Sept. 24, 2020
Abortion and Sex Trafficking - Interview with Justice Ministries Founder Mark Blackwell
Sex trafficking, like abortion, is a full-frontal attack on the value of human life. It’s important to see how these two evils collide and how we as Christians can address both issues. Join Vicky and Daniel as they interview Justice Ministries...
Sex trafficking, like abortion, is a full-frontal attack on the value of human life. It’s important to see how these two evils collide and how we as Christians can address both issues. Join Vicky and Daniel as they interview Justice Ministries founder, Mark Blackwell, to talk about this vital topic.
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.480 And I am yours, I am yours, I am yours, s and 2 00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:10.029 me, Lord. I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. In 3 00:00:10.070 --> 00:00:14.470 this episode we're going to talk with Mark Blackwell from justice ministries about how abortion 4 00:00:14.589 --> 00:00:17.589 and sex trafficking go hand in hand and how we can help women in those 5 00:00:17.629 --> 00:00:28.300 situations. Stay tuned. Send Me Lord. I felt show passish touch your 6 00:00:28.820 --> 00:00:36.770 home use. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcasts. Appreciate you guys 7 00:00:36.890 --> 00:00:39.729 listening. As we promised a couple of weeks ago, we're going to do 8 00:00:40.369 --> 00:00:44.490 this episode and really focus on the issue of sex trafficking and abortion and how 9 00:00:44.530 --> 00:00:47.929 those issues collide, and we have a special guest here with us, Mark 10 00:00:47.969 --> 00:00:52.039 Black well with justice ministries. He's going to introduce himself and just a minute. 11 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:54.719 But, Vicky, this was a something we just kind of as we 12 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:58.759 were talking about the domestic violence when we did that episode a couple of weeks 13 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:00.840 ago. This is another one of those issues that we really felt like people 14 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:04.989 need to be informed about how these issues, how domestic abused, domestic violence 15 00:01:04.989 --> 00:01:11.390 and abortion kind of collide, and then how sex trafficking collides with the issueable 16 00:01:11.390 --> 00:01:15.269 because we've seen it out there where we have had strong suspicions that there has 17 00:01:15.349 --> 00:01:21.540 been sex trafficked women being brought and we never really know quite what to do 18 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:25.739 and we have done things like call the national hotline, but without a whole 19 00:01:25.739 --> 00:01:29.620 lot of success. So we thought it was time to call in an x 20 00:01:29.859 --> 00:01:33.129 heard and really find out what we can do, what to look for and 21 00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:37.609 how we should respond as sidewalk counselors. Yeah, so, guys, those 22 00:01:37.609 --> 00:01:40.170 who are out in front of abortion centers and you trying to reach out and 23 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:44.650 bring help and hope to the women going in, you'll see some of these 24 00:01:44.689 --> 00:01:48.239 situations. Maybe some of the stuff that that mark says look out for you'll 25 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:51.040 recognize all. I've seen that in the past and I just didn't know. 26 00:01:51.760 --> 00:01:53.879 And so this is just a help equip you guys, in form you guys, 27 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.200 and so mark, just just go ahead and introduce yourself. Man. 28 00:01:57.280 --> 00:02:00.200 What's your title? What's the ministry all about? And then we'll get into 29 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.030 some of the some of the INS and out. Sure thing we'll first off, 30 00:02:04.150 --> 00:02:06.430 just thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here and 31 00:02:06.510 --> 00:02:09.789 it's great to have discussion with you all and I feel this is a very 32 00:02:09.830 --> 00:02:13.710 similar fight, a matter of fact, I often say that, you know 33 00:02:13.909 --> 00:02:17.139 us being a counter sex trafficking agency, that it's really just an extension of 34 00:02:17.219 --> 00:02:21.659 the pro life movement. Yes, that's what we're about and you know, 35 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:24.580 we're often times, you know, fighting for these individuals that are at high 36 00:02:24.580 --> 00:02:29.780 risk of death themselves with what they're trapped in. And so I just appreciate 37 00:02:29.819 --> 00:02:32.889 all that you do so much. I we've partnered with you personally and on 38 00:02:34.289 --> 00:02:38.370 many efforts and and just again happy to be here and thanks for having me. 39 00:02:38.409 --> 00:02:40.530 Yeah, but yeah, so I'm mark black well, I'm the president 40 00:02:40.569 --> 00:02:45.879 and founder of justice ministries and we've been around for a little over ten years. 41 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.280 For me, basically, the issue of sex trafficking came on my radar 42 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.560 my last semester in college. I was at a conference in Atlanta, Georgia, 43 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:57.000 many of you know, called The Passion Conference. Okay, yeah, 44 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.150 and that's where I learned about the issue of sex trafficking, world blight and 45 00:03:00.229 --> 00:03:02.349 what was going on and and God just broke my heart for the issue and 46 00:03:02.389 --> 00:03:07.030 I felt God was saying to serve this population of people. I didn't know 47 00:03:07.069 --> 00:03:08.590 what that would look like. I didn't know that would mean starting an agency 48 00:03:08.629 --> 00:03:13.659 or anything like that. But I just felt this call to serve this population. 49 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:15.900 Yeah, and after doing kind of my homework and research of what was 50 00:03:15.939 --> 00:03:21.099 going on overseas, but also stateside, and I found that wow, there's, 51 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:24.699 you know, young women and even teenage girls being raped and sold for 52 00:03:24.819 --> 00:03:29.569 profit on the streets of Charlotte. You know, as a man, as 53 00:03:29.569 --> 00:03:30.969 a Christian, even as a Charlotte, and you know, I couldn't sit 54 00:03:31.009 --> 00:03:36.370 on that information and I felt this called start my own backyard. Yeah, 55 00:03:36.969 --> 00:03:39.050 and so, yeah, so God just kind of prompted us in that we 56 00:03:39.169 --> 00:03:43.520 were the first kind of trafficking agency in the Charlotte region and one of the 57 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:46.199 only few in the state at the time. You know, ten years ago 58 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:51.400 the term human trafficking was starting to get some amentium people were labeling what was 59 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:53.439 going on in this modern day slavery and starting to get a sense of what 60 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:57.189 was happening, but it was still very, very new, you know. 61 00:03:57.750 --> 00:04:00.150 So there was a lot of kind of pioneering effort to be done here. 62 00:04:01.110 --> 00:04:04.949 But again, after seeing the need, God just called us to serve this 63 00:04:05.110 --> 00:04:10.020 group. And you know, our models basically based off the story of the 64 00:04:10.060 --> 00:04:13.180 Good Samaritan. Yeah, there's no secret salce to what we do. We're 65 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:16.139 just meeting people and their time of need and their tongue of vulnerability and as 66 00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:19.060 the you know, as the church, you know, try trying to help 67 00:04:19.100 --> 00:04:23.660 meet those needs. whichers are very basic. You know that. It's safe 68 00:04:24.220 --> 00:04:27.730 shelter, it's transportation them out of the ditch and getting them to an end. 69 00:04:27.769 --> 00:04:31.889 Absolutely and obviously the complexities, you know, with the particular subject of 70 00:04:31.970 --> 00:04:34.089 sex trafficking. By the end of the day, these are just people that 71 00:04:34.209 --> 00:04:39.040 need help, but like all of us, so we try to provide whatever 72 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:46.240 resources we can and essentially help them on their journey to independence and and that's 73 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.519 that's really the name of the game. Yeah, so let me ask so 74 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:53.829 just I'm sure guys, you, you who are listening, you've heard the 75 00:04:53.910 --> 00:04:58.949 term sex trafficking and and maybe even lately it seems like there's been an uptick 76 00:04:58.990 --> 00:05:04.149 in this people's attention towards sex trafficking and and there's maybe different terms or in 77 00:05:04.269 --> 00:05:08.420 things that are associated with that, but just define our term, root with 78 00:05:08.579 --> 00:05:11.180 sex traffick, what it was that mean? You talked about modern day slave 79 00:05:11.259 --> 00:05:14.740 grades. Just que people into what exactly we're talking about. So so, 80 00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:16.779 on a bigger scale. There's there's human trafficking. I mean that that's how 81 00:05:16.819 --> 00:05:20.610 you would define this crime. Yeah, and that involves Labor trafficking, that 82 00:05:20.730 --> 00:05:26.730 involves sex trafficking. That can involve things like organ harvesting. Yeah, child 83 00:05:26.889 --> 00:05:30.250 soldiers, you know, any really any with with the Labor side, all 84 00:05:30.290 --> 00:05:34.920 kinds of force labor, from a gray and warehousing to live in, maids 85 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.680 and, you know, housekeepers and that kind of thing. Right, and 86 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:43.240 sometimes those intersect into sex trafficking as well. Just because someone's being labor traffick 87 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.399 they may be exploited sexually as well. Yeah, so there's it's not a 88 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:48.079 super clean, you know thing to say, Oh, that's definitely this case 89 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.470 or definitely that case. But where we target most of our effort is in 90 00:05:51.550 --> 00:05:55.470 the topic of sex trafficking. Yeah, and and again based here in the 91 00:05:55.509 --> 00:06:00.189 US. With that said, we've served we serve predominantly a adult females, 92 00:06:00.310 --> 00:06:03.149 yeah, but we have served minors and girls, also boys, some men 93 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:08.300 and those that identify with the Lgbtq community, just all the above. And 94 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:11.819 we've also taken on some labor trafficking cases as well when they've come across our 95 00:06:11.899 --> 00:06:16.139 desk. Yeah, but our main focus is sexual exploitation and sex trafficking is 96 00:06:16.220 --> 00:06:18.970 where we kind of spend most of our time. Out The way you define 97 00:06:19.209 --> 00:06:24.689 sex trafficking in the US by law, it's where there's a basically a commercial 98 00:06:24.689 --> 00:06:30.009 sex act done by force, fraud or Corsion, or in which the individual 99 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:32.079 is under eighteen years old. Yeah. So. So, with that said, 100 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:35.920 do you hear about a sixteen year old prostitute? Legally not possible, 101 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:42.000 right. Yeah, a child doesn't have the right to consent into this lifestyle. 102 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:45.560 Right. So if they're under eighteen, it's automatic trafficking. Yeah, 103 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:47.589 and if they're over eighteen, if they're an adult, then you you have 104 00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:51.910 to prove force, frauder corsion happened that push them into this commercial sex industry, 105 00:06:53.189 --> 00:06:57.110 which can be what we see is traditional prostitution. It can be exotic 106 00:06:57.149 --> 00:07:00.430 dancing, it can be camming, it can be pornography, it can be 107 00:07:00.910 --> 00:07:03.339 even in like the sugar daddy sugar baby context. There is a range. 108 00:07:03.740 --> 00:07:08.019 Most of what we're doing with is what we would think of is force prostitution. 109 00:07:08.180 --> 00:07:11.540 Yeah, yeah, okay, and I've heard and tell me if I'm 110 00:07:11.540 --> 00:07:14.420 wrong about this, but we're right now we're in Charlotte, North Carolina. 111 00:07:14.740 --> 00:07:17.410 Now people are listening from all over the United States and people listen from all 112 00:07:17.490 --> 00:07:23.449 over the world to this podcast. Sure, but just talking about Charlotte and 113 00:07:23.529 --> 00:07:27.889 just the context here. What are this is ex I've heard it's Charlotte's like 114 00:07:27.889 --> 00:07:30.920 number for the nation for sex chaffing. Is that correct or is that in 115 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.360 Korect? The numbers are interesting. What do we get our numbers and stats? 116 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:36.839 Will we get it from data and and data is a little bit all 117 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:41.319 over the place with this topic of sex trafficking in the US. So I 118 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.829 leaned towards more conservative. But I'll put it this way. North Carolina, 119 00:07:46.310 --> 00:07:48.430 by the stats through the National Resource Center, is a top ten state. 120 00:07:48.509 --> 00:07:51.910 Yeah, and Charlotte is the number one location in North Carolina. Yeah, 121 00:07:53.230 --> 00:07:56.750 so you could argue then that Charlotte is a top ten city. Yeah, 122 00:07:57.069 --> 00:08:00.620 in the US that you can make that, that argument. It is there's 123 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:03.779 something about Charlotte in particular that would cause it to be or can you identify 124 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:07.980 what? What makes something a top city? Absolutely, you know. I 125 00:08:07.060 --> 00:08:11.970 mean obviously the the east coast and generals more densely populated and you have between 126 00:08:13.050 --> 00:08:16.009 Miami and New York, Charlotte's kind of a midway point. Yeah, we're 127 00:08:16.009 --> 00:08:20.050 also a midway point between Atlanta and DC. Yeah, we have a major 128 00:08:20.129 --> 00:08:24.129 international airport and we're not far from I forty. We're right here at eighty 129 00:08:24.170 --> 00:08:26.089 five or right here at I seventy seven, and you can get anywhere in 130 00:08:26.089 --> 00:08:30.240 the country from Charlotte pretty quickly. Yeah, we host a lot of major 131 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.000 events. Within the past decade we've hosted both the RNC and the DNC. 132 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.000 We have all the major sports teams, we have NASCAR, we have we 133 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.070 host all kind of large events and anytime there's large populations of people being brought 134 00:08:41.110 --> 00:08:45.149 to a community, traffickers see that as potential business. Yeah, so it's 135 00:08:45.190 --> 00:08:46.629 not. It's not that there's something wrong with Charlotte in general that like, 136 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:50.509 Oh, Charlotte is just has this high risk. It's that, like any 137 00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:54.710 large metropolitan area, we're hosting large events and we're easy to travel to and 138 00:08:54.860 --> 00:08:58.620 exit from and when you have that, that's just that sets up the ingredients 139 00:08:58.899 --> 00:09:03.539 to be a high risk location for sex trafficking. You know, Charlotte is 140 00:09:03.580 --> 00:09:09.220 also one of the abortion capitals or a southeast particularly where we minister at latrobe. 141 00:09:09.379 --> 00:09:13.970 Sure is that is there a link there between so many people coming really 142 00:09:15.009 --> 00:09:18.169 from all over the southeast for abortions here in Charlotte and the incidence of sex 143 00:09:18.289 --> 00:09:22.929 trafficking? Yeah, I think so. I mean I think those those two 144 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:26.639 issues go hand in hand. You know, sex is something that its main 145 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.440 function is to produce children. You know, I feel like in our culture 146 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.080 it's sad that I think we almost need to find that from it is like 147 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.320 people have sexual relations to procreate, like that is the deal. But it's 148 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.990 become so perverted and twisted and brought into other categories and the idea of having 149 00:09:43.269 --> 00:09:46.350 one partner for your life is just this foreign concept, like we were so 150 00:09:46.429 --> 00:09:50.870 far away from like the biblical direction on how to raise a family and how 151 00:09:50.909 --> 00:09:54.500 to do this. So yeah, absolutely. You know, if someone is 152 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:58.500 in sex trafficking and they're being a sexually exploited multiple times a day, even 153 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:01.860 if they're on pills or using any kind of protection, still the chance of 154 00:10:01.940 --> 00:10:07.409 pregnancy is high and if they're seen as a product that needs to produce, 155 00:10:09.450 --> 00:10:13.169 the trafficker doesn't want to take nine months off, so he's going to most 156 00:10:13.210 --> 00:10:16.809 likely have her terminate that child. There's another version of this that we've seen. 157 00:10:16.889 --> 00:10:20.970 That's even in kind of the if you can have a further underbelly to 158 00:10:20.169 --> 00:10:24.960 to sex trafficking, where where that's not happening, sometimes the child is brought 159 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.000 to term and used as either leverage for the victim or that child then sold 160 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.559 into some type of human trafficking as well. So it mean it's a terrible, 161 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.029 terrible situation, but certainly, yeah, that the two do go hand 162 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:41.830 in hand. Yes, so, no, sounds abortion is helping the sex 163 00:10:41.950 --> 00:10:46.350 trafficker to cover over, Oh yeah, cover his his crimes. Absolutely. 164 00:10:46.389 --> 00:10:50.059 Yeah, yeah, that's that is correct. Yeah, I mean we're dealing 165 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:56.100 with a society, like you said, sex is just this recreational thing and 166 00:10:56.179 --> 00:10:58.940 obviously we know that God created sex as an enjoyable thing. Sure, right, 167 00:11:00.100 --> 00:11:01.580 absolutely, yeah. But then we take that, as you said, 168 00:11:01.659 --> 00:11:07.129 and pervert that and make that that it's only about enjoyment, not about procreation. 169 00:11:07.370 --> 00:11:11.090 And you've got it's crazy. We're talking about an industry. Yes, 170 00:11:11.370 --> 00:11:13.330 I mean from our perspective it's crazy. We're talking about an industry, the 171 00:11:13.409 --> 00:11:18.639 abortion industry, that makes, you know, million billions of dollars every year 172 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.440 off of this thing called abortion. But I mean you're dealing with an industry, 173 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.639 the sex trafficking industry, multibillion dollar. Yeah, that's one of the 174 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.000 places when to get at this is a multi billion dollar industry. If the 175 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.029 level of money that is involved with this. I mean even ten years ago 176 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:37.029 when we started, I remember one of the the phrases people would use would 177 00:11:37.029 --> 00:11:41.629 say, if Nike, Google, starbucks and Walmart can bind their profits set 178 00:11:41.710 --> 00:11:46.230 global sex trafficking still bringing in more money. Yeah, and those companies combined. 179 00:11:46.309 --> 00:11:50.820 And so so you're dealing with a megacrime industry. Yeah, and the 180 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:52.500 unfortunately, when you have big money, it greases a lot of wheels, 181 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:56.460 even all the way throughout government and and yeah, and the systems that should 182 00:11:56.460 --> 00:12:01.850 be stopping that and keeping that from happening. Well, if you have high 183 00:12:01.889 --> 00:12:05.529 places of power and limited morals and there's money floating around, that is a 184 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.610 bad combination. Yeah, it is a bad combination. You unleash, just 185 00:12:09.009 --> 00:12:13.730 open the floodgates for all kinds of evil. Absolutely. I know on social 186 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:20.039 media and other rounds there's a lot of this talk about child trafficking and just 187 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.120 it seems like it's on an uptick. Is that? Is that the case 188 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.279 that there is an uptick in sect traffing. You're just more people are talking 189 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:31.429 about it. I don't know, a couple of stings. The the awareness 190 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:35.429 has increased. Okay, child trafficking has been going on since well before we 191 00:12:35.549 --> 00:12:39.309 started and well beyond that. I mean, yeah, it's been going on 192 00:12:39.509 --> 00:12:43.860 for very, very long time. It is gaining traction and child trafficking specifically 193 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:50.460 is getting more attention. There's some restructuring going on the federal law enforcement levels 194 00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:54.139 that I think is is having a ripple effect that there is being beneficial. 195 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:58.169 Okay, free up more manpower to to go after this subject. In general. 196 00:12:58.250 --> 00:13:01.809 Law enforcement agencies are tax then and spread then. Right. Yeah, 197 00:13:03.210 --> 00:13:07.090 there is some reprioritizing that's been going on that I think is going alongside with 198 00:13:07.210 --> 00:13:11.929 with some of the increase that we're seeing. And you know, even with 199 00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:16.840 the trump administration, of just recently they passed thirty five million dollars to go 200 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:20.240 into actual victim resources. There's been a lot of money raced in the name 201 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.799 of human trafficking, but it would shock you how little of that actually ends 202 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.029 up being direct services or bed space. Yeah, for survive of it. 203 00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:31.149 So the money that just came through, I mean we didn't see any of 204 00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:33.990 it. There was only one agency in North Carolina and one in South Carolina 205 00:13:33.029 --> 00:13:35.389 that received, you know, that funding, which is which is great. 206 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:39.710 I mean it's excellent, sure, and that will go fast, unfortunately. 207 00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:43.659 Yeah, but I was still just encouraged to see that momentum that, hey, 208 00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:46.139 even at the federal level, some some money is being loosened up to 209 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:52.019 specifically target getting resources for for individuals that have been caught up in human traffion, 210 00:13:52.059 --> 00:13:54.779 because it should be a top priority. I mean the fact that it's 211 00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:56.490 going on. We were talking before the podcast, you know. I mean 212 00:13:56.889 --> 00:14:01.769 slavery was abolished a long time ago in our country. This is a form 213 00:14:01.809 --> 00:14:05.009 of modern day slavery and we should be coming at it really hard and really 214 00:14:05.049 --> 00:14:09.519 swift. But for too long we've we've basically just been kind of dancing around 215 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:13.720 the issue and sometimes I feel that we're more concerned about the risk of acting 216 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.080 versus the risk of not acting. Yeah, and it really that's been something 217 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.519 that's bug me for a long time. But it's a true pandemic. I 218 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.070 mean we have a serious problem going on right now. Yeah, and so 219 00:14:24.190 --> 00:14:28.750 we know it's there, we know it's happening and we know that it's certainly 220 00:14:28.029 --> 00:14:31.470 these women are being brought to the abortion center. We know that and in 221 00:14:31.549 --> 00:14:37.549 fact we have seen what we have suspected sometimes. But maybe could you speak 222 00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:41.460 a little bit about what to look for, because I know you probably would 223 00:14:41.539 --> 00:14:46.379 notice things that we might not. Yeah, I mean I can tell you 224 00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:48.460 know, at least you guys are. You are pretty sharp. So I 225 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:50.580 yeah, I'd probably pick up a most of it. But and if you 226 00:14:50.659 --> 00:14:54.090 want to check it out, the National Resource Center, also called Pilarish Project, 227 00:14:54.289 --> 00:14:58.889 on their website they do have a list of recognizing the signs. If 228 00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:03.129 you can probably some fifty, fifty things to look for. You will put 229 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:05.129 a link for that actually in the description of this podcast. Sure, those 230 00:15:05.169 --> 00:15:07.879 who are listening can can go to that website, but some of the big 231 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:13.240 ones would be, you know, and again it's you know, most women 232 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.960 that are being brought to an abortion clinic. I mean they there's a lot 233 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.080 of shame, there's a lot of emotion going on, so that could be 234 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.710 confused to look like something that it's not necessarily. Yeah, so I would 235 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:28.230 then zoom out a little bit and say, okay, anytime there's maybe a 236 00:15:28.309 --> 00:15:31.789 male bringing a female in that they don't look like they'd be in a typical 237 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:35.379 relationship. You know, that should be somewhat of red flag. Like a 238 00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:41.220 much older man with a much younger exact person might be one example exactly. 239 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:43.860 You can kind of in your own you know, assessment going on that yeah, 240 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.620 it looks that's got right. And then, certainly, as we discussed, 241 00:15:46.700 --> 00:15:50.970 you know, if if there was multiple women, yeah, that one 242 00:15:52.049 --> 00:15:54.090 guy or one individual was bringing in and we could be a woman to I 243 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:58.690 mean there are female traffickers. It could be a woman bringing three other women 244 00:15:58.809 --> 00:16:02.450 in and that that's just bizarre. I mean it's it'd be a crazy scene. 245 00:16:03.409 --> 00:16:07.080 The individual, the victim, oftentimes doesn't really have control over their own 246 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.080 documentation, over their own money. Sometimes they're a little fuzzy on where they're 247 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:15.600 at and you know where they're going. And if sometimes you have opportunity to 248 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.350 kind of engage in a conversation level, often times you don't, but if 249 00:16:18.389 --> 00:16:22.990 there is that opportunity, you can pick up on that really quickly. Just 250 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:26.429 the victim often times won't have a lot of context that you'd have with a 251 00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:30.470 regular Orson you're meeting on the street. Let me ask you, because it 252 00:16:30.509 --> 00:16:33.179 occurred to me as you were speaking because we're in in the instant. I 253 00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:36.820 was telling you earlier on that that we did see before we started the podcast, 254 00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:38.500 where we did see a man bring for victims, well, what we 255 00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:42.659 thought were for victims. They it was the middle of summer and they were 256 00:16:42.659 --> 00:16:47.970 all wearing long sleeves and we found that odd and we wondered. We were 257 00:16:48.049 --> 00:16:52.730 wondering where they being, where they drugged, where they using drugs? Is 258 00:16:52.769 --> 00:16:56.850 that a form of control in in sex trafficking, and so would even something 259 00:16:56.889 --> 00:17:00.330 like that, long sleeves in the middle of a hot North Carolina summer? 260 00:17:00.370 --> 00:17:03.119 Yeah, that's that's good observation. Yeah, absolutely, drug use is definitely 261 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:07.720 common within sex trafficking. At that's not every case. I've been actually shocked 262 00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:12.039 by how many cases that there wasn't drug use involved. Oftentimes, depending on 263 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:17.390 this type of trafficker, it can be utilized or not, and then sometimes 264 00:17:17.430 --> 00:17:21.269 it's something they use count towards the end, if you will, to keep 265 00:17:21.349 --> 00:17:25.109 someone compliant. But but yeah, know that the long sleeves could have been 266 00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:27.390 used to cover that. There also could have been significant tattoos or branding that 267 00:17:27.470 --> 00:17:33.059 have been easily identifiable and then that could be used to cover that as well. 268 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:37.539 But yeah, I the big things to look out for with potential victim 269 00:17:37.740 --> 00:17:41.140 is kind of their demeanor, how they're carrying themselves. Again, walking into 270 00:17:41.140 --> 00:17:45.809 abortion clinic gets tough because they're probably already feeling all kind of emotion. But 271 00:17:45.049 --> 00:17:48.410 that on the street. That's what we would look for is is the way 272 00:17:48.410 --> 00:17:51.329 they're carrying themselves, that they won't make eye contact, if they won't speak 273 00:17:51.329 --> 00:17:55.250 on their own behalf and someone speaks for them, things of that nature, 274 00:17:55.329 --> 00:17:57.720 and then not having a lot of context on you know, where they're from 275 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.480 or what they do or how they get here, how long they stay in 276 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.119 you know, things the best of US could answer easily. Right, if 277 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:07.400 you're being controlled by another person, you may not have quick answers or you're 278 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.000 giving scripted answers. Right. Sometimes we're just watching them and we're not going 279 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:12.950 to have an interaction. But are there things that we could be watching coming 280 00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:18.150 from the trafficer? That his interaction. I'm assuming to say him. I 281 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:22.069 know certimes it might be a woman, but I'll say him just to make 282 00:18:22.069 --> 00:18:25.230 it easy. So his interactions with the women. Are there things that are 283 00:18:25.309 --> 00:18:29.819 kind of tipoffs? Yeah, I mean just that that presence of control. 284 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.140 I mean is the big one. I mean, traffickers will confuse you, 285 00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:36.740 that they will. I mean they're they're they're manipulators. So I mean then 286 00:18:36.819 --> 00:18:38.579 one sense they may try to be loving on them and, you know, 287 00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:42.369 all caring and another minute really really harsh. It's all over the place, 288 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:48.210 but in general you're looking for overall theme of this person seems to be controlling 289 00:18:48.289 --> 00:18:53.410 this other person and there seems to be a real in submissive situation or a 290 00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:57.680 fear of that that person. Yeah, so I don't ask this question to 291 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:03.400 kind of get into like a cultural profiling or anything like that, but is 292 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:08.440 it the case that many of the women that are being trafficked are from out 293 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:11.430 of the country? You know, that's so they might not exactly speak English, 294 00:19:11.430 --> 00:19:15.549 they might have an accent. Is that another thing that can kind of 295 00:19:15.630 --> 00:19:18.710 be a common denominator there that we could pick up on? Let's say we 296 00:19:18.750 --> 00:19:21.430 see some of those signs that you're talking about, included with the fact that 297 00:19:21.509 --> 00:19:23.740 this person didn't even speak the language. Absolutely not. If someone didn't speak 298 00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:27.700 English that you know, and they're again still it appears that they're being controlled. 299 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:32.180 This isn't a person that's caring for them and translating and being kind. 300 00:19:32.259 --> 00:19:34.380 They're being harsh. That would be a big red flag. For our experience, 301 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:38.569 it's actually really surprised me. The high majority of our clients have actually 302 00:19:38.569 --> 00:19:42.289 been US citizens. It is blown my mind. When we got into this 303 00:19:42.329 --> 00:19:47.049 I assumed it probably be fifty, you know, fifty percent US citizen, 304 00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:51.490 fifty percent for national. The high majority has actually been US citizens. Wow, 305 00:19:51.849 --> 00:19:55.880 and and a lot of the trafficking has been. There's different kinds of 306 00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.640 pimp. There's kind of the Romeo Pimp, which is a small time operator, 307 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:03.599 basically acting like he's in a relationship. It looks similar domestic violence but 308 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:07.109 martialized, and there's the guerrilla pimp, which is heavily violent and and things 309 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:10.670 like that, and then there's kind of the CEO pimp, which may be 310 00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:14.309 the one that you know is kind of presenting a fake business and that's how 311 00:20:14.349 --> 00:20:17.589 he goes after people and he has them convinced their own track for some kind 312 00:20:17.630 --> 00:20:22.539 of career, you know. And so there's there's a variety of more styles 313 00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:25.140 of it, but what we see very often is kind of what we called 314 00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:27.740 the Romeo Pimp, and that's where, at least initially, the young lady 315 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:30.740 felt like she was in a relationship with this person. Yea. And Yeah, 316 00:20:30.859 --> 00:20:34.460 she's having to go through some some crazy things, but she's in her 317 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:37.769 mind justified that it's going to the end result, it's going to be there, 318 00:20:37.769 --> 00:20:41.210 eventually going to be together. Yea, this is just part of them 319 00:20:41.329 --> 00:20:45.130 getting the money they need to move on with life and things like that. 320 00:20:45.450 --> 00:20:48.369 I've heard that story time and time again. Yeah, where it was more 321 00:20:48.490 --> 00:20:52.480 comparable to what the young lady saw is like a relationship, until one day 322 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.720 she just kind of saw that enough is enough, or the abuse got so 323 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.880 bad she had true concern for her life that I may not survive the week. 324 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:03.349 And then another big indicator why people call the hot line is they got 325 00:21:03.470 --> 00:21:08.190 pregnant and they they maybe will endure this for themselves because after all the trauma 326 00:21:08.470 --> 00:21:11.190 and abuse, they don't. They don't always. They get kind of paralyzed, 327 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:15.029 they don't know what to do. Yeah, but then once, once 328 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:18.619 they find out they're pregnant, there that innate maternal instinct is enough to say 329 00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:22.380 I can't have this for my child. I got to get out of here. 330 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:26.500 And so we've gotten many a calls when it's not just hey, come 331 00:21:26.539 --> 00:21:29.500 get me it's hey, come get me. Also, I'm pregnant and I 332 00:21:29.619 --> 00:21:32.930 need help quick right, right. That's very common. I have so many 333 00:21:32.930 --> 00:21:36.690 questions for you. I I know of and I can't give the specifics on 334 00:21:36.769 --> 00:21:41.730 this, but I do know of definitely a sex trafficking whole thing going on, 335 00:21:41.009 --> 00:21:45.410 sure, but the woman is terrified, terrified for her life. She 336 00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:48.920 in the end decided not to pursue it. At first she was going to 337 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:53.119 pursue it, then decided not to. So I know things that are just 338 00:21:53.279 --> 00:22:00.240 so revolting and and so awful and I am not allowed for fear of harming 339 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.230 her. What do we do and how do we report what we see, 340 00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:10.190 especially if they're and maybe you could address that also, if the victim is 341 00:22:10.309 --> 00:22:12.509 not willing to report? It's a tough one. I mean that is one 342 00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:15.420 of our biggest struggles. Again, you know, to be really clear, 343 00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:18.740 we're a victim advocate organization. We're not we're not an investigative agency. You 344 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:22.460 know, we partner with law enforcement, but we leave their job to be 345 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.460 their job. In our job is our job. We collaborate with them wherever 346 00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:30.009 possible, but one of the biggest issues law enforcement runs into, and I 347 00:22:30.049 --> 00:22:34.130 think when that we run into as well is when the victim wants help but 348 00:22:34.289 --> 00:22:37.250 isn't ready for help, right, and that's a thin line, right. 349 00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:41.490 Yeah, you have some people that we could say you need help, but 350 00:22:41.529 --> 00:22:44.170 they don't think they need it and they're very tough to assist because they think 351 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:47.400 it's fine or they haven't hit rock bottom for them yet, or or whatever 352 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:51.160 it is. But the person that legitimately wants help, they would legitimately one 353 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:56.599 out. But the fear of the unknown is somehow more terrifying than the trauma 354 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.829 that they're living in right now. Yeah, and and the fear that they're 355 00:22:59.829 --> 00:23:02.589 going to be killed. Exactly. Yeah, the fear of that or the 356 00:23:02.710 --> 00:23:06.670 fear that if I try to run, then my perpetrator wilcome after me and 357 00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:08.029 then he really will kill me. Right now he's just beating me, but 358 00:23:08.069 --> 00:23:12.220 if I, if I try to escape them unsuccessful, then the fear of, 359 00:23:14.259 --> 00:23:18.779 you know, potentially being killed is a big one. And then there's 360 00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:21.259 other manipulation tactics like well, if you run away, I'll go after you, 361 00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:22.619 know, your loved ones, you know, it's like that. That's 362 00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:26.170 pretty common. But yes, for for us that that is a big challenge 363 00:23:26.210 --> 00:23:30.529 and really what we need is when the victim is ready for help, whether 364 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:33.529 through a law enforcement referral or they call us directly or another NGO like yourselves 365 00:23:33.569 --> 00:23:37.569 as connected and they said you're calling on behalf and you know you're in communications. 366 00:23:37.609 --> 00:23:40.650 You're saying, I want to help, I'm ready to get out. 367 00:23:40.970 --> 00:23:44.119 Well, we kind of need that invitation so we can provide services and help 368 00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:47.200 them, help them get out. If the person's not ready, then we 369 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:51.039 can't force them into it. and You you're probably running into the same thing 370 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:53.599 and I think the main thing to do there is just have that consistent outreach 371 00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.349 and just let them know help is here when you're ready and then if there 372 00:23:59.390 --> 00:24:02.509 are opportunities for conversation, which there rarely is. I mean it's not like 373 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:04.190 we can go get in a coffee shop and talk about your exit plan. 374 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:07.230 All this is being done in the margin. I mean this is being done 375 00:24:07.269 --> 00:24:11.460 in thin spaces of like hey, I had this moment to connect or I 376 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:14.859 had this moment to send you this message or communicate this through a third party, 377 00:24:15.700 --> 00:24:19.180 helping get word that like help is available. But then if there's a 378 00:24:19.420 --> 00:24:22.539 lot of nerves, that can be a tough thing to navigate. So I 379 00:24:22.660 --> 00:24:26.250 think the main thing we can do is obviously just be available, be consistent 380 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:30.609 and pray for them that they would they would attempt to exit. Yeah, 381 00:24:30.730 --> 00:24:36.170 on the second note, you know, I would highly encourage people, as 382 00:24:36.250 --> 00:24:37.839 with law enforcement, when you see an active crime going on, are you 383 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.160 say hey, this looks like trafficking. I definitely think this is, and 384 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.240 it's happening in real time and there's actionable things that can be done. One 385 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.000 hundred percent, you know, call enforcement right then and there and say, 386 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:51.200 Hey, I have reason to believe this is happening. The big challenge is 387 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.750 there. Is it so rare that you you run into a live, real 388 00:24:53.869 --> 00:24:59.150 situation where you could report it and it could be acted on in that window, 389 00:24:59.589 --> 00:25:02.430 because police need that burden to proof. Yeah, the and then the 390 00:25:02.509 --> 00:25:06.109 other challenge will run into, even if all that happens, is again, 391 00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:07.900 if the victim isn't ready for help. Yeah, they're going to be more 392 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:11.259 scared of their perpetrator than they are the law enforcement and they may feed law 393 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:15.019 enforcement a bunch of lines and and then basically they'd have to be well, 394 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:18.539 you're free to go, I guess. Yeah, everything in a way. 395 00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:21.930 It is highly complicated, right, and trying to engage well, in this 396 00:25:22.049 --> 00:25:25.210 specific situation. It I guess they could say it was here, say it 397 00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:30.490 was what she told me right month, but it was so horrific and she 398 00:25:30.650 --> 00:25:33.170 would not report it and I wondered, what's there any way I could anonymously 399 00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:40.359 reported and how while protecting her? And I didn't know what to do. 400 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:42.839 So I did nothing. Well, and and those situations, you know, 401 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.759 if there was a way to get if you had another engagement with her, 402 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.630 like when we do outreach weet we hand out our local hotline number, because 403 00:25:49.670 --> 00:25:52.029 what we're hoping for is, even if they're not ready right now, then 404 00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:56.509 on when they're ready or they filled that, there's a safe window and then 405 00:25:56.549 --> 00:25:59.990 they can call us and in that sense they can then serve them and get 406 00:26:00.069 --> 00:26:03.069 them out, because many of them in this lifestyle have been forced to do 407 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:07.740 the legal activity or there's a there's a fear of police or whatever it is. 408 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:11.579 So we can be an alternative, because we're not kicking indoors or anything 409 00:26:11.619 --> 00:26:15.380 like that. We're literally kind of a specialized taxi service for people wanted to 410 00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:18.609 exit this and we can do that as a victim atick an agency. So 411 00:26:18.970 --> 00:26:22.130 they don't they can just they can just exit. And many victims I've worked 412 00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:26.529 with it is shocked me when kind of you step back and zoom mount and 413 00:26:26.529 --> 00:26:30.970 you're going, wow, you didn't leave because you sit didn't have the simple 414 00:26:32.650 --> 00:26:37.960 resources to get away. So if you'd had even a few hundred dollars to 415 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.599 hire transport and immediate lodging, you maybe could have even done this yourself. 416 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.559 But you didn't even have that. You didn't have you barely had clothes on 417 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:49.150 your back. So that level of lack of resources can keep someone very trapped. 418 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:52.910 Yeah, and and yeah. So for us, getting the hot line 419 00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:57.230 out to the right people is critical and then having our opportunity to respond to 420 00:26:57.309 --> 00:27:00.619 a situation we've been invited to. And then, yeah, for other live 421 00:27:00.700 --> 00:27:04.539 action situations that are happening in a public setting, one hundred percent get the 422 00:27:04.579 --> 00:27:10.859 police in there and it's always appropriate to take information nonetheless and still called the 423 00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:14.299 non emergency number, whoever, and just passing that on to law enforcement, 424 00:27:14.380 --> 00:27:18.170 because you never, we never can assume what active investigations they have going on. 425 00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:22.450 Yeah, and and that information from the community maybe just enough, yeah, 426 00:27:22.529 --> 00:27:25.369 to take things to the next level. So it's it's you know, 427 00:27:25.490 --> 00:27:27.250 if police are saying hey, I'm good. I mean they're going to communicate 428 00:27:27.329 --> 00:27:30.839 that to you if they feel like hey, this really isn't helpful. But 429 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.519 I mean, otherwise I'd basically try to pass on information when I have it 430 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:37.240 and let them decide if it's useful. Yeah, yeah, so practically in 431 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.160 front of an abortion center where we're going to see, presumably the trafficker and 432 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:45.750 then the victims. And if we strongly suspected and we did call the police, 433 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:51.829 I know in our podcast on domestic violence that that can really endanger the 434 00:27:51.910 --> 00:27:56.190 woman because she's going to be punished. So can you talk about that at 435 00:27:56.230 --> 00:28:00.259 all? It's it's that effort an issue that the trafficker will then beat the 436 00:28:00.339 --> 00:28:04.619 woman afterwards or whatever. Because, yeah, so, well, guess what 437 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:07.980 you're saying, some kind of like the rules of engagement stuff. Yeah, 438 00:28:08.380 --> 00:28:12.329 okay's and don'ts. If we see this right, you're saying, of course, 439 00:28:12.490 --> 00:28:15.329 call law enforcement and then, of course, if you're able to get 440 00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:19.609 the hot line into their hands, get that into their hands. But as 441 00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:22.009 far as our interactions with that woman, what are some of the things that 442 00:28:22.089 --> 00:28:25.130 we should have got it? I got. Yeah, no, that's a 443 00:28:25.210 --> 00:28:29.599 really delicate one and and and to some degree most places I speak. I'd 444 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.559 price. I don't, you don't. I would encourage people not to engage, 445 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:37.000 for y'all, you're not your average street outreach individuals, volunteers. So 446 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.359 I wouldn't try to define what to do or not to do. I'd really 447 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:45.230 leave that up to individuals and to where how the holy spirits moving them. 448 00:28:45.430 --> 00:28:48.430 And I'm not going to say dows or don't because, hey, there's no 449 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:51.789 exact playbook for some of the stuff. But I am glad to hear the 450 00:28:51.910 --> 00:28:56.380 cock. Our cognisant of some outreach can put victims at risk and that's why 451 00:28:56.500 --> 00:29:00.579 when we do ours, we try to be very clandestine about it, because 452 00:29:00.380 --> 00:29:03.380 what you don't want to do, we like a matter of fact, good 453 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.619 example, we used to do street outreach. We used to like literally go 454 00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.130 out to where girls were walking, you know, the track, and engage 455 00:29:10.130 --> 00:29:11.170 them on the street and just, you know, hand them a card. 456 00:29:11.250 --> 00:29:14.569 You know, hey if you want to help. But but we saw that 457 00:29:14.849 --> 00:29:18.849 there's actually some risk there of the trafficker who's two hundred yards away and an 458 00:29:18.890 --> 00:29:22.250 Asu v than saying what was that about? You know, would you tell 459 00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:26.039 them, you know, unnecessarily bothering her and then even at Thomas we were 460 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:27.480 like, okay, well, we could discreetly hand it to her while driving 461 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:30.519 by, you know. But we just got to a point where it wasn't 462 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:36.160 very effective, like we almost never had anyone leave right then and we had 463 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.349 other other effective measures that that seem to be a lot more productive. I 464 00:29:40.390 --> 00:29:41.750 won't go into what those are, but, but, but that seemed to 465 00:29:41.789 --> 00:29:45.589 have been working better. So we kind of backed off from street outreach specifically, 466 00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:51.309 yeah, because it was the bigger risk with less response. Yeah, 467 00:29:52.190 --> 00:29:55.900 so same, same type thing. I would whatever that looks like, you 468 00:29:56.019 --> 00:29:57.220 know, for you guys or for other are groups that are may be listening, 469 00:29:57.740 --> 00:30:02.299 keep that in mind the way in which you engage, assume you're being 470 00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:06.180 watched and try to do not do things that could put more pressure on her, 471 00:30:06.660 --> 00:30:10.009 and it could be as simple as coming up with an excuse for your 472 00:30:10.049 --> 00:30:14.089 engagement other than providing services so that she has something to report back. Oh, 473 00:30:14.130 --> 00:30:17.210 they they were just asking me if I wanted to do adoption or what, 474 00:30:17.289 --> 00:30:18.849 you know, whatever it is, and just only talk about that, 475 00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:23.880 you know. But it's it is a challenge because we have it has to 476 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:26.480 be some level, you know, of engagement. We can't just say, 477 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.279 well, I hope they google this one day, yeah, which, fortunately 478 00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:33.319 they might. You know I mean, I know you'll have seen that. 479 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.710 I mean search engine optimizations a positive thing in this modern context, absolutely so 480 00:30:37.789 --> 00:30:40.670 that people with they have that moment to do a quick look online. We 481 00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:44.630 want to be up high where they could, they could find us. But 482 00:30:44.710 --> 00:30:48.069 it is a balance and and rules of engagement. You know, in many 483 00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:49.740 ways the good news is we're in America where we're free to talk to people, 484 00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:52.339 you know, and we don't have to walk around fearful of it. 485 00:30:52.700 --> 00:30:56.180 So I would really think in context that we just have to be careful that 486 00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:59.700 we're not putting someone in a bad position. Right, yeah, right, 487 00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:06.609 because even offering the resources he's going to perceive as a threat to his control 488 00:31:06.650 --> 00:31:10.250 over that woman because he was under so have that abortion and not talk to 489 00:31:10.329 --> 00:31:14.450 people about housing or whatever. Oh, yes, and I'm sure you've experienced 490 00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:17.650 it. I'm sure you've had it where you were doing street outreach and the 491 00:31:17.809 --> 00:31:21.000 man bringing the lady in tried to intimidate you all. I mean, I'm 492 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.960 for you. I'm sure you've had dozens of those cases. Like I'm tough 493 00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:26.359 and the reality is a right doesn't work that well, because you're like, 494 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.400 I'm I'm not here for you, Buddy. I'm praying for you, but 495 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:33.230 I'm concerned about that baby, yeah, and her belly right now. Let's 496 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:36.509 say best case scenario, we somehow get that woman alone. She does, 497 00:31:36.630 --> 00:31:38.789 somehow he's gone away or whatever, and we're able to talk with her. 498 00:31:38.869 --> 00:31:44.670 What are the resources that you offer? Sure, so we do our best 499 00:31:44.910 --> 00:31:49.700 to offer immediate shelter. Okay. So we have a setup where we try 500 00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:55.619 to have a response time that is literally within hours of Oh really, it's 501 00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:59.420 not always possible because, again, we are recovering north and South Carolina. 502 00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:01.809 Okay, we're a small grass roots team. Anyone out there listening to lists 503 00:32:01.849 --> 00:32:06.650 to help? We need your money in really bad like we need the financial 504 00:32:06.769 --> 00:32:09.849 support. So, because we're very much like a volunteer firefighter department that's covering 505 00:32:09.849 --> 00:32:15.880 a two state territory, right. So I'm getting calls that are sometimes spreading 506 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.359 you really thin. Yeah, and you have existing clients that also need your 507 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.519 help. So, with all that said, when we get a hotline call, 508 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.400 our goal would be to be able to get to that survivor within threehour 509 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.150 window. You know, and then and then get them set up with some 510 00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:32.829 immediate shelter and immediate resources to really have that clean break. Yeah, you 511 00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:37.390 know, it's kind of like, you know, when you're dealing with safe 512 00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:39.269 houses, you have to almost think like a virologist, you know, and 513 00:32:39.829 --> 00:32:44.299 not cross contaminating. You have to kind of a clean break from your active 514 00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:49.099 situation get you at a safe housing situation that's separate and on its own to 515 00:32:49.180 --> 00:32:52.180 assess and be that emergency time period until you can find the long term housing 516 00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:57.019 that we then transition them to, because we don't just pick people up and 517 00:32:57.059 --> 00:32:59.809 I'll take them to the same house, because that would be crazy. Right 518 00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:02.009 now, if it's a setup or it's fake, you just exposed a secure 519 00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:07.609 location. Yeah, so it's multifaceted and how we do the immediate housing, 520 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:10.089 but that's something we try to do. It a quick response. Honestly, 521 00:33:10.130 --> 00:33:15.240 during covid that's been a little more complicated because of the the health issues there, 522 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:21.319 and then even some of our housing has been limited because they're like, 523 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.240 oh, is this a quarantine situation? Are What is like no, no, 524 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:28.349 it's not. You know. So it's complex but in general, on 525 00:33:28.430 --> 00:33:30.710 a regular all systems go, we try to respond within hours of the call 526 00:33:31.029 --> 00:33:37.589 and get them immediate separation from the situation and and immediate safety and basic resources. 527 00:33:37.829 --> 00:33:39.309 Yeah, and do you kind of take over from there then? Also 528 00:33:39.349 --> 00:33:43.339 in terms of okay, they've been in the sex trade now for a while, 529 00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:46.059 they need work. Oh, yeah, job and whatever. So it 530 00:33:46.819 --> 00:33:50.859 or some do you hand them off to another agency or how does it work? 531 00:33:50.980 --> 00:33:54.019 So, yeah, I'll define it this way. So basically have four 532 00:33:54.099 --> 00:33:58.329 areas. You have outreach, which is just engaging the at risk population and 533 00:33:58.450 --> 00:34:00.730 which I would be a part of in this. Then you have emergency housing, 534 00:34:00.849 --> 00:34:05.369 emergent care, and that can be the first three days to the first 535 00:34:05.410 --> 00:34:07.329 three months. I mean we'll have someone set up for sometimes three months before 536 00:34:07.329 --> 00:34:13.119 we transition them. If there's limited availability. There's there's still only thousand plus 537 00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:15.719 bed space across the country for designated for sex traffick. Yeah, it's a 538 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.440 drop in the bucket. So we always have to get creative and outside of 539 00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:24.190 the specified sex trafficking bed space. That's a common thing. So that's the 540 00:34:24.269 --> 00:34:29.510 emergent care and then what I call program care is when you send them to 541 00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:34.309 a woman's home or a housing program. That could be up to twelve months 542 00:34:34.750 --> 00:34:37.110 is the idea, and there they're getting more comprehensive care and going through some 543 00:34:37.150 --> 00:34:42.260 counseling and healing and then you kind of graduate that and then transition to independent 544 00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:45.539 living. And then that's what I call transitional care. So you have outreach, 545 00:34:45.699 --> 00:34:50.139 emergent care, program care, transitional care and when we do a little 546 00:34:50.139 --> 00:34:52.929 bit of all of it. We have one home for program care that stays 547 00:34:53.449 --> 00:34:57.530 fairly occupied. Yeah, right now it's about three quarters full, but we 548 00:34:57.610 --> 00:35:00.250 work with groups all across the country that they do have those kind of houses. 549 00:35:00.329 --> 00:35:04.849 Yeah, from West Coast to Texas you know, to Caroline's all over. 550 00:35:05.050 --> 00:35:07.480 Yeah, and and unfortunately so many of them do stay full. The 551 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.920 ones that are run well, they stayed full. I mean the as Y'all 552 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.800 know, there's a lot of need. So there is room to expand in 553 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.840 that topic especially. So where we have focused a lot of our energy is 554 00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:21.510 on the emergent side. We found you got to get them out first. 555 00:35:21.550 --> 00:35:23.949 If nothing else, helping them get away and get safe and put them on 556 00:35:24.030 --> 00:35:28.230 our direction is better than nothing. So we put a lot of energy there. 557 00:35:28.829 --> 00:35:30.630 We use our safe houls and then we work with others across the country 558 00:35:30.670 --> 00:35:34.469 for long term care. And then we also put a great deal of energy 559 00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:38.219 on the transitional because what so often would happen is someone completes a program, 560 00:35:38.460 --> 00:35:42.980 they've been out for a year, it's been going great, but they've also 561 00:35:43.019 --> 00:35:45.860 been living in this kind of not real life situation because they're having all this 562 00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:50.289 support. Yeah, and no rent and don't have a grocery bill or anything 563 00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:52.329 like that. Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're supposed to be 564 00:35:52.409 --> 00:35:54.849 better now and just go make it, and so many can fall right back 565 00:35:54.849 --> 00:35:59.010 into this or something similar, and we don't want that to happen. So 566 00:35:59.449 --> 00:36:02.610 we put a lot of our effort on transitional care, and that's helping with 567 00:36:02.929 --> 00:36:07.559 rent assistance. Or your car broke down and we're going to help you get 568 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:08.800 it back on the road because you got to keep the car seat and keep 569 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.559 your job and get your kids the child care and you know all those things. 570 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.280 We do do what we can to assist with work placement or at least 571 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:20.909 completing education through a ged or community college, and then we also assist with 572 00:36:21.070 --> 00:36:23.469 child care expenses as well, where we can what we have budgeted. I 573 00:36:23.510 --> 00:36:27.710 mean, again, we're small budget but we try to make those things a 574 00:36:27.829 --> 00:36:30.590 priority because the the individual who's a year and a half out and just trying 575 00:36:30.590 --> 00:36:34.460 to get on their feet is just as important and we don't want them to 576 00:36:34.579 --> 00:36:37.699 fall right back into it and be someone who's going to call again because we 577 00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:40.380 didn't see it through. It's so we do our best to do that. 578 00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:46.019 But that's another area where we can invite the local church into it more. 579 00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:50.130 I mean we just see ourselves as an arm of the church and a lot 580 00:36:50.170 --> 00:36:54.130 of our team are pastor's wives and things like that. But but at that 581 00:36:54.329 --> 00:37:00.599 level of volunteerism is is a unique opportunity for just the everyday volunteer who says 582 00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.519 I want to help somehow. Will Great. Maybe you could be kind of 583 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:07.559 a mentor for the other individual who who just has some like life navigating questions 584 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.280 not so much. Helped me work out my trauma questions, which you don't 585 00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:14.519 you don't need to need as much training for that. So that that's that's 586 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.750 where we put our energies, on the emergent and on the transitional. But 587 00:37:17.070 --> 00:37:20.949 even I mean right now the program house we have, I mean it's costing 588 00:37:20.989 --> 00:37:23.309 us about eight thousand dollars a month to run that. Wow. So if 589 00:37:23.909 --> 00:37:28.230 anyone wants to help us and get started. We're we actually had a donor 590 00:37:28.269 --> 00:37:30.900 that was supporting that. They won't be able to continue with that. So 591 00:37:30.019 --> 00:37:34.980 we're now fundraising for that, specifically in trying to get a recurring eight thousand 592 00:37:34.980 --> 00:37:37.460 a month to keep the safe house fully funded and its own thing and and 593 00:37:38.219 --> 00:37:43.219 keep that running smooth. Are Those women that are just in the Charlotte area? 594 00:37:43.260 --> 00:37:45.170 Are you drawing women from all over, all over country, fall over 595 00:37:45.250 --> 00:37:50.130 that safe housing corre? Yeah, all over the yeah, wow. Yeah, 596 00:37:50.170 --> 00:37:52.969 it's interesting in that sense. And and so many of the clients we 597 00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:55.449 do serve in the Charlotte area in end up going out of state. We 598 00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:58.800 had many, many that want I just they want to get away, which 599 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:00.599 makes sense. And Yeah, it's not a bad plan. And once, 600 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:04.800 once that does happen. To answer your earlier question, there is kind of 601 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.559 a passing of the baton. At that point. We've done our peace and 602 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.239 once we place them with a group in Arizona for now our jobs done, 603 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.429 unless they need to call us back. Right. Yeah, how how often 604 00:38:14.510 --> 00:38:19.190 do they just return to the same lifestyle or once? The success rate, 605 00:38:19.230 --> 00:38:22.110 I guess, of the yeah, of once you get them out of the 606 00:38:22.230 --> 00:38:24.429 situation, do most of them make it. I don't have the active numbers. 607 00:38:25.150 --> 00:38:29.900 In the earlier years I was able to track it a little more and 608 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:35.260 I felt like it was thirty five forty percent would fall back into Instana, 609 00:38:35.300 --> 00:38:38.059 collect into it, okay, or fall back into some kind of exploitive context. 610 00:38:38.380 --> 00:38:43.809 But one positive is we'd have many of them call us again. Yeah, 611 00:38:43.889 --> 00:38:46.449 and then there was an opportunity to to serve that individual second time in. 612 00:38:46.889 --> 00:38:50.210 And you know, we're the doors are open if you want help, 613 00:38:50.409 --> 00:38:53.690 and it's not. Obviously you adapt it each time because you know we don't 614 00:38:53.690 --> 00:38:57.360 want to enable or anything. But but yeah, certainly you made a mistake, 615 00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:59.559 don't we all? That's that's what it's supposed to look like. We 616 00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:01.679 were supposed to be there for him. So earlier on it was. That's 617 00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:06.639 the numbers I were seeing. Right now, I honestly don't have clear numbers 618 00:39:06.679 --> 00:39:10.789 because so many of the victims in recent years we've served, we have helped 619 00:39:10.829 --> 00:39:15.389 them to the next phase and then our job was done. And if they 620 00:39:15.429 --> 00:39:17.389 change phone numbers six months later, I have no way of engaging them, 621 00:39:17.710 --> 00:39:22.030 and so I really don't know. You know, and then that's okay. 622 00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:24.699 You know, it's not I mean we're the stance of call us if you 623 00:39:24.739 --> 00:39:28.860 need us kind of thing. But just because I haven't heard from somebody doesn't 624 00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:31.139 mean I assume they fallen back into it. So I don't know that it's 625 00:39:31.179 --> 00:39:35.300 I'm really hoping it's not that high as it seemed in the earlier years. 626 00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:40.130 So and the other benefit we're dealing with is there more houses than there used 627 00:39:40.130 --> 00:39:45.969 to be a back when I started, I think there was only six hundred 628 00:39:45.010 --> 00:39:50.489 beds nationwide for trafficking. No, no, I'd take that back. In 629 00:39:50.570 --> 00:39:53.760 two thousand and ten there was only one hundred beds nationwide designated for sex trafficking 630 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:58.239 survivors. And around two thousand and fourteen, which is when I was reflecting 631 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.880 on the is at forty percent. You know, I it was I think 632 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:05.719 there was around six hundred and now probably closer to a thousand. Are More, 633 00:40:05.880 --> 00:40:07.389 you know, I you lose track because Agen she's come up and go 634 00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:12.349 on to every day. But we're in a much better position, you know, 635 00:40:12.429 --> 00:40:15.550 then we were ten years ago at is as a country when it comes 636 00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:20.190 to resources. Yeah, what are we looking at as far as statistically, 637 00:40:20.389 --> 00:40:22.940 nationally, how many of these? I mean, I know it's hard to 638 00:40:23.059 --> 00:40:27.260 gaze. Sure, sure, sort of these shot in the dark estimates, 639 00:40:27.340 --> 00:40:30.619 but what are the estimates of how many women are trafficked every year? Yeah, 640 00:40:30.659 --> 00:40:35.769 and and all of that. Yeah, it's I mean hundreds of thousands. 641 00:40:35.849 --> 00:40:38.650 I mean I can say that. I wouldn't try to speculate on numbers. 642 00:40:39.050 --> 00:40:45.090 And internationally it's we're talking thirty to forty million, right, you know, 643 00:40:45.289 --> 00:40:49.610 type thing people called in human trafficking. In terms of state side, 644 00:40:49.650 --> 00:40:52.039 even back in two thousand and ten, when I was starting, the State 645 00:40:52.159 --> 00:41:00.760 Department said there was risk of one hundred to three hundred thousand children being trafficked 646 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:04.469 in the US every year. Wow, so that was ten years ago and 647 00:41:04.550 --> 00:41:07.429 they were had a hundred to three hundred thousand estimate annually. Yeah, so 648 00:41:07.510 --> 00:41:12.190 I was like wow, that's crazy and that's just kids. So we can 649 00:41:12.230 --> 00:41:14.989 assume it's actually probably higher than that. And we can assume as it relates 650 00:41:14.989 --> 00:41:19.980 to adults and and every demographic, you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of people. 651 00:41:20.300 --> 00:41:22.340 The other thing we have going on to your point earlier, the most 652 00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:25.619 of our clients are US citizens. We do have some that are foreign national 653 00:41:25.980 --> 00:41:30.780 and I've done some work down to the border doing trafficking assessments. I briefly 654 00:41:30.940 --> 00:41:35.489 was was contracting with Samaritans first last summer just to assist with some some trafficking 655 00:41:35.489 --> 00:41:39.769 assessments down there. And and man, we we we have a huge risk 656 00:41:40.250 --> 00:41:44.769 of people that are even coming through and have their court date and things like 657 00:41:44.849 --> 00:41:46.639 that, that are that are have been tagged, that there's still such a 658 00:41:47.639 --> 00:41:52.639 potential risk of them being exploded just due to basic vulnerabilities of yeah, I 659 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.920 know the language. I can't work right now. I'm kind of dependent on 660 00:41:55.039 --> 00:42:00.599 my sponsor. Even those that assists are seeking asylum and were granted temporary asylum, 661 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:02.909 like, even those are at risk, much less those that have gotten 662 00:42:02.949 --> 00:42:06.989 in and are not documented at all. I mean, so certainly they're not 663 00:42:07.070 --> 00:42:09.630 calling the police or anything if someone finds them and decides to exploit them. 664 00:42:10.070 --> 00:42:15.579 So you have, you have a lot of potential risk of foreign nationals being 665 00:42:15.699 --> 00:42:20.940 trafficked through the the cartel's just just doing it to an organized crime sense, 666 00:42:21.219 --> 00:42:23.340 or even those that have made their way here, you know, whether they're, 667 00:42:23.659 --> 00:42:27.820 you know, having asylum or not, they're still a potentially at rest 668 00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:30.610 for being manipulated. Yeah, and and that's that. That is just a 669 00:42:30.889 --> 00:42:37.050 administrative item that would be so tough to try to analyze and get a handle 670 00:42:37.130 --> 00:42:39.530 on, like how big is that possibly? So I think a lot of 671 00:42:39.610 --> 00:42:44.400 that's even further underground. But it again, I mean, I think again. 672 00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.519 My main message is it's it's way bigger than people think, and I 673 00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:52.920 think sometimes it surprises me occasionally on social media or whatnot. Is like when 674 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.840 you hear about a case and people are like, well, I can't believe 675 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:58.710 this, and I'm like yeah, that's terrible, but guys, it's way 676 00:42:58.789 --> 00:43:00.389 bigger than that, you know, and just like having an every day. 677 00:43:00.469 --> 00:43:06.070 Now one situation here's going missing daily and you're just dealing with massive numbers of 678 00:43:06.190 --> 00:43:09.309 people that otherwise you wouldn't really be aware of it. Yeah, I know 679 00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:14.619 some folks, at least that I see on social media is almost like this 680 00:43:14.739 --> 00:43:17.139 is a conspiracy theory. Yeah, it's really not happening. You people are 681 00:43:17.179 --> 00:43:22.179 saying it's happening, but the real numbers are there, you can really find 682 00:43:22.219 --> 00:43:25.739 out this is. This is not just some conspiracy that it's happening. It's 683 00:43:25.820 --> 00:43:30.050 conspiracy for sure, but it's not just a conspiracy theory. Yeah, it's 684 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:34.210 happening. You know, people are being exploited, children are being exploited and, 685 00:43:34.769 --> 00:43:38.409 from what you're saying, abortion, as far as the way these issues 686 00:43:38.530 --> 00:43:44.079 tied together, is used as a cover up. Yeah, a manipulation device 687 00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.440 and other things that we really need to be on the lookout for. Those 688 00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:51.719 your minister in front of an abortion center. Absolutely. Yeah, and I 689 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:53.960 think for the listeners I would throw something out that may help provide some context. 690 00:43:54.079 --> 00:44:00.070 I think very often it's easy to say we have to have a mindset 691 00:44:00.150 --> 00:44:02.349 shift, you know, and well, what is what a sex trafficking look 692 00:44:02.389 --> 00:44:06.469 like? Because it's it's easy to even drive down a sugar creek or wherever 693 00:44:06.510 --> 00:44:09.300 and say, all that's just some my prostitute. You know, maybe, 694 00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:14.420 and it might be. However, there's a lot of things that could look 695 00:44:14.420 --> 00:44:16.739 like prostitution or look like you're working for yourself, where you're actually not. 696 00:44:17.059 --> 00:44:20.820 Yeah, a lot of the individuals we've served, a lot of the young 697 00:44:20.860 --> 00:44:22.940 ladies we've assisted, if you just met him on the street or at an 698 00:44:23.019 --> 00:44:27.090 eleven or whatever you may be, wouldn't a thought much of it. Yeah, 699 00:44:27.170 --> 00:44:29.530 and even if you to your point, if you'd ask them directly, 700 00:44:29.570 --> 00:44:30.449 that may say no, I'm fine, get out of my face and cut 701 00:44:30.489 --> 00:44:34.809 you out a little bitute. So it's we have this image of like some 702 00:44:34.969 --> 00:44:37.050 twelve year old Asian, you know, girl in a cage somewhere, and 703 00:44:37.090 --> 00:44:40.360 that's human trafficking and it and it is right and that that is that is 704 00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:45.559 very real and very massive concern and that's that's part of it. But it 705 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.079 also can kind of be right under your nose. Yeah, and we could 706 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:51.679 even see it and write it off as and why want they get their act 707 00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:53.670 together, right? We don't know that there actually is a pimp that is 708 00:44:53.750 --> 00:44:58.789 controlling them and unfortunately she actually sees him as Kinind of a boyfriend. So 709 00:44:58.989 --> 00:45:02.510 it's really messy. Yeah, but nonetheless he's having her sleep with multiple people 710 00:45:02.550 --> 00:45:07.300 to night and he's keeping the money right like. So that is sex trafficking 711 00:45:07.579 --> 00:45:12.019 and it's so I think sometimes the reason we are shocked by the numbers is 712 00:45:12.659 --> 00:45:15.019 we aren't including that. There's a lot of those cases that may not look 713 00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:19.019 like what in our mind it would look like, but it actually is playing 714 00:45:19.059 --> 00:45:22.769 out. Are there may be some questions that we could ask if we do 715 00:45:22.010 --> 00:45:27.449 happen to get them alone, that would reveal to us what's going on. 716 00:45:28.130 --> 00:45:35.960 Maybe if they're hesitant at first, to reveal it really obviously for me what 717 00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.559 is what has been beneficial, because, I mean, here's the thing. 718 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:42.480 In our modern twenty twenty context, a stranger walking up and wanting to help, 719 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:44.440 it's going to freak a lot of people out. And, yeah, 720 00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:46.320 you know they're going to say, what is your angle? Yeah, and 721 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.710 and and fair enough. I mean I've had so many of our clients tell 722 00:45:50.710 --> 00:45:52.829 me and one time or another, wow, you're the first man I've dealt 723 00:45:52.869 --> 00:45:57.949 with in years that didn't want anything from me right now. And like even 724 00:45:58.030 --> 00:46:00.829 to the point where a new client sometimes will say, say we get them 725 00:46:00.869 --> 00:46:04.269 set up with some stuff and bring them groceries, and whenever they'll say, 726 00:46:04.340 --> 00:46:06.380 I'll find a way to pay you back, and I go, let me 727 00:46:06.579 --> 00:46:09.539 clarify, like, there's no payback here right. Yeah, you think us 728 00:46:09.780 --> 00:46:14.219 by getting getting better and get the help that we're trying to offer. And 729 00:46:14.579 --> 00:46:17.849 but like even the idea that we legitimately want to help and there's no strings 730 00:46:17.889 --> 00:46:22.570 attached. On the flip side, I've often thought, how bad does your 731 00:46:22.610 --> 00:46:28.929 situation have to be when you're willing to get into a van with strangers three 732 00:46:29.010 --> 00:46:30.409 am off the side of the road. Yeah, you got to say, 733 00:46:30.449 --> 00:46:34.599 anything's better than what I'm doing with you know. I mean it's a gutsy 734 00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:37.400 move on their part. But so, yeah, to your point, I 735 00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:40.199 think we have to go on with the understanding that they're not going to assume 736 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:45.480 there's no strings attached. They're also going to assume you can't handle what I'm 737 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.590 going through. And sometimes there's even a testing period of like I'm going to 738 00:46:47.670 --> 00:46:51.349 cut you out, I'm going to be difficult because I'm going to see if 739 00:46:51.389 --> 00:46:53.789 you're for real, if you really just love me for me, or if 740 00:46:53.829 --> 00:46:57.789 you know you're trying to meet a quota or you know, whatever it is. 741 00:46:58.190 --> 00:47:00.030 And and and that's that's kind of the thing. It just just saying, 742 00:47:00.030 --> 00:47:02.699 Hey, we're just here to help, no strings attached. Test us 743 00:47:02.780 --> 00:47:06.139 on that. Yeah, I mean it's like if try give me, give 744 00:47:06.139 --> 00:47:07.500 it a shot, you don't want it. And I've even I've even had 745 00:47:07.539 --> 00:47:10.739 to clarify that with those that we have helped in an emergency context remove and 746 00:47:10.780 --> 00:47:14.179 get them placed and get them set up. I say, Hey, I 747 00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:15.769 would be really clear, like, especially if they're over eighteen, I say 748 00:47:15.809 --> 00:47:19.210 you're not a prisoner here. If it's some point you just want to go 749 00:47:19.489 --> 00:47:22.929 like you you can. The only thing I'll ask is you can't tell anybody 750 00:47:22.929 --> 00:47:27.170 where this location is and you can't in bite people over here. But you 751 00:47:27.289 --> 00:47:29.369 are not trapped. Now, if you feel like you're about to go, 752 00:47:29.889 --> 00:47:32.400 please call us first and let us help you on that journey. But you 753 00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:37.199 are not stuck. Everything we're offering is free, and I know that sounds 754 00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:38.920 crazy because nothing's free, right, but but it is, you know, 755 00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:43.079 and we just truly want to help you. So I really almost helping them 756 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.590 see that there's that they're not stuck, that, yeah, they have some 757 00:47:46.750 --> 00:47:50.590 power here, and I and that. That's the crazy shift. Can you 758 00:47:50.630 --> 00:47:52.429 imagine going from a situation for, say, the past three years, you 759 00:47:52.469 --> 00:47:57.349 couldn't even decide what you ate or when you ate right or when you slept 760 00:47:57.389 --> 00:48:04.099 right, and then now these random church people in our saying hey, what 761 00:48:04.179 --> 00:48:07.059 do you what even taste for? What can we pick you up? You 762 00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:08.219 know what says jeans, you are you know. It was like, what 763 00:48:08.380 --> 00:48:12.219 are you talking about? It could be a very far and like what? 764 00:48:12.460 --> 00:48:14.289 Who? WHOA? WHOA, Whoa, you know, what are you gonna 765 00:48:14.289 --> 00:48:15.289 make me? Do you know what? He's signing me up for. Nothing. 766 00:48:15.570 --> 00:48:20.690 We're just here to help and and again. Wow, what a great 767 00:48:20.730 --> 00:48:22.929 context when they say, well, why are you doing this? Right, 768 00:48:22.969 --> 00:48:24.489 well, that gives you the opportunity. I was just going to ask our 769 00:48:24.530 --> 00:48:27.639 do you do you share the gods? Yes, and a party. You 770 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.880 get, you get. Didn't say. I'm so glad you asked. Right 771 00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.719 exactly. There's this Guy Jesus. He's the son of God, the Savior 772 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:35.719 of the world, and I loves you and he's the one that said coming 773 00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:39.079 get you. So if you if you don't like what we're offer and take 774 00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:42.829 it up with him. It's like but, but Jesus loves you and we 775 00:48:42.949 --> 00:48:45.110 love you, and this is a way we can show our love towards Jesus 776 00:48:45.150 --> 00:48:46.510 by caring for you. Yeah, and are you seeing people coming to the 777 00:48:46.590 --> 00:48:50.869 Lord too? We do. And and you know what else is also fascinated 778 00:48:50.909 --> 00:48:55.260 me. How many have actually they do. It may be kind of hidden 779 00:48:55.260 --> 00:48:59.699 under the debris, but like somebody them even have some relationship with Christ. 780 00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:01.579 That's share did is they are. Yeah, and then there's that opportunity to 781 00:49:01.860 --> 00:49:06.300 really just bring them, help them come back to intimacy with the Lord. 782 00:49:06.300 --> 00:49:08.420 Yeah, it's it's not. Sometimes it's a WHO's Jesus, but but a 783 00:49:08.500 --> 00:49:12.289 lot of times it's a yeah, now I know he's out there and it's 784 00:49:12.289 --> 00:49:15.969 just then our opportunity as brothers and sisters to then kind of just just lead 785 00:49:15.010 --> 00:49:17.889 them back to him and and then then then it really makes sense. And 786 00:49:19.090 --> 00:49:22.130 then I think the other important thing for groups like us to do is to 787 00:49:22.250 --> 00:49:24.599 see everything we're providing. Again, it's not me. The different bes between 788 00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:29.119 the Good Samaritan and US is gets mad and paid for it off his dial 789 00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:31.239 is in my money that this is coming from the church and from donors, 790 00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:35.360 and this is coming from this is ultimately all the Lords. I mean we 791 00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:38.909 all know it's all the Lords and we're just trying to take resources and put 792 00:49:38.949 --> 00:49:43.750 it into those that have need. But now that that is the funniest thing. 793 00:49:43.789 --> 00:49:45.469 In fact, when I've when I've had secular groups try to have us 794 00:49:45.510 --> 00:49:49.110 in a gatcha moment. So you're just trying to prosplitize. You try to 795 00:49:49.110 --> 00:49:52.670 do this, I'm going actually, we're just registered as a charity, but 796 00:49:52.789 --> 00:49:54.900 I say the reality is, would that be so bad? But but secondly, 797 00:49:55.059 --> 00:50:00.340 even still almost, I mean ninety nine percent of the time it's the 798 00:50:00.420 --> 00:50:04.820 survivors that bring up anything about spirituality or why we're here, even before we 799 00:50:05.179 --> 00:50:07.889 need to, because it does come to mind. Why are you here? 800 00:50:07.010 --> 00:50:10.969 What is prompting this action? Well, Jesus Christ, that that's why we're 801 00:50:10.969 --> 00:50:15.289 here. Yeah, he mad. Well, mark, we're going to wrap 802 00:50:15.369 --> 00:50:16.610 this thing up and just a minute, man, but I really appreciate you 803 00:50:16.690 --> 00:50:22.159 coming on and the thing talking about all this. But before we wrap this 804 00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.119 up, is there a story or something you can share just in a situation 805 00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:30.039 you've been involved in or justice ministries has been involved in that would encourage folks? 806 00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:34.079 Sure, yeah, man, there's there's so many. So yeah, 807 00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:38.469 I have one in mind and she's got she's got some some children and is 808 00:50:38.550 --> 00:50:44.469 doing well now, but she just recently reached out and she's been out a 809 00:50:44.630 --> 00:50:49.190 long time. She's doing fine, but you know, she was just saying, 810 00:50:49.230 --> 00:50:52.579 Hey, is there, is there anything I can do to help what's 811 00:50:52.579 --> 00:50:55.659 going on and help support the ministry, and she even offered to like do 812 00:50:55.780 --> 00:50:59.900 some paintings and then things like that to see if like there's something you could 813 00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:00.780 auction off or whatever, which was hey, if you want to do that, 814 00:51:00.860 --> 00:51:05.769 that's amazing. It's super kind. But just seeing that healing that does 815 00:51:05.889 --> 00:51:10.809 take place, that in the support that is able to be provided that's able 816 00:51:10.889 --> 00:51:15.250 to help her not be in a place of necessarily survival mode years out. 817 00:51:15.489 --> 00:51:20.000 Yeah, but like because of that continued transitional care, she's at a place 818 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:23.079 where where her mindsets going to how can I help that the next generation? 819 00:51:23.239 --> 00:51:27.559 How can I be there for the other girls? And she's going I'm kind 820 00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:29.679 of stay at home mom. I don't have a lot I can do right 821 00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:31.239 now. But like, can I draw them? Can I draw pictures? 822 00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.789 Got To do a craft, got to do anything that would be be useful 823 00:51:35.190 --> 00:51:38.989 and and I that's really an encouragement to me to see that it's not this 824 00:51:39.190 --> 00:51:44.309 idea of well, I'm a victim and that's what I am. A victim 825 00:51:44.389 --> 00:51:46.940 status is temporary. Yeah, like and if for anyone listening it's been through 826 00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:51.860 that kind of stuff, there's nothing innately wrong about being victimized. It had 827 00:51:51.980 --> 00:51:53.739 nothing to do with you. I mean, even if you made some poor 828 00:51:53.780 --> 00:51:57.420 decisions that led to that, still not your fault. We all make poor 829 00:51:57.460 --> 00:52:00.730 decisions every single day, like it just it happened to you and there's nothing 830 00:52:00.730 --> 00:52:04.690 wrong with the individuals caught up in this. There's something wrong with what happened 831 00:52:04.690 --> 00:52:07.730 to them. Yeah, even still if you have been victimized, if you 832 00:52:07.769 --> 00:52:10.769 are going through that situation, it is okay to receive help. We all 833 00:52:10.849 --> 00:52:15.880 need it. Everyone needs help from time to time, and but that does 834 00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.199 not define you. That's not where your identity is. And moving forward, 835 00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:23.760 if there's any responsibility, it is to say, okay, now that I've 836 00:52:24.280 --> 00:52:28.639 gotten the help I need, I'm healthy again. Are Healthy for the first 837 00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:30.909 time. Okay, great, it's been certainly if you're a believer. Okay, 838 00:52:31.070 --> 00:52:35.150 now go out and serve your neighbor. Yeah, you know if I 839 00:52:35.230 --> 00:52:37.590 have any action outem for them, kind of like I told the other girls, 840 00:52:37.710 --> 00:52:39.269 no need to pay back, but hey, if you want to help, 841 00:52:39.550 --> 00:52:43.150 then help help the next person. And that's really the whole point, 842 00:52:43.190 --> 00:52:45.380 because at the end of the day, it's not about being a sex trafficking 843 00:52:45.420 --> 00:52:47.340 victim or this or this or this. It's all just image bearers of God. 844 00:52:47.539 --> 00:52:52.059 We're just people, were brothers and sisters that are all messed up, 845 00:52:52.420 --> 00:52:54.739 but we've got a, you know, perfect father and we've got the perfect 846 00:52:54.739 --> 00:52:59.210 savior in Jesus, and we can, we can now move forward with life 847 00:52:59.530 --> 00:53:02.489 with a light burden because he carries us through it. And and then so 848 00:53:02.610 --> 00:53:06.090 that that's that's my message. The enemy and then the world wants us to 849 00:53:06.130 --> 00:53:07.889 stay in some kind of label of like you're this, you're this, that, 850 00:53:07.929 --> 00:53:13.079 you you are your past. It Ain't aboudy yesterday. It's about where 851 00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:15.559 you're at today, from where the Lord's leading you tomorrow. Yeah, a 852 00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:19.320 man. So if people wanted to get in touch with you, what's the 853 00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:23.360 website and maybe an email address? Reach out to you. Sure. Yeah, 854 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:27.909 the the websites. If you just google us, justice ministries, where 855 00:53:27.949 --> 00:53:31.750 you go to wwwe justice ministries dot Org. Okay, we're also on facebook 856 00:53:31.869 --> 00:53:36.750 and instagram and we also have a smartphone APP. So if they in your 857 00:53:36.789 --> 00:53:40.070 APP store, if you just search justice ministries, our logo is a bison, 858 00:53:40.269 --> 00:53:44.059 American Buffalo. Yeah, a lot of people ask us what is that 859 00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:45.780 about and when we pick that just because it was a cool looking mascot. 860 00:53:45.940 --> 00:53:50.980 But but with with Bison, when predators would approach a herd of Bison, 861 00:53:51.340 --> 00:53:54.659 they would kind of form a natural kind of a protective perimeter around the smaller 862 00:53:54.730 --> 00:53:58.889 bi center with one was sick and things like that, to kind of protect 863 00:53:58.929 --> 00:54:01.530 them from from the the wolves or whatever going after them. And and that's 864 00:54:01.530 --> 00:54:05.369 kind of our posture where we're here more than defensive posture, not so much 865 00:54:05.369 --> 00:54:08.329 offensive. The other thing that's kind of interesting is bison in America used to 866 00:54:08.449 --> 00:54:13.239 flourish and run all over the planes and whatnot, and and they almost went 867 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:15.599 extinct, you know, yeah, because they were kind of, if you 868 00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:17.559 will, oppressed so heavily. But no one looks at a bison and says 869 00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:21.199 wow, what a weak animal, right. So that's again kind of kind 870 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.590 of my message to our our survivors. It's like no one looks at Bison 871 00:54:23.630 --> 00:54:27.590 and says, Oh wow, I mean that's a strong, strong animal. 872 00:54:28.030 --> 00:54:30.949 And and what they went through a hundred years ago and nothing to do with 873 00:54:30.989 --> 00:54:32.429 them. It was just a greed of other other people. Yeah, but 874 00:54:32.469 --> 00:54:36.550 yeah. So, anyways, when you look on the that look us up, 875 00:54:36.550 --> 00:54:38.780 you'll see that little logo. Okay, American, cool. So justice 876 00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:43.780 ministries dot org and they can reach out to you through that. Your email 877 00:54:43.780 --> 00:54:46.099 dress is likely, they're sure, and phone number reach out to. And 878 00:54:46.219 --> 00:54:49.539 then, if you guys who are listening, if you want to donate and 879 00:54:49.539 --> 00:54:53.570 support their ministry, like any nonprofit, they need your support. Maybe your 880 00:54:53.650 --> 00:54:59.849 church has really got a burden for the issue of sex trafficking certainly. I'm 881 00:54:59.889 --> 00:55:02.250 sure you guys would love churches supporting him. Oh, I probably already have, 882 00:55:02.369 --> 00:55:06.210 and that's sometimes our primary support. Yeah, so, yeah, we 883 00:55:06.289 --> 00:55:09.440 we're happy to speak at churches or small groups and happy to set up a 884 00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:13.239 zoom meeting or call with with anybody wants to learn more. I mean, 885 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:15.239 I get it, I welcome I welcome the questions and we want to be 886 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:20.679 as straightforward as we can and tell you what we can. That doesn't jeopardize 887 00:55:20.679 --> 00:55:22.510 any security. But yeah, it's a weird thing to market. Yeah, 888 00:55:23.269 --> 00:55:28.349 this counter sex trafficking is a tough thing to advertise. But but yeah, 889 00:55:28.349 --> 00:55:30.510 we certainly appreciate you guys having us and helping us. Hey, thank you 890 00:55:30.590 --> 00:55:34.670 for what you're doing in the collaboration. As we it's just all an effort. 891 00:55:34.750 --> 00:55:37.659 Just just take a stance for life. Yeah, and serve the oppressed 892 00:55:37.780 --> 00:55:40.659 and and again, I love what you are doing and we're happy to partner 893 00:55:40.699 --> 00:55:44.739 with you where we can. Yeah, I appreciate that. Brother, appreciate 894 00:55:44.780 --> 00:55:47.019 your time. I bless you and you guys who are listening. We appreciate 895 00:55:47.099 --> 00:55:51.769 you listening. We just ask you to share this podcast, share it with 896 00:55:51.889 --> 00:55:54.170 friends and family, put it out on social media. Reach out to me, 897 00:55:54.250 --> 00:55:59.889 D parks at cities for lifecom and her V cassie organ cities for Lifecom, 898 00:56:00.329 --> 00:56:04.400 if you have any any questions, and maybe other subjects you want us 899 00:56:04.440 --> 00:56:07.920 to cover. We'd certainly live a cover their subjects. But until next time, 900 00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:20.670 God bless give me our love for love, give me our loft for 901 00:56:20.909 --> 00:56:32.019 gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious. 902 00:56:32.340 --> 00:56:34.699 And some met you