Abortion and Racism in The US - Interview with Melissa Pellew

0:00 If you want to talk about a picture of true love, of sacrificial love, of love for humanity. If there's any sort of picture of virtual unity and love, it's on that side law, as people are reaching across racial lines to literally save lives and to offer help resources, and it's in a total change in direction and one's like. I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me Lord, I am your. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. In this episode we have an interview with Melissa Pollu, who talks to us about abortion and racism in America. Please join us as we cover this topic from a Gospel Center perspective. I felt show, passish, touch your use me love. I've welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you, guys listening. We have a special guest with us today and we're going to talk about a special subject and a difficult subject for many of us to deal with and to think through, but hopefully we'll be able to help you guys think through this subject together, and it's the subject of abortion and light of race relations and just with all the things that we've got going on in our nation with the kill think of George Floyd and and all the other issues that surround this. We really thought that

1:34 we need to talk about abortion in light of those things. And who better to talk about this with then Melissa Polu. She's been involved in prolife ministry for a long time. When I first got involved in prolife ministry she was involved and we've known each other for a long time. Heard and her husband Devin just been a blessing to the Ministry of Cities for life and so we wanted to bring her own and we also have Vicky on the line. Just so you guys know. We're on a skype call here, so the audio might not be exactly what it normally is, but we hope it will still be a blessing you guys. But yes, say hey Vicki, hey there everyone. Hopefully you can hear Vicky well, and then just introduce yourself real quick, Melissa, and what you Endevin are doing there on the college campus?

2:15 Absolutely so I'm my name is Melissa Pellu, my husband's Devon. We are the chapter directors at went from University and rock kill, South Carolina, with a ministry callrational Christie, which is Latin for the reason of Christ. So we do apologetics evangelism ministry, where we are training college students to understand more about what they believe why they believe it. So we deal with the number of different issues associated with a lot of the ideas, secular ideas that are kind of infiltrated the college campus, and then also evangelized students of other worldviews, whether they are Muslim or skeptic, a fist, what have you.

2:58 So we deal with quite a bit of issues related to, you know, God's existence and how we contrast the Bible, but also these ethical issues like abortion, we deal with quite a bit. So our training on the sidewalk has really been beneficial. Just, you know, being on the sidewalk and talking to abortion minded women and families has been very beneficial as we're communicating how to have those conversations and, in the pro defending the pro life issue on the college campus with students who many times don't affirm the sanctity of human life. So we are very thankful. You can look us at Rashio Christie at went at university and we're just blessed to be here today. Yeah, appreciate you coming on and we did a podcast a couple of months ago with Devon talking about some issues with pro life apologetics and things like that. It was real blessing to us, real blessing to have him join us on that.

3:53 But we've got you on and anybody guess why we would have Melissa own when we're talking about race relations? Why would we have you on Melyssa? Well, if we were on video, I mean if you evident, but I am indeed black and and, like you said, being involved in pro life activism for so long on the sidewalk and just in different areas, some doing conferences and trainings and things like that, you know having that that experience, but it is not a commonality. It's not very common to have a lot of black prolife activists. So I think that that's that might be why you brought me on. I'm not sure, though. Yeah. Well, first and foremost we brought you on because you're a you're a godly woman that has a godly perspective. So that's the first thing. But you happen to be a black woman and you have some experience in dealing with race from a perspective that I don't have and that Vicky don't have, and so we thought to bring you in this conversation because, yeah, like you said, there is a unfortunately a scarcity of black individuals within the pro life movement, even though it's becoming more and more from what I see. Is that what you're seeing to yeah, I think people are starting to at least think about the issue a lot more. But I'm really been blessed to see on the Saturday mornings with the prayer walks, a lot of black churches in the Charlotte area really becoming active and participating. So from that perspective I'm really encouraged. Yeah, sure as well. So you know, like I said, before we

5:26 get started with this, I'm going to ask you some questions. It's going to be real relational and I just want you to talk. I want you to share your heart. I want people to understand from a black woman's perspective the issue of abortion and dealing with, you know, race and and dealing with abortion and light of race and all of that, and I think it will help us to understand because, you know, let's face it, lessen, you've been out there, Vicky, you've been out there for many years too, and you seen the majority of the women and going into the the trabe abortion clinic are unfortunately black women that are going in, and so it's a reality that we deal with on a regular basis, dealing with rays, dealing with women who are not the same color as us and trying to see from their perspective. Trying to see me from a woman's perspective is really hard, but trying to see from a black woman's perspective is even harder, you know. So we want to get some perspective from you and I do want to talk about kind of the larger picture of things, and that's where I want to start, if you don't mind. I don't want to start with the idea of systematic racism or systemic racism. Is this in your opinion and from your experience? Is this reality in our country? Yeah, so that is, you know, a very hot button issue right, systemic racism, and you know, Struck, you know, are some people call it structural racism or institutional racism. Those are kind of synonyms and I just to give a general popular definition of what we're talking about for those who are not aware.

7:03 When we're talking about racism, you know, the center of racism in terms of, you know, individuals who have racist intent and motives, and they prejudge people and they have racist attitudes towards someone else or attitude superiority based on in color. So we would recognize that as racism, I think all people would. And then systemic racism, the general popular definition would be something along the lines of the social or economic, political, educational legal systems as well, that they would say that those systems in our country are designed in a systematic way, of foundational way, to oppress minorities into somehow grant or set white people up for success or some sort of too in a superior way.

8:03 So the systems systemically, the systems of the country are all designed to basically oppressed black people and it's just and so it from the perspective of someone who holds to that, not myself, I'm just saying from the perspective of someone who holds it out. Sure, yeah, when they look at the world or they look at opportunities, they would say they would feel that they're all there's a minority, would feel like they are set up for failure from the moment that they're born, that they're not on equal footing or a equal set up. Think that things are not equal, equally set up for minorities and white people. So part of the and I'll tell you that that a question is hard to answer, kind of kind of a loaded question, and it was, it was intended to be. I wanted to kind of get your reaction on this. Yeah, yeah, and and I was just I want to pack watch hard to answer because there are so there's just their various definitions, even I mean if you go to us, you know, to some scholarship and academic and a sex on the seculo campus, versus some of the popular definitions that are in a lot of the books that are are out now. But the and that's why I think that the issue itself, it's so it's so ambiguous, this idea of systemic racism, that I don't think it's something that we can that a person can hold tightly onto and a firm

9:37 in a dogmatic way. So I know it's not a yes or no answer, but yeah, it's ex actually kind of what I was what I was aiming at. Vicky, you want to pipe in on this. Well, no, I actually I totally agree with you the list said, because I've been really grappling and and I just wrote a note to a friend who is very much involved in in, I guess, eradicating systemic racism and said the more I read, actually the more confused then it is. Right, it is a confusing issue an area, because what you're looking at, basically, it mean it's a social theory. Right. So with theories what you're doing is you're looking at data and you're looking at different things. And so what the person who's saying that the systemic racist social theorist? They're looking at disparities, right, so they're saying there's economic disparities between whites and blacks, there's educational disparities, there's private property disparities, right, so they're they're looking at those disparities and saying, well, it has there has to be some systemic reason that that is happening. But this does the the problem when you just when you just narrow down to that, is that you you that you don't take into account other factors, things like marriage, right we I mean even when you look at economics with black children, if they are raised in a two parent family, there's only about a seven percent poverty rate. Okay,

11:11 and that that's and you compare that with white children who are raised in a two parent home, there's about a twenty two percent poverty rate. Okay, now that's so amazing statistic. I have never heard that. MMM. So, yeah, black children raised in two parent homes typically don't or not impoverished. And so that and I think that. So that's that's what I'm saying. It's trying. It's hard to blame or to pin these disparities solely on this systemic issues when there are these personal issues, these individual issues. They're's these there's cultural issues on with, you know, again with marriage and with audio, how think, mindsets and that choices. It kind of it does it. It does does remove personal responsibility from the equation. Right, so you're able to say that it's I can't achieve this or I can't do this where I'm doing this because things are just set up and stacked against me.

12:13 And you know, things, when we really look at it, we don't want to disparage. Think like if we're going to say that all these privilege, like privilege, for instance, that there's things, I mean marriage privilege, like I brought up right, there's privilege when you're point into a family with two parents. So we don't want to take but we don't want to destroy those in like marriage, for instance, right, because there's this species. Right. So it's just a very abstract thing to me. Now they're they're there. Can I believe the answer is to just look at individual policies and to see if there are policies that do harm, you know, black people, whether intentional or unintentional. I think if you take that then it's just it's more defined, it's more based on real life and data and things like that. But if, yeah, you're just this whole this, this whole idea, that that's what's happened, it is take this whole idea and we're looking at all these asperities without looking at individual just maybe individual policies and things like that that that made need to be changed. But in general, I just I don't hold firmly to the idea of system and racism just because it's ambiguous and I'd rather look at individual areas where there may be some some you know, some things that are unfair, and deal with it from that perspective. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I did want to touch on that

13:46 again as a big picture question, because it's a question that a lot of you know. We hear it again. It's like a buzz word in the media systemic racism and this idea of systemic racism. And you know, when certain statistics and certain things are laid out to me, I'm like, well, yeah, there's a there's a system in place. It seems to be bent against minorities, against black people, and you know, but then you look at other statistics it's like like what you shared, it's like and, all things equal, there's not this systemic racism. And so it's it's really confusing and it's really hard for me, again as a white man, to come from that perspective and to see that. And so, yeah, I wanted to hear your perspective, but now just to kind of bring it into to what we really want to talk about, which is the issue of abortion and racings, because there's no doubt you mentioned it when we first started.

14:35 The Sin of racism, the sin of racism exists absolutely. I think you would probably agree that it's going to exist until Jesus returns, no matter how much we try to fight against it. It's like any other sin and it does have its own unique issues that it causes. Of course, I'm not trying to marginalize that as just any other sin. It has issues that it makes but, like every sin, only Jesus Christ is gonna Remedy that. That's that's a reality and I appreciate you saying that, but it does at least the issue of race and abortion do come up in a lot of conversations and and, just like I said, on a daytoday basis in our outreach, we deal with young black women going into the abortion centers and I've been called a racist so many time I can't even count. And I'm sure you, Melissa, and you can crackt me if I'm wrong, seet out there at the abortion planning you probably been called a racist or called with it whatever.

15:37 Yeah, the names. Yeah, that I want to repeat. But, yeah, sell out things like that, of course. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of kind of funny the way that people just kind of throw these terms out there. But how how do the issues in your mind of racism and abortion intersect in the University of America? All right, so again we have from the racism exists, and so we because the hardest sinful right, we love darkness rather than light, and as long as we are in the condition, we can, you know, as long as we're human, we can have sinful attitudes and racism is a sinful way of thinking and looking at the world now and know and we look at the issue of abortion, we look at the reality that abortion kills unborn onoraty children at a much higher rate then the national average. And we're talking about a we're talking about minority population where you have sixteen million black children who have died due to abortion.

16:44 We're talking about the number one killer of the black community, where it's five times higher for abortion to occur in a black family than a white family. So when we look at the history of abortion and we bring it so looking just looking at those that of abortion now being the number one killer black community, we look at the history with with the abortion movement in America, of course, Miss Margaret Sanger was the proponent and she had very her thoughts were based on a eugenics model and Eugenics, and I know you have had talked to devil with that in a previous show. A eugenics model is basically design where you look at humans based on their their potential, their function, what they can what they can give to society and some people are considered non useful and that in that way, and so black people because of all of the you know, the slavery and all civil rights, all these all these things that we're going through, the largely uneducated black population. They were included in that eugenics model of those that Margaret Singer deemed unworthy. The neger project, I think it was one thousand nine hundred and thirty two, was aimed at the black community, where the pastors were encouraging the use of birth control and and that. So population control is was basically the idea. And if we

18:17 look at the numbers we have, we see a population control issue. So when a population targeted because of their skin color, that is racism right. And we look at the presence of the abortion clinics in poor and minority areas, that is a marketing tool that is designed to normalize abortion and to target that community. When you place a business in a certain community, you are targeting that community. Is there for a purpose. And so the fact that the the roots of abortion were race were based on a eugenics model that targeted black people for Population Control. And then the fact that we now have force planets in majority of black neighborhoods, we have now abortionist in number one and killer of black people. It is completely tied to racism because of the targeting based on skin color. Right it also, I like what you said the about the root issue, because I think the root issue is very similar in the killing of the unborn and racism. In both cases the value, of the value drinchic human value people group is is questioned, is put into Questian and and as soon as that happens, then you can harm that class of

19:49 humans because you feel that their value is less than yours. And that's true for the unborn and that's true for the minorities. That has been true throughout all who through right dehumanization of population, whether where there's the US, whether it's the blocks, you know now it's babies. And one of the sad, sad realities is when we look at civil rights and we look at oppression against black people, and you know, it's a I mean what the black population has been through in this country from forgery years, you know, from slave before under years to where we are now. It's just remarkable in my opinion. You know, it's just amazing what God has done through many people who fought for rights and who stood, but oldly and courageously, for those rights. But what you find it when people are oppressed for so long, many times they become oppressors themselves, and this is sometimes very unconsciously because of a sense of a loss of power and things of that nature. So we now see black women, black families killing their own children, and this is an act of oppression because, like you said, Vicki the dehumanization of that child in the womb, and that is what allows a part. That is what's that is a a a process. That will you know that Lee city children's death. So it's a very sad reality. That what happens, you

21:22 know, from the racist attitudes and turning the community and then people internal as it all right and they themselves become the oppressors. That that is historically happened in pretty much every other civilization as well. Wow, right, yeah, that's Melissa. That's that's a unique perspective there that you bring that up, and that kind of brings me to another one of the points that I want to touch on, because what you just said, and you know I have to process it. I take your word for it and I believe you're telling me the truth. For sure, I have to processes, to think about it, but even if I did fully agree with what you just said.

22:03 Can I even voice that? And so what I'm asking is, you know, is is it the place of, you know, for a pro life white man like myself to say things like what you just said or to point out some of the issues with plan parenthood, you know, with Margaret saying? I mean we got the toppling of statues across this country of confederate soldiers and all that. We're not going to get into that subject. But as I look at that, I'm thinking, man, they should be toppling the statues of Margaret Singer and getting these things. It's just like provable as a racist right. But is it mob is it my place, is it Vicki's places as a white pro lifers to address those issues? And then, if it is our plays, how do we address those issues without it just being a landmine? You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean it's I mean it is a difficult area to to navigate through, you know, because you do want to be sensitive. But Truth is truth, right, the word of God is is unchanging. It is our standard, and so my shortance would be yes, you should address that, speak on that, talk about that reality, because it is a sinful the ascent of abortion it has.

23:14 So it's the effects or self profound on the black community and so yes, I encourage my white brothers and sisters to talk about that and to not in to not back down from God's truth. Now, as far as talking about it and how we do it, I think that that is is maybe more more of the the question denial of how do we do that? You know, yeah, I guess the context that I'm speaking to is, you know, I think there's a national context, certainly for you pro life leaders, for politicians even to be speaking about this, but the context primarily I'm speaking to is at the abortion center with an abortion minded mom as I'm sharing some of the statistics and some of the things because, you know, you get into those heated conversations, they want to come over and set you straight and sometimes I almost in well, I'm actually very careful and walking on eggshells if I'd bring up the issues of the fact that that abortion clinic is located in a minority neighborhood, that there's also another abortion clinic just around the corner and that you're not going to find those abortion clinics in a white neighborhood, he is not going to find it. So I guess that's more the context I'm speaking of. Is it my place to say that? How do I need to address that and not make it into just a racial fight, because that's not what I'm trying to get into with an abortionnt of mom, you know, all right, right, you're at that point. You don't mean you're not trying to get into the deeper issues of race and race relations.

24:37 Right, you want that. You want her to see that that child is worthy of life and that God design that child and that she should not murder her child. So again, I think just and and and for being on the sidewalk, maybe I can, I can share some of the things I've heard that I thought were insensitive. Yeah, yeah, please do that. No, yeah, just saying that, you know, your black baby matters. You're a black baby this and you're a black baby that. I think we need to be careful about saying that. I mean in this culture, I mean Godi, people are so triggered, you know, and we with everything going on, we need to maybe be careful about that. And just even with you know, black, black unborn lives matter, just with that whole thing with black lives matter, because it's such a power, you know, it's such a convincing movement to a lot of people. It can that can trigger some things for people where they just shut down and they're not going to talk to you or they're going to make certain assumptions about you. I think for those issues it is better dealt with in an ongoing situation, like if you're if you have someone that you're engaging, you know car that you that you stopped and that you want it in your talking to them. You can talk to them about how this place is is a place that is, you know, as a white supremacist tool. You know, I think in a conversation that's very good. I don't think that it should be the first thing you bring up, but I think I think it does have its place because ultimately this is a humanity issue and so in that that's one thing too.

26:12 I think that even in the within the prolife community, we don't we with the George Floyd and the Brianna Taylor and the modd Aubrey. We don't. I don't think. I don't think the answers just to deflect to olbortion use. The first is number one killer, you know, and those case is automatically because I think we have an opportunity to say that was wrong what happened to George Floyd, you know, for that police officer to kill him that way. I mean we watching that video and this man asking for his mom, you know, regardless of this past choices or that, but asking for his mom and being murdered right there on a video in front of us. That's difficult. So I think we can say, you know, that those things are horrible and that God does not approve inappropriate situation. Is Not every racial incident. Obviously is a is a is an issue of racism that's reported in the media, but verify will issues. We want to show that we care right that the that we care about humanity and just it's such a touchy issue. But I just think sometimes if you're on if you're on a microphone and just talking about race or doing a race education class, isn't necessarily the best time, at least right now. Yeah, but but I think talking about humanity itself, I think that is a great way to reach people, you know, because the idea what media is reinforcing in a lot of the meet the books now and everything is that. You know, white people don't see you as a person. Why? People don't see it as equal.

27:45 You know, white people are part of this system. This you know, when we talk about systemic racism, white people are part of that whole system that's holding you down. They don't care about you and they just want to oppress you and they think that they're better that you. So you awhere that this is a monset that is being that a person not not not necessarily all the time, a hundred percent of the time, but many times a black person will that's their perception coming to the situation, right, and so these they pull in and they see a bunch of white people there. There's got a we gotta somehow connect with their humanity, and that's really important because we want to show them that they're that we're all equal, and so is that child. You know, right and now I did, all made in the image of God, and I think that I'm uniting and one of the most powerful things we can say in terms of connecting as human beings. We are all made in God's image. Slogans that I use now even are black lives are sacred. You know, black lives matter to God. I think those, you know, even signs that say things like that or hell, I figure helpful, you know, because it shows that we care about the sanctity of all human life. You know. So, yeah, but it is difficult, Daniel. You know it's even difficult for me times to talk of what might be easier for me to talk about it then maybe for yourself.

29:11 So well, you know, I'll tell you just from experience, in which you know these rays as much, because, you know, recently especially, I have stayed away from any conversations about race, about the fact that more black babies are killed by abortion that are born. I mean, I don't I don't even say that commonly now as I'm talking to abortion minded women or calling out there. I just don't make race an issue because to me really it's not an issue. You know what I mean? As far as like, whether you're killing your black child or your white child or your Hispanic Child, whatever, you're killing the child and it's wrong, right. But as much as I am that ye other meet is reinforcing this this racial division over and over and over and over, and so we need we have to find a way to uny and bring these people to the understanding that we're that we're all created in the image of God, you know. So I think that we want to communicate that's going to resonate in this world that's so divided, you know. Yeah, right, I know. Just recently, I'd say since the George Floyd murder and all this racial tension and stuff, it seems like I've heard more and more of the people walking into the abortion center of accusations of racism toward myself. Yeah, I'm talking to me white boy out there. You know. Would you say that's case? Vicky? We heard it today. There was a change where we were being called racist because we were offering help. I don't know why we were. We certainly had not made any any racist remark, but but that's where it it started off

30:45 asn't saying, of course, you've heard this a thousand times, you should not be judging you're judging us, and then ultimately that we were racist in because, as we were judging what we're predominantly black women at that point walking into the abortion center. Whilst to be aware of you know, the the number one best selling the New York Times right now is white fragility by Robin D'Angelo. And she's a sosteologist who basically says that all white people are racist. Okay, so, whether subconsciously, whether you realize it or not, your whiteness is blinded you to your racism and that you can come to repent.

31:30 Not Well, she doesn't call it repentance, but you can come to realize that your whiteness is, in a sense evil. And so this is the number one best seller. Okay, wow, and white woman. Okay. And so he's saying that white people are racist. Just from for you to say that you're not a racist, it's just your white fragility showing, which is you're trying to so and you're doing I mean, there's nothing you can say. You're due to prod you, you are instantly labeled in. There is there's no, no way out of the rock. Yeah, that's what so, Melissa. Are you saying then, just for for the listeners who are because a lot of our listeners are daily out at the abortion centers and that's a lot of our listener base or sidebaught counsels and stuff like that.

32:16 So would you say, then, the best thing to do in those situations where, let's say, an abortion minded mom walking in who this happens to be black, yields back at you and says you're a racist. So the best response to that would just be to ignore that and talk about humanities. That that what happened, because if you defend go and defend yourself, that is seen is and in terms of modern theory, critical race theory and things like that, that is seen as you're showing your racism or because, yeah, this is why you'll see people in these videos or these talks or even even people, even friends, Christian Friends of mine, which is Sade.

33:00 You'll see them kind of innocence, repent of their whiteness, right, they are so sorry for they don't I don't. I don't know if they know what they're sorry for, but there's just they're sorry and they're repentant to what people right. So for that is seen as a you them. That is seen is a good thing because they are their acknowledgy and they're welcome up to understand their whiteness is evil. Okay. Now, when you defend it, it shows that you are you your fragile and this sort of thing. So, yeah, I would so, regardless if you try to defend yourself or not, you're still racist. You know, it's kind of darned if you do. darned if you don't send exactly to get that would be yeah.

33:45 So just focus on humanity, you know, try to speak through that that you care about that individual. Yeah, and those things. That's all you can do in a situations, I believe. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things just came to mind is I'm not out there as a white man. I'm out there is a Christian. That's primarily why I'm out there. If I wasn't a Christian I wouldn't be out at the abortion center at all. I wouldn't care about those babies or those women or anything. So yeah, I mean we're speaking out of our love for God, our love for people. So appreciate you. Appreciate you saying that and sharing all of that. Point people to Christ in those situations because if you get if you get caught up in that, it's you're not going to be able to have a fruitful of change. It ends up it's becoming a distraction. Any mean, I'll just say there's a temptation as a yeah, you young black woman is walking into the abortion center and she calls out to me and calls me a racist. There's a temptation in me to just lay out the statistics and talk about plan parenthoods history, talk about market saying all that. But, like you said, it just becomes a distraction, it becomes a really a conversation that's not immediately helpful, even though it could be helpful if we sit down and talk at link and that scenario. It's just not help yeah, here I hear you say in that that's that's good advice. For sure that helps you. Yeah, but yeah, if you if you just become with, like said, some of the modern literature that's coming out now on system

35:16 system racism and white pullage a thing like that, you really it's it's very deep and so you're not going to come to the resolution in those quick conversations, I don't believe. Yeah, well, I want us to shift the conversation just a little bit here, if we can, and talk about pro life issues in the black community and just your experience with that, because a lot of folks don't understand why the black community, from my perspective, because it has disproportionally abortion, is disproportionately affected the black community. A lot of folks don't understand why these issues aren't addressed in the black community. Or maybe they are and we're just not hearing it, obviously, because we're not, you know, involved on regular basis within the black community. whateverything. You know, put air quots there, because, I mean we're talking about different communities and segments of communities. But within the black community are these visions talked about? And if they're not talked about, then why? And if they are, how are they addressed? Yeah, I find from I mean from the political groups. You know, one of the that is a big promise of politics, right, because you have your groups like the Naacp and the congressional black concus in these who are basically very inner time with Plant parenthood and these mutual relationships, and so for the black community it's kind of it's like, Oh, at that date it's okay for them, you know, they're they're great, will plan firehoods. I can be okay plan a parenthood.

36:49 But I think that the portion issue in general is not talked about in our community and I think because of it's killed, it's affected so many what people right, it's something that honestly, and Dad, my mom listening to this, but it's something I've never even with my mom. I've never asked, you know. I know that I have several friends who have had abortions, that when I was growing up, my teenage years, and they've never said anything else about it. It's so it's something that is not it's happening, but it's not talked about. And there you saying it's more like there's a shame factor there because so many have been affected by abortion, or it's kind of like the skeletons in the closet sort of thing. I think it's a I think it's a lot of skeletons in the closet that families don't talk about.

37:37 And so it is and you think about it from when you talk when and it's there's kind of a general silence, I would say. Right. So then you have somebody like me, as always, talking about it, you know, and I might get sometimes I'll get messages from people or even a family, you know family that says, you know, I had an abortion and you know this is a very important issue for me. Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. You know, I've talked to black women that I've gone to church with over time. Is I've talked more about a board portion. They started to say, you know, I've had I've had two abortions. I've had four abortions people that I would have never thought or knew. So it's just a very there's just a general silence about it, and so I and I think that's more of a reason to talk about it, because I do want to see people healed right, I want to see people healed in Jesus and not carrying the ground. And I would you know, we need more post aboard of ministries and Black Churches. But then even just thinking about the abortion issue, how to you know that it's a sin and how to you know that it's taking innocent human life? You just don't hear that in sermons. You don't hear that in discussions at all, and so there's kind of this under and I think what it is like.

39:02 You know, we were talking earlier about this oppressor oppressed situation right where the where the oppressed. Someone who feels oppressed for so long they will tend to oppress someone else. So it's almost like killing our own is okay, right. It is something that's accepted. It's something that we don't you know, we don't talk about a whole lot, but the statistics speak for themselves. So it's happening on a regular, accelerated basis. But then when we have a police officer who killed, you know, who unfairly kills one of us, then that is the time that we speak out right and we get infuriated.

39:49 So there is just this dope, this very double double standard in our community. I mean when you talking about things, even with those point like the I think it was plant parenthood campaign, or may have been the now campaign, shout your abortion, you know, remember talk about your portion, shout your abortion. Those were who was at educated white women who are doing that right. Yeah, you don't see a lot of black women participating in these days. Now Plant parent who has had some targeted campaigns to try to bring black women into that and they have participated, but on a like on a everyday level of the average person, you just don't see black people shouting their abortion, and so it's it is very taboo, but it continues to happen repeatedly, obviously. And so yeah, I don't know. I mean there's not a I don't think there's a a answer in terms of why that is, but I know that that needs to change. I think yeah, yeah, one of the things said, I would echo that you are saying about how it so needs to change. Recently I did have a a woman, a mother, and her mother's not, for me, very abortion minded.

41:00 I don't even know why they stopped. But as the discussion preceded, the mother of the pregnant daughter admitted that she had had a number of abortions and then her daughter hadn't known that. She had known maybe her mother had had one or two, but her mother hadn't had a number of them. And then the mother proceeded to to cry and talk about the pain and the sorrow and the despair that had been hidden from this daughter. And ultimately the daughter got on the RV chose life. But it struck me how, when any sin is in darkness, it's hidden, it just grows, it multiplies and if the children are seeing that, they know their MOMS have had abortions, but it's never talked about it, it's never talked about in a negative way, but they do what they've what they see and what they learned from their parents, and so it's perpetuated. Yeah, and if you don't hear about it, you know if you're going to church every Sunday and you never heard about it and no one talk I mean you, I had no idea how to think about abortion, you know, and so until when I want, well even after I got safe, I just I never thought about it, I never heard about it and and it was just it was through radio.

42:17 I heard a radio and information ad and I just started thinking about it more. But it's just it's not something that's talked about. Now you do have people like Bishop Patrick Root, and I think he's up in Riley, who is so outspoken, and then you have one of your votings and those of those who were just, you know, all about pro life issues and Benjamin I send Benjaman's rack. Aster Gabriel Rodgers here in in Charlotte speaks about the issue of abortion a regular basis. He's one of the churches you mentioned that comes out to the prayer walks. These men have got a just awesome in addressing the issue. Yeah, yeah, Bitch. When Watson is he's might. He was a nfl he played in the NFL. He just retired.

43:00 He's my pastor son. He's my pastor's oldest son and he's actually spoken at the marks for the life and he's doing he's working on a pro life documentary, he's trying to get more black people to talk about it and for it to be more mainstream. Again in our peasers, people that are hurting and there is this idea that again out of side, out of mind. You just you get over you just pray, get over it, move on and don't talk about it. And so, like Vicki was saying, with the young girl with the abortion, amount of girl who did had no idea that our mother had an abortion. You just don't, you know, it's just kind of a secret. And then sometimes with US black prolifers, I've noticed that we can be more focused on our just come from political perspective.

43:45 Yeah, I'm to try to to try to talk to black people about you know, you know, and we don't start at the heart of the issue, which is, you know, when you which is a humanity, because when we as as black people, when we accept that abortion is okay and as acceptable, I mean we are we are reaffirming the idea that human beings, that they're human beings of less value and worth. And so where we those ideas that even racist individuals may have against us, those ideas that Jim crow fought against, those ideas that that were prevalent during slavery and the reason for the civil war and these things. So we're we're reiterating the ideas that have perpetuated against us throughout, you know, throughout American history. So, yeah, right, do you do you find, I know you shared a little bit earlier, in your experience in being a black woman who is pro life? Do you find that you get pushed back within African American circles being pro life? And I know you said you had some people to reach out to you who's you have shared past abortions and they're reaching out to you, and obviously in a positive way, but you get some negative reactions to I guess absolutely. Yeah, it becomes so you get the so the the what happens is the more at spoken. It's some people are just quiet and they'll just, you know, they disapprove quietly. But then you have, you know, the people who, you know, call you the traders and the uncle Tom's and and the cellouts and the coons and that you're just playing along.

45:20 They think that you are. Again, think about that, like I'm really glad that you talked about the semi racism thing earlier, the idea of it, because they you know, again, you know, kind of going back to that, I'm there are these disparities sometimes in a in a general sense, with some economic issues and things like that, even though it's not all that's not always an issue of injustice. It's just sometimes that's just how things are for certain reasons. But it's almost like, okay, pro life is a that's a white conservative evangelical issue, you know. An't know. What I wanted to get to is that this idea that, you know, it is a Republican Democrat issue and that's why there's there's this kind of unwillingness to address the issue of abortion the black community. So you're you're kind of reiterating that, I guess. Well, yeah, it's like, you know, because the idea is that, okay, if you're black, you should be fighting for things like, you know, equal pay and reparations and black rights and these sort of things, and and black you should be fighting for, you know, against the legal system, you know, and things like that, or neighborhood you know, you'd should be fighting for neighborhood development and poor community for minority communities and first the school system, flip public school system in the inner city fighting for abortion. That is again, that's a wide evangelical, Upper Club, middle upper class issue. That's that. That's their fight and you are ignoring your community by being a part of that. So

46:53 that becomes the idea. And so but I think through through you, through educating. I mean I have several, you know, black friends that we're not pro life and not in just because they didn't they never thought about it, you know, they just it's not something I would do. But you know somebody wants to do you know it. You know they can do it. So that's the beauty you have of understanding, you know, some prolife apologetics and some training and how to have conversations, because all times that that happens in conversations one on one and through messages and tests and phone calls and things like that. So that's why I'm still going to say what I have to say and because there are people who are being affected and who are hearing it. There's some people who are going to call you to sell out because they believe that you have sold out your people and your the causes that are important to us and that you folk for focusing on abortion again, because we don't talk about abortion as a community and we don't talk about the devastating effects and abortion on our community right and so it's it can be kind of multifaceted the responses, but there are people who aren't seeing the truth and seeing the light. And so with like you know what, regardless, you know, truth is truth and we have to stand on for us God in the process.

48:07 So yeah, well, thank God we've got a Godly woman like you and and you're speaking out in the way that you are and you're able to just confront these issues head on and bring the Gospel into the equation or at the forefront of the conversation, because that is ultimately what's going to change the issue of racism and the issue of abortion and whatever other sins we deal with as human beings. It's the Gospel. Yeah, well, you know, even with racism, you know, we have to talk me when in conversations. I mean you can, you know, say racism is is is a sin. You know, I may not be racist, but there's sins in my heart right and we all have sin or of some sort. And so let's you know, God is good. God is perfect, he's holy and he can save anybody, you know, and so even even through racism, God can penetrate hearts and change hearts. But it's seen as it is seen as the issue of our day and as the kind of the unforgivable sin.

49:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's a sad reality. It's like even again, me, as a white Christian man, I'm sometimes like I don't know what I can say and what I can't say without getting getting in the the PR police after me. So I just say what I feel like the word of God says and just let the Lord deal with but it's a difficult time to live in. As far as the things that you feel like you can say, the truth, I feel like you can say without having a terrible backlash. And of course, you know, we've seen some of that in media and and all of that recently. The wortion is, I mean the the abortion clinic is the I. That is a war zone already, and then you add a racial tension war on top of that. That's going on in media and it's just a, you know, the perfect storm for you know, an explosion Alma. Yeah, and it is. But you know, from from a positive aspect. I see what's happening out at the abortion center in many ways as being like on a microcoss and the way to heal racial tension, because they, I think, overwhelmingly, at least the sideball counclers I know, love people because they're people made in the image of God and they are reaching now to these women, not because they're black or white, but because their women who are in a desperate place, feeling that killing their child is an answer, and we have a different answer, the aid, a Godly, Gospel driven answer and s and so worn. It

50:44 connects them to our humanity and we're connected to their humanity, which what I'm hearing you saying is the absolute crucial thing to do. When and that that happens regularly out there. Yeah, well, and and those. You see that all the time. And people don't that's one thing people don't see. Oh, white people don't care, you know, and these things. But then I see you, know you, Vicky, you know you guys on the RV with this young lady. Think about this. When you come to when a when a woman comes to an abortion clinic, are young girl comes abortion clinic. That's probably the lowest point of her life right. Yeah, and you're and you're there being Christ hands and feet and meet her there and in standing there for her in the gap. So talk about I mean, if you want to talk about a picture of of love, of true love, of sacrificial love, of love for humanity, of if there's any sort of picture of love, virtual unity and love, it's on that sidewalk.

51:49 You know, it's people are as. People are reaching across racial lines to save lives, literally save lives, and to offer help resources and it's in a total change in direction and one's like, hmm, it's the thing. Yeah, I agree. That's awesome. I appreciate you that that. That's actually a great note for us to end this podcast on soly. Very encouraging, Melissa. It's very encouraging having you own and it's very enlightening to hear your respect. I appreciate you taking the time to do that. If people want to get in touch with you and Devin, how do they get in touch with you? Sure you can email us, Melissa Palu at Rassio Christie Dot Org. I know that's a mouthful with between my name and our ministry.

52:38 Yeah, put it. Didn't up at it in the show notes at the at the bottom of the podcast, a link there. Do you guys what I and I you know I do talks, and Devin does you know? We do pro if apologetic talks, helping people to think through the issue of abortion, how to defend the PROLFE position. But then also, you know, the race is the issue of race and talking about and racial reconciliation. That's something that's very much on my heart and I fortunate as a part of that those presentations that I do. It has to be because it is again the number one killer of black people and we has to be an issue that's addressed and talk about. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Melissa, again, I appreciate you coming on. We're going to wrap this thing up and right, I appreciate you guys who who listen and just if you need to get in touch with me, it's deep parks. It cities for lifecom. You get in touch with the Vicki. It's V Cassey Org at cities for lifecom and Melissa shared her contact info there. So, guys, we appreciate you guys listening. Hopefully you'll share this podcast. Hopefully was a blessing to you. Until next time, God bless me. Ove for love, give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost me my love. No, sins too precious, and some you