Can You Be Prochoice and A Christian?

WEBVTT100:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, s and me.200:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.349Lord, I welcome to Gospel CenterProlife, the podcast where we talk300:00:10.390 --> 00:00:13.630about pro life issues in light ofthe Gospel. In this episode we're going400:00:13.669 --> 00:00:17.910to ask the question can you bepro choice and a Christian? Hope your500:00:17.949 --> 00:00:26.260blessed is you listen to this episode. Stay tuned. I felt show passish600:00:27.339 --> 00:00:35.219touch your heart. Use. Welcometo the Gospel Center pro life podcast.700:00:36.570 --> 00:00:40.570In our episodes we want to dealwith issues that people face, questions that800:00:40.649 --> 00:00:44.929people have about pro life issues andagain, the whole focus of this podcast900:00:45.369 --> 00:00:49.329is talking about pro life issues andabortion in the light of the Gospel.1000:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.000And so we want to talk todayand the question just came in my mind1100:00:53.000 --> 00:00:55.759the other day, just based onsome stuff that I'd read on facebook and1200:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.119you know, certainly a lot ofthese these debates and questions aren't new,1300:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.670but the question of can you bepro choice and a Christian, and I'd1400:01:04.709 --> 00:01:07.430send you an emails at these thisis like something I think we need to1500:01:07.510 --> 00:01:12.109cover because it's a question that peoplehave. You know, we encounter pro1600:01:12.269 --> 00:01:17.069abortion people on a regular basis inour outreach at the local abortion clinics.1700:01:17.469 --> 00:01:23.540Their pro abortion advocates that stand outthere with signs and whatnot who some claim1800:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.500to be Christians, yea, andclaim to at least have some knowledge of1900:01:26.739 --> 00:01:33.170God. And so to me isan important question. Can you be pro2000:01:33.329 --> 00:01:36.569choice and a Christian at the sametime? Can you be, you know,2100:01:36.650 --> 00:01:40.090we talked about being pro choice.We're talking about, I mean that's2200:01:40.129 --> 00:01:44.730what we call it, pro abortionbecause ultimately they are for abortion being a2300:01:45.329 --> 00:01:49.640you know, woman's right, avalid choice. Correct. Yeah, no,2400:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.599I'd say in some sense. NowI've actually talked to pro choice people2500:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.920before and said, you know,I think you know, I'm pro choice2600:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.390in the sense that God gives usthe ability to choose. It's just that2700:02:01.590 --> 00:02:06.230what you do with that choice,with your choices, is what you're ultimately2800:02:06.230 --> 00:02:10.270held accountable for when you stand beforebefore the Lord. So you know we're2900:02:10.270 --> 00:02:15.229going to tackle that question a littlebit and and so let's just jump right3000:02:15.349 --> 00:02:21.180into it. What can you bepro choice and a Christian at the same3100:02:21.259 --> 00:02:27.099time? Is that possible? Andand my answers no, I think.3200:02:27.539 --> 00:02:30.370I think you know, and hopefullywe'll go into a little more depth probably3300:02:30.409 --> 00:02:36.729about why why we would say that. But you know, I think for3400:02:37.370 --> 00:02:42.650all questions in life you go toscripture. If you call yourself a Christian,3500:02:42.689 --> 00:02:46.960and that's what our premises are.You're calling yourself a Christian and you're3600:02:46.000 --> 00:02:52.039saying that pro choice is a orprobe to have an abortion is a valid3700:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.800choice. Well, if you're aChristian, you should be able to support3800:02:57.039 --> 00:03:02.150that choice. YEA, as faras I'm concerned, you know, with3900:03:02.509 --> 00:03:08.590having conversations about about this on aregular basis with people. Really the truth4000:03:08.629 --> 00:03:15.740of the matter is Christianity cannot beseparated from the Bible. Right, Christianity4100:03:15.860 --> 00:03:22.860and the Bible are our are marriedtogether. You cannot have Christianity without the4200:03:22.979 --> 00:03:28.330Bible. And so as Christians likewhat? Why would we even call ourselves4300:03:28.330 --> 00:03:32.289Christians if we're not going to embracethe book that talks about Christ I had4400:03:32.330 --> 00:03:37.770a conversation with a young man yesterdaywho asked me to prove Christianity is true4500:03:38.250 --> 00:03:43.360without using the Bible. I saidthat's an absurdity because Christianity is a historical4600:03:43.400 --> 00:03:47.639religion built on a historical event,the resurrection of Jesus, and the main4700:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.639source for that historical event is ahistorical book called the New Testament. And4800:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.669you're asking me to prove history withoutusing a history book, and that's an4900:03:55.669 --> 00:04:01.349absurdity. Yeah, Christianity and theBible are inseparable, right. And so5000:04:02.509 --> 00:04:09.750what I guess the question is reallywhat does the scripture say about life in5100:04:09.870 --> 00:04:13.180the womb? You know, aswe began with our first podcast, what5200:04:13.259 --> 00:04:15.860does it mean to be Gospel centeredin prolife? We were in the book,5300:04:15.899 --> 00:04:19.259we're in the Bible. That isVicky's got her for us. He's5400:04:19.300 --> 00:04:23.300got our huge Bible here that obviouslyis going to give a us all that5500:04:23.339 --> 00:04:29.050we need to know about about whatabortion and life means to the Lord.5600:04:29.730 --> 00:04:32.250But so kind of you know,some thoughts on that as far as you5700:04:32.410 --> 00:04:36.769Christianity the word of God in theissue of abortion? Yeah, yeah,5800:04:36.769 --> 00:04:40.959and you know, you got tostart with, I think, the the5900:04:41.120 --> 00:04:45.560basics, which is, first ofall, sanctity of life. Yes,6000:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.879sacred value of human life. Isthere a sacred value of human life?6100:04:49.920 --> 00:04:55.110Does God speak about that? Andand we know he does, from from6200:04:55.149 --> 00:04:58.110the beginning, from the book,and you know, of Genesis, the6300:04:58.149 --> 00:05:00.910first book in the Bible, JennifisGenesis one hundred and twenty seven. So6400:05:01.069 --> 00:05:04.870God created man in his own image, in the image of God He created6500:05:04.949 --> 00:05:10.379them, created him male and female. He created them. So right away6600:05:10.420 --> 00:05:14.980from the get go, from thefirst book, it's God who created human6700:05:15.019 --> 00:05:17.860beings in his image, and Ithink it's really important to talk about what6800:05:17.899 --> 00:05:21.449that means. What does it meanto be created in the image of God?6900:05:21.649 --> 00:05:27.490Yeah, because that probably is whatis the value statement? Yeah,7000:05:28.290 --> 00:05:32.009and and that there's already gender assigned, male and female, and from the7100:05:32.410 --> 00:05:36.439moment of creation, because it's whenhe created them, he created them male7200:05:36.680 --> 00:05:41.000and female. And then right awayafter that, in Verse Twenty Eight,7300:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.959fill the earth and subdue it,rule over the fish of the sea,7400:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.000the birds of the air and overevery living creature that moves on the ground.7500:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.550So we're given dominion, there isa hierarchy and and the human beings7600:05:50.709 --> 00:06:00.629clearly have a a greater value,more or and even responsibility exactly over over7700:06:00.949 --> 00:06:09.500the animals. So so God clearlyhas given a value to human beings.7800:06:09.540 --> 00:06:13.220And and so you know, maybe, Daniel, I know I looked at7900:06:13.259 --> 00:06:16.459this and really I learned a lotas I was kind of studying over.8000:06:16.980 --> 00:06:20.730Well, what does it mean tobe made in God's image? But I'd8100:06:20.730 --> 00:06:26.970be curious what what your thoughts areof that. Yeah, well, that8200:06:27.569 --> 00:06:30.370means a lot actually. What doesit mean to be made in the image8300:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.720of God? One of the importantfactors is the factor of dominion, that8400:06:35.240 --> 00:06:42.439God gives dominion, he gives rulershipto human beings over the creation in it8500:06:42.519 --> 00:06:48.189and it's likened unto God's rulership overthe universe right now. Obviously it's is8600:06:48.230 --> 00:06:51.750not exactly the same, but it'sa it's a position of thought, of8700:06:51.870 --> 00:06:56.430authority being made in the image ofGod. It's also the you know,8800:06:56.949 --> 00:07:01.019God is spirit right, and weare also spiritual beings. That's part of8900:07:01.100 --> 00:07:04.339being made in the image of God, that human beings are spiritual creatures,9000:07:04.420 --> 00:07:10.899where physical creatures, yes, butwe're also spiritual creatures. Were both physical9100:07:11.300 --> 00:07:15.810and spiritual creatures and and so youknow, that's part of us being made9200:07:15.810 --> 00:07:19.290in the image of God. Anotherimportant part is the eternal nature of human9300:07:19.370 --> 00:07:24.009beings. The human beings are eternal, that no matter, you know,9400:07:24.970 --> 00:07:27.730when you die, at some pointwe will, we're all going to die.9500:07:28.290 --> 00:07:33.439Your your spirit and your soul liveson for eternity, and even also9600:07:33.519 --> 00:07:38.040your body after the resurrection of thebody, which could be a whole other9700:07:38.120 --> 00:07:42.360subject. So you know, someeven make the argument that just as God9800:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.949has try une, father, sonand Holy Spirit, that human beings are9900:07:46.029 --> 00:07:48.750try une spirit, soul and body. And now I don't know if I10000:07:48.829 --> 00:07:53.110want to run with that argument.There's some theological discussion about that, whether10100:07:53.189 --> 00:07:58.069people are try une or or orwe're just spirit and body. But the10200:07:58.149 --> 00:08:01.259point is is what. We're madein the image of God and it means10300:08:01.259 --> 00:08:05.980a couple of different things. Youknow, creativity is one of those things.10400:08:05.060 --> 00:08:09.180Yeah, what? What other creatureis creative? Right, right,10500:08:09.220 --> 00:08:15.250human beings are creative just by ournature. Like we create things, we10600:08:15.730 --> 00:08:18.209paint, we know, write,we whatever we do, we just we10700:08:18.290 --> 00:08:24.649share some of God's attribute, suchas exactly. So we're not originators of10800:08:24.569 --> 00:08:28.160things like God, is it inthe originator of the creation, but like10900:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.200God, similar to him, wecreate stuff. We have this creative mind11000:08:33.440 --> 00:08:35.240that we so that that's part ofwhat it means to be made in the11100:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.440impage of God. But I thinkyou know just in mind, and you11200:08:39.720 --> 00:08:41.429tell me if this is your experienceas well. You share with me a11300:08:41.710 --> 00:08:46.429friend of yours, or at leastan acquaintance, that that you claim to11400:08:46.470 --> 00:08:50.309be a Christian and in claim tobe pro choice. At the same time.11500:08:50.590 --> 00:08:54.669Right from my experience from people whoclaim to be pro choice and and11600:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.100still a Christian, what I whatI get from them? A lot of11700:08:58.220 --> 00:09:03.700times it's sort of a mentality ofwell, I'm against abortion for me,11800:09:05.059 --> 00:09:07.899like I would never have an abortion, is what they would say exactly.11900:09:07.940 --> 00:09:11.049But I can't force my morality onanother person. So that's sort of the12000:09:11.169 --> 00:09:13.730mentality and it's, you know,in one sense it's sort of like,12100:09:15.649 --> 00:09:18.409I guess it's a noble thing,right, because you don't want to be12200:09:18.490 --> 00:09:22.649judgmental, you don't want to bepushing your beliefs on another person. And12300:09:24.289 --> 00:09:28.960you know, I get that andto some extent I agree that we aren't12400:09:28.960 --> 00:09:35.000to force our beliefs on another person. But that sort of equates trying to12500:09:35.080 --> 00:09:41.590persist, persuade someone with what youbelieve with actually forcing that belief on someone,12600:09:41.629 --> 00:09:45.509and those two are not the samething, right, like Christianity is12700:09:45.909 --> 00:09:50.990actually directly opposed to forcing our beliefson people. We actually want to persuade12800:09:50.990 --> 00:09:56.539people to believe because to become aChristian it's not just someone makes you a12900:09:56.580 --> 00:09:58.620Christian, someone waves a magic wandand forces you to be a quick Christian13000:09:58.620 --> 00:10:01.700or Dunct, you under some waterand you become a Christian. Not to13100:10:01.740 --> 00:10:05.620be a question a Christian. Yourheart has to be persuaded and turned to13200:10:05.740 --> 00:10:07.970the Lord Right, and so that'sthe very nature of Christian yeah, yeah,13300:10:09.210 --> 00:10:16.169and if you claim Christ then scriptsure should be your guide and we13400:10:16.330 --> 00:10:20.610as Christians are called to prevent thosewho are stumbling to the slaughter, to13500:10:20.809 --> 00:10:24.039rescue the week, to speak forthose who cannot speak, to go and13600:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.799make disciples. In other words,there is action involved. One of the13700:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.000one of the things that really,I mean I cringe when I hear it,13800:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.429is share the Gospel, to Meme, share the Gospel and, if13900:10:37.669 --> 00:10:41.070necessary, use words. Hate that, hate that, because that is so14000:10:41.870 --> 00:10:46.870not biblical. Yeah, I meanthe Bible is filled with versus that we14100:10:46.990 --> 00:10:52.179are to go and we are tospeak. Who will go? Send Me,14200:10:52.740 --> 00:10:56.460not, who will go? Well, I'll be in the background,14300:10:56.620 --> 00:10:58.340you know, praying that you makethe right choice. But he we are14400:10:58.460 --> 00:11:05.490to be sent into to take action, and so I think that that's,14500:11:05.889 --> 00:11:11.690for me, one of the mostdisturbing things about the socalled, well,14600:11:11.850 --> 00:11:18.039a socalled Christian, being so calledthe pro choice. In that I think14700:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.480scripture is very clear that when thereare weak, vulnerable, mute, those14800:11:24.519 --> 00:11:30.360who cannot protect themselves, we areto go and we are to speak for14900:11:30.519 --> 00:11:35.190them. Yeah, and I thinkthat demolishes the argument. Can I be15000:11:35.309 --> 00:11:39.149a Christian and be pro choice?You can be pro choice in the terms15100:11:39.190 --> 00:11:43.070of how God speaks about choice,like can deteronomy, what is it three15200:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.629thousand and nineteen, where he says, I set before you blessing and curse,15300:11:46.789 --> 00:11:50.779life or death. Therefore, chooselife right that you and your offspring15400:11:50.980 --> 00:11:52.539may live. You can be prochoice in that way. Yeah, but15500:11:52.820 --> 00:11:58.740to say that I'm a Christian andI'm going to ignore God's clear commands regarding15600:11:58.779 --> 00:12:05.929the value of human beings first ofall, and then disregard his commands about15700:12:05.049 --> 00:12:11.370taking action to defend those innocent humanbeings that God has created in values,15800:12:11.850 --> 00:12:16.919I don't think you have a biblicalstance. Yeah, yeah, no,15900:12:18.039 --> 00:12:22.840I'd say you definitely. You,from my perspective, you definitely don't have16000:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.960a biblical stance. And and youknow as a shit earlier before you even16100:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.080started the podcast, a lot ofthis is kind of kind of rooted in16200:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.629almost like the selfishness in this thisidea that you know, I don't want16300:12:31.629 --> 00:12:35.269to be seeing seen as judgmental right, it's like one of the biggest fears16400:12:35.429 --> 00:12:41.590that American Christians have at least,is appearing to be judgmental in so many16500:12:41.830 --> 00:12:46.259things, not just abortion but inall the sexual revolution and everything. We16600:12:46.379 --> 00:12:52.460can't possibly tell someone what maybe isnormal or right or good or follows God's16700:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.179yeah, fear Word on, becausewe would be seeing is judgment is almost16800:12:56.179 --> 00:13:01.850like again, the biggest fear.This is kind of the this is the16900:13:01.889 --> 00:13:05.169absurdity of it. It's like ifyou believe someone might say, yeah,17000:13:05.210 --> 00:13:09.809I'm Christian but I'm pro choice.I would never have abortion because for me17100:13:09.850 --> 00:13:13.120it's morally wrong, but I couldnever tell someone that they shouldn't have an17200:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.000abortion. Then you're sort of missingthe point. Like why? Why is17300:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.559it a moral wrong for you todo it? It's a moral wrong for17400:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.080you to do it, I think, in your mind because you know it's17500:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.870killing another person. Well, ifit's wrong for you to kill another person,17600:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.389then why is it right for someoneelse, who may not believe that's17700:13:31.389 --> 00:13:33.870a person, to kill that person? Like their lack of belief in the17800:13:33.990 --> 00:13:39.110personhood of that child does not makethat act a moral act. It's still17900:13:39.190 --> 00:13:43.460immoral. It's still wrong, it'sstill sinful. Right again, I think18000:13:43.460 --> 00:13:46.299it's I think it's really that people, that Christians, that might say that18100:13:46.340 --> 00:13:50.700their pro choice and I think weneed to I think we need to sort18200:13:50.740 --> 00:13:54.100of separate this a little bit andthat there, I believe, are some18300:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.730that could be ignorant. It's possible. It's hard for me to believe,18400:13:58.409 --> 00:14:01.169but it's possible that people, maybenew believers whatever, just ignorant about the18500:14:01.250 --> 00:14:05.610issue, ignorance spiritually or ignorant init about what's involved into just ignorant just18600:14:05.690 --> 00:14:09.649in general. Maybe they don't,maybe they do believe the lie that,18700:14:09.809 --> 00:14:11.360you know, it's a Blob oftissue, clump of sales yea, saying18800:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.960yeah, I think they're yeah.Certainly there needs to be allowance for that.18900:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.720And in the Bible tells us,Actually Paul Right into Timothy Tells Timothy19000:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.950to be patient, not be combative, be patient and answering those who are19100:14:24.990 --> 00:14:28.149in opposition so that God might grantthem repentant. So I think there's a19200:14:28.230 --> 00:14:31.309there's a time and place certainly tokind of slow down when someone says they're19300:14:31.389 --> 00:14:35.070Christian and their pro choice. It'skind of slow down, don't be offended19400:14:35.149 --> 00:14:37.659saying are you're not, you're awicked reprobate. You know, we don't19500:14:37.659 --> 00:14:41.899need to take that attitude. Therecertainly is a time and place where we19600:14:41.940 --> 00:14:43.740say, you know what, theBible's God's word. If you're not following19700:14:43.820 --> 00:14:46.659what God's word says, then youcan't claim to be a Christian, because19800:14:46.860 --> 00:14:50.220that is the foundation of Christianity.That the word God right. But to19900:14:50.340 --> 00:14:52.929your pointed, there is the verseand I can't remember if it's the verse20000:14:54.009 --> 00:14:56.970you quota. But restore them gently. You are to restore we are called20100:14:58.009 --> 00:15:01.210to restore them if we see abrother in sin, and if that someone's20200:15:01.250 --> 00:15:05.330claiming to be a Christian and claimingthat abortion is a valid choice, then20300:15:05.370 --> 00:15:09.919they should be restored to a properunderstanding. But we are to do it20400:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.960in gentleness. Yeah, yeah,you know the word choice is. It20500:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.000can be a tricky word, youknow. In reality, I was talking20600:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.870to some folks actually on the sidewalkjust just the other day, some young20700:15:20.909 --> 00:15:26.029folks, and I'll saying, youknow what truth is, you can choose20800:15:26.110 --> 00:15:30.710to do whatever you want to.You really can. You can choose to20900:15:30.830 --> 00:15:33.389do whatever you want to. Youcan go and stand on that building over21000:15:33.429 --> 00:15:39.460there and you can choose to justdisbelieve in gravity and jump off. The21100:15:39.580 --> 00:15:45.460fact is your choice is going toimply some consequences or incurse some consequences.21200:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.899Right, if you choose to jumpoff that building, then you're the consequences.21300:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.809You're going to hit the ground.Right. There's a consequence every choice.21400:15:52.889 --> 00:15:56.210Could could a mother choose to killher unborn child? Yes, she21500:15:56.370 --> 00:16:00.370could choose to do that. Unfortunately, in this country gets still legal and21600:16:00.490 --> 00:16:03.929she can go into an abortion clinicand pay three hundred and sixty dollars,21700:16:03.009 --> 00:16:07.279like it is here in Charlotte orother places. Whatever. You know,21800:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.279it's whatever the prize might be.He's going to pay that money to in21900:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.080the life of a child. Shecan choose to do that. A mother22000:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.039could choose to do that to herthree year old. She can go and22100:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.029slid her three year olds through it. I mean a mother here, not22200:16:21.190 --> 00:16:23.590too far from here, in Georgia, apparently birth church old and chose to22300:16:23.629 --> 00:16:27.590put in a plastic bag and throwit in the wood. She could choose22400:16:27.629 --> 00:16:32.860to do that. Right. Shedid apparently choose to do that. It22500:16:33.019 --> 00:16:36.580was not right. Yeah, justbecause you're you got to give someone the22600:16:36.659 --> 00:16:38.940ability to do something does not meanhe's okay with the choice that they make.22700:16:40.379 --> 00:16:42.340That's really the question. Yeah,the trust. The question is not22800:16:42.539 --> 00:16:48.129a can question really, it's ashould question. Yeah, should people take22900:16:48.169 --> 00:16:52.090the lives of their babies? Throwabortion right, and should we as Christians23000:16:52.490 --> 00:16:56.009be okay with right? Do notuse your freedom as a license to sin.23100:16:56.129 --> 00:16:57.809Yeah, Paull's clear about that.We Are we are not to do23200:16:59.289 --> 00:17:03.480to do that. But, andyou know, again this is kind of23300:17:03.759 --> 00:17:08.759a separate point, but Jesus specificallysays, why do you call me Lord23400:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.640Lord and not do what I say? Well, one of the commandments is23500:17:11.720 --> 00:17:19.150that shall not murder. Yeah,and and so the pro choice folks might23600:17:19.190 --> 00:17:22.349say, well, it's not murder, right, and that is what I23700:17:22.430 --> 00:17:26.630hear. Right. I'm sure youhear it too. It's not murdered because23800:17:26.750 --> 00:17:30.019they claim it's not a human being. And then you have tesk. Well,23900:17:30.180 --> 00:17:33.500at what point does script should say, if you're a Christian, when24000:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.579does God say it's a human being? Well, he says from the moment24100:17:37.660 --> 00:17:41.539of conception. There's plenty of likeversus in Psalm, Psalm one hundred and24200:17:41.539 --> 00:17:44.849thirty nine, where it talks aboutknitting together us together in the womb and24300:17:45.329 --> 00:17:48.289from the moment that that we wereknitted together in the womb, he knew24400:17:48.329 --> 00:17:52.329us in the in Jeremiah, henamed Jeremiah, is a prophet to the24500:17:52.369 --> 00:17:56.170nation's before one day of his cameto be. So there's many verses that24600:17:56.329 --> 00:18:02.279talk about that. They're human fromthe moment of conception. So when there24700:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.319is the taking of innocent human life, it is murder. Yeah, that24800:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.720that's what murder is, right.Yeah, and you know so one of24900:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.150the arguments is in this can kindof be getting off track a little bit,25000:18:15.630 --> 00:18:18.950but that abortion is not technically murderbecause murder is a legal term and25100:18:19.150 --> 00:18:22.670since the the government in this countryat least, says that it's okay.25200:18:22.950 --> 00:18:26.339Right, there is not technically murder. You know, I might, would,25300:18:26.539 --> 00:18:29.619might, would agree. Yeah,I might, would say, you25400:18:29.819 --> 00:18:33.299know what abortion in the United Statesof America's currently not murder. Should be25500:18:34.299 --> 00:18:37.660in and in the eyes of God, which ultimately ask Christians right, there's25600:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.849a higher law. Exactly, exactly. That's our standard. Is what the25700:18:41.890 --> 00:18:44.690Bible says. When God says thatI shall not murder, I don't think25800:18:44.690 --> 00:18:48.009he's talking about what whatever. Yeah, the laws, however, the laws25900:18:48.130 --> 00:18:52.289define murder. I define murder asthe taking will not meet God. You26000:18:52.410 --> 00:18:55.720definds murderous, the taking of innocentlaw. Yeah, and you know,26100:18:55.960 --> 00:19:00.480I think a lot of it ispossibly ignorant arants. As far as someone26200:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.400who might claim to be a Christianand be pro choice, some of us,26300:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.839of course, just their false converts. They just really aren't Christians,26400:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.910right. They just, and that'sprobably the majority of people that would claim26500:19:10.910 --> 00:19:15.109to be pro choice, just simplythey're not born of God and they slap26600:19:15.190 --> 00:19:18.829the tag of Christianity on for culturalreasons or maybe because it makes them feel26700:19:18.829 --> 00:19:22.069good on Sunday or whatever it mightbe. But the fact is, their26800:19:22.109 --> 00:19:26.460false converse. But those who maybeare, you know, Christians or at26900:19:26.460 --> 00:19:30.460least Christianized in some way, thatclaim to be pro choice, think probably27000:19:30.539 --> 00:19:34.099have not really thought it out sowell, which hopefully, you know us27100:19:34.140 --> 00:19:37.650talking about this, hopefully some folkswill pick up on this and and really27200:19:37.690 --> 00:19:41.170think these things through. Yeah,well, let me ask you, because27300:19:41.210 --> 00:19:45.009I think part of that is isgoing back to where we are. Not27400:19:45.210 --> 00:19:47.769to judge, I do think thatthat's that's what I hear a lot.27500:19:47.849 --> 00:19:52.690And Yeah, you're from from myfriends, not or acquaintances that that say.27600:19:52.559 --> 00:19:59.359You know, I agree that abortionis wrong and and and that I27700:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.240wouldn't do it, like you said, but I can't judge. I should27800:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.950not judge. We're told biblically.They say that we are not to judge27900:20:07.990 --> 00:20:14.390others. And you being out onthe sidewalk and telling these moms you know,28000:20:14.549 --> 00:20:19.150taking the life of your child iswrong. They feel is they call28100:20:19.269 --> 00:20:22.819us not Christian. Yeah, becauseso Christian be. So I think,28200:20:22.859 --> 00:20:29.140I I think that maybe you couldtalk about well, what are we not28300:20:29.299 --> 00:20:32.579to judge? Do we not do? Are we not supposed to judge?28400:20:32.660 --> 00:20:36.609Because if we are supposed to judge, that seems like something we could maybe28500:20:36.690 --> 00:20:40.289make a judgment about whether it's okayfor mom to take their baby's life.28600:20:40.529 --> 00:20:45.650Yeah, I think when people sayit's like number, like number one quoted28700:20:45.690 --> 00:20:48.369verse. Yeah, we're at anabortion center, right. I agree.28800:20:48.130 --> 00:20:53.000Thou shalt not just people even sometimesquote it in perfect King James English exactly28900:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.960how shalt not judge it. Theatheist, the APE is that I'll Sam29000:20:57.000 --> 00:21:03.480an atheist, but the Bible saysyour bibles was right, the eleventh command29100:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.430right exactly. But actually that's notfound in the Bible. Thou shall not29200:21:08.470 --> 00:21:14.750judge. Is Not in the Biblethe principle of judging people. And what's29300:21:14.789 --> 00:21:18.349what Jesus deals with when he saysjudge not lest you be judge. Right,29400:21:18.470 --> 00:21:19.420he goes on. It doesn't juststop there. Didn Say Right,29500:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.059does not lest you be judge.There's the context. He says for in29600:21:22.099 --> 00:21:26.259the same measure that used to judgewill be measured back to you. And29700:21:26.339 --> 00:21:30.539then he talks about you know,why do you judge your brother who has29800:21:30.579 --> 00:21:33.450a speck in his eye when you'vegot a log sticking out of your own29900:21:33.490 --> 00:21:36.170or plank sticking out of your owne? Then he goes on to say30000:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.289first remove the plank from your eyeand then you can see clearly to help30100:21:40.289 --> 00:21:44.690your brother remove the speck from hiseye. So if looking at the speck30200:21:44.769 --> 00:21:48.559in our brother's eyes judgment and whatJesus is talking about saying don't do,30300:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.039then why is he say remove theplank first and then you can help your30400:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.160brother see? The fact is he'stalking about hypocritical judgment. He's talking about30500:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.759judging people for doing the same stuffthat you're doing, which is hypocrisy,30600:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.190which is evil and which we needto guard our hearts against like if we're30700:22:03.230 --> 00:22:07.190going around pointing the finger at otherpeople for doing stuff that we ourselves are30800:22:07.269 --> 00:22:11.789doing. And you know, he'smore than likely talking in particular about the30900:22:11.789 --> 00:22:18.059Pharisees who claim to have this outwardreligious thing going on and yet really inside,31000:22:18.099 --> 00:22:19.819he says, you guys, you'relike whitewashed tombs. You look good31100:22:19.819 --> 00:22:23.259on the outside, but inside you'refull of dead man's bones. That's hypocrisy.31200:22:23.339 --> 00:22:29.059When it's it's you know, kindof people, through judgments, that31300:22:29.180 --> 00:22:33.170would ever individual or ever lifestyle theycan to make themselves really feel and look31400:22:33.250 --> 00:22:38.970better. That's wrong. We shouldn'tdo that. But to imagine that just31500:22:40.210 --> 00:22:45.400practically as human beings, not justset aside just being Christians. Now,31600:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.079certainly is Christians. We were goingto talk about that, but it's human31700:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.920beings. We have to make judgmentsevery day. We make it. What31800:22:52.000 --> 00:22:57.079does a judgment basically, a judgmentis an assessment of behavior. Right.31900:22:57.440 --> 00:23:03.069It's like I'm looking at a particularbehavior and I'm making a judgment of whether32000:23:03.069 --> 00:23:07.950or not that's right or whether it'swrong. And that's normal life. That's32100:23:07.990 --> 00:23:11.309like everyday life. You do itwhen you're driving down the road. You32200:23:11.390 --> 00:23:14.700know, I get behind some OldLady who's driving with her hands on the32300:23:14.700 --> 00:23:15.619steering with, I make a judgmentand I say, you know what,32400:23:15.940 --> 00:23:18.740she's probably going to keep me fromgetting to my destination in time, so32500:23:18.740 --> 00:23:22.819I better go around her. Right. Well, even the pro choice people,32600:23:22.900 --> 00:23:25.980when they say thou shall not judge, are making a judgment. They're32700:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.130judging that we're just yeah, that'sso, it happens all the time.32800:23:29.329 --> 00:23:32.289All of us do it all thetime. Yeah, certainly, and we32900:23:32.529 --> 00:23:34.089make judgments about all kinds of stuff. Now, of course, in this33000:23:34.170 --> 00:23:37.970context were talking about moral judgments.We're talking about whether or not something is33100:23:38.210 --> 00:23:44.000right or whether it's wrong, whetherit's moral or immoral right. And so33200:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.200oftentimes, I think when people talkabout not judging them, you know,33300:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.200especially people going into an abortion clinic, it's a fig leaf. All in33400:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.990all, it is for them,at least from my understanding and from my33500:23:56.150 --> 00:23:59.910experience, is they're trying to throwsome of the guilt that they feel back33600:24:00.029 --> 00:24:02.509on you. You know, yes, what I'm doing is wrong, killing33700:24:02.549 --> 00:24:04.390my baby through abortion, but whatyou're doing just as wrong, because you're33800:24:04.430 --> 00:24:07.710judging me for it. And againit's an absurdity right. It doesn't make33900:24:07.750 --> 00:24:11.299sense. It doesn't make sense.And in any other scenario, you know,34000:24:11.380 --> 00:24:15.579you imagine, you know, amother is about to slit the throat34100:24:15.619 --> 00:24:17.819of for three year old, likeI talked about earlier. Could a mother34200:24:17.900 --> 00:24:21.299do that? She could certainly useher volition and do that. She's gonna34300:24:21.299 --> 00:24:23.450stuff for the consequences and that wouldbe immoral. I think everybody would agree34400:24:23.450 --> 00:24:27.289with that. But imagine she's doingthat and you come on that scene and34500:24:27.410 --> 00:24:32.170you like stop, don't do that, that's that's wrong. What if she34600:24:32.289 --> 00:24:34.250look back at you as she's gotthe knife to the to the child's throat,34700:24:34.289 --> 00:24:38.079and says you're judging me, stopjudging me. Everyone else would see34800:24:38.079 --> 00:24:45.240that as like this person is reallycompletely deceived. They are about to kill34900:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.480a person and yet they're talking aboutme judging them. And yet that's what35000:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.910we see at an abortion class.So we see in conversations with people who35100:24:53.309 --> 00:24:57.670who claim to be Christians and prochoice or whatever, who, when they35200:24:57.710 --> 00:25:02.150talk about judgment right, they reallymean don't tell me what I'm doing is35300:25:02.269 --> 00:25:04.589immoral. Right, yeah, andand, but, but we are told35400:25:04.829 --> 00:25:10.619throughout scripture we are to judge correctly, judge righteously remove the log. But35500:25:10.779 --> 00:25:14.140then, so the implication is then, after we move the plank in your35600:25:14.140 --> 00:25:17.619own eye, then then you areable to see clearly to judge. So35700:25:17.940 --> 00:25:22.250where to judge? Angels? Right. So we are called upon as Christians35800:25:22.329 --> 00:25:25.730to judge. And in fact,how can we be light to the world35900:25:25.890 --> 00:25:32.410and salt preserving a culture, whichis what salt is, a preservative we36000:25:32.609 --> 00:25:36.119are as Christians, we are thelight. We illuminate the darkness, we36100:25:36.200 --> 00:25:42.039illuminate sin. Yeah, and weare salved. We preserve the pure righteousness36200:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.440of God. How can we dothat if we're unable to judge what is36300:25:45.480 --> 00:25:51.349right or wrong? So God,he he is our righteousness. He is36400:25:51.470 --> 00:25:55.470what gives us the ability to judge, and that's what scripture says. As36500:25:55.549 --> 00:26:00.750the Holy Spirit enters, he teachesus and guides us into all righteousness so36600:26:00.869 --> 00:26:04.819that we are able to judge withrighteousness. And I think for a Christian36700:26:04.940 --> 00:26:08.220to not use that gift of God, it's a gift, it's a gift36800:26:08.259 --> 00:26:12.980to be able to go to othersand rescue them from stumbling to the slaughter,36900:26:14.579 --> 00:26:18.130I think it is denying again whatwhat we have been called to do.37000:26:18.490 --> 00:26:23.930Yeah, absolutely, scripture says thatthe righteous man judges all things.37100:26:25.369 --> 00:26:30.930Yeah, the righteous man or womanmakes an assessment of certain behaviors and certain37200:26:32.009 --> 00:26:36.359things. Now, you know thejudgments that we make if they're motivated by37300:26:36.440 --> 00:26:40.079selfishness, like if I'm making ajudgment, a moral assessment about someone else's37400:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.559behavior and the root of that isto make me feel better about myself,37500:26:42.680 --> 00:26:47.000like that person is really immoral andeven though I'm in moral I'm not as37600:26:47.079 --> 00:26:48.670immoral is them. So it makesme feel better. That's that's wrong right.37700:26:49.150 --> 00:26:52.789But if our judgment of something that'simmoral is rooted in, you know,37800:26:52.910 --> 00:26:56.230love for God first, because that'swhere I love is supposed to be37900:26:56.269 --> 00:26:57.910in our affections are supposed to beto God first, but also to our38000:26:57.950 --> 00:27:00.779neighbor, you know, like theissue of homosexuality. You know, I38100:27:00.819 --> 00:27:04.259would I look at that, thatbehavior and I say that it's immoral,38200:27:04.380 --> 00:27:07.980and I look in God's Word andbased on what God says and God's disapproval38300:27:07.980 --> 00:27:12.059of that lifestyle, I can saythat's in it's immoral. And when I38400:27:12.099 --> 00:27:15.849talk to a homosexual and I saylisten, your lifestyle, and you know38500:27:15.890 --> 00:27:18.250I'm not telling them you God hatefags or anything like that. But I'm38600:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.329telling them, according to what Isee in the word of God, that38700:27:22.490 --> 00:27:26.049lifestyle is unacceptable to God. I'mnot doing that to make myself feel better.38800:27:26.329 --> 00:27:30.480I'm not doing that because I wantthem to feel bad necessarily. I'm38900:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.319doing that because I know that they'reheaded toward destruction. Yeah, they're headed39000:27:33.319 --> 00:27:40.480toward a destructive in that destructive direction, live in a destructive lifestyle. And39100:27:40.559 --> 00:27:45.269the same way with a mom goinginto an abortion clinic or someone who thinks39200:27:45.309 --> 00:27:48.430it's okay to take a baby's lifethrough abortion. We know, based on39300:27:48.589 --> 00:27:52.509scripture, that we're all going tostand before God and give an account for39400:27:52.630 --> 00:27:56.549our lives. And you know,I gave this example actually to to one39500:27:56.589 --> 00:28:00.900of the pro abortion ladies months andmonths ago when she was talking about you39600:28:02.019 --> 00:28:06.579know, you're you know you hada I think they actually mentioned about you.39700:28:06.619 --> 00:28:10.019You had abortion in your past.And Vicky's out here judging these people39800:28:10.059 --> 00:28:12.210for doing something that she did.And how can she do that? How39900:28:12.289 --> 00:28:15.450can she judge these people for doingsomething she did? Her abortion was okay40000:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.970and there's aren't. And of courseyou've never said you're abortion. Absolutely not.40100:28:19.210 --> 00:28:22.730That's the first premise that's absolutely right. It was far from U but40200:28:22.809 --> 00:28:26.730I gave the example just off thetop of my head, the Best I40300:28:26.769 --> 00:28:29.160could come up with. But youknow, there's woods right across the street40400:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.680from from the abortion center there,and I said, what if I went40500:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.519in those woods and I got bitby by copper head? And I was40600:28:36.599 --> 00:28:38.079walking through those woods after I gotbit by a copper head and I see40700:28:38.079 --> 00:28:41.630there's ten copper heads and there's ahundred. The whole woods are full of40800:28:41.670 --> 00:28:45.150copper heads and I made it,by the grace of God, out of40900:28:45.190 --> 00:28:48.910those woods and got medical attention andfinally got back on my feet and I41000:28:48.029 --> 00:28:51.549came out here and I saw peoplegoing into those woods and I yell them41100:28:51.589 --> 00:28:53.269don't go in there. There's copperheads in there. They will kill you41200:28:53.509 --> 00:28:56.380like you will. You will loseyour life, you end up in the41300:28:56.420 --> 00:29:00.259hospital like I did. Would thatbe like immoral for me to do that41400:29:00.579 --> 00:29:03.259or I think that would be oneof the most moral things I could do.41500:29:03.380 --> 00:29:06.619That's a great example, and thoughthe least moral thing you could do41600:29:06.779 --> 00:29:08.500is to come out this is ahey, you got you gotta go.41700:29:08.619 --> 00:29:11.250Take me that path. I'm notgonna Change You for going in there.41800:29:11.369 --> 00:29:14.930Yeah, exact. And so weknow, based on, you know,41900:29:15.009 --> 00:29:19.569your personal experience, based on conversationswith with many people who've had abortions right,42000:29:21.089 --> 00:29:23.250that it's destructive, certainly to thebaby, and that's that's sort of42100:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.920you know where we're coming from.Obviously it's destructive to the baby, but42200:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.680it's also destructive to the mothers thathave abortions. That's right. Um,42300:29:32.119 --> 00:29:37.319it's destructive to families. They're touchedby abortion. We've seen the ravages of42400:29:37.480 --> 00:29:42.509abortion in in in relationships and families, with with grandparents of mothers who've had42500:29:42.509 --> 00:29:48.190abortions and and all the like.It it's ugly tentacles reach into every area42600:29:48.349 --> 00:29:52.750of society. It does. Andlook at the the the couple that stopped42700:29:52.829 --> 00:29:56.660today, that that stopped to theythey had an eight year old in their42800:29:56.779 --> 00:30:00.460car. who had they had cometo the trobe where we are on the42900:30:00.539 --> 00:30:06.420sidewalk eight years ago to abort theirchild. The woman came. I don't43000:30:06.460 --> 00:30:10.809believe that the father the child waswith her. She was being told that43100:30:11.289 --> 00:30:14.410she had to do that in orderto not to have the rest of her43200:30:14.410 --> 00:30:18.529children removed from her home. Soshe was being coerced. Clearly illegal clearly43300:30:18.690 --> 00:30:23.359wrong. But the father was nota part of that. And and today43400:30:23.839 --> 00:30:30.759she came to show her children thisis what almost happened. These are the43500:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.750people that showed me and helped menot to do that. And then she43600:30:36.950 --> 00:30:41.069came back again about a half anhour later with the father of a eight43700:30:41.069 --> 00:30:45.029year old, and that father isalmost in tears as he's shaking my hand.43800:30:45.269 --> 00:30:48.430I wasn't the one that was hereeight years ago, but thanking us,43900:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.740thanking cities for life and saying that'smy baby, that's my baby.44000:30:53.420 --> 00:30:57.660So the you know, the factthat there were people out there that were44100:30:59.180 --> 00:31:03.529judging right from wrong was what preservedthat that child's life, but also that44200:31:03.849 --> 00:31:11.609father that he would have been oneof the sacrifices, as the casualties.44300:31:11.690 --> 00:31:15.250That's what I meant, the casualtyof abortion, because she went there,44400:31:15.289 --> 00:31:18.400as far as I know, withoutwithout his knowledge. Yeah, he was44500:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.200the father that child. So you'reexactly right. It it's it's so destructive44600:31:22.240 --> 00:31:30.240and who better really to speak aboutthe destruction from abortion than someone who has44700:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.109personally experienced and yeah, yeah,so one of the first things my sister44800:31:33.150 --> 00:31:40.829asked me when when I started workingwith cities for life was, well,44900:31:41.470 --> 00:31:44.950how can you do that? Whatabout your own abortion? Yeah, and45000:31:45.029 --> 00:31:49.619I said that's why I'm doing it, because I know the horror of what45100:31:49.779 --> 00:31:55.259I did and I didn't recognize itat the time, yet I do now.45200:31:55.740 --> 00:32:00.529And I think the greatest act oflove that that you can show towards45300:32:00.569 --> 00:32:06.609another human being is if you areable to keep them from a path that45400:32:06.849 --> 00:32:13.849you know is going to result indespair and horror that you direct them.45500:32:13.890 --> 00:32:17.119Yeah, otherwise. Yeah, andof course you know, even that aside,45600:32:17.279 --> 00:32:22.640you know it's not true that womenaren't affected by abortions. They are45700:32:22.640 --> 00:32:28.240affected by abortions. But even ifthey weren't, still we're looking at at45800:32:28.279 --> 00:32:34.029an act that actively destroys the lifeof an innocent person. Yeah, and45900:32:34.309 --> 00:32:38.470as believers in Jesus and people whobelieve, like where we started, that46000:32:38.630 --> 00:32:44.539human beings are unique in our value. Every creature is valuable, but not46100:32:44.660 --> 00:32:46.299every creature is made in the imageof God, and that's not every creature46200:32:46.299 --> 00:32:51.299has the same value. Human beingshave a value that's above and beyond it's46300:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.700not pride, it's what God's wordsays, and we're looking at what God46400:32:54.859 --> 00:33:00.529says about human beings and to imaginethat it's okay and that we shouldn't make46500:33:00.569 --> 00:33:05.450a judgment about the destruction of innocenthuman lives. Is, you know again,46600:33:05.490 --> 00:33:08.569it's it makes us disagree with God. You know, we disagree with46700:33:08.690 --> 00:33:13.599God, and you know, asa believer, I mean the way that46800:33:13.720 --> 00:33:19.079you come into the faith is byagreeing with God. You don't come into46900:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.680the faith, you don't become aChristian until you've agreed that God is righteous,47000:33:22.880 --> 00:33:28.589he's holy, and that your sinis wrong and that you need to47100:33:28.630 --> 00:33:31.069be saved. Right, that hasto be the way you have to do.47200:33:31.109 --> 00:33:34.230You have to understand you're a center, that you need a savior,47300:33:34.269 --> 00:33:37.589which is agreeing with God's word.So, therefore, everything else that flows47400:33:37.630 --> 00:33:42.140out of our lives as Christians shouldbe in agreement with God. It doesn't47500:33:42.140 --> 00:33:45.660mean like, you know, I'veread some passages where, you know,47600:33:45.779 --> 00:33:49.500God's really cut me deep. Youknow, Hebrews Twelve, is it?47700:33:49.539 --> 00:33:52.059Where the God's Word is like atwo edged sword? Right, I've been47800:33:52.099 --> 00:33:54.099cut. You've probably been cut byGod's words. Like it's not stuff I47900:33:54.099 --> 00:33:57.930disagree with, but stuff I don'tparticularly like, like I have to love48000:33:58.009 --> 00:34:00.890my enemies, you know, Ihave to lay my life down. I48100:34:00.970 --> 00:34:04.849have to love my wife as Christlove the church. Yeah, that's not48200:34:05.130 --> 00:34:08.050easy and it's going to be hardfor me, but I agree that what48300:34:08.130 --> 00:34:12.159you say is right, God,and I'm going to buy your grace do48400:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.599what you've called me to do.So, when we come to places in48500:34:15.719 --> 00:34:17.320God's word, and you know,we look at society and it has its48600:34:17.400 --> 00:34:22.239opinions and it has its morality,which is always changing, it always shifting,48700:34:22.239 --> 00:34:29.909we cannot take society's morality and justreceive it as Christians and say,48800:34:30.030 --> 00:34:31.989well, you know, it's Society'smorality, so that's because that's what my48900:34:32.110 --> 00:34:36.429morality is, and disregard the wordof God. Once we begin to disregard49000:34:36.469 --> 00:34:42.019the word of God, then wehave removed ourselves from the foundation of Christianity49100:34:42.099 --> 00:34:45.460itself. And so to disregard God'sword and still claim to be a Christian49200:34:46.099 --> 00:34:51.219is is a contradiction. It's justit's just not not possible. Yeah,49300:34:51.219 --> 00:34:53.289Jesus was the word, I meanthe word, the word God. God49400:34:53.369 --> 00:34:57.889used the word to speak all creationinto being. So the word is critical49500:34:58.010 --> 00:35:04.010and it's it should be the thego to foundation of absolutely every red.49600:35:04.090 --> 00:35:08.559Yeah, everything that we are,and that applies to whether we believe abortion49700:35:08.679 --> 00:35:13.760is right or wrong and whether webelieve that we should take a stand,49800:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.199yeah, for or against. Ialways always return to well, what does49900:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.909God say? Yeah, I meanI think also, you know, just50000:35:22.030 --> 00:35:25.550kind of wrapping up here, oneof the mentalities of people who maybe wouldn't50100:35:25.550 --> 00:35:29.429go as far as even to callthemselves pro choice, but they might say50200:35:29.590 --> 00:35:32.510something to the effect of, yeah, I'm pro alive, but I would50300:35:32.550 --> 00:35:37.420never do what you guys do rightto an abortion clinic. Yes, I50400:35:37.500 --> 00:35:44.579would never actively oppose abortion or whatever. It's like Jesus said, either you're50500:35:44.619 --> 00:35:45.940for me are you against me.It's like you need to make a decision50600:35:46.340 --> 00:35:49.619now. Don't mean by that thatyou're not a Christian if you don't come50700:35:49.619 --> 00:35:51.730out to an abortion clinic anything likethat. It's not what I mean to50800:35:51.769 --> 00:35:54.210say. But what I do meanto say is that if there is something50900:35:54.329 --> 00:36:00.769that is a moral evil that existsin your society, to not be actively51000:36:00.809 --> 00:36:06.880involved in some way in opposing thatmoral evil is, in one sense a51100:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.760denial of what God has called usto do. He has called us to51200:36:12.000 --> 00:36:17.710actively oppose evil. or It's atestit approval of that e could and it's51300:36:17.989 --> 00:36:22.190by our silence, we are whatwe are saying. Someone. What's the51400:36:22.389 --> 00:36:25.150is it Edmond Burke quote? Thatall it takes for evil to triumphans for51500:36:25.230 --> 00:36:30.349good men to do nothing. AndYeah, you know apathy, apathy actually51600:36:30.389 --> 00:36:34.539speaks, a speaks volumes. Ifthat's what you what you fail to do,51700:36:34.659 --> 00:36:37.179when you refuse to do is amatter of fact. I believe we51800:36:37.300 --> 00:36:40.260stand before God, that you willgive an account for not just the stuff51900:36:40.300 --> 00:36:44.219that we actively did, that waswrong, yeah, but for the stuff52000:36:44.219 --> 00:36:47.050that we passively refused and failed todo. Why did you not? Jesus52100:36:47.090 --> 00:36:51.369says that. Why, where wereyou when I was in prison? Where52200:36:51.409 --> 00:36:53.130were you when I was hungry?Where were you when I was thirsty?52300:36:53.289 --> 00:36:57.449Well, we should have been there. We should be there in those babies52400:36:57.530 --> 00:37:00.599are there in prison, yeah,and those MOMS are. Yeah, there,52500:37:00.760 --> 00:37:04.079they're third prison. Of the MOMSare in the prison. Of See.52600:37:04.119 --> 00:37:07.159I mean it speaks of you knowthat passage Matthew Twenty five. It52700:37:07.280 --> 00:37:13.760speaks of sort of this this rejection, in these these Jesus identifies with those52800:37:13.800 --> 00:37:15.789who are rejected by society, thosewho are sick, those are in prison,52900:37:15.869 --> 00:37:20.150those who kind of the untouchable sortof people yeah, it's sort of53000:37:20.150 --> 00:37:24.869the measure of the genuineness of ourChristianity is what we do with those real53100:37:24.909 --> 00:37:28.630the least of these, how weact what those were the least of these.53200:37:28.989 --> 00:37:31.659It's like, if your Christianity isreal, then it will be on53300:37:31.900 --> 00:37:36.980display and how you act toward thosewho are the least of these. M53400:37:37.820 --> 00:37:44.929and in our society, I can'tsee a group of people more identified with53500:37:45.050 --> 00:37:47.050Jesus and that passage as far asthe least of these, where he identifies53600:37:47.130 --> 00:37:52.610himself with them, then the unborn. That's right, they are the least53700:37:52.690 --> 00:37:57.010of the least of these. Yeah, they're the smallest, most vulnerable and53800:37:57.130 --> 00:38:01.440most endangered group of human beings rightnow. Yeah, on earth and in53900:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.800a place that was designed perfectly byGod to be a place of protection and54000:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.039instead is one of the most dangerousplaces on earth, which is the human54100:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.949womb. Yeah, so for usto be silent on that, I think54200:38:15.070 --> 00:38:21.989is is is is not being whoGod has has called us to. Yeah.54300:38:22.030 --> 00:38:24.550Absolutely. So, just to wrapup here, you know, I54400:38:24.710 --> 00:38:29.539think, man, I think wethink we've solved this, this dilemma.54500:38:29.579 --> 00:38:31.699I think we've answered this question.I've got one more Kay. When you54600:38:31.780 --> 00:38:35.260are you on more thing, onemore thing for you to talk about,54700:38:35.260 --> 00:38:38.900because I do hear it a lot. Okay, that well, but those54800:38:39.099 --> 00:38:43.809babies he's are the Christian speaking,those babies are going to go to heaven54900:38:44.250 --> 00:38:49.769anyway. And look at what you'redoing to those women. We should be55000:38:49.929 --> 00:38:55.199winning them over with just, youknow, kindness, love, affirmation,55100:38:55.280 --> 00:39:00.840yeah, encouragement. Those babies areokay, the babies are going to be55200:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.159with Jesus. Yeah, so respondto that. Yeah, I mean easy55300:39:05.199 --> 00:39:09.070kind of you know, quick responsewould be. You know, that kid55400:39:09.150 --> 00:39:14.829over there's drowning in us in aswimming pool, and you know that kids55500:39:14.869 --> 00:39:16.989three years years old and they're goingto go to heaven anyway. MMM.55600:39:17.750 --> 00:39:22.789So really don't want to, youknow, involve myself and breaking the law55700:39:22.869 --> 00:39:25.059and trispassing on these people's property.You know, after all, they might55800:39:25.099 --> 00:39:30.619not like me going on there,you know, and their backlong to rescue55900:39:30.659 --> 00:39:34.059that kid. You know, it'sabsurdity, but it's sort of like again,56000:39:34.099 --> 00:39:37.179it's sort of misses the point.Like the point is not just that56100:39:37.300 --> 00:39:42.650women are making a bad decision.It's not just that they're making a bad56200:39:42.730 --> 00:39:47.530medical decision. They're killing another person, right and it's a it's a violent56300:39:47.530 --> 00:39:51.730act. You know, we're talkingabout another person that suffers. Just because56400:39:51.849 --> 00:39:57.079that person in their suffering, ultimatelywill end and they'll go to heaven doesn't56500:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.360mean it's it's okay for us toturn a blind eye to their suffering,56600:40:00.519 --> 00:40:05.599like we have to meet people intheir suffering. You know, we could56700:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.389say that for our brothers and sistersaround the world who are suffering persecution who,56800:40:08.389 --> 00:40:12.429you know, in some Islamic countriesand some, you know, Communist56900:40:12.469 --> 00:40:15.789countries and other countries, are beingpersecuted in their heads are being chopped off57000:40:15.869 --> 00:40:19.150and there being tortured. They goingto get to heaven, you know,57100:40:19.190 --> 00:40:21.820they're going to get to heaven anyway. So really, I mean, why57200:40:21.820 --> 00:40:23.539do we need to send money?Why do we need to to send aid57300:40:23.659 --> 00:40:29.139and that sort of thing? It'ssort of misses the point, right yeah,57400:40:29.260 --> 00:40:31.780it's almost an excuse for inaction.It is. It's an excuse for57500:40:32.099 --> 00:40:36.849for apathy on we have of Christiansnow, of course, you know,57600:40:36.889 --> 00:40:38.889I don't mean to say and I'msure you don't mean to say that,57700:40:39.329 --> 00:40:45.489you know, abortion clinic ministry orPro Life Ministry or Pro Life Activism is57800:40:45.769 --> 00:40:49.210is the only ministry that we're calledto. Certainly there are people who are57900:40:49.210 --> 00:40:52.960going over overseas and sharing the Gospel. There are people who are involved actively58000:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.840and evangelism that are not going toabortion clinics. Are Pastors that are doing58100:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.559what they can in the pulpit topastor there the congregation, that kind of58200:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.829stuff them. Not Everybody can cando what we do, and I don't58300:41:04.829 --> 00:41:08.230expect for everyone to do what wedo, but everyone can and everyone should58400:41:08.230 --> 00:41:15.829speak out against the immorality that abortionis. If we claim to be Christians58500:41:15.150 --> 00:41:19.860and if we claim to have afoundation of our beliefs from God's word.58600:41:20.380 --> 00:41:24.659The God's Word is very clear thatto take an innocent life is wrong and58700:41:24.820 --> 00:41:30.340abortion is taking an innocent life andas a society, for for us as58800:41:30.340 --> 00:41:35.530a society to put our stamp ofapproval on that will incur the judgment of58900:41:35.570 --> 00:41:37.130God on us as a society.And so those who are supposed to be59000:41:37.170 --> 00:41:43.650salt and light in society are supposedto, as much as we can,59100:41:43.809 --> 00:41:46.159defer the judgment of God from ournation and seek the good of our nation59200:41:46.320 --> 00:41:52.599by actively being involved in uprooting evil. And abortion is one of the first59300:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.880evils in our society, I believe. Yeah, absolutely so. So I59400:41:58.119 --> 00:42:02.429think again that we've answered this questionthat you cannot be Christian and pro choice59500:42:02.429 --> 00:42:06.429at the same time. Yeah,not, unless you're twisting scripture. Yeah,59600:42:06.949 --> 00:42:09.389or we have a grave misunderstanding ofyeah. Now, I think at59700:42:09.429 --> 00:42:13.510some point this is this is fora different podcast. Maybe this is sort59800:42:13.550 --> 00:42:15.820of like just a motivation for peoplewho are watching, the people who are59900:42:15.860 --> 00:42:20.539listening, to keep listening. Wehope that they will. But I'd like60000:42:20.659 --> 00:42:22.260to deal with you know, becauseone of the arguments that I've had from60100:42:22.300 --> 00:42:29.780from pro choice people is that theBible has within its pages a God putting60200:42:29.820 --> 00:42:32.369a stamp of approval on abortion.And the numbers passage. Yes, yeah,60300:42:32.530 --> 00:42:36.530it believe it's numbers Chapter Eight,yeah, where it's almost like a60400:42:36.610 --> 00:42:38.929God prescribed abortion. You know,I want us to talk about that.60500:42:39.130 --> 00:42:43.530Yeah, at some point. Ithink it's not not what I have enough60600:42:43.570 --> 00:42:45.639time to really talk about that onthis particular podcast. Will deal with that60700:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.639and I actually had reached out to, you know, to Dr Michael Brown,60800:42:50.679 --> 00:42:52.719who's a Hebrew scholar, and justask him about this passage. Now,60900:42:53.239 --> 00:42:59.070depending on what version you read,it reads differently. But but we'll61000:42:59.070 --> 00:43:01.469talk about that? Okay, future. Yeah, that's some Christians might struggle61100:43:01.510 --> 00:43:05.670with that and be like, whatabout this passage? And there's a there's61200:43:05.670 --> 00:43:09.469another passage in exodus that sort ofcan, depending on the way it's translated,61300:43:10.309 --> 00:43:15.780can maybe put a stamp of approvalon hurting an unborn child and taking61400:43:15.780 --> 00:43:19.300an unborn child's life. So we'lltalk about that. But as far as61500:43:19.300 --> 00:43:23.980this is concerned, you know,it's really impossible to be a Christian and61600:43:24.179 --> 00:43:28.409hold to a pro choice stands andI think again, you can be ignorant61700:43:28.489 --> 00:43:32.329of all the facts and really beignorant and maybe just coming into the faith61800:43:32.409 --> 00:43:37.210or whatever and not fully informed ofthis stuff. And certainly, you know,61900:43:37.289 --> 00:43:42.159it's our place to do things likethis and answer that question as best62000:43:42.199 --> 00:43:45.159we can from the word of God, and then we have opportunities talk to62100:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.679people one on one to just showthem what God's word says about the unborn.62200:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.239Aren't about our our need to protectthem. Yeah, so we appreciate62300:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.110all those who are watching and listening. Hope that you're blessed by this.62400:43:57.230 --> 00:44:00.309You can go to our website atCharlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org.62500:44:00.389 --> 00:44:05.030Can get connected with cities for lifehere in Charlotte. Also have a website62600:44:05.110 --> 00:44:07.869that's set up for people nationally whowant to get involved in sidewalk counseling in62700:44:07.909 --> 00:44:15.340their city, called sidewalks for lifecom. Sidewalks the number for lifecom, and62800:44:15.980 --> 00:44:19.699we're also on facebook. Sidewalks forlife is on facebook and cities for life62900:44:19.780 --> 00:44:23.449is on facebook and we hope thatyou're blessed by this podcast and you can63000:44:23.489 --> 00:44:28.250certainly reach out to us through emailor again through facebook. But we appreciate63100:44:28.329 --> 00:44:40.239all those who listen and who watch. God bless for love. Give me63200:44:42.000 --> 00:44:53.230our loft for gratitude. I knowit will cost me my life. Nothing's63300:44:53.389 --> 00:44:57.030too precious. And some met you