:51:07.570 --> 00:51:12.969perverted into say, you know,I've heard it from women going into abortion68000:51:13.050 --> 00:51:15.650clinics. Well, this baby's goingto heaven anyway. Yeah, and it68100:51:15.730 --> 00:51:20.199becomes a rational becomes a rationalization,and we certainly don't want to fall prey68200:51:20.360 --> 00:51:22.840to any kind of rationalization or givecreed as to any kind of rationalizations like68300:51:22.920 --> 00:51:25.639that. Right, but we dohave to be consistent with scripture and it68400:51:27.360 --> 00:51:34.030can you imagine what a woman whowho comes to the Lord who's had an68500:51:34.070 --> 00:51:39.030abortion would be dealing with in hermind if she thought that it's possible that68600:51:39.110 --> 00:51:44.869she sent her baby to hell byhaving an abortion? Yeah, yeah,68700:51:45.510 --> 00:51:49.739that would just that could be acomforting thing at all. Right, but68800:51:49.900 --> 00:51:52.699it's also and again it's not emotion, it's believe, it's scripturally just completely68900:51:52.780 --> 00:51:57.500debond. The God's not putting thatchild into hell. Yeah, God's child69000:51:57.579 --> 00:52:01.010is gone to heaven. Yeah,and because he's merciful, shall not the69100:52:01.050 --> 00:52:05.010judge of all the earth. Yeah. Right. And something that occurred to69200:52:05.050 --> 00:52:09.809me as I was thinking about thisabout how to counsel abortion minded women believing,69300:52:09.889 --> 00:52:14.929as I do, that their babieswill go to heaven is yeah,69400:52:14.969 --> 00:52:19.480that baby will be in heaven,but maybe you won't hear about to commit69500:52:19.559 --> 00:52:23.280murder. Yeah, and and soyou know, we are and and actually69600:52:23.280 --> 00:52:29.320there's a verse that really Romans sixone. Maybe we send so that grace69700:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.869should abound. God Forbid, mayit never be. Yeah, we don't69800:52:32.150 --> 00:52:36.469sin so that God's grace can bepoured out on those babies. Yeah,69900:52:36.590 --> 00:52:39.829and, and I think that isa concept throughout script surely so, God70000:52:39.909 --> 00:52:45.659will forgive, but we do notpresume on his forgiveness and we don't sin,70100:52:45.300 --> 00:52:51.059presuming upon His mercy, grace andforgiveness. Yeah. So, yeah,70200:52:51.260 --> 00:52:53.019well, you know, we've gonethrough a lot of scripture. We70300:52:53.099 --> 00:52:57.340have, and so no one canaccuse us of not having having done our70400:52:57.340 --> 00:53:00.409due diligence and going through the scripture. But what do you guys think?70500:53:00.449 --> 00:53:02.530I mean, certainly I'd love tohear from those who have a different opinion.70600:53:04.610 --> 00:53:07.130Maybe they'll have on a podcast.Yeah, I would love to have70700:53:07.250 --> 00:53:12.010someone on a podcast he believes thatthat unborn aboarded children go to hale,70800:53:12.050 --> 00:53:14.800or at least potentially good ale,and like to talk through that. Yeah,70900:53:15.119 --> 00:53:17.280certainly don't understand that. That thatidea and I don't see it Biblically,71000:53:17.800 --> 00:53:21.559but I certainly like to talk toanybody had that, that persuasion or71100:53:21.599 --> 00:53:24.679just maybe there's some things that wedidn't consider, because I believe that any71200:53:24.679 --> 00:53:30.550subject that we crack up in ourBible and look into has theological and practical71300:53:30.630 --> 00:53:35.110implications. What are some of thetheological and practical and practical implications that were71400:53:35.150 --> 00:53:37.550missing maybe in the subject? Whatare some of the ones that we touched71500:53:37.630 --> 00:53:39.269on that you really appreciate it?You want to hear from you, you71600:53:39.349 --> 00:53:43.139know. Certainly you can shoot mean email. D Parks at cities for71700:53:43.260 --> 00:53:46.980LIFECOM, cities in the number fourlifecom, Vicky v Kassi, org at71800:53:47.059 --> 00:53:51.460cities for lifecom. We can reachout to us. I'm on Facebook,71900:53:51.659 --> 00:53:55.690she's on facebook and you can reachus through a website. Again, we72000:53:55.730 --> 00:54:00.250encourage you guys, as we alwaysdo, to good our sidewalks for life72100:54:00.170 --> 00:54:07.210website, www dot sidewalks and numberfour lifecom with some sidewalk counseling training information72200:54:07.690 --> 00:54:09.119and we may put an article outthere. You talked about putting an arc72300:54:09.280 --> 00:54:14.480about this, at least to encouragesidewalk counselors, and you know, so72400:54:14.559 --> 00:54:16.039maybe we'll put an on our site, lost for life site. And yeah,72500:54:16.239 --> 00:54:21.280maybe, if I think of it, will link this, this podcast72600:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.389that that'd be good. But butwe appreciate all those who listen and when72700:54:24.429 --> 00:54:29.510we hope that you guys are blessedas you listen and we'll we'll talk to72800:54:29.550 --> 00:54:45.019you later. Give for love,give me our love for gratitude. I72900:54:45.340 --> 00:54:54.730know it will cost me my love. Nothing's too precious in some you