Abortion and Racism in The US - Interview with Melissa Pellew

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.719 If you want to talk about a picture of true love, of sacrificial love, 2 00:00:04.719 --> 00:00:12.230 of love for humanity. If there's any sort of picture of virtual unity 3 00:00:12.310 --> 00:00:16.550 and love, it's on that side law, as people are reaching across racial 4 00:00:16.710 --> 00:00:23.059 lines to literally save lives and to offer help resources, and it's in a 5 00:00:23.460 --> 00:00:30.620 total change in direction and one's like. I Am Yours, I am yours, 6 00:00:31.140 --> 00:00:36.049 I am yours. Send Me Lord, I am your. Welcome to 7 00:00:36.090 --> 00:00:39.490 the Gospel Center pro life podcast. In this episode we have an interview with 8 00:00:39.609 --> 00:00:45.409 Melissa Pollu, who talks to us about abortion and racism in America. Please 9 00:00:45.450 --> 00:00:51.719 join us as we cover this topic from a Gospel Center perspective. I felt 10 00:00:52.159 --> 00:01:04.670 show, passish, touch your use me love. I've welcome to the Gospel 11 00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:08.189 Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you, guys listening. We have a special 12 00:01:08.230 --> 00:01:12.989 guest with us today and we're going to talk about a special subject and a 13 00:01:14.069 --> 00:01:17.510 difficult subject for many of us to deal with and to think through, but 14 00:01:17.549 --> 00:01:21.060 hopefully we'll be able to help you guys think through this subject together, and 15 00:01:21.219 --> 00:01:25.819 it's the subject of abortion and light of race relations and just with all the 16 00:01:25.939 --> 00:01:27.900 things that we've got going on in our nation with the kill think of George 17 00:01:27.939 --> 00:01:34.010 Floyd and and all the other issues that surround this. We really thought that 18 00:01:34.129 --> 00:01:37.890 we need to talk about abortion in light of those things. And who better 19 00:01:37.969 --> 00:01:41.930 to talk about this with then Melissa Polu. She's been involved in prolife ministry 20 00:01:41.969 --> 00:01:46.209 for a long time. When I first got involved in prolife ministry she was 21 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:49.519 involved and we've known each other for a long time. Heard and her husband 22 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.640 Devin just been a blessing to the Ministry of Cities for life and so we 23 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.319 wanted to bring her own and we also have Vicky on the line. Just 24 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.040 so you guys know. We're on a skype call here, so the audio 25 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:04.590 might not be exactly what it normally is, but we hope it will still 26 00:02:04.590 --> 00:02:07.509 be a blessing you guys. But yes, say hey Vicki, hey there 27 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:12.229 everyone. Hopefully you can hear Vicky well, and then just introduce yourself real 28 00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.590 quick, Melissa, and what you Endevin are doing there on the college campus? 29 00:02:15.340 --> 00:02:20.219 Absolutely so I'm my name is Melissa Pellu, my husband's Devon. We 30 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:24.340 are the chapter directors at went from University and rock kill, South Carolina, 31 00:02:24.979 --> 00:02:30.770 with a ministry callrational Christie, which is Latin for the reason of Christ. 32 00:02:30.810 --> 00:02:38.449 So we do apologetics evangelism ministry, where we are training college students to understand 33 00:02:38.490 --> 00:02:40.729 more about what they believe why they believe it. So we deal with the 34 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:46.120 number of different issues associated with a lot of the ideas, secular ideas that 35 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:51.759 are kind of infiltrated the college campus, and then also evangelized students of other 36 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:58.120 worldviews, whether they are Muslim or skeptic, a fist, what have you. 37 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:00.710 So we deal with quite a bit of issues related to, you know, 38 00:03:00.830 --> 00:03:06.550 God's existence and how we contrast the Bible, but also these ethical issues 39 00:03:06.789 --> 00:03:09.710 like abortion, we deal with quite a bit. So our training on the 40 00:03:09.789 --> 00:03:14.860 sidewalk has really been beneficial. Just, you know, being on the sidewalk 41 00:03:14.900 --> 00:03:21.860 and talking to abortion minded women and families has been very beneficial as we're communicating 42 00:03:21.979 --> 00:03:25.340 how to have those conversations and, in the pro defending the pro life issue 43 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:30.650 on the college campus with students who many times don't affirm the sanctity of human 44 00:03:30.729 --> 00:03:36.250 life. So we are very thankful. You can look us at Rashio Christie 45 00:03:36.250 --> 00:03:39.930 at went at university and we're just blessed to be here today. Yeah, 46 00:03:39.969 --> 00:03:45.719 appreciate you coming on and we did a podcast a couple of months ago with 47 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.360 Devon talking about some issues with pro life apologetics and things like that. It 48 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.879 was real blessing to us, real blessing to have him join us on that. 49 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:59.669 But we've got you on and anybody guess why we would have Melissa own 50 00:03:59.909 --> 00:04:02.110 when we're talking about race relations? Why would we have you on Melyssa? 51 00:04:02.990 --> 00:04:06.949 Well, if we were on video, I mean if you evident, but 52 00:04:08.550 --> 00:04:12.699 I am indeed black and and, like you said, being involved in pro 53 00:04:12.819 --> 00:04:16.740 life activism for so long on the sidewalk and just in different areas, some 54 00:04:17.139 --> 00:04:23.019 doing conferences and trainings and things like that, you know having that that experience, 55 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:28.170 but it is not a commonality. It's not very common to have a 56 00:04:28.610 --> 00:04:31.449 lot of black prolife activists. So I think that that's that might be why 57 00:04:31.610 --> 00:04:33.930 you brought me on. I'm not sure, though. Yeah. Well, 58 00:04:34.009 --> 00:04:38.370 first and foremost we brought you on because you're a you're a godly woman that 59 00:04:38.449 --> 00:04:42.199 has a godly perspective. So that's the first thing. But you happen to 60 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:46.800 be a black woman and you have some experience in dealing with race from a 61 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:50.240 perspective that I don't have and that Vicky don't have, and so we thought 62 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:54.110 to bring you in this conversation because, yeah, like you said, there 63 00:04:54.310 --> 00:04:59.750 is a unfortunately a scarcity of black individuals within the pro life movement, even 64 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.269 though it's becoming more and more from what I see. Is that what you're 65 00:05:02.269 --> 00:05:05.990 seeing to yeah, I think people are starting to at least think about the 66 00:05:06.029 --> 00:05:11.060 issue a lot more. But I'm really been blessed to see on the Saturday 67 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:14.660 mornings with the prayer walks, a lot of black churches in the Charlotte area 68 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:20.420 really becoming active and participating. So from that perspective I'm really encouraged. Yeah, 69 00:05:21.009 --> 00:05:26.769 sure as well. So you know, like I said, before we 70 00:05:26.850 --> 00:05:30.089 get started with this, I'm going to ask you some questions. It's going 71 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:31.970 to be real relational and I just want you to talk. I want you 72 00:05:32.009 --> 00:05:36.160 to share your heart. I want people to understand from a black woman's perspective 73 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:41.399 the issue of abortion and dealing with, you know, race and and dealing 74 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.839 with abortion and light of race and all of that, and I think it 75 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.199 will help us to understand because, you know, let's face it, lessen, 76 00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.589 you've been out there, Vicky, you've been out there for many years 77 00:05:49.709 --> 00:05:54.149 too, and you seen the majority of the women and going into the the 78 00:05:54.230 --> 00:05:59.110 trabe abortion clinic are unfortunately black women that are going in, and so it's 79 00:05:59.110 --> 00:06:03.269 a reality that we deal with on a regular basis, dealing with rays, 80 00:06:03.379 --> 00:06:09.100 dealing with women who are not the same color as us and trying to see 81 00:06:09.100 --> 00:06:13.819 from their perspective. Trying to see me from a woman's perspective is really hard, 82 00:06:13.899 --> 00:06:15.699 but trying to see from a black woman's perspective is even harder, you 83 00:06:15.740 --> 00:06:20.529 know. So we want to get some perspective from you and I do want 84 00:06:20.529 --> 00:06:25.290 to talk about kind of the larger picture of things, and that's where I 85 00:06:25.370 --> 00:06:28.410 want to start, if you don't mind. I don't want to start with 86 00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:33.759 the idea of systematic racism or systemic racism. Is this in your opinion and 87 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:40.600 from your experience? Is this reality in our country? Yeah, so that 88 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.319 is, you know, a very hot button issue right, systemic racism, 89 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.189 and you know, Struck, you know, are some people call it structural 90 00:06:49.389 --> 00:06:56.470 racism or institutional racism. Those are kind of synonyms and I just to give 91 00:06:56.670 --> 00:07:02.459 a general popular definition of what we're talking about for those who are not aware. 92 00:07:03.100 --> 00:07:06.819 When we're talking about racism, you know, the center of racism in 93 00:07:06.939 --> 00:07:13.819 terms of, you know, individuals who have racist intent and motives, and 94 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:20.209 they prejudge people and they have racist attitudes towards someone else or attitude superiority based 95 00:07:20.250 --> 00:07:25.889 on in color. So we would recognize that as racism, I think all 96 00:07:25.970 --> 00:07:32.319 people would. And then systemic racism, the general popular definition would be something 97 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:41.759 along the lines of the social or economic, political, educational legal systems as 98 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:47.069 well, that they would say that those systems in our country are designed in 99 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:58.269 a systematic way, of foundational way, to oppress minorities into somehow grant or 100 00:07:58.550 --> 00:08:03.180 set white people up for success or some sort of too in a superior way. 101 00:08:03.699 --> 00:08:11.220 So the systems systemically, the systems of the country are all designed to 102 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:18.370 basically oppressed black people and it's just and so it from the perspective of someone 103 00:08:18.410 --> 00:08:20.769 who holds to that, not myself, I'm just saying from the perspective of 104 00:08:20.889 --> 00:08:24.889 someone who holds it out. Sure, yeah, when they look at the 105 00:08:24.970 --> 00:08:31.720 world or they look at opportunities, they would say they would feel that they're 106 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:37.200 all there's a minority, would feel like they are set up for failure from 107 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.750 the moment that they're born, that they're not on equal footing or a equal 108 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:46.070 set up. Think that things are not equal, equally set up for minorities 109 00:08:46.110 --> 00:08:52.190 and white people. So part of the and I'll tell you that that a 110 00:08:52.429 --> 00:08:54.389 question is hard to answer, kind of kind of a loaded question, and 111 00:08:54.509 --> 00:08:56.539 it was, it was intended to be. I wanted to kind of get 112 00:08:56.620 --> 00:09:01.379 your reaction on this. Yeah, yeah, and and I was just I 113 00:09:01.460 --> 00:09:07.820 want to pack watch hard to answer because there are so there's just their various 114 00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:09.929 definitions, even I mean if you go to us, you know, to 115 00:09:11.090 --> 00:09:15.929 some scholarship and academic and a sex on the seculo campus, versus some of 116 00:09:16.009 --> 00:09:18.250 the popular definitions that are in a lot of the books that are are out 117 00:09:18.370 --> 00:09:24.639 now. But the and that's why I think that the issue itself, it's 118 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:30.840 so it's so ambiguous, this idea of systemic racism, that I don't think 119 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:35.720 it's something that we can that a person can hold tightly onto and a firm 120 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.509 in a dogmatic way. So I know it's not a yes or no answer, 121 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:45.990 but yeah, it's ex actually kind of what I was what I was 122 00:09:46.029 --> 00:09:48.429 aiming at. Vicky, you want to pipe in on this. Well, 123 00:09:48.629 --> 00:09:52.059 no, I actually I totally agree with you the list said, because I've 124 00:09:52.059 --> 00:09:56.980 been really grappling and and I just wrote a note to a friend who is 125 00:09:56.220 --> 00:10:01.700 very much involved in in, I guess, eradicating systemic racism and said the 126 00:10:01.940 --> 00:10:07.059 more I read, actually the more confused then it is. Right, it 127 00:10:07.570 --> 00:10:11.490 is a confusing issue an area, because what you're looking at, basically, 128 00:10:11.889 --> 00:10:16.409 it mean it's a social theory. Right. So with theories what you're doing 129 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:20.559 is you're looking at data and you're looking at different things. And so what 130 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:26.840 the person who's saying that the systemic racist social theorist? They're looking at disparities, 131 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.879 right, so they're saying there's economic disparities between whites and blacks, there's 132 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.870 educational disparities, there's private property disparities, right, so they're they're looking at 133 00:10:39.029 --> 00:10:43.830 those disparities and saying, well, it has there has to be some systemic 134 00:10:43.990 --> 00:10:48.230 reason that that is happening. But this does the the problem when you just 135 00:10:48.710 --> 00:10:54.019 when you just narrow down to that, is that you you that you don't 136 00:10:54.059 --> 00:11:00.379 take into account other factors, things like marriage, right we I mean even 137 00:11:00.379 --> 00:11:05.210 when you look at economics with black children, if they are raised in a 138 00:11:05.330 --> 00:11:11.690 two parent family, there's only about a seven percent poverty rate. Okay, 139 00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:16.769 and that that's and you compare that with white children who are raised in a 140 00:11:16.850 --> 00:11:20.799 two parent home, there's about a twenty two percent poverty rate. Okay, 141 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.600 now that's so amazing statistic. I have never heard that. MMM. So, 142 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:30.679 yeah, black children raised in two parent homes typically don't or not impoverished. 143 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:33.750 And so that and I think that. So that's that's what I'm saying. 144 00:11:33.750 --> 00:11:39.429 It's trying. It's hard to blame or to pin these disparities solely on 145 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:46.870 this systemic issues when there are these personal issues, these individual issues. They're's 146 00:11:46.950 --> 00:11:50.740 these there's cultural issues on with, you know, again with marriage and with 147 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:56.779 audio, how think, mindsets and that choices. It kind of it does 148 00:11:56.220 --> 00:12:03.490 it. It does does remove personal responsibility from the equation. Right, so 149 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:07.370 you're able to say that it's I can't achieve this or I can't do this 150 00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:11.570 where I'm doing this because things are just set up and stacked against me. 151 00:12:13.090 --> 00:12:16.039 And you know, things, when we really look at it, we don't 152 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:22.879 want to disparage. Think like if we're going to say that all these privilege, 153 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:26.600 like privilege, for instance, that there's things, I mean marriage privilege, 154 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.110 like I brought up right, there's privilege when you're point into a family 155 00:12:31.269 --> 00:12:35.590 with two parents. So we don't want to take but we don't want to 156 00:12:35.710 --> 00:12:39.549 destroy those in like marriage, for instance, right, because there's this species. 157 00:12:39.629 --> 00:12:45.100 Right. So it's just a very abstract thing to me. Now they're 158 00:12:45.220 --> 00:12:50.580 they're there. Can I believe the answer is to just look at individual policies 159 00:12:50.059 --> 00:12:56.139 and to see if there are policies that do harm, you know, black 160 00:12:56.259 --> 00:13:01.450 people, whether intentional or unintentional. I think if you take that then it's 161 00:13:01.529 --> 00:13:07.610 just it's more defined, it's more based on real life and data and things 162 00:13:07.649 --> 00:13:11.769 like that. But if, yeah, you're just this whole this, this 163 00:13:11.970 --> 00:13:16.679 whole idea, that that's what's happened, it is take this whole idea and 164 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:22.879 we're looking at all these asperities without looking at individual just maybe individual policies and 165 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.190 things like that that that made need to be changed. But in general, 166 00:13:26.750 --> 00:13:31.389 I just I don't hold firmly to the idea of system and racism just because 167 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:37.830 it's ambiguous and I'd rather look at individual areas where there may be some some 168 00:13:39.350 --> 00:13:41.059 you know, some things that are unfair, and deal with it from that 169 00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:46.620 perspective. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I did want to touch on that 170 00:13:46.659 --> 00:13:50.940 again as a big picture question, because it's a question that a lot of 171 00:13:50.299 --> 00:13:52.860 you know. We hear it again. It's like a buzz word in the 172 00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:56.730 media systemic racism and this idea of systemic racism. And you know, when 173 00:13:56.769 --> 00:14:01.210 certain statistics and certain things are laid out to me, I'm like, well, 174 00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:03.009 yeah, there's a there's a system in place. It seems to be 175 00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:09.169 bent against minorities, against black people, and you know, but then you 176 00:14:09.210 --> 00:14:13.000 look at other statistics it's like like what you shared, it's like and, 177 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.000 all things equal, there's not this systemic racism. And so it's it's really 178 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.960 confusing and it's really hard for me, again as a white man, to 179 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:24.240 come from that perspective and to see that. And so, yeah, I 180 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.470 wanted to hear your perspective, but now just to kind of bring it into 181 00:14:26.669 --> 00:14:31.309 to what we really want to talk about, which is the issue of abortion 182 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:35.350 and racings, because there's no doubt you mentioned it when we first started. 183 00:14:35.509 --> 00:14:41.700 The Sin of racism, the sin of racism exists absolutely. I think you 184 00:14:41.700 --> 00:14:46.179 would probably agree that it's going to exist until Jesus returns, no matter how 185 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:50.940 much we try to fight against it. It's like any other sin and it 186 00:14:50.059 --> 00:14:52.970 does have its own unique issues that it causes. Of course, I'm not 187 00:14:54.049 --> 00:14:56.330 trying to marginalize that as just any other sin. It has issues that it 188 00:14:56.409 --> 00:15:03.169 makes but, like every sin, only Jesus Christ is gonna Remedy that. 189 00:15:03.210 --> 00:15:07.919 That's that's a reality and I appreciate you saying that, but it does at 190 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:15.840 least the issue of race and abortion do come up in a lot of conversations 191 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.759 and and, just like I said, on a daytoday basis in our outreach, 192 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.789 we deal with young black women going into the abortion centers and I've been 193 00:15:22.870 --> 00:15:28.190 called a racist so many time I can't even count. And I'm sure you, 194 00:15:28.350 --> 00:15:31.230 Melissa, and you can crackt me if I'm wrong, seet out there 195 00:15:31.590 --> 00:15:35.860 at the abortion planning you probably been called a racist or called with it whatever. 196 00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:39.980 Yeah, the names. Yeah, that I want to repeat. But, 197 00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:43.340 yeah, sell out things like that, of course. Yeah, yeah, 198 00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.820 that's kind of kind of funny the way that people just kind of throw 199 00:15:46.860 --> 00:15:52.490 these terms out there. But how how do the issues in your mind of 200 00:15:52.129 --> 00:16:00.330 racism and abortion intersect in the University of America? All right, so again 201 00:16:00.610 --> 00:16:06.200 we have from the racism exists, and so we because the hardest sinful right, 202 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:11.399 we love darkness rather than light, and as long as we are in 203 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.039 the condition, we can, you know, as long as we're human, 204 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.830 we can have sinful attitudes and racism is a sinful way of thinking and looking 205 00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:22.110 at the world now and know and we look at the issue of abortion, 206 00:16:22.750 --> 00:16:29.549 we look at the reality that abortion kills unborn onoraty children at a much higher 207 00:16:29.590 --> 00:16:34.340 rate then the national average. And we're talking about a we're talking about minority 208 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:42.779 population where you have sixteen million black children who have died due to abortion. 209 00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:49.610 We're talking about the number one killer of the black community, where it's five 210 00:16:49.690 --> 00:16:55.730 times higher for abortion to occur in a black family than a white family. 211 00:16:55.850 --> 00:16:59.970 So when we look at the history of abortion and we bring it so looking 212 00:17:00.049 --> 00:17:03.480 just looking at those that of abortion now being the number one killer black community, 213 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:08.240 we look at the history with with the abortion movement in America, of 214 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:15.509 course, Miss Margaret Sanger was the proponent and she had very her thoughts were 215 00:17:15.950 --> 00:17:22.230 based on a eugenics model and Eugenics, and I know you have had talked 216 00:17:22.230 --> 00:17:26.150 to devil with that in a previous show. A eugenics model is basically design 217 00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:30.700 where you look at humans based on their their potential, their function, what 218 00:17:30.859 --> 00:17:37.380 they can what they can give to society and some people are considered non useful 219 00:17:37.619 --> 00:17:42.339 and that in that way, and so black people because of all of the 220 00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:48.450 you know, the slavery and all civil rights, all these all these things 221 00:17:48.450 --> 00:17:52.970 that we're going through, the largely uneducated black population. They were included in 222 00:17:53.170 --> 00:18:00.440 that eugenics model of those that Margaret Singer deemed unworthy. The neger project, 223 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.920 I think it was one thousand nine hundred and thirty two, was aimed at 224 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.960 the black community, where the pastors were encouraging the use of birth control and 225 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:17.630 and that. So population control is was basically the idea. And if we 226 00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:21.430 look at the numbers we have, we see a population control issue. So 227 00:18:21.589 --> 00:18:26.660 when a population targeted because of their skin color, that is racism right. 228 00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:34.019 And we look at the presence of the abortion clinics in poor and minority areas, 229 00:18:34.579 --> 00:18:41.450 that is a marketing tool that is designed to normalize abortion and to target 230 00:18:41.569 --> 00:18:48.009 that community. When you place a business in a certain community, you are 231 00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:52.569 targeting that community. Is there for a purpose. And so the fact that 232 00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:57.240 the the roots of abortion were race were based on a eugenics model that targeted 233 00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:03.079 black people for Population Control. And then the fact that we now have force 234 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.440 planets in majority of black neighborhoods, we have now abortionist in number one and 235 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:15.109 killer of black people. It is completely tied to racism because of the targeting 236 00:19:15.630 --> 00:19:21.269 based on skin color. Right it also, I like what you said the 237 00:19:21.990 --> 00:19:27.940 about the root issue, because I think the root issue is very similar in 238 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:36.500 the killing of the unborn and racism. In both cases the value, of 239 00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:44.609 the value drinchic human value people group is is questioned, is put into Questian 240 00:19:44.849 --> 00:19:49.289 and and as soon as that happens, then you can harm that class of 241 00:19:49.329 --> 00:19:53.440 humans because you feel that their value is less than yours. And that's true 242 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:57.599 for the unborn and that's true for the minorities. That has been true throughout 243 00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:06.440 all who through right dehumanization of population, whether where there's the US, whether 244 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.630 it's the blocks, you know now it's babies. And one of the sad, 245 00:20:11.029 --> 00:20:15.990 sad realities is when we look at civil rights and we look at oppression 246 00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:21.269 against black people, and you know, it's a I mean what the black 247 00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:25.140 population has been through in this country from forgery years, you know, from 248 00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:27.700 slave before under years to where we are now. It's just remarkable in my 249 00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:33.579 opinion. You know, it's just amazing what God has done through many people 250 00:20:33.619 --> 00:20:37.250 who fought for rights and who stood, but oldly and courageously, for those 251 00:20:37.289 --> 00:20:41.369 rights. But what you find it when people are oppressed for so long, 252 00:20:41.529 --> 00:20:51.559 many times they become oppressors themselves, and this is sometimes very unconsciously because of 253 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.000 a sense of a loss of power and things of that nature. So we 254 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.799 now see black women, black families killing their own children, and this is 255 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:06.990 an act of oppression because, like you said, Vicki the dehumanization of that 256 00:21:07.269 --> 00:21:11.069 child in the womb, and that is what allows a part. That is 257 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:17.349 what's that is a a a process. That will you know that Lee city 258 00:21:17.430 --> 00:21:22.859 children's death. So it's a very sad reality. That what happens, you 259 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:29.220 know, from the racist attitudes and turning the community and then people internal as 260 00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:34.170 it all right and they themselves become the oppressors. That that is historically happened 261 00:21:34.210 --> 00:21:40.690 in pretty much every other civilization as well. Wow, right, yeah, 262 00:21:40.730 --> 00:21:45.009 that's Melissa. That's that's a unique perspective there that you bring that up, 263 00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:48.960 and that kind of brings me to another one of the points that I want 264 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.880 to touch on, because what you just said, and you know I have 265 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.359 to process it. I take your word for it and I believe you're telling 266 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.839 me the truth. For sure, I have to processes, to think about 267 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.069 it, but even if I did fully agree with what you just said. 268 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.309 Can I even voice that? And so what I'm asking is, you know, 269 00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:10.990 is is it the place of, you know, for a pro life 270 00:22:11.069 --> 00:22:15.230 white man like myself to say things like what you just said or to point 271 00:22:15.269 --> 00:22:18.579 out some of the issues with plan parenthood, you know, with Margaret saying? 272 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.500 I mean we got the toppling of statues across this country of confederate soldiers 273 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.299 and all that. We're not going to get into that subject. But as 274 00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:29.140 I look at that, I'm thinking, man, they should be toppling the 275 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:33.410 statues of Margaret Singer and getting these things. It's just like provable as a 276 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:37.009 racist right. But is it mob is it my place, is it Vicki's 277 00:22:37.049 --> 00:22:41.690 places as a white pro lifers to address those issues? And then, if 278 00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:45.519 it is our plays, how do we address those issues without it just being 279 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.319 a landmine? You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean it's I 280 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.240 mean it is a difficult area to to navigate through, you know, because 281 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.880 you do want to be sensitive. But Truth is truth, right, the 282 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:02.670 word of God is is unchanging. It is our standard, and so my 283 00:23:02.950 --> 00:23:07.630 shortance would be yes, you should address that, speak on that, talk 284 00:23:07.710 --> 00:23:14.180 about that reality, because it is a sinful the ascent of abortion it has. 285 00:23:14.259 --> 00:23:19.059 So it's the effects or self profound on the black community and so yes, 286 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:23.900 I encourage my white brothers and sisters to talk about that and to not 287 00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:29.009 in to not back down from God's truth. Now, as far as talking 288 00:23:29.049 --> 00:23:32.490 about it and how we do it, I think that that is is maybe 289 00:23:33.170 --> 00:23:37.210 more more of the the question denial of how do we do that? You 290 00:23:37.329 --> 00:23:41.480 know, yeah, I guess the context that I'm speaking to is, you 291 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.759 know, I think there's a national context, certainly for you pro life leaders, 292 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.000 for politicians even to be speaking about this, but the context primarily I'm 293 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.680 speaking to is at the abortion center with an abortion minded mom as I'm sharing 294 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.109 some of the statistics and some of the things because, you know, you 295 00:23:57.230 --> 00:24:00.470 get into those heated conversations, they want to come over and set you straight 296 00:24:02.029 --> 00:24:07.309 and sometimes I almost in well, I'm actually very careful and walking on eggshells 297 00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:11.099 if I'd bring up the issues of the fact that that abortion clinic is located 298 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:15.740 in a minority neighborhood, that there's also another abortion clinic just around the corner 299 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:18.460 and that you're not going to find those abortion clinics in a white neighborhood, 300 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.579 he is not going to find it. So I guess that's more the context 301 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:25.849 I'm speaking of. Is it my place to say that? How do I 302 00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:29.890 need to address that and not make it into just a racial fight, because 303 00:24:29.890 --> 00:24:32.529 that's not what I'm trying to get into with an abortionnt of mom, you 304 00:24:32.609 --> 00:24:34.250 know, all right, right, you're at that point. You don't mean 305 00:24:34.250 --> 00:24:37.799 you're not trying to get into the deeper issues of race and race relations. 306 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:41.240 Right, you want that. You want her to see that that child is 307 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.799 worthy of life and that God design that child and that she should not murder 308 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.759 her child. So again, I think just and and and for being on 309 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.069 the sidewalk, maybe I can, I can share some of the things I've 310 00:24:53.109 --> 00:24:57.150 heard that I thought were insensitive. Yeah, yeah, please do that. 311 00:24:57.349 --> 00:25:03.910 No, yeah, just saying that, you know, your black baby matters. 312 00:25:03.109 --> 00:25:07.339 You're a black baby this and you're a black baby that. I think 313 00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:10.980 we need to be careful about saying that. I mean in this culture, 314 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:15.539 I mean Godi, people are so triggered, you know, and we with 315 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:18.059 everything going on, we need to maybe be careful about that. And just 316 00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:23.369 even with you know, black, black unborn lives matter, just with that 317 00:25:23.529 --> 00:25:26.809 whole thing with black lives matter, because it's such a power, you know, 318 00:25:27.329 --> 00:25:32.450 it's such a convincing movement to a lot of people. It can that 319 00:25:32.569 --> 00:25:34.960 can trigger some things for people where they just shut down and they're not going 320 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.039 to talk to you or they're going to make certain assumptions about you. I 321 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:44.000 think for those issues it is better dealt with in an ongoing situation, like 322 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:47.799 if you're if you have someone that you're engaging, you know car that you 323 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.430 that you stopped and that you want it in your talking to them. You 324 00:25:51.509 --> 00:25:56.390 can talk to them about how this place is is a place that is, 325 00:25:56.309 --> 00:26:00.190 you know, as a white supremacist tool. You know, I think in 326 00:26:00.309 --> 00:26:03.430 a conversation that's very good. I don't think that it should be the first 327 00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:07.259 thing you bring up, but I think I think it does have its place 328 00:26:07.579 --> 00:26:12.859 because ultimately this is a humanity issue and so in that that's one thing too. 329 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:18.059 I think that even in the within the prolife community, we don't we 330 00:26:18.690 --> 00:26:22.049 with the George Floyd and the Brianna Taylor and the modd Aubrey. We don't. 331 00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:26.450 I don't think. I don't think the answers just to deflect to olbortion 332 00:26:26.609 --> 00:26:29.970 use. The first is number one killer, you know, and those case 333 00:26:30.250 --> 00:26:33.440 is automatically because I think we have an opportunity to say that was wrong what 334 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:37.359 happened to George Floyd, you know, for that police officer to kill him 335 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.599 that way. I mean we watching that video and this man asking for his 336 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.240 mom, you know, regardless of this past choices or that, but asking 337 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.150 for his mom and being murdered right there on a video in front of us. 338 00:26:48.670 --> 00:26:52.269 That's difficult. So I think we can say, you know, that 339 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:57.710 those things are horrible and that God does not approve inappropriate situation. Is Not 340 00:26:57.829 --> 00:27:03.019 every racial incident. Obviously is a is a is an issue of racism that's 341 00:27:03.140 --> 00:27:06.380 reported in the media, but verify will issues. We want to show that 342 00:27:06.500 --> 00:27:11.019 we care right that the that we care about humanity and just it's such a 343 00:27:11.220 --> 00:27:15.809 touchy issue. But I just think sometimes if you're on if you're on a 344 00:27:15.930 --> 00:27:22.049 microphone and just talking about race or doing a race education class, isn't necessarily 345 00:27:22.289 --> 00:27:26.369 the best time, at least right now. Yeah, but but I think 346 00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:32.359 talking about humanity itself, I think that is a great way to reach people, 347 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:37.920 you know, because the idea what media is reinforcing in a lot of 348 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:41.599 the meet the books now and everything is that. You know, white people 349 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.950 don't see you as a person. Why? People don't see it as equal. 350 00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:48.069 You know, white people are part of this system. This you know, 351 00:27:48.230 --> 00:27:52.150 when we talk about systemic racism, white people are part of that whole 352 00:27:52.269 --> 00:27:56.269 system that's holding you down. They don't care about you and they just want 353 00:27:56.309 --> 00:28:00.740 to oppress you and they think that they're better that you. So you awhere 354 00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:06.740 that this is a monset that is being that a person not not not necessarily 355 00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:08.180 all the time, a hundred percent of the time, but many times a 356 00:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.890 black person will that's their perception coming to the situation, right, and so 357 00:28:14.170 --> 00:28:17.529 these they pull in and they see a bunch of white people there. There's 358 00:28:17.569 --> 00:28:22.730 got a we gotta somehow connect with their humanity, and that's really important because 359 00:28:22.890 --> 00:28:26.599 we want to show them that they're that we're all equal, and so is 360 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.200 that child. You know, right and now I did, all made in 361 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.359 the image of God, and I think that I'm uniting and one of the 362 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.559 most powerful things we can say in terms of connecting as human beings. We 363 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:42.269 are all made in God's image. Slogans that I use now even are black 364 00:28:42.349 --> 00:28:47.869 lives are sacred. You know, black lives matter to God. I think 365 00:28:48.230 --> 00:28:52.349 those, you know, even signs that say things like that or hell, 366 00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:59.140 I figure helpful, you know, because it shows that we care about the 367 00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:03.099 sanctity of all human life. You know. So, yeah, but it 368 00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:06.980 is difficult, Daniel. You know it's even difficult for me times to talk 369 00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:10.609 of what might be easier for me to talk about it then maybe for yourself. 370 00:29:11.609 --> 00:29:14.769 So well, you know, I'll tell you just from experience, in 371 00:29:14.849 --> 00:29:19.210 which you know these rays as much, because, you know, recently especially, 372 00:29:19.329 --> 00:29:25.039 I have stayed away from any conversations about race, about the fact that 373 00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:27.000 more black babies are killed by abortion that are born. I mean, I 374 00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:32.720 don't I don't even say that commonly now as I'm talking to abortion minded women 375 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:36.359 or calling out there. I just don't make race an issue because to me 376 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.109 really it's not an issue. You know what I mean? As far as 377 00:29:38.309 --> 00:29:42.509 like, whether you're killing your black child or your white child or your Hispanic 378 00:29:42.549 --> 00:29:45.349 Child, whatever, you're killing the child and it's wrong, right. But 379 00:29:47.269 --> 00:29:51.829 as much as I am that ye other meet is reinforcing this this racial division 380 00:29:52.069 --> 00:29:55.660 over and over and over and over, and so we need we have to 381 00:29:55.740 --> 00:30:00.259 find a way to uny and bring these people to the understanding that we're that 382 00:30:00.420 --> 00:30:03.180 we're all created in the image of God, you know. So I think 383 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:10.529 that we want to communicate that's going to resonate in this world that's so divided, 384 00:30:10.769 --> 00:30:15.009 you know. Yeah, right, I know. Just recently, I'd 385 00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:19.089 say since the George Floyd murder and all this racial tension and stuff, it 386 00:30:19.210 --> 00:30:23.319 seems like I've heard more and more of the people walking into the abortion center 387 00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.599 of accusations of racism toward myself. Yeah, I'm talking to me white boy 388 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.000 out there. You know. Would you say that's case? Vicky? We 389 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.670 heard it today. There was a change where we were being called racist because 390 00:30:37.710 --> 00:30:41.150 we were offering help. I don't know why we were. We certainly had 391 00:30:41.230 --> 00:30:45.309 not made any any racist remark, but but that's where it it started off 392 00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.589 asn't saying, of course, you've heard this a thousand times, you should 393 00:30:48.630 --> 00:30:53.259 not be judging you're judging us, and then ultimately that we were racist in 394 00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:59.980 because, as we were judging what we're predominantly black women at that point walking 395 00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.809 into the abortion center. Whilst to be aware of you know, the the 396 00:31:04.490 --> 00:31:10.690 number one best selling the New York Times right now is white fragility by Robin 397 00:31:10.730 --> 00:31:17.210 D'Angelo. And she's a sosteologist who basically says that all white people are racist. 398 00:31:17.450 --> 00:31:22.519 Okay, so, whether subconsciously, whether you realize it or not, 399 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:30.160 your whiteness is blinded you to your racism and that you can come to repent. 400 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.349 Not Well, she doesn't call it repentance, but you can come to 401 00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:37.990 realize that your whiteness is, in a sense evil. And so this is 402 00:31:38.109 --> 00:31:44.269 the number one best seller. Okay, wow, and white woman. Okay. 403 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:48.299 And so he's saying that white people are racist. Just from for you 404 00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:51.819 to say that you're not a racist, it's just your white fragility showing, 405 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:56.420 which is you're trying to so and you're doing I mean, there's nothing you 406 00:31:56.460 --> 00:32:00.380 can say. You're due to prod you, you are instantly labeled in. 407 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:05.210 There is there's no, no way out of the rock. Yeah, that's 408 00:32:05.250 --> 00:32:08.369 what so, Melissa. Are you saying then, just for for the listeners 409 00:32:08.410 --> 00:32:13.809 who are because a lot of our listeners are daily out at the abortion centers 410 00:32:13.849 --> 00:32:16.039 and that's a lot of our listener base or sidebaught counsels and stuff like that. 411 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.920 So would you say, then, the best thing to do in those 412 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.839 situations where, let's say, an abortion minded mom walking in who this happens 413 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.559 to be black, yields back at you and says you're a racist. So 414 00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.190 the best response to that would just be to ignore that and talk about humanities. 415 00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:37.589 That that what happened, because if you defend go and defend yourself, 416 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:44.740 that is seen is and in terms of modern theory, critical race theory and 417 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:49.140 things like that, that is seen as you're showing your racism or because, 418 00:32:49.180 --> 00:32:54.059 yeah, this is why you'll see people in these videos or these talks or 419 00:32:54.579 --> 00:33:00.250 even even people, even friends, Christian Friends of mine, which is Sade. 420 00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:04.289 You'll see them kind of innocence, repent of their whiteness, right, 421 00:33:04.849 --> 00:33:08.609 they are so sorry for they don't I don't. I don't know if they 422 00:33:08.650 --> 00:33:12.730 know what they're sorry for, but there's just they're sorry and they're repentant to 423 00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:17.720 what people right. So for that is seen as a you them. That 424 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:23.039 is seen is a good thing because they are their acknowledgy and they're welcome up 425 00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:28.630 to understand their whiteness is evil. Okay. Now, when you defend it, 426 00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.589 it shows that you are you your fragile and this sort of thing. 427 00:33:32.869 --> 00:33:37.269 So, yeah, I would so, regardless if you try to defend yourself 428 00:33:37.390 --> 00:33:40.980 or not, you're still racist. You know, it's kind of darned if 429 00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:45.779 you do. darned if you don't send exactly to get that would be yeah. 430 00:33:45.940 --> 00:33:52.940 So just focus on humanity, you know, try to speak through that 431 00:33:52.099 --> 00:33:57.569 that you care about that individual. Yeah, and those things. That's all 432 00:33:57.650 --> 00:34:00.369 you can do in a situations, I believe. Yeah, absolutely. One 433 00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:05.089 of the things just came to mind is I'm not out there as a white 434 00:34:05.130 --> 00:34:07.929 man. I'm out there is a Christian. That's primarily why I'm out there. 435 00:34:08.409 --> 00:34:10.960 If I wasn't a Christian I wouldn't be out at the abortion center at 436 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.559 all. I wouldn't care about those babies or those women or anything. So 437 00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:19.719 yeah, I mean we're speaking out of our love for God, our love 438 00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.159 for people. So appreciate you. Appreciate you saying that and sharing all of 439 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:28.510 that. Point people to Christ in those situations because if you get if you 440 00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:31.230 get caught up in that, it's you're not going to be able to have 441 00:34:31.309 --> 00:34:35.750 a fruitful of change. It ends up it's becoming a distraction. Any mean, 442 00:34:35.909 --> 00:34:39.139 I'll just say there's a temptation as a yeah, you young black woman 443 00:34:39.260 --> 00:34:43.139 is walking into the abortion center and she calls out to me and calls me 444 00:34:43.179 --> 00:34:46.860 a racist. There's a temptation in me to just lay out the statistics and 445 00:34:47.059 --> 00:34:51.739 talk about plan parenthoods history, talk about market saying all that. But, 446 00:34:52.099 --> 00:34:54.130 like you said, it just becomes a distraction, it becomes a really a 447 00:34:54.289 --> 00:35:00.170 conversation that's not immediately helpful, even though it could be helpful if we sit 448 00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:05.250 down and talk at link and that scenario. It's just not help yeah, 449 00:35:05.329 --> 00:35:09.159 here I hear you say in that that's that's good advice. For sure that 450 00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:13.440 helps you. Yeah, but yeah, if you if you just become with, 451 00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.800 like said, some of the modern literature that's coming out now on system 452 00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:22.670 system racism and white pullage a thing like that, you really it's it's very 453 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:29.949 deep and so you're not going to come to the resolution in those quick conversations, 454 00:35:29.989 --> 00:35:32.510 I don't believe. Yeah, well, I want us to shift the 455 00:35:32.590 --> 00:35:37.820 conversation just a little bit here, if we can, and talk about pro 456 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:42.340 life issues in the black community and just your experience with that, because a 457 00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:46.820 lot of folks don't understand why the black community, from my perspective, because 458 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:52.969 it has disproportionally abortion, is disproportionately affected the black community. A lot of 459 00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:55.889 folks don't understand why these issues aren't addressed in the black community. Or maybe 460 00:35:55.889 --> 00:35:59.369 they are and we're just not hearing it, obviously, because we're not, 461 00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:02.849 you know, involved on regular basis within the black community. whateverything. You 462 00:36:02.929 --> 00:36:07.360 know, put air quots there, because, I mean we're talking about different 463 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.320 communities and segments of communities. But within the black community are these visions talked 464 00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.079 about? And if they're not talked about, then why? And if they 465 00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:21.269 are, how are they addressed? Yeah, I find from I mean from 466 00:36:21.389 --> 00:36:23.989 the political groups. You know, one of the that is a big promise 467 00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:29.550 of politics, right, because you have your groups like the Naacp and the 468 00:36:29.670 --> 00:36:35.699 congressional black concus in these who are basically very inner time with Plant parenthood and 469 00:36:36.460 --> 00:36:42.659 these mutual relationships, and so for the black community it's kind of it's like, 470 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.820 Oh, at that date it's okay for them, you know, they're 471 00:36:45.139 --> 00:36:49.050 they're great, will plan firehoods. I can be okay plan a parenthood. 472 00:36:49.130 --> 00:36:52.730 But I think that the portion issue in general is not talked about in our 473 00:36:52.730 --> 00:36:58.889 community and I think because of it's killed, it's affected so many what people 474 00:36:59.329 --> 00:37:02.760 right, it's something that honestly, and Dad, my mom listening to this, 475 00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:07.360 but it's something I've never even with my mom. I've never asked, 476 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:12.559 you know. I know that I have several friends who have had abortions, 477 00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.510 that when I was growing up, my teenage years, and they've never said 478 00:37:15.510 --> 00:37:20.469 anything else about it. It's so it's something that is not it's happening, 479 00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:24.989 but it's not talked about. And there you saying it's more like there's a 480 00:37:25.110 --> 00:37:30.699 shame factor there because so many have been affected by abortion, or it's kind 481 00:37:30.699 --> 00:37:34.059 of like the skeletons in the closet sort of thing. I think it's a 482 00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:37.619 I think it's a lot of skeletons in the closet that families don't talk about. 483 00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:44.969 And so it is and you think about it from when you talk when 484 00:37:45.090 --> 00:37:47.530 and it's there's kind of a general silence, I would say. Right. 485 00:37:47.969 --> 00:37:51.929 So then you have somebody like me, as always, talking about it, 486 00:37:52.690 --> 00:38:00.039 you know, and I might get sometimes I'll get messages from people or even 487 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.119 a family, you know family that says, you know, I had an 488 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.920 abortion and you know this is a very important issue for me. Thank you. 489 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.869 Thank you for what you're doing. You know, I've talked to black 490 00:38:12.909 --> 00:38:15.469 women that I've gone to church with over time. Is I've talked more about 491 00:38:15.469 --> 00:38:19.590 a board portion. They started to say, you know, I've had I've 492 00:38:19.630 --> 00:38:23.230 had two abortions. I've had four abortions people that I would have never thought 493 00:38:23.309 --> 00:38:30.059 or knew. So it's just a very there's just a general silence about it, 494 00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:34.380 and so I and I think that's more of a reason to talk about 495 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:37.340 it, because I do want to see people healed right, I want to 496 00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:42.409 see people healed in Jesus and not carrying the ground. And I would you 497 00:38:42.489 --> 00:38:45.809 know, we need more post aboard of ministries and Black Churches. But then 498 00:38:45.889 --> 00:38:49.849 even just thinking about the abortion issue, how to you know that it's a 499 00:38:50.010 --> 00:38:53.369 sin and how to you know that it's taking innocent human life? You just 500 00:38:53.489 --> 00:38:59.159 don't hear that in sermons. You don't hear that in discussions at all, 501 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.480 and so there's kind of this under and I think what it is like. 502 00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:09.030 You know, we were talking earlier about this oppressor oppressed situation right where the 503 00:39:10.590 --> 00:39:15.269 where the oppressed. Someone who feels oppressed for so long they will tend to 504 00:39:15.989 --> 00:39:22.030 oppress someone else. So it's almost like killing our own is okay, right. 505 00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:27.099 It is something that's accepted. It's something that we don't you know, 506 00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:30.500 we don't talk about a whole lot, but the statistics speak for themselves. 507 00:39:30.340 --> 00:39:37.860 So it's happening on a regular, accelerated basis. But then when we have 508 00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:44.210 a police officer who killed, you know, who unfairly kills one of us, 509 00:39:44.690 --> 00:39:49.170 then that is the time that we speak out right and we get infuriated. 510 00:39:49.889 --> 00:39:54.519 So there is just this dope, this very double double standard in our 511 00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:59.920 community. I mean when you talking about things, even with those point like 512 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.440 the I think it was plant parenthood campaign, or may have been the now 513 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:07.829 campaign, shout your abortion, you know, remember talk about your portion, 514 00:40:07.869 --> 00:40:10.670 shout your abortion. Those were who was at educated white women who are doing 515 00:40:10.789 --> 00:40:15.750 that right. Yeah, you don't see a lot of black women participating in 516 00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:20.949 these days. Now Plant parent who has had some targeted campaigns to try to 517 00:40:21.110 --> 00:40:24.059 bring black women into that and they have participated, but on a like on 518 00:40:24.139 --> 00:40:30.300 a everyday level of the average person, you just don't see black people shouting 519 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:35.539 their abortion, and so it's it is very taboo, but it continues to 520 00:40:35.659 --> 00:40:38.650 happen repeatedly, obviously. And so yeah, I don't know. I mean 521 00:40:38.690 --> 00:40:44.449 there's not a I don't think there's a a answer in terms of why that 522 00:40:44.690 --> 00:40:47.409 is, but I know that that needs to change. I think yeah, 523 00:40:47.889 --> 00:40:52.480 yeah, one of the things said, I would echo that you are saying 524 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:58.039 about how it so needs to change. Recently I did have a a woman, 525 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.760 a mother, and her mother's not, for me, very abortion minded. 526 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.550 I don't even know why they stopped. But as the discussion preceded, 527 00:41:05.670 --> 00:41:12.269 the mother of the pregnant daughter admitted that she had had a number of abortions 528 00:41:12.510 --> 00:41:15.469 and then her daughter hadn't known that. She had known maybe her mother had 529 00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:17.070 had one or two, but her mother hadn't had a number of them. 530 00:41:17.429 --> 00:41:22.059 And then the mother proceeded to to cry and talk about the pain and the 531 00:41:22.179 --> 00:41:28.980 sorrow and the despair that had been hidden from this daughter. And ultimately the 532 00:41:29.420 --> 00:41:32.849 daughter got on the RV chose life. But it struck me how, when 533 00:41:34.050 --> 00:41:37.969 any sin is in darkness, it's hidden, it just grows, it multiplies 534 00:41:38.530 --> 00:41:44.170 and if the children are seeing that, they know their MOMS have had abortions, 535 00:41:44.210 --> 00:41:46.400 but it's never talked about it, it's never talked about in a negative 536 00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:52.199 way, but they do what they've what they see and what they learned from 537 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.119 their parents, and so it's perpetuated. Yeah, and if you don't hear 538 00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:59.119 about it, you know if you're going to church every Sunday and you never 539 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:04.710 heard about it and no one talk I mean you, I had no idea 540 00:42:04.750 --> 00:42:08.309 how to think about abortion, you know, and so until when I want, 541 00:42:08.469 --> 00:42:12.789 well even after I got safe, I just I never thought about it, 542 00:42:12.989 --> 00:42:17.579 I never heard about it and and it was just it was through radio. 543 00:42:17.780 --> 00:42:22.860 I heard a radio and information ad and I just started thinking about it 544 00:42:23.019 --> 00:42:27.820 more. But it's just it's not something that's talked about. Now you do 545 00:42:27.980 --> 00:42:30.969 have people like Bishop Patrick Root, and I think he's up in Riley, 546 00:42:31.369 --> 00:42:36.489 who is so outspoken, and then you have one of your votings and those 547 00:42:36.570 --> 00:42:39.769 of those who were just, you know, all about pro life issues and 548 00:42:40.010 --> 00:42:45.719 Benjamin I send Benjaman's rack. Aster Gabriel Rodgers here in in Charlotte speaks about 549 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.639 the issue of abortion a regular basis. He's one of the churches you mentioned 550 00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.639 that comes out to the prayer walks. These men have got a just awesome 551 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.719 in addressing the issue. Yeah, yeah, Bitch. When Watson is he's 552 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.829 might. He was a nfl he played in the NFL. He just retired. 553 00:43:00.389 --> 00:43:04.869 He's my pastor son. He's my pastor's oldest son and he's actually spoken 554 00:43:04.909 --> 00:43:07.550 at the marks for the life and he's doing he's working on a pro life 555 00:43:07.590 --> 00:43:10.230 documentary, he's trying to get more black people to talk about it and for 556 00:43:10.309 --> 00:43:14.860 it to be more mainstream. Again in our peasers, people that are hurting 557 00:43:15.500 --> 00:43:20.019 and there is this idea that again out of side, out of mind. 558 00:43:21.340 --> 00:43:24.699 You just you get over you just pray, get over it, move on 559 00:43:25.340 --> 00:43:29.130 and don't talk about it. And so, like Vicki was saying, with 560 00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:31.369 the young girl with the abortion, amount of girl who did had no idea 561 00:43:31.369 --> 00:43:35.690 that our mother had an abortion. You just don't, you know, it's 562 00:43:35.730 --> 00:43:39.730 just kind of a secret. And then sometimes with US black prolifers, I've 563 00:43:39.809 --> 00:43:45.159 noticed that we can be more focused on our just come from political perspective. 564 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:50.440 Yeah, I'm to try to to try to talk to black people about you 565 00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.440 know, you know, and we don't start at the heart of the issue, 566 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.710 which is, you know, when you which is a humanity, because 567 00:43:58.789 --> 00:44:01.949 when we as as black people, when we accept that abortion is okay and 568 00:44:02.030 --> 00:44:07.750 as acceptable, I mean we are we are reaffirming the idea that human beings, 569 00:44:07.789 --> 00:44:12.139 that they're human beings of less value and worth. And so where we 570 00:44:13.019 --> 00:44:16.659 those ideas that even racist individuals may have against us, those ideas that Jim 571 00:44:16.860 --> 00:44:22.500 crow fought against, those ideas that that were prevalent during slavery and the reason 572 00:44:22.539 --> 00:44:29.250 for the civil war and these things. So we're we're reiterating the ideas that 573 00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:34.010 have perpetuated against us throughout, you know, throughout American history. So, 574 00:44:34.289 --> 00:44:37.530 yeah, right, do you do you find, I know you shared a 575 00:44:37.570 --> 00:44:40.719 little bit earlier, in your experience in being a black woman who is pro 576 00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:46.280 life? Do you find that you get pushed back within African American circles being 577 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:49.920 pro life? And I know you said you had some people to reach out 578 00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:52.110 to you who's you have shared past abortions and they're reaching out to you, 579 00:44:52.190 --> 00:44:55.989 and obviously in a positive way, but you get some negative reactions to I 580 00:44:57.070 --> 00:45:01.590 guess absolutely. Yeah, it becomes so you get the so the the what 581 00:45:01.710 --> 00:45:06.030 happens is the more at spoken. It's some people are just quiet and they'll 582 00:45:06.070 --> 00:45:09.619 just, you know, they disapprove quietly. But then you have, you 583 00:45:09.739 --> 00:45:14.219 know, the people who, you know, call you the traders and the 584 00:45:14.260 --> 00:45:19.780 uncle Tom's and and the cellouts and the coons and that you're just playing along. 585 00:45:20.659 --> 00:45:23.530 They think that you are. Again, think about that, like I'm 586 00:45:23.530 --> 00:45:27.730 really glad that you talked about the semi racism thing earlier, the idea of 587 00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.650 it, because they you know, again, you know, kind of going 588 00:45:30.690 --> 00:45:35.760 back to that, I'm there are these disparities sometimes in a in a general 589 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.960 sense, with some economic issues and things like that, even though it's not 590 00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.440 all that's not always an issue of injustice. It's just sometimes that's just how 591 00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.960 things are for certain reasons. But it's almost like, okay, pro life 592 00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:52.670 is a that's a white conservative evangelical issue, you know. An't know. 593 00:45:52.789 --> 00:45:55.869 What I wanted to get to is that this idea that, you know, 594 00:45:57.349 --> 00:46:01.710 it is a Republican Democrat issue and that's why there's there's this kind of unwillingness 595 00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:05.940 to address the issue of abortion the black community. So you're you're kind of 596 00:46:05.980 --> 00:46:07.860 reiterating that, I guess. Well, yeah, it's like, you know, 597 00:46:08.420 --> 00:46:12.900 because the idea is that, okay, if you're black, you should 598 00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:20.409 be fighting for things like, you know, equal pay and reparations and black 599 00:46:20.570 --> 00:46:23.210 rights and these sort of things, and and black you should be fighting for, 600 00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:28.329 you know, against the legal system, you know, and things like 601 00:46:28.489 --> 00:46:31.920 that, or neighborhood you know, you'd should be fighting for neighborhood development and 602 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:38.480 poor community for minority communities and first the school system, flip public school system 603 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:43.159 in the inner city fighting for abortion. That is again, that's a wide 604 00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:47.389 evangelical, Upper Club, middle upper class issue. That's that. That's their 605 00:46:47.510 --> 00:46:52.909 fight and you are ignoring your community by being a part of that. So 606 00:46:53.070 --> 00:46:58.630 that becomes the idea. And so but I think through through you, through 607 00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:02.059 educating. I mean I have several, you know, black friends that we're 608 00:47:02.179 --> 00:47:06.500 not pro life and not in just because they didn't they never thought about it, 609 00:47:07.219 --> 00:47:09.699 you know, they just it's not something I would do. But you 610 00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:13.059 know somebody wants to do you know it. You know they can do it. 611 00:47:13.179 --> 00:47:15.369 So that's the beauty you have of understanding, you know, some prolife 612 00:47:15.369 --> 00:47:21.730 apologetics and some training and how to have conversations, because all times that that 613 00:47:21.889 --> 00:47:25.969 happens in conversations one on one and through messages and tests and phone calls and 614 00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:30.079 things like that. So that's why I'm still going to say what I have 615 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:34.480 to say and because there are people who are being affected and who are hearing 616 00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.079 it. There's some people who are going to call you to sell out because 617 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.599 they believe that you have sold out your people and your the causes that are 618 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:44.119 important to us and that you folk for focusing on abortion again, because we 619 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.110 don't talk about abortion as a community and we don't talk about the devastating effects 620 00:47:47.110 --> 00:47:53.309 and abortion on our community right and so it's it can be kind of multifaceted 621 00:47:53.389 --> 00:47:59.500 the responses, but there are people who aren't seeing the truth and seeing the 622 00:47:59.539 --> 00:48:02.980 light. And so with like you know what, regardless, you know, 623 00:48:04.059 --> 00:48:07.019 truth is truth and we have to stand on for us God in the process. 624 00:48:07.179 --> 00:48:10.940 So yeah, well, thank God we've got a Godly woman like you 625 00:48:12.139 --> 00:48:15.050 and and you're speaking out in the way that you are and you're able to 626 00:48:15.329 --> 00:48:20.010 just confront these issues head on and bring the Gospel into the equation or at 627 00:48:20.050 --> 00:48:24.369 the forefront of the conversation, because that is ultimately what's going to change the 628 00:48:24.449 --> 00:48:29.880 issue of racism and the issue of abortion and whatever other sins we deal with 629 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.480 as human beings. It's the Gospel. Yeah, well, you know, 630 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:38.039 even with racism, you know, we have to talk me when in conversations. 631 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:40.550 I mean you can, you know, say racism is is is a 632 00:48:40.630 --> 00:48:45.429 sin. You know, I may not be racist, but there's sins in 633 00:48:45.590 --> 00:48:49.869 my heart right and we all have sin or of some sort. And so 634 00:48:50.510 --> 00:48:53.789 let's you know, God is good. God is perfect, he's holy and 635 00:48:53.869 --> 00:48:59.260 he can save anybody, you know, and so even even through racism, 636 00:49:00.300 --> 00:49:05.059 God can penetrate hearts and change hearts. But it's seen as it is seen 637 00:49:05.099 --> 00:49:08.500 as the issue of our day and as the kind of the unforgivable sin. 638 00:49:09.250 --> 00:49:15.610 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's a sad reality. It's like even 639 00:49:15.929 --> 00:49:21.170 again, me, as a white Christian man, I'm sometimes like I don't 640 00:49:21.170 --> 00:49:24.079 know what I can say and what I can't say without getting getting in the 641 00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:28.679 the PR police after me. So I just say what I feel like the 642 00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:34.039 word of God says and just let the Lord deal with but it's a difficult 643 00:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.960 time to live in. As far as the things that you feel like you 644 00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.230 can say, the truth, I feel like you can say without having a 645 00:49:40.269 --> 00:49:43.989 terrible backlash. And of course, you know, we've seen some of that 646 00:49:44.469 --> 00:49:49.230 in media and and all of that recently. The wortion is, I mean 647 00:49:49.429 --> 00:49:52.500 the the abortion clinic is the I. That is a war zone already, 648 00:49:53.179 --> 00:49:58.659 and then you add a racial tension war on top of that. That's going 649 00:49:58.780 --> 00:50:02.019 on in media and it's just a, you know, the perfect storm for 650 00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:07.530 you know, an explosion Alma. Yeah, and it is. But you 651 00:50:07.610 --> 00:50:12.170 know, from from a positive aspect. I see what's happening out at the 652 00:50:12.210 --> 00:50:16.090 abortion center in many ways as being like on a microcoss and the way to 653 00:50:16.250 --> 00:50:22.400 heal racial tension, because they, I think, overwhelmingly, at least the 654 00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:25.440 sideball counclers I know, love people because they're people made in the image of 655 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.679 God and they are reaching now to these women, not because they're black or 656 00:50:29.719 --> 00:50:32.440 white, but because their women who are in a desperate place, feeling that 657 00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:37.590 killing their child is an answer, and we have a different answer, the 658 00:50:37.789 --> 00:50:44.070 aid, a Godly, Gospel driven answer and s and so worn. It 659 00:50:44.309 --> 00:50:49.670 connects them to our humanity and we're connected to their humanity, which what I'm 660 00:50:49.670 --> 00:50:53.739 hearing you saying is the absolute crucial thing to do. When and that that 661 00:50:53.860 --> 00:50:59.219 happens regularly out there. Yeah, well, and and those. You see 662 00:50:59.300 --> 00:51:01.500 that all the time. And people don't that's one thing people don't see. 663 00:51:01.539 --> 00:51:05.849 Oh, white people don't care, you know, and these things. But 664 00:51:05.929 --> 00:51:08.530 then I see you, know you, Vicky, you know you guys on 665 00:51:08.650 --> 00:51:12.769 the RV with this young lady. Think about this. When you come to 666 00:51:12.929 --> 00:51:15.809 when a when a woman comes to an abortion clinic, are young girl comes 667 00:51:15.849 --> 00:51:19.760 abortion clinic. That's probably the lowest point of her life right. Yeah, 668 00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:24.039 and you're and you're there being Christ hands and feet and meet her there and 669 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:29.960 in standing there for her in the gap. So talk about I mean, 670 00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.909 if you want to talk about a picture of of love, of true love, 671 00:51:35.309 --> 00:51:42.550 of sacrificial love, of love for humanity, of if there's any sort 672 00:51:42.590 --> 00:51:47.940 of picture of love, virtual unity and love, it's on that sidewalk. 673 00:51:49.659 --> 00:51:53.340 You know, it's people are as. People are reaching across racial lines to 674 00:51:53.980 --> 00:52:00.980 save lives, literally save lives, and to offer help resources and it's in 675 00:52:00.139 --> 00:52:07.329 a total change in direction and one's like, hmm, it's the thing. 676 00:52:07.650 --> 00:52:12.369 Yeah, I agree. That's awesome. I appreciate you that that. That's 677 00:52:12.409 --> 00:52:16.440 actually a great note for us to end this podcast on soly. Very encouraging, 678 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:22.400 Melissa. It's very encouraging having you own and it's very enlightening to hear 679 00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.239 your respect. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. If people 680 00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:28.360 want to get in touch with you and Devin, how do they get in 681 00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:35.429 touch with you? Sure you can email us, Melissa Palu at Rassio Christie 682 00:52:35.469 --> 00:52:38.150 Dot Org. I know that's a mouthful with between my name and our ministry. 683 00:52:38.190 --> 00:52:40.710 Yeah, put it. Didn't up at it in the show notes at 684 00:52:40.750 --> 00:52:44.460 the at the bottom of the podcast, a link there. Do you guys 685 00:52:44.780 --> 00:52:47.820 what I and I you know I do talks, and Devin does you know? 686 00:52:47.900 --> 00:52:52.739 We do pro if apologetic talks, helping people to think through the issue 687 00:52:52.739 --> 00:52:55.460 of abortion, how to defend the PROLFE position. But then also, you 688 00:52:55.539 --> 00:53:00.489 know, the race is the issue of race and talking about and racial reconciliation. 689 00:53:00.730 --> 00:53:05.570 That's something that's very much on my heart and I fortunate as a part 690 00:53:05.690 --> 00:53:08.369 of that those presentations that I do. It has to be because it is 691 00:53:08.449 --> 00:53:12.920 again the number one killer of black people and we has to be an issue 692 00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:17.599 that's addressed and talk about. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Melissa, 693 00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.000 again, I appreciate you coming on. We're going to wrap this thing 694 00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.719 up and right, I appreciate you guys who who listen and just if you 695 00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:29.110 need to get in touch with me, it's deep parks. It cities for 696 00:53:29.190 --> 00:53:31.469 lifecom. You get in touch with the Vicki. It's V Cassey Org at 697 00:53:31.510 --> 00:53:36.909 cities for lifecom and Melissa shared her contact info there. So, guys, 698 00:53:36.949 --> 00:53:39.630 we appreciate you guys listening. Hopefully you'll share this podcast. Hopefully was a 699 00:53:39.670 --> 00:53:47.780 blessing to you. Until next time, God bless me. Ove for love, 700 00:53:52.500 --> 00:54:00.969 give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost me my 701 00:54:00.289 --> 00:54:07.690 love. No, sins too precious, and some you