Civil Disobedience, The Christmas Story, and Pro-Life Ministry

0:00 I am yours. I Am Yours, I am yours, s and me, Lord, I am yours. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast and this episode we're going to talk about the Christmas story and civil disobedience and what that has to do pro life ministry. Stay tuned for this episode. Lord, I felt show passish touch your heart. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. We're going to talk a little bit about the Christmas story in this episode and some conversations that Vicky and I had had about some things that go on in the Christmas story and you know, after the birth of Jesus and to do with the wise men, and we'll jump right into it and Matthew Chapter two. Many of you know, of course, the story of the birth of Jesus. Were this is the day after Christmas. Will recording this, and we celebrated the birth of Jesus, and we know the story about the wise men and Matthew Conveis that story here in Matthew Chapter Two.

1:10 And then we know the wise man before they went to see Jesus, they saw King Herod and King Herod, in a crafty sort of way, told these guys. When you find the child. Let me know so I too can come and worship him. What he said. Of course, we know what's behind his his motive. There's he wants to to try to wipe out this this person who may end up taking his throne. Yeah, here it's one of those guys that didn't want to let go of his authority in his and his position. And then we hear about this slaughter of the innocence. Is that it's called after Jesus was born and the wise man. Actually something I heard, by the way, just a little little rabbit trail, which was pretty interesting. I heard a preacher talking about the wise men and their gifts that they brought, and there's a lot of explanation there what these gifts meant. The gold was the symbol of a king, you know, so Jesus was obviously is a king. The incense, Frankinsense, was to represent his divinity, right, he burned incense to the divinity, and so that was what that was to represent. or priestly, some people say, because his priestly nature. And then the Murr was for his death. You know, they embalmed bodies or put Murr as a spice. But this preacher said, yeah, those things can be true, and those things are obviously true aspects of who Jesus is. But he said, practically speaking, you have to wonder why these wise men brought these gifts to a baby. Right, he's shivering in the cold. He doesn't need gold. He's a blanket,

2:43 he's a blanking, as when comedian said a bowl of soup would have done well, other than some frankinsense. But this preacher said these were costly things. Obviously gold is Franktins was very colostly, and so it was. Murr. What if, and I think it's true, this was ordained by God in order to fund the trip to Egypt that Joseph and Mary and Jesus had to take, and that's what we're talking about here, is how they were under threat of being killed by King Herod Jesus was, and so an angel revealed to Joseph, Hey, this is going to happen, flee to Egypt, and so they did. And you got to wonder how they he's a carpenter, didn't have a lot of money. He had just had to go to back to his hometown, who to Bethlehem, and that was pretty costly. I'm sure of a trip. So how is he going to fund this? Well, the wise men. So that's a little little free befo you, guys, as you listening. That's not what this podcast is about.

3:38 That's an interesting thing to think about. God provides, yeah, God does provide. In that situation, he did. But why did Jesus and his family have to flee to Egypt? Hmm? Yeah, it was because of Herod. And Herod here in Matthew, Chapter Two, Verse Sixteen, and it says when Herod saw that he was deceived by the wise men, he was exceedingly angry and sent forth and to put to death all the male children who are in Bethlehem and all its districts from two years old, according to the time which had been determined by the wise man. So he said, all these children because again, this this person was possibly going to depose him of His throne, because this was supposed to be a king, and rather than really want to worship the king, you wanted to kill the king.

4:21 Yeah, hum. And so we're talking about actually our subject, strangely enough, is civil disobedience. Yeah, because this story brings to mind and if you look at in a lot of pro lifers throughout the years have I've even heard flip, who we had on some podcast to go and who we interact with on a regular basis, talking about the the Deavil, on the demonic nature of the attack on children, on the attack, of course, of the attack on the unborn, and this situation. It was two years and younger compared to this rage of Herod and back in Egypt, back in exodus chapter one, the rage of Pharaoh against the children of Israel and their babies who are ultimately thrown into the nol. We'll talk a will go to that scripture in just a second. Yeah, although it is strange, as I've mentioned earlier, that Jesus escapes to Egypt from Herod and then, of course, what happened in the days when the children of Israel, we're in Egypt, as they were to escape from Egypt and they were to be rescued from the the king of Egypt there. But this is this is the King Herod who is given a civil order, who's given a decree, and I guess there's some debate over the level of power that he had. Could he do this, because he was under Roman rule and he was sort of just a figurehead really, but he obviously had some power to be able to direct whatever was his palace guard or whatever to go and slaughter two years and younger.

5:55 I mean this, this obviously was, you know, a traumatic event. You know, it's references back here in verse eighteen seventeen. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the Prophet Jeremiah, saying a voice was heard in Rama, lamentation, weeping, great mourning Rachel, weeping for her children, refusing to be comfort because they were no more. So he's repressing back to this scripture that was prophesied about this event and they were. You know, this is one of those prophecies that had application then and has application. You know, had application in Jeremi's Day and has application in Jesus Day. Yeah, so this is obviously a traumatic event. This is people having their children ripped out of their arms, taken and slaughtered. Yeah, I mean you imagine, if you're a palace guard, do you obey this this decree?

6:39 Do you obey this Governing Authority? Yeah, and that's what we're talking about. Talking about some in some aspects what we deal with as sidewalk counselors, because we and Charlotte have dealt with a lot of decrees, a lot of ordinances of man that we've had to, you know, respectfully disobey and do what we're called to do, what we know that what is is within our rights to do, and we'll talk about some of that as we as we go on. Yeah, but biblically, how do we think about that sort of thing and how do we compare that to what we see in the Bible? Right? So let's jump back then to exodus and and I believe we'll get a little deeper into this. So exit is chapter one, okay, and if you're are with going going there already, yeah, let's go there. And and this is whenever the Egyptian king, Pharaoh, began to see that the children of Israel were increasing in number and he commanded the Hebrew midrap wives, so the midwives, to those who helped these these Hebrew women to deliver their children, to kill the children when they were born if they were male. There, which is, you know, another parallel. It was, yeah, the young boys, yeah, the big boys were kill Hilp yea. Yeah, because he didn't want he was afraid that these people are going to rise up and rebel against him. They were outnumbering the Egyptians, and he was wondering how much longer can we keep them under our thumb without them rebeling? And and so we need to nip this thing in the bud, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, so what's that scripture that

8:13 you have there in in exodus one? Yeah, okay, so exodus one, verse fifteen is where it begins. Yeah, did you? Are you going to read it? Yeah, I'll read it. Okay. This is the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was you'll have to pronounce that name, Chefar off Fra. Yeah, Huh, I love these biblical front and Pooh Pooh as are great names. I've never heard someone named their child that, but they were obviously wonderful people. Then it was like it was Mary, yeah, it says, okay, yes, for sixteen, and he said, when you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women and see them on the birth stools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him, and if it is a daughter, she shall live. Verse Seventeen. Here comes your civil disobedience. And this was the decree from the highest level of government that you could get right in probably the entire region, maybe even in the entire world at this point. I mean Egypt was a very powerful probably the most powerful nation of that time, but at least in Egypt, this was the most powerful voice, most powerful entity that you could get a decree from. And here he goes and here he decrees this thing. and verse seventeen. But the midwives feared God, that's a key right there, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded, but save the male children alive. So the King of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, why have you done this thing? And Save the male children alive, and the midwife said to Pharaoh, because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women,

9:46 for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them. Therefore, God dealt well with the midwives and the people multiplied and grew very mightily. This was because the the midwives feared God and he provided households for them. Then it goes on in verse twenty two. So Pharaoh commanded that all his people say the commanded all these people saying every son who was born you shall cast into the river and every daughter you shall save a live. And then we have the story of Moses and how Moses mother hid him. There's another civil disobedience and and she hid him until she could hide him. Two more put him in the bulrushes. Ultimately she was, or he was, adopted by Farrow's daughter and and protected rightlessly. Right, right. Yeah.

10:30 So, so it's a great story to illustrate the point, yeah, of an unjust law and and people's response to it. And then what? What were the consequences? And so when, when we were talking about this and trying to decide how to approach this topic, I did a little bit of research and I found what I thought were really good three guiding principles. This was from First Baptist Dallas, yeah, Org website. So three guiding principles of civil disobedience, okay, fee, and three guiding principal biblically. Biblically, yes, yes, this is this is from a Biblical perspective, from Gospel Focus per perspective. So and I thought they were good and and I think we can apply them to any of these stories that we read about civil disider in the frangely, as we were thinking about this subject and talking about this subject, as I'm going through them, thinking about, you know, examples of civil disobedience in the scripture. You know, some come to mind immediately and then some I didn't really think about. Right. I didn't think about Daniel, the story of Daniel, until you mentioned and I should have because that's a common story in the story of Shadrach Meshech in a bandage.

11:43 Yeah, so this is, I think, of very important topic that we talked about as it has to do with prolife ministry, because we're not just talking about sidewalk counseling. We're talking about in other realms of prolife ministry. Mean we're living in an ever increasing world that is is pro death, pro abortion, and not just like pro abortion in some sort of a passive way, like, you know, pro choice, so to speak, where you can choose to be pro life if you want. But I'm going to be pretty know these people are actively, like trying to silence prolifers actively. You know, I mentioned to you about in California laws that they had passed in California basically saying that commanding that prolife pregnancy centers have to refer for abortions or at least point people in the direction right of people that provide abortions. Yeah, just like not just this is conspelled speech, like you're not just forced to to just be okay with an alternative, respective, we're forced to promote abortion right, which is which is insane. Yeah, and doctors and nurses, we had talked about earlier, being forced to perform abortions or they'll lose their jobs. Yeah, another example. Yeah. Well, like in universities and things, people who are training to be MD's have to, you know, told that they have to perform abortions, or at least be part of a of an abortion, in order to get their MD yeah. Yeah, so it's not something that that you can just say well, you know,

13:15 maybe that's okay for you, but not for me. They're they're being actively, yeah, told to go against God's Clear Commandments. Yeah, and and their own counctions. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'll go into those three guiding principles. Yeah, and then then we can go from there. So the first one, when you're thinking about civil disobedience, does it? Does the situation rise to the the degree that I need to disobey? Yeah, Higher Authority, not God, not the highest authority. Right now, we're talking about a governmental authority. So the first one is your disobedience based on clear biblical mandate. Okay. And and so do you know does does what you are rising up against violate something that God has clearly told you do not violate? Yeah. So, you know, an obvious example in the pro life movement is thou shall not murder. Yeah. Yeah. And what is support example right here in this passage to yeah, so these Hebrew Midwi was it says that their motivation was. They weren't just motivated it is Abe Farah because they didn't like him, because he had a funny hat, right, or whatever, because he was an Egyptian, whatever. Know, it says they feared God. Yes, that was that was their chief thing.

14:46 Here in the scripture. That says that it was motivating them to disobey this this this edict, yes, decree, and to fear God. You must know God and you must know what he says. And why I think that's important is because I can't tell you the number of times that I have again our work in front of this abortion center, where I will say, do you know what the Bible says about the unborn? Yeah, and the sacred nature of that unborn life and so many of them will say, no, I don't know. So how can you fear and obey God if you don't even know what he says? So it's implicit in that. Yeah, these midwives they feared God, so they knew God. Yeah, and they knew his word, at least his command thou shalt not murder. Now that command had not yet been given. It's given later on in the in Exitus, Chapter Twenty, where God writes the Ten can ten commandments on tablets of stone with his own finger. Right, but this command is a universal thing.

15:45 Like we know killing innocent people is wrong. We know that universally. And these Hebrew midwives, they knew that, they feared God and and they disobeyed because of that. That first principle. Does it right? Violate a clear command of the Lord? Is what you're being told to do by a Governing Authority? Violated Clear Command of the Lord? Right, and and that that guiding principle is based on acts five twenty nine, which is Peter in the apostles answered. We must obey God rather than men. Yeah, so whatever that. That should be the first thing that we think when we're budding heads with a law. Does this law in some way force me to disobey God?

16:33 Yeah, and if so, that's a law that you may need to be disobedient. Yea Arts. Yeah, okay. So the second guiding principle of civil disobedience. If you gay engage in civil disobedience, do so demonstrating respect for authority. Okay. And so, if you think of Daniel is a great example. Yeah, throughout the book of Daniel, whenever Daniel engages with the king who was remembered, this king, Nebuchadnezzar, was not a God follower, right, no, no, at least not an initially.

17:15 And so, but he deals with him with so much respect when he's commanded in. I you know, I don't actually have the reference from Gett. A man died to eat the vegetables. Okay, yeah, that's the version. Couple chapters. Yeah, that's first couple of chapters of Daniel. Whenever they're brought from Jerusalem and they're brought in the Nebuchadner, Nebuchadnezzar's house, right. Yeah, that's the first chapter. And Daniel Basically says, and there's some some reasons why, I think, when Daniel, when the guy who ever sees the these young boys that wants to make them strong and tough and whatever, right is going to feed them meat. And he says No.

17:56 Some people say, and I think I agree, that this was meat sacrifice to idols. It was going against God's law. Right it was? Maybe pork probably was right. Yeah, and either way, Daniel was saying we can't eat this meat. It would defile defile us, and so let's eat vegetables. And then that sense, Daniel was sort of slie about this thing. So it wasn't like direct civil disobedience. It wasn't we going to do that. It was just like, well, let's eat vegetables for ten days and if things go well, then maybe this is a good idea for everybody. Yeahs pits it. He's approaching it gently and with respect. As his first resort, his first resort is not you know, I will not do this and you know, pulls, pulls out a knife for anything like that.

18:45 He tries to basically offer a solution where he doesn't compromise in any way his beliefs. But but he's still present very respectfully, a counter to whatever this edict is. Yeah, yeah, and so he does it and does it like you said, very respectfully. And then going on just a couple of chapters past that, in Daniel Chapter three, we have the story of Shadrach Meshech and Abendego. Yeah, and you know, they even though they were pretty straightforward about this. It seems that they were. They were pretty respectful, and it says here, says Verse Sixteen of Chapter Three. This is after Nebuchanezzar had established this what ninety foot idol that people were supposed to when music play, they were supposed to bow down and and worship this thing.

19:36 Several Times today, whenever the trumpet sounded or whatever, they were just a bow down to the sidal and then, of course they refused to because this violates a clear command of God. This violates clearly what we've been told in God's word. You know, they have the first command us not worship an idol. I'm the Lord, your God. You have no other gods before me. Second commands you should not make for yourself an idol. We can't do this. God has commanded us not to. It would go against what God's commanded, it would go against our conscious and Verse Sixteen and Chapter Three says Shadrach Meshech and Abednego answered and said to the king, Old Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If there is just if that is the case, our God whom we serve, say this is Nebuchadnezzar, had threatened them. If you don't bow down, then you're going to be you going to be killed, thrown into a unto the furnace.

20:23 Our God, whom we serve, is able to deliver us from the burning, fiery furnace and he will deliver us from your hand, Ole King. But if not, let it be known, Oh king, that we will not serve your gods, nor will we worship the golden image of which you have said, of what you have set up. So they're saying God can deliver us, but even if he doesn't, we're still not going to worship your idol. And they're not calling him names, they're they're not making any threats, they're just saying this is a standard we will not violate. Yeah, and and they do it with respect. Even look at the our last passage that we were talking about with the Hebrew midwives that you know, they're being ordered to murder babies. Yeah, and honestly, it seems like they would be very justified in saying, you filthy creep, what are you asking us to do? Have you no conscience? But they don't. They answered gently and kindly and and with respect. Yeah, yeah, that's not easy. Let me, it is not easy be especially when you look at what you're facing, particularly with abortion. You're facing the murder, what we believe is the murder of absolutely have so many innocent little babies, and I think our fleshly impulse is to to strike out at these vile people. Ya doing this, what we what? This this vile act. And Yeah, I think even more, you know, more applicable is and you're dealing with

21:56 governing authorities that, yeah, make up laws and that try to apply laws. I mean, yeah, we did with some of that. You we've had anything from signs that we use to show the truth about abortion and show the truth about a mom choosing life. We've had those signs taken out of our volunteers hands before. I'm actually dealing with now a federal lawsuit against the city of Charlotte. Yeah, so we have some experience in this realm where we've had, you know, laws, sound ordinances and and pigting ordinances and these different things that we've never really had to worry about before because we know we're not lawbreakers and we write with the law is. But they've been twisted in applied in certain ways where it's like man, in order for us to do what God's called us to do, we have to disobey, like we're called you someone wants literature, to give them literature. Yeah, that's part of you know, our motive ministry is part of our calling. Yeah, and now we've been written saltations for given out literature to somebody who stops in the driveway and asked for it. Yeah, I mean, in a sense we are being told do not speak for up at this last ditch moment, do not speak and offer what you know can save lives and your point people to God. But God commands us in proverbs thirty one, eight to ten.

23:17 Speak for those who cannot speak for yourself. So that is an unjust law that directly violates God's commandment to us to speak and and the methods by which we speak to these women is our information, literally speaking, which they, the authorities, have tried to shut down through the sound ordinance, and and Our signs, speaking with visual images. Yes, so you know, one of the things that I've said is we're talking about what we're dealing with personally, and I know what others you know. I mentioned California and the law that had been passed on. Thankfully that's been struck down, from what understand, where these pro life pregnancy centers not only have to disclose they don't do abortions, but they have to point people in the direction of abortions if they want abortions, which is ridiculous right, but you know, they had to push back against that and you have to make the decision because they were facing if they were if they were not going to obey that, they were facing five hundred per incident, initially when it was five hundred for the first incident in a thousand dollars for every an incident after that. It's like, can I obey this? Can I in good conscience obey not just not talking about pro life stuff, but actually being compelled to encourage people at least a point people in the direction of abortions? Like, man, there's no way right that I can honor God is so I think that's one of the things is, can I honor God and obey this. And if I'm told I

24:49 can't speak against abortion, I have to in order to honor the Lord. I know, the slaughter of the innocence is happening in our city, like in Matthew Chapter too. Yeah, I have to speak at against. Yeah. Yeah, and you know, sort of out of this passage, Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego, is there not just dealing with some I don't know, some sort of benign thing, edict or whatever, but this is like a malicious and malignant thing where they're told they have to worship this ninety foot idol in the public square and they respectfully. Like I said, it's hard because, you know, even talking about this, I'm getting fired up, my blood starting a ball because I man, we have a command from God, we have this thing called the constitution in the United States to protect these rights, and yet we're still having to deal with this. Yeah, these guys, though, they didn't have a constitution. They had God's word, but they didn't have, you know, different courts and things like that they could appeal to. They couldn't file a federal lawsuit against Nebuchadnezzar. Yeah, they had to face some pretty tough circumstances and they were willing to do it, and I think that's right to and so that goes to the third one of the guiding principles of civil disobedience, and it's a hard one, but it is critical that we be prepared to suffer the consequences. Yeah, now, we know that in the end God will reward us, but there can be dire consequences to any act of civil disobedience. So be clear that the

26:29 law that you are regarding as unjust and that you are going to disobey is, is it truly a a law that forces you to compromise? It's a moral law, yeah, or an immoral law that causes you to compromise your ability to honor and glorify God? Yeah, and if it is, yeah, I think you have no choice but to to fight that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's go into Daniel, chapter six, I believe it is. Yeah, Daniel Chapter Six. This is another story, of course, we all know. My Name's Daniel, so Daniels. So that's your favorite book, right, favorite. This nicely my favorite book of the Bible, though, but it's one of my favorite yes, and in the story of Daniel Daniel in the lions den. When I tell people in my name and they're like how I need to remember that, it's easy. Daniel the license, just remember the guy in the lions didn't right. Of course, the stay of the story of Daniel the lions didn't begins with an unrighteous edict from King Darius. In this situation where these men, apparently some of the Council Darius, were jealous of Daniel because he was favored by the king and they convinced him to make up this this new law that you can't pray for a certain amount of time. I think it was thirty days or something like that, to any other deity or any other God or any other entity except for the king. And and when this was passed, here's what it says

28:00 in Daniel, chapter six and verse eight. Now, when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, so this law was passed, you know it was signed, he went home and in his upper room with his window open toward Jerusalem. So he didn't do it in silence, he didn't do it behind closed doors, he opened his window towards Jerusalem. So, and it's with his window opened towards Jerusalem he knelt down on his knees three times that day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as was his custom since early days. Daniel apparently did this all the time. This is his custom, this is what he did. Never had a problem till they passed this law and rather than saying wow, I maybe I should obey this thing, maybe I should go and hide and and pray in secret. I mean the Bible says you should pray in secrets, what Jesus says. So I can justify by just close step out of your custom, because obviously they're going to be they know your custom, they're going to be looking for here. You're setting yourself up for failure here. D Yeah, Daniel, what are you doing here? Don't you know you should obey the governing authorities? And yet he goes with his window open now, right, didn't believe it all. Right after that, right right after they said it, he goes open the window.

29:10 I mean it says now when he knew. When Daniel knew, so he knew this thing. So it was like here's the here's the cause and effects, and I found out this thing. So he went rite home and pray. Now I don't think it was Daniel's motive at all, because you look at this guy, who's just a humble man, love God, that he was doing this for show. I mean open his window for show. Knows, there's this customs we always they did, right, this is yeah, he prayed and he prayed toward Rusalem three times a day. Yeah, he kept doing what he had done and ultimately he's apprehended and he's thrown into the lions den and, you know, by God's grace he was saved. But he knew full well, knew that he could be eaten by the Lions. Yeah, and and yet he still did this act of civil disobedient right, right, and he suffered the consequences and in this case, as in the case with the Hebrew midwives, God stepped in and saved him. Yeah, it's sad. With Chad Rach Mescheck in a Bandigo, God's diving rescue right from the fiery fern, right, but he doesn't always know, you know, he doesn't always and I think we have to be prepared for the fact that we may suffer. And you know, Jesus is a perfect example of that. He he did not answer Herod was Adhrod that was questioning him.

30:30 And he was and pilot and he was just silent and he could have rescued himself there, but he would not answer you. The only answer gay, just as Satans pilot was like, don't you know, I have the power to set you free. And he says you have no power except that which is given to you. Basically, you're under God's authority. Right, ultimately, man put yourself in check. And you know what, honestly, that is a great guiding principle as well as well that statement by Jesus. You would have no power unless it was given to you by God. And so you know, when we go forth, if we keep that in our heart and mind, we remember that we serve the God of all power.

31:12 Yeah, and and it is to I mean that's that brings me to some of the pastors that we were talking about that are sort of difficult. So we can is there are some. Yeah, we had passages. We talked about the civil civil disobedience passages, some of those at least, and you know how God honored those people. And I believe, no matter what, listen, if Shadwick Mischannak in a BANDAGO would have been consumed in the fiery furnace. Still, God would have honored them in eternity. Right. But God honored them in that case by saving them. The Hebrew midwise, in the same and Daniel the same even if. But their motive was not that God's going to rescue me. Their motive was I'm going to honor God no matter what. Honor them no matter what. But we have here in Roman chapter thirteen. This is where my mind always goes when I'm thinking about governing authorities and dealing with the government and that sort of thing, and I'm kind of give well, let's just read the passage, okay, and Romans Thirteen, verse one. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there's no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the Authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves, for rulers are not a terror to good works, but evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the Authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same, for he is God's minister to you for good, but if you do evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is God's minister and Avenger to execute wrath on Him who practices evil.

32:40 Therefore, you must be subject, not only too because of wrath, but also for constant sake, for because of this you will pay taxes. You also, you also pay taxes for their God's ministers attending continually to this very thing, render taxes so basicly, he's talking about taxes. I don't think that's the only context here. We saw tags. I think it's primary context where's talking about taxes, and so some Christians might ask the question, do I need to pay my taxes? And Yeah, you do, and Jesus even said that. Yeah, give the seas as, those that are caesars and right to God this thing. But how do we how do we view this, this passage, in light of what we're talking about, because we're looking at Old Testament examples, and we mentioned and we'll mention again, probably we need to read those passages and Romans or acts. Sorry about these apostles who disobeyed, and so they had some commands from governing authorities, and yet this passage just telling us that we need to obey those governing authorities. Yeah, let me jump on to the first Peter Passage right because I think it ties in its pretty much the same themes. Is What Paul's given enrollments.

33:53 But it says, and you know this is all those who are listen, Peter. What First Peter Chapter Two? Okay, and you know I'm a context guy. I don't like to just read a passage out of its context. But I won't read the greater context of this passage because I think it's pretty obvious. But for those who want to just read first Peter, it's very short. You'll get the context of what Peter's talking about here, but I'll jump into verse thirteen. It says therefore, and you know, when there's a therefore, you should look back and see what it's there for. So I encourage you to look at the context of this. But therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of Man for God's sake, rather through the king of supreme or to governors, as those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good, for this is the will of God that by doing good, you may put the science ignorance of foolish men as free. Yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bond servants of the Lord, Honor All people, love the Brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. So again, here's here's a context. Or we're dealing with obedience to government. You know, Paul says, submit yourself to every ordinance of Man. Peter says, submit yourselves to every ordinance of Man. And we're talking about ordinances, right, we're dealing with what we believe to be some unjust ordinances here in Charlotte and looking around, you know there's some unjust ordinances, some things. That calls prolife ministries to have issues. Well, not just even your life. Let's just look at abortion. Yeah, abortion in and of itself is allowed my law.

35:25 Yeah, our country. Yeah, yes, I'm say, it's the it's the law of the land, you know. Right, Rudy weight, right, but yeah, by the way, Ruby weight is not a law. Right. The courts, because of the constitution, are not to make laws, but they have in some senses, which is horrible. Right. That could be a podcast for another day. That's because that would be along going to go through. Yeah, but yeah, so we look at these ordinances of man and we look at some of the hindrances that they cost us personally, and we're like, we have to do what you know. Let's go back to the to acts. And this is what they said in the book of acts. Okay, they were told by the governing authorities and acts chapter four, I believe it is. And you know, they were preaching the name of Jesus, they were healing people in the name of Jesus and ultimately the Pharisees who were rulers, they were in charge. Hmm, in some ways. Now, they weren't in complete charge because Romans, the Romans ruled Jerusalem and and the whole area of Israel there, but they at least had some authority and there at least you know, religious and you know secular one elsa secular bit governmental authorities. And it says in verse thirteen of Acts Chapter Four. Now and they it's the Pharisees or the the Sahedron, so the Pharisees is said to season and the other rulers there in Jerusalem, when they

36:55 saw the boldness of Peter and John and perceive that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled and they realize that they had been with Jesus. So they recognize this thing about them that had been with Jesus and seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But it basically what happens is they take these guys into their authority, to their custody, and they beat them actually for healing a man. Yeah, for healing a man. And and it says this is them conversing with themselves. But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threatened them that they now, that they now they speak in the name of Jesus. No more. So they're not supposed to speak in Jesus name it.

37:39 So they called them a commanded them that they should not speak nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John, and this is the same Peter That wrote first Peter. Okay, so there's some context here and there's some there's things that we need to reconcile in our understanding here, which we'll talk about. But Peter and John answered and said to them whether it is right, in the sight of God, to listen to you more than God, you Judge Verse Twenty. I love this passage, for we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. And so when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. And so this man's healed, God's glorify the Gospels preached. These guys are ticked off. So they arrest Peter and John and there threatened them.

38:30 I said, they beat them if they didn't in this pastor. I think later on they actually do. Okay, and then they threatened them, tell them to can't speak. No, no more speaking in the name of Jesus. No, we're preaching this Gospel about this Jesus. Okay, we don't hear the stuff anymore because we're gonna we're going to put you to death, whatever they threaten them with. Yeah, and Peter and John's response is you judge for yourself whether it's right for us to listen to you or to God. For us, we're going to listen to God. Yeah, we can't help it. He's basically saying, we can't help it, we can't help but speak the things which we have seen, in which we have heard what he's talking about. The Death Bear on resurrection of Jesus and the miracles that Jesus had performed, this majesty of this Glorious Savior. We can't keep our mouth shut about this thing. It's not just that we don't want to, it's like we can't, we can't help we have to speak this this truth about Jesus, and in the same way with us and the application that we're dealing with here in Charlotte. I mean, we've been struck, of course, with the Majesty of Jesus and we can't help but preach the Gospel, but also we've been, you know, dealt with the Holy Spirit for what's happening in our city, the fact that little baby boys and little baby girls are being murdered just minutes away from our churches, from our homes.

39:45 Like we have to speak against this thing. We have and we've seen the effect of speaking against this. We've seen MOMS choose life. We just had the day after Christmas. Today we just had a mom who had had an abortion broken yeah, and was coming actually to the abortion clinic again, actually hoping that we would be there right. Thankfully, by God's grace, we were right and we shared the truth with her. She chose life for that baby and she's getting ministered to from her previous abortion and, like man, we've seen the result of this thing. We know what God can do. We must speak this truth. To withhold this truth would be a crime against God and against these women. Yeah, ultimately you'll be held account by someone to account. Yeah, it be held to account by God for what you have done or haven't done? Or will it be held to account by, you know, some Civic Authority, Civil Authority, for what you have done or or not done? And certainly my my preference is that my heart would long to be held to account by God and to have done what he has commanded us to do. What or one of the things? And you know, we're not not going to be able to get into the depth of Romans, chapter thirteen and all the back and forth arguments about that. Maybe we will at some future podcast, maybe have someone on WHO's smarter than us about this stuff. But one of the things I will say is that in Romans and in Peter What Peters talking about, you're dealing with, you know,

41:17 a literal empire, a monarchy where you have the highest level of government is the emperor. Is the Roman emperor, and that's what you're dealing with. That context, in the context we're dealing with here in the United States of America. You know what the highest level of government is in this country, the highest level of the highest authority in this country, in our country? Well, yes, I would assume it's congress. President. No, no, actually, some no, court, not a not gonna happen. No, the constitution. Oh, of course, the constitution is what gives these it's what lays out these different areas of government, these three branches of government or all they wouldn't exist. It wouldn't for the constitution. Now, it's true that not necessarily everyone in government is going to abide or agree with that.

42:07 They're right kind of rewriting their own little constantation. That's the that's the issue. Yeah, so the highest level of government that we have to obey in this country is the constitution, and there are things that are very plain in the constitution, like the freedom of speech. Yeah, we shall not be infringed upon. I mean, come on, you can't get more clear than that. And yet these there are government entities that try to circumvent or usurp the authority that the constitution has in this country and that creates a lot of problems. Yeah, it's so one of the the appeals that I make. You know, if I'm going to give out a pamphlet to a mom that's going into an abortion clinic and I'm threatened with a CETACEAN for stepping into the driveway or for stepping around a police barricade or whatever. And this you know well, the weird threats. One of our guys got jaywalking a couple of weeks ago for walking across the street and given literature. It's like this not in because there's yeah, cross the crosswalk, because the crosswalk within a mile and I have it. It's funny, but it stinks because we have to get a quart over this, we have to fight this, we have to get a lawyer in all this. It's ridiculous, right, but it's like I have to do that if I know it can save a baby's life.

43:15 And also I know according to the constitution I have a right to speak or giving literature is speech. To give literature to somebody that asks for Yes, I know I'm not violating my conscience. I'm honoring God first and foremost, but I'm also I'm not violating the law of the land because it's the constitution. Yeah, so there are certainly constitutional portions of the Constitution, such a slavery, that that I do think, violate gods. Yeah, absolutely. And so there are times when the highest law of the land is immoral. Yeah, and absolutely it is unjust. And then that, you know, then God is, though, supreme. Yeah, above it all. One of the things I would have a hard time with the the Romans Thirteen finding like a whole to be able to say, okay, you can, you can kind of disregard that. But in the was it in the first Peter? There's Peter beausage. It says fear God to write, and there in the list of things was fear God. And so in the list of who were your to honor and obey, God is clearly mentioned fear God.

44:22 And of course, throughout the Bible God's Word is Supreme. Yeah, so when he's in the list and you've you can then kind of pick, well, which one of my kind of honor and and if the laws of men contradict the laws of God, I think you could make an argument in that passage well, fear God is is the most important. Yeah, so I don't know if that's true in the Romans. Thirteen one, I didn't really pick up any. Yeah, like I said, it's impossible for us to dig in the meat of that. But I will say just practically. You know, the Apostle, peter is not contradicting himself. When are whereas before, he disobeyed and did it respectfully the governing authorities. I say we can't, we have to speak in the name of Jesus, even they were, they were told not to. Yeah, and Paul of course himself knowing that in many scenarios he could be arrested, and it was. You know, he was told actually in acts later on the governing authorities in Jurus. Some didn't like Paul so much either. You know, I don't know if he's directly told. Don't recall him being directly told don't speak in the name of Jesus, but he was arrested and ultimately given over to the Romans, yeah, for what seems to be an act of civil disobedience. So there's there's some context that I think can easily be, I consolid again, we're not going to be able to do it right here, right now. That lets us know that there are acts of sizzle, civil disobedience, and we see that, course, in the passage. We read in Daniel and in exodus that there are times when, in order to honor God, you have to

45:54 disobey governing a thorn. Yeah, yeah, but it does create, I don't know if that's where you're going. It does create some questions about, well, how far do you take that? It does, it does, and I think it's really important. Something that I was thinking about as I was researching this subject was in all the examples of civil disobedience from an individual who loved the Lord in the Bible, do I ever see an example where violence was used? Yeah, and I don't. I can't recall. And in fact I think Jesus's example is clear that we don't respond with violence.

46:43 Maybe he's arrested, unjustly, arrested for crimes he never committed. Yeah, in the garden of cassemone and and one of his disciples cuts off the ear of one of slee exactly the opposite, right, yeah, he didn't even grab a sword with Peter he rightly, he's the gas ere. Heals the ear and and so I don't think of the things that were called not to do in being civilly disobedient. I don't think we're called to violence. Yeah, I don't see that. Biblically, yeah, I don't either. And of course that's where folks mind will go. If you can just violate laws with then wow, what's holding you back from violating whatever, any law?

47:28 Yeah, but what's holding this bag if you violate a law that you see is unjust? Number one is you don't just do it Willie Neilly. You don't just do it off the cuff and just disregard the law. You've considered the law, you've thought about what this thing might you know for the consequences might be, but also the context of this law and how it contradicts the ord to God and the convictions of your heart. So you don't just do it right off the cuff, Willie neely. It's something that you you have well, you thought it through. Yeah, and you know, as I'm thinking through, these three principles in the middle one of respect. You know, just again from our example on the sidewalk, not that we're a perfect example by any means, but but whenever there has been something proposed by the officers out there as the law that they're you know, at least the law of the day. We, I think, pretty uniformly respectfully approach them and respectfully challenge. Well, can you show us that? Yeah, we asked, you know, show us. Show US where where they're always sad what?

48:38 And and and then we have often used, I think, creative ways to abide by the law but still be able to do what we know we're called to do. Yeah, so you know. And an example on in our situation is we're not allowed to cross a police barricade to hand out literature to women pulling in, even if they roll down their window and reach for it. So we're using grabbers now and we and a baby from all use the reach on the top right. And I think a week ago a baby was literally the mom took the literature from the grabber and and and read the literature and drove out of that place in chose life for her baby. So I think whenever possible you certainly want to work within the confines of the law, but that is not always possible. Yeah, it's not always possible, but you God gives wisdom, God gives us grace that the chief principle here is we have to seek to honor God. We have to fear the Lord.

49:45 Yeah, and if we would fear God and God give us wisdom in these situations, and if we have to fall, follow lawsuit. That's part of the law of the land in this country. The way the constitution is set up, we can actually sue the government for infringing on our rights. We're doing that. So those who are listening, please pray for us. This is law suit. We would a would be victorious in the city would stop trying to hinder what we're doing. Yeah, but we have to honor the Lord. But we have to also understand there are sometimes consequences. Sometimes you're going to get thrown in the fiery furnace or in the Lions Den. God didn't always rescue you. You know, Jesus, ultimately it's different scenario, because he was he was destined to die. But the apostles, they were beaten, they were thrown in prison. Peter was actually later on in acts, I think was chapter five, where he was thrown in prison.

50:32 Yeah, and he suffered. Yeah, and you know what? I think it's maybe the greatest test of faith that I have ever had in my life is how much do you trust God? Yeah, do you know what God says. Are you doing it? And if you're going to bear some harsh and difficult consequences as a result, will you still obey God? Yeah, and and if you do, it's because you believe God. You believe he's there. You REBOI, you believe he eternally rewards those who who obey and follow and love him and you trust that, no matter what happened, he is in control and it will all be used for his purposes. Yeah, yeah, well, I think with that will wrap this thing up. We appreciate those who listen. We would love if you reached out to us.

51:32 You can reach out to me via email and and just suggest maybe some subjects that we can cover. May some maybe some things per life, ministry issues or whatever that you have questions about and you want us to talk through. We'd love to do that. My email is d parks at cities for lifecom. Vicky is v COSSI ORG at cities for lifecom. You can connect with us on our website, CHARLOTTE DOT cities for Life Dot Org, and our sidewalk counseling with training website is www dot sidewalks. The number four Lifecom we'd love to hear from you. Guys. We appreciate those who listen and hope that you had a blessed Christmas and we will talk to you in the New Year. Give me our love for love, give me our loft for gratitude.

52:30 I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious. In some met you