Abortion and Racism in The US - Interview with Melissa Pellew

WEBVTT100:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.719If you want to talk about apicture of true love, of sacrificial love,200:00:04.719 --> 00:00:12.230of love for humanity. If there'sany sort of picture of virtual unity300:00:12.310 --> 00:00:16.550and love, it's on that sidelaw, as people are reaching across racial400:00:16.710 --> 00:00:23.059lines to literally save lives and tooffer help resources, and it's in a500:00:23.460 --> 00:00:30.620total change in direction and one's like. I Am Yours, I am yours,600:00:31.140 --> 00:00:36.049I am yours. Send Me Lord, I am your. Welcome to700:00:36.090 --> 00:00:39.490the Gospel Center pro life podcast.In this episode we have an interview with800:00:39.609 --> 00:00:45.409Melissa Pollu, who talks to usabout abortion and racism in America. Please900:00:45.450 --> 00:00:51.719join us as we cover this topicfrom a Gospel Center perspective. I felt1000:00:52.159 --> 00:01:04.670show, passish, touch your useme love. I've welcome to the Gospel1100:01:04.670 --> 00:01:08.189Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you, guys listening. We have a special1200:01:08.230 --> 00:01:12.989guest with us today and we're goingto talk about a special subject and a1300:01:14.069 --> 00:01:17.510difficult subject for many of us todeal with and to think through, but1400:01:17.549 --> 00:01:21.060hopefully we'll be able to help youguys think through this subject together, and1500:01:21.219 --> 00:01:25.819it's the subject of abortion and lightof race relations and just with all the1600:01:25.939 --> 00:01:27.900things that we've got going on inour nation with the kill think of George1700:01:27.939 --> 00:01:34.010Floyd and and all the other issuesthat surround this. We really thought that1800:01:34.129 --> 00:01:37.890we need to talk about abortion inlight of those things. And who better1900:01:37.969 --> 00:01:41.930to talk about this with then MelissaPolu. She's been involved in prolife ministry2000:01:41.969 --> 00:01:46.209for a long time. When Ifirst got involved in prolife ministry she was2100:01:46.290 --> 00:01:49.519involved and we've known each other fora long time. Heard and her husband2200:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.640Devin just been a blessing to theMinistry of Cities for life and so we2300:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.319wanted to bring her own and wealso have Vicky on the line. Just2400:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.040so you guys know. We're ona skype call here, so the audio2500:02:00.120 --> 00:02:04.590might not be exactly what it normallyis, but we hope it will still2600:02:04.590 --> 00:02:07.509be a blessing you guys. Butyes, say hey Vicki, hey there2700:02:07.550 --> 00:02:12.229everyone. Hopefully you can hear Vickywell, and then just introduce yourself real2800:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.590quick, Melissa, and what youEndevin are doing there on the college campus?2900:02:15.340 --> 00:02:20.219Absolutely so I'm my name is MelissaPellu, my husband's Devon. We3000:02:20.379 --> 00:02:24.340are the chapter directors at went fromUniversity and rock kill, South Carolina,3100:02:24.979 --> 00:02:30.770with a ministry callrational Christie, whichis Latin for the reason of Christ.3200:02:30.810 --> 00:02:38.449So we do apologetics evangelism ministry,where we are training college students to understand3300:02:38.490 --> 00:02:40.729more about what they believe why theybelieve it. So we deal with the3400:02:40.770 --> 00:02:46.120number of different issues associated with alot of the ideas, secular ideas that3500:02:46.159 --> 00:02:51.759are kind of infiltrated the college campus, and then also evangelized students of other3600:02:52.080 --> 00:02:58.120worldviews, whether they are Muslim orskeptic, a fist, what have you.3700:02:58.280 --> 00:03:00.710So we deal with quite a bitof issues related to, you know,3800:03:00.830 --> 00:03:06.550God's existence and how we contrast theBible, but also these ethical issues3900:03:06.789 --> 00:03:09.710like abortion, we deal with quitea bit. So our training on the4000:03:09.789 --> 00:03:14.860sidewalk has really been beneficial. Just, you know, being on the sidewalk4100:03:14.900 --> 00:03:21.860and talking to abortion minded women andfamilies has been very beneficial as we're communicating4200:03:21.979 --> 00:03:25.340how to have those conversations and,in the pro defending the pro life issue4300:03:25.620 --> 00:03:30.650on the college campus with students whomany times don't affirm the sanctity of human4400:03:30.729 --> 00:03:36.250life. So we are very thankful. You can look us at Rashio Christie4500:03:36.250 --> 00:03:39.930at went at university and we're justblessed to be here today. Yeah,4600:03:39.969 --> 00:03:45.719appreciate you coming on and we dida podcast a couple of months ago with4700:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.360Devon talking about some issues with prolife apologetics and things like that. It4800:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.879was real blessing to us, realblessing to have him join us on that.4900:03:53.800 --> 00:03:59.669But we've got you on and anybodyguess why we would have Melissa own5000:03:59.909 --> 00:04:02.110when we're talking about race relations?Why would we have you on Melyssa?5100:04:02.990 --> 00:04:06.949Well, if we were on video, I mean if you evident, but5200:04:08.550 --> 00:04:12.699I am indeed black and and,like you said, being involved in pro5300:04:12.819 --> 00:04:16.740life activism for so long on thesidewalk and just in different areas, some5400:04:17.139 --> 00:04:23.019doing conferences and trainings and things likethat, you know having that that experience,5500:04:23.100 --> 00:04:28.170but it is not a commonality.It's not very common to have a5600:04:28.610 --> 00:04:31.449lot of black prolife activists. SoI think that that's that might be why5700:04:31.610 --> 00:04:33.930you brought me on. I'm notsure, though. Yeah. Well,5800:04:34.009 --> 00:04:38.370first and foremost we brought you onbecause you're a you're a godly woman that5900:04:38.449 --> 00:04:42.199has a godly perspective. So that'sthe first thing. But you happen to6000:04:42.240 --> 00:04:46.800be a black woman and you havesome experience in dealing with race from a6100:04:46.879 --> 00:04:50.240perspective that I don't have and thatVicky don't have, and so we thought6200:04:50.279 --> 00:04:54.110to bring you in this conversation because, yeah, like you said, there6300:04:54.310 --> 00:04:59.750is a unfortunately a scarcity of blackindividuals within the pro life movement, even6400:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.269though it's becoming more and more fromwhat I see. Is that what you're6500:05:02.269 --> 00:05:05.990seeing to yeah, I think peopleare starting to at least think about the6600:05:06.029 --> 00:05:11.060issue a lot more. But I'mreally been blessed to see on the Saturday6700:05:11.100 --> 00:05:14.660mornings with the prayer walks, alot of black churches in the Charlotte area6800:05:15.100 --> 00:05:20.420really becoming active and participating. Sofrom that perspective I'm really encouraged. Yeah,6900:05:21.009 --> 00:05:26.769sure as well. So you know, like I said, before we7000:05:26.850 --> 00:05:30.089get started with this, I'm goingto ask you some questions. It's going7100:05:30.089 --> 00:05:31.970to be real relational and I justwant you to talk. I want you7200:05:32.009 --> 00:05:36.160to share your heart. I wantpeople to understand from a black woman's perspective7300:05:36.360 --> 00:05:41.399the issue of abortion and dealing with, you know, race and and dealing7400:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.839with abortion and light of race andall of that, and I think it7500:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.199will help us to understand because,you know, let's face it, lessen,7600:05:47.240 --> 00:05:49.589you've been out there, Vicky,you've been out there for many years7700:05:49.709 --> 00:05:54.149too, and you seen the majorityof the women and going into the the7800:05:54.230 --> 00:05:59.110trabe abortion clinic are unfortunately black womenthat are going in, and so it's7900:05:59.110 --> 00:06:03.269a reality that we deal with ona regular basis, dealing with rays,8000:06:03.379 --> 00:06:09.100dealing with women who are not thesame color as us and trying to see8100:06:09.100 --> 00:06:13.819from their perspective. Trying to seeme from a woman's perspective is really hard,8200:06:13.899 --> 00:06:15.699but trying to see from a blackwoman's perspective is even harder, you8300:06:15.740 --> 00:06:20.529know. So we want to getsome perspective from you and I do want8400:06:20.529 --> 00:06:25.290to talk about kind of the largerpicture of things, and that's where I8500:06:25.370 --> 00:06:28.410want to start, if you don'tmind. I don't want to start with8600:06:28.569 --> 00:06:33.759the idea of systematic racism or systemicracism. Is this in your opinion and8700:06:33.920 --> 00:06:40.600from your experience? Is this realityin our country? Yeah, so that8800:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.319is, you know, a veryhot button issue right, systemic racism,8900:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.189and you know, Struck, youknow, are some people call it structural9000:06:49.389 --> 00:06:56.470racism or institutional racism. Those arekind of synonyms and I just to give9100:06:56.670 --> 00:07:02.459a general popular definition of what we'retalking about for those who are not aware.9200:07:03.100 --> 00:07:06.819When we're talking about racism, youknow, the center of racism in9300:07:06.939 --> 00:07:13.819terms of, you know, individualswho have racist intent and motives, and9400:07:13.939 --> 00:07:20.209they prejudge people and they have racistattitudes towards someone else or attitude superiority based9500:07:20.250 --> 00:07:25.889on in color. So we wouldrecognize that as racism, I think all9600:07:25.970 --> 00:07:32.319people would. And then systemic racism, the general popular definition would be something9700:07:32.399 --> 00:07:41.759along the lines of the social oreconomic, political, educational legal systems as9800:07:41.800 --> 00:07:47.069well, that they would say thatthose systems in our country are designed in9900:07:47.230 --> 00:07:58.269a systematic way, of foundational way, to oppress minorities into somehow grant or10000:07:58.550 --> 00:08:03.180set white people up for success orsome sort of too in a superior way.10100:08:03.699 --> 00:08:11.220So the systems systemically, the systemsof the country are all designed to10200:08:11.819 --> 00:08:18.370basically oppressed black people and it's justand so it from the perspective of someone10300:08:18.410 --> 00:08:20.769who holds to that, not myself, I'm just saying from the perspective of10400:08:20.889 --> 00:08:24.889someone who holds it out. Sure, yeah, when they look at the10500:08:24.970 --> 00:08:31.720world or they look at opportunities,they would say they would feel that they're10600:08:31.720 --> 00:08:37.200all there's a minority, would feellike they are set up for failure from10700:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.750the moment that they're born, thatthey're not on equal footing or a equal10800:08:41.870 --> 00:08:46.070set up. Think that things arenot equal, equally set up for minorities10900:08:46.110 --> 00:08:52.190and white people. So part ofthe and I'll tell you that that a11000:08:52.429 --> 00:08:54.389question is hard to answer, kindof kind of a loaded question, and11100:08:54.509 --> 00:08:56.539it was, it was intended tobe. I wanted to kind of get11200:08:56.620 --> 00:09:01.379your reaction on this. Yeah,yeah, and and I was just I11300:09:01.460 --> 00:09:07.820want to pack watch hard to answerbecause there are so there's just their various11400:09:07.860 --> 00:09:09.929definitions, even I mean if yougo to us, you know, to11500:09:11.090 --> 00:09:15.929some scholarship and academic and a sexon the seculo campus, versus some of11600:09:16.009 --> 00:09:18.250the popular definitions that are in alot of the books that are are out11700:09:18.370 --> 00:09:24.639now. But the and that's whyI think that the issue itself, it's11800:09:24.759 --> 00:09:30.840so it's so ambiguous, this ideaof systemic racism, that I don't think11900:09:30.840 --> 00:09:35.720it's something that we can that aperson can hold tightly onto and a firm12000:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.509in a dogmatic way. So Iknow it's not a yes or no answer,12100:09:43.470 --> 00:09:45.990but yeah, it's ex actually kindof what I was what I was12200:09:46.029 --> 00:09:48.429aiming at. Vicky, you wantto pipe in on this. Well,12300:09:48.629 --> 00:09:52.059no, I actually I totally agreewith you the list said, because I've12400:09:52.059 --> 00:09:56.980been really grappling and and I justwrote a note to a friend who is12500:09:56.220 --> 00:10:01.700very much involved in in, Iguess, eradicating systemic racism and said the12600:10:01.940 --> 00:10:07.059more I read, actually the moreconfused then it is. Right, it12700:10:07.570 --> 00:10:11.490is a confusing issue an area,because what you're looking at, basically,12800:10:11.889 --> 00:10:16.409it mean it's a social theory.Right. So with theories what you're doing12900:10:16.490 --> 00:10:20.559is you're looking at data and you'relooking at different things. And so what13000:10:20.759 --> 00:10:26.840the person who's saying that the systemicracist social theorist? They're looking at disparities,13100:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.879right, so they're saying there's economicdisparities between whites and blacks, there's13200:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.870educational disparities, there's private property disparities, right, so they're they're looking at13300:10:39.029 --> 00:10:43.830those disparities and saying, well,it has there has to be some systemic13400:10:43.990 --> 00:10:48.230reason that that is happening. Butthis does the the problem when you just13500:10:48.710 --> 00:10:54.019when you just narrow down to that, is that you you that you don't13600:10:54.059 --> 00:11:00.379take into account other factors, thingslike marriage, right we I mean even13700:11:00.379 --> 00:11:05.210when you look at economics with blackchildren, if they are raised in a13800:11:05.330 --> 00:11:11.690two parent family, there's only abouta seven percent poverty rate. Okay,13900:11:11.090 --> 00:11:16.769and that that's and you compare thatwith white children who are raised in a14000:11:16.850 --> 00:11:20.799two parent home, there's about atwenty two percent poverty rate. Okay,14100:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.600now that's so amazing statistic. Ihave never heard that. MMM. So,14200:11:24.759 --> 00:11:30.679yeah, black children raised in twoparent homes typically don't or not impoverished.14300:11:31.039 --> 00:11:33.750And so that and I think that. So that's that's what I'm saying.14400:11:33.750 --> 00:11:39.429It's trying. It's hard to blameor to pin these disparities solely on14500:11:41.149 --> 00:11:46.870this systemic issues when there are thesepersonal issues, these individual issues. They're's14600:11:46.950 --> 00:11:50.740these there's cultural issues on with,you know, again with marriage and with14700:11:50.980 --> 00:11:56.779audio, how think, mindsets andthat choices. It kind of it does14800:11:56.220 --> 00:12:03.490it. It does does remove personalresponsibility from the equation. Right, so14900:12:03.610 --> 00:12:07.370you're able to say that it's Ican't achieve this or I can't do this15000:12:07.490 --> 00:12:11.570where I'm doing this because things arejust set up and stacked against me.15100:12:13.090 --> 00:12:16.039And you know, things, whenwe really look at it, we don't15200:12:16.080 --> 00:12:22.879want to disparage. Think like ifwe're going to say that all these privilege,15300:12:22.960 --> 00:12:26.600like privilege, for instance, thatthere's things, I mean marriage privilege,15400:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.110like I brought up right, there'sprivilege when you're point into a family15500:12:31.269 --> 00:12:35.590with two parents. So we don'twant to take but we don't want to15600:12:35.710 --> 00:12:39.549destroy those in like marriage, forinstance, right, because there's this species.15700:12:39.629 --> 00:12:45.100Right. So it's just a veryabstract thing to me. Now they're15800:12:45.220 --> 00:12:50.580they're there. Can I believe theanswer is to just look at individual policies15900:12:50.059 --> 00:12:56.139and to see if there are policiesthat do harm, you know, black16000:12:56.259 --> 00:13:01.450people, whether intentional or unintentional.I think if you take that then it's16100:13:01.529 --> 00:13:07.610just it's more defined, it's morebased on real life and data and things16200:13:07.649 --> 00:13:11.769like that. But if, yeah, you're just this whole this, this16300:13:11.970 --> 00:13:16.679whole idea, that that's what's happened, it is take this whole idea and16400:13:16.799 --> 00:13:22.879we're looking at all these asperities withoutlooking at individual just maybe individual policies and16500:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.190things like that that that made needto be changed. But in general,16600:13:26.750 --> 00:13:31.389I just I don't hold firmly tothe idea of system and racism just because16700:13:31.429 --> 00:13:37.830it's ambiguous and I'd rather look atindividual areas where there may be some some16800:13:39.350 --> 00:13:41.059you know, some things that areunfair, and deal with it from that16900:13:41.220 --> 00:13:46.620perspective. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I did want to touch on that17000:13:46.659 --> 00:13:50.940again as a big picture question,because it's a question that a lot of17100:13:50.299 --> 00:13:52.860you know. We hear it again. It's like a buzz word in the17200:13:52.940 --> 00:13:56.730media systemic racism and this idea ofsystemic racism. And you know, when17300:13:56.769 --> 00:14:01.210certain statistics and certain things are laidout to me, I'm like, well,17400:14:01.289 --> 00:14:03.009yeah, there's a there's a systemin place. It seems to be17500:14:03.210 --> 00:14:09.169bent against minorities, against black people, and you know, but then you17600:14:09.210 --> 00:14:13.000look at other statistics it's like likewhat you shared, it's like and,17700:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.000all things equal, there's not thissystemic racism. And so it's it's really17800:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.960confusing and it's really hard for me, again as a white man, to17900:14:20.200 --> 00:14:24.240come from that perspective and to seethat. And so, yeah, I18000:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.470wanted to hear your perspective, butnow just to kind of bring it into18100:14:26.669 --> 00:14:31.309to what we really want to talkabout, which is the issue of abortion18200:14:31.870 --> 00:14:35.350and racings, because there's no doubtyou mentioned it when we first started.18300:14:35.509 --> 00:14:41.700The Sin of racism, the sinof racism exists absolutely. I think you18400:14:41.700 --> 00:14:46.179would probably agree that it's going toexist until Jesus returns, no matter how18500:14:46.220 --> 00:14:50.940much we try to fight against it. It's like any other sin and it18600:14:50.059 --> 00:14:52.970does have its own unique issues thatit causes. Of course, I'm not18700:14:54.049 --> 00:14:56.330trying to marginalize that as just anyother sin. It has issues that it18800:14:56.409 --> 00:15:03.169makes but, like every sin,only Jesus Christ is gonna Remedy that.18900:15:03.210 --> 00:15:07.919That's that's a reality and I appreciateyou saying that, but it does at19000:15:09.000 --> 00:15:15.840least the issue of race and abortiondo come up in a lot of conversations19100:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.759and and, just like I said, on a daytoday basis in our outreach,19200:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.789we deal with young black women goinginto the abortion centers and I've been19300:15:22.870 --> 00:15:28.190called a racist so many time Ican't even count. And I'm sure you,19400:15:28.350 --> 00:15:31.230Melissa, and you can crackt meif I'm wrong, seet out there19500:15:31.590 --> 00:15:35.860at the abortion planning you probably beencalled a racist or called with it whatever.19600:15:37.059 --> 00:15:39.980Yeah, the names. Yeah,that I want to repeat. But,19700:15:39.059 --> 00:15:43.340yeah, sell out things like that, of course. Yeah, yeah,19800:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.820that's kind of kind of funny theway that people just kind of throw19900:15:46.860 --> 00:15:52.490these terms out there. But howhow do the issues in your mind of20000:15:52.129 --> 00:16:00.330racism and abortion intersect in the Universityof America? All right, so again20100:16:00.610 --> 00:16:06.200we have from the racism exists,and so we because the hardest sinful right,20200:16:06.440 --> 00:16:11.399we love darkness rather than light,and as long as we are in20300:16:11.480 --> 00:16:14.039the condition, we can, youknow, as long as we're human,20400:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.830we can have sinful attitudes and racismis a sinful way of thinking and looking20500:16:18.830 --> 00:16:22.110at the world now and know andwe look at the issue of abortion,20600:16:22.750 --> 00:16:29.549we look at the reality that abortionkills unborn onoraty children at a much higher20700:16:29.590 --> 00:16:34.340rate then the national average. Andwe're talking about a we're talking about minority20800:16:34.539 --> 00:16:42.779population where you have sixteen million blackchildren who have died due to abortion.20900:16:44.340 --> 00:16:49.610We're talking about the number one killerof the black community, where it's five21000:16:49.690 --> 00:16:55.730times higher for abortion to occur ina black family than a white family.21100:16:55.850 --> 00:16:59.970So when we look at the historyof abortion and we bring it so looking21200:17:00.049 --> 00:17:03.480just looking at those that of abortionnow being the number one killer black community,21300:17:03.839 --> 00:17:08.240we look at the history with withthe abortion movement in America, of21400:17:08.319 --> 00:17:15.509course, Miss Margaret Sanger was theproponent and she had very her thoughts were21500:17:15.950 --> 00:17:22.230based on a eugenics model and Eugenics, and I know you have had talked21600:17:22.230 --> 00:17:26.150to devil with that in a previousshow. A eugenics model is basically design21700:17:26.190 --> 00:17:30.700where you look at humans based ontheir their potential, their function, what21800:17:30.859 --> 00:17:37.380they can what they can give tosociety and some people are considered non useful21900:17:37.619 --> 00:17:42.339and that in that way, andso black people because of all of the22000:17:44.329 --> 00:17:48.450you know, the slavery and allcivil rights, all these all these things22100:17:48.450 --> 00:17:52.970that we're going through, the largelyuneducated black population. They were included in22200:17:53.170 --> 00:18:00.440that eugenics model of those that MargaretSinger deemed unworthy. The neger project,22300:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.920I think it was one thousand ninehundred and thirty two, was aimed at22400:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.960the black community, where the pastorswere encouraging the use of birth control and22500:18:10.200 --> 00:18:17.630and that. So population control iswas basically the idea. And if we22600:18:17.750 --> 00:18:21.430look at the numbers we have,we see a population control issue. So22700:18:21.589 --> 00:18:26.660when a population targeted because of theirskin color, that is racism right.22800:18:27.220 --> 00:18:34.019And we look at the presence ofthe abortion clinics in poor and minority areas,22900:18:34.579 --> 00:18:41.450that is a marketing tool that isdesigned to normalize abortion and to target23000:18:41.569 --> 00:18:48.009that community. When you place abusiness in a certain community, you are23100:18:48.170 --> 00:18:52.569targeting that community. Is there fora purpose. And so the fact that23200:18:52.170 --> 00:18:57.240the the roots of abortion were racewere based on a eugenics model that targeted23300:18:57.359 --> 00:19:03.079black people for Population Control. Andthen the fact that we now have force23400:19:03.119 --> 00:19:07.440planets in majority of black neighborhoods,we have now abortionist in number one and23500:19:07.519 --> 00:19:15.109killer of black people. It iscompletely tied to racism because of the targeting23600:19:15.630 --> 00:19:21.269based on skin color. Right italso, I like what you said the23700:19:21.990 --> 00:19:27.940about the root issue, because Ithink the root issue is very similar in23800:19:29.779 --> 00:19:36.500the killing of the unborn and racism. In both cases the value, of23900:19:36.779 --> 00:19:44.609the value drinchic human value people groupis is questioned, is put into Questian24000:19:44.849 --> 00:19:49.289and and as soon as that happens, then you can harm that class of24100:19:49.329 --> 00:19:53.440humans because you feel that their valueis less than yours. And that's true24200:19:53.480 --> 00:19:57.599for the unborn and that's true forthe minorities. That has been true throughout24300:19:57.680 --> 00:20:06.440all who through right dehumanization of population, whether where there's the US, whether24400:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.630it's the blocks, you know nowit's babies. And one of the sad,24500:20:11.029 --> 00:20:15.990sad realities is when we look atcivil rights and we look at oppression24600:20:17.029 --> 00:20:21.269against black people, and you know, it's a I mean what the black24700:20:21.309 --> 00:20:25.140population has been through in this countryfrom forgery years, you know, from24800:20:25.220 --> 00:20:27.700slave before under years to where weare now. It's just remarkable in my24900:20:29.299 --> 00:20:33.579opinion. You know, it's justamazing what God has done through many people25000:20:33.619 --> 00:20:37.250who fought for rights and who stood, but oldly and courageously, for those25100:20:37.289 --> 00:20:41.369rights. But what you find itwhen people are oppressed for so long,25200:20:41.529 --> 00:20:51.559many times they become oppressors themselves,and this is sometimes very unconsciously because of25300:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.000a sense of a loss of powerand things of that nature. So we25400:20:55.200 --> 00:21:00.799now see black women, black familieskilling their own children, and this is25500:21:00.839 --> 00:21:06.990an act of oppression because, likeyou said, Vicki the dehumanization of that25600:21:07.269 --> 00:21:11.069child in the womb, and thatis what allows a part. That is25700:21:11.190 --> 00:21:17.349what's that is a a a process. That will you know that Lee city25800:21:17.430 --> 00:21:22.859children's death. So it's a verysad reality. That what happens, you25900:21:22.940 --> 00:21:29.220know, from the racist attitudes andturning the community and then people internal as26000:21:29.339 --> 00:21:34.170it all right and they themselves becomethe oppressors. That that is historically happened26100:21:34.210 --> 00:21:40.690in pretty much every other civilization aswell. Wow, right, yeah,26200:21:40.730 --> 00:21:45.009that's Melissa. That's that's a uniqueperspective there that you bring that up,26300:21:45.650 --> 00:21:48.960and that kind of brings me toanother one of the points that I want26400:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.880to touch on, because what youjust said, and you know I have26500:21:53.039 --> 00:21:56.359to process it. I take yourword for it and I believe you're telling26600:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.839me the truth. For sure,I have to processes, to think about26700:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.069it, but even if I didfully agree with what you just said.26800:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.309Can I even voice that? Andso what I'm asking is, you know,26900:22:07.549 --> 00:22:10.990is is it the place of,you know, for a pro life27000:22:11.069 --> 00:22:15.230white man like myself to say thingslike what you just said or to point27100:22:15.269 --> 00:22:18.579out some of the issues with planparenthood, you know, with Margaret saying?27200:22:18.660 --> 00:22:22.500I mean we got the toppling ofstatues across this country of confederate soldiers27300:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.299and all that. We're not goingto get into that subject. But as27400:22:26.339 --> 00:22:29.140I look at that, I'm thinking, man, they should be toppling the27500:22:29.180 --> 00:22:33.410statues of Margaret Singer and getting thesethings. It's just like provable as a27600:22:33.490 --> 00:22:37.009racist right. But is it mobis it my place, is it Vicki's27700:22:37.049 --> 00:22:41.690places as a white pro lifers toaddress those issues? And then, if27800:22:41.769 --> 00:22:45.519it is our plays, how dowe address those issues without it just being27900:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.319a landmine? You know what Imean? Yeah, I mean it's I28000:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.240mean it is a difficult area toto navigate through, you know, because28100:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.880you do want to be sensitive.But Truth is truth, right, the28200:22:56.960 --> 00:23:02.670word of God is is unchanging.It is our standard, and so my28300:23:02.950 --> 00:23:07.630shortance would be yes, you shouldaddress that, speak on that, talk28400:23:07.710 --> 00:23:14.180about that reality, because it isa sinful the ascent of abortion it has.28500:23:14.259 --> 00:23:19.059So it's the effects or self profoundon the black community and so yes,28600:23:19.220 --> 00:23:23.900I encourage my white brothers and sistersto talk about that and to not28700:23:25.380 --> 00:23:29.009in to not back down from God'struth. Now, as far as talking28800:23:29.049 --> 00:23:32.490about it and how we do it, I think that that is is maybe28900:23:33.170 --> 00:23:37.210more more of the the question denialof how do we do that? You29000:23:37.329 --> 00:23:41.480know, yeah, I guess thecontext that I'm speaking to is, you29100:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.759know, I think there's a nationalcontext, certainly for you pro life leaders,29200:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.000for politicians even to be speaking aboutthis, but the context primarily I'm29300:23:49.000 --> 00:23:53.680speaking to is at the abortion centerwith an abortion minded mom as I'm sharing29400:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.109some of the statistics and some ofthe things because, you know, you29500:23:57.230 --> 00:24:00.470get into those heated conversations, theywant to come over and set you straight29600:24:02.029 --> 00:24:07.309and sometimes I almost in well,I'm actually very careful and walking on eggshells29700:24:07.309 --> 00:24:11.099if I'd bring up the issues ofthe fact that that abortion clinic is located29800:24:11.140 --> 00:24:15.740in a minority neighborhood, that there'salso another abortion clinic just around the corner29900:24:15.019 --> 00:24:18.460and that you're not going to findthose abortion clinics in a white neighborhood,30000:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.579he is not going to find it. So I guess that's more the context30100:24:22.619 --> 00:24:25.849I'm speaking of. Is it myplace to say that? How do I30200:24:25.970 --> 00:24:29.890need to address that and not makeit into just a racial fight, because30300:24:29.890 --> 00:24:32.529that's not what I'm trying to getinto with an abortionnt of mom, you30400:24:32.609 --> 00:24:34.250know, all right, right,you're at that point. You don't mean30500:24:34.250 --> 00:24:37.799you're not trying to get into thedeeper issues of race and race relations.30600:24:37.920 --> 00:24:41.240Right, you want that. Youwant her to see that that child is30700:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.799worthy of life and that God designthat child and that she should not murder30800:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.759her child. So again, Ithink just and and and for being on30900:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.069the sidewalk, maybe I can,I can share some of the things I've31000:24:53.109 --> 00:24:57.150heard that I thought were insensitive.Yeah, yeah, please do that.31100:24:57.349 --> 00:25:03.910No, yeah, just saying that, you know, your black baby matters.31200:25:03.109 --> 00:25:07.339You're a black baby this and you'rea black baby that. I think31300:25:07.700 --> 00:25:10.980we need to be careful about sayingthat. I mean in this culture,31400:25:11.220 --> 00:25:15.539I mean Godi, people are sotriggered, you know, and we with31500:25:15.779 --> 00:25:18.059everything going on, we need tomaybe be careful about that. And just31600:25:18.420 --> 00:25:23.369even with you know, black,black unborn lives matter, just with that31700:25:23.529 --> 00:25:26.809whole thing with black lives matter,because it's such a power, you know,31800:25:27.329 --> 00:25:32.450it's such a convincing movement to alot of people. It can that31900:25:32.569 --> 00:25:34.960can trigger some things for people wherethey just shut down and they're not going32000:25:36.000 --> 00:25:38.039to talk to you or they're goingto make certain assumptions about you. I32100:25:38.160 --> 00:25:44.000think for those issues it is betterdealt with in an ongoing situation, like32200:25:44.039 --> 00:25:47.799if you're if you have someone thatyou're engaging, you know car that you32300:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.430that you stopped and that you wantit in your talking to them. You32400:25:51.509 --> 00:25:56.390can talk to them about how thisplace is is a place that is,32500:25:56.309 --> 00:26:00.190you know, as a white supremacisttool. You know, I think in32600:26:00.309 --> 00:26:03.430a conversation that's very good. Idon't think that it should be the first32700:26:03.470 --> 00:26:07.259thing you bring up, but Ithink I think it does have its place32800:26:07.579 --> 00:26:12.859because ultimately this is a humanity issueand so in that that's one thing too.32900:26:12.900 --> 00:26:18.059I think that even in the withinthe prolife community, we don't we33000:26:18.690 --> 00:26:22.049with the George Floyd and the BriannaTaylor and the modd Aubrey. We don't.33100:26:22.049 --> 00:26:26.450I don't think. I don't thinkthe answers just to deflect to olbortion33200:26:26.609 --> 00:26:29.970use. The first is number onekiller, you know, and those case33300:26:30.250 --> 00:26:33.440is automatically because I think we havean opportunity to say that was wrong what33400:26:33.559 --> 00:26:37.359happened to George Floyd, you know, for that police officer to kill him33500:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.599that way. I mean we watchingthat video and this man asking for his33600:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.240mom, you know, regardless ofthis past choices or that, but asking33700:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.150for his mom and being murdered rightthere on a video in front of us.33800:26:48.670 --> 00:26:52.269That's difficult. So I think wecan say, you know, that33900:26:52.390 --> 00:26:57.710those things are horrible and that Goddoes not approve inappropriate situation. Is Not34000:26:57.829 --> 00:27:03.019every racial incident. Obviously is ais a is an issue of racism that's34100:27:03.140 --> 00:27:06.380reported in the media, but verifywill issues. We want to show that34200:27:06.500 --> 00:27:11.019we care right that the that wecare about humanity and just it's such a34300:27:11.220 --> 00:27:15.809touchy issue. But I just thinksometimes if you're on if you're on a34400:27:15.930 --> 00:27:22.049microphone and just talking about race ordoing a race education class, isn't necessarily34500:27:22.289 --> 00:27:26.369the best time, at least rightnow. Yeah, but but I think34600:27:26.450 --> 00:27:32.359talking about humanity itself, I thinkthat is a great way to reach people,34700:27:32.839 --> 00:27:37.920you know, because the idea whatmedia is reinforcing in a lot of34800:27:37.960 --> 00:27:41.599the meet the books now and everythingis that. You know, white people34900:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.950don't see you as a person.Why? People don't see it as equal.35000:27:45.430 --> 00:27:48.069You know, white people are partof this system. This you know,35100:27:48.230 --> 00:27:52.150when we talk about systemic racism,white people are part of that whole35200:27:52.269 --> 00:27:56.269system that's holding you down. Theydon't care about you and they just want35300:27:56.309 --> 00:28:00.740to oppress you and they think thatthey're better that you. So you awhere35400:28:00.980 --> 00:28:06.740that this is a monset that isbeing that a person not not not necessarily35500:28:06.900 --> 00:28:08.180all the time, a hundred percentof the time, but many times a35600:28:08.220 --> 00:28:12.890black person will that's their perception comingto the situation, right, and so35700:28:14.170 --> 00:28:17.529these they pull in and they seea bunch of white people there. There's35800:28:17.569 --> 00:28:22.730got a we gotta somehow connect withtheir humanity, and that's really important because35900:28:22.890 --> 00:28:26.599we want to show them that they'rethat we're all equal, and so is36000:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.200that child. You know, rightand now I did, all made in36100:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.359the image of God, and Ithink that I'm uniting and one of the36200:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.559most powerful things we can say interms of connecting as human beings. We36300:28:37.640 --> 00:28:42.269are all made in God's image.Slogans that I use now even are black36400:28:42.349 --> 00:28:47.869lives are sacred. You know,black lives matter to God. I think36500:28:48.230 --> 00:28:52.349those, you know, even signsthat say things like that or hell,36600:28:52.470 --> 00:28:59.140I figure helpful, you know,because it shows that we care about the36700:28:59.259 --> 00:29:03.099sanctity of all human life. Youknow. So, yeah, but it36800:29:03.220 --> 00:29:06.980is difficult, Daniel. You knowit's even difficult for me times to talk36900:29:06.980 --> 00:29:10.609of what might be easier for meto talk about it then maybe for yourself.37000:29:11.609 --> 00:29:14.769So well, you know, I'lltell you just from experience, in37100:29:14.849 --> 00:29:19.210which you know these rays as much, because, you know, recently especially,37200:29:19.329 --> 00:29:25.039I have stayed away from any conversationsabout race, about the fact that37300:29:25.160 --> 00:29:27.000more black babies are killed by abortionthat are born. I mean, I37400:29:27.079 --> 00:29:32.720don't I don't even say that commonlynow as I'm talking to abortion minded women37500:29:32.839 --> 00:29:36.359or calling out there. I justdon't make race an issue because to me37600:29:36.599 --> 00:29:38.109really it's not an issue. Youknow what I mean? As far as37700:29:38.309 --> 00:29:42.509like, whether you're killing your blackchild or your white child or your Hispanic37800:29:42.549 --> 00:29:45.349Child, whatever, you're killing thechild and it's wrong, right. But37900:29:47.269 --> 00:29:51.829as much as I am that yeother meet is reinforcing this this racial division38000:29:52.069 --> 00:29:55.660over and over and over and over, and so we need we have to38100:29:55.740 --> 00:30:00.259find a way to uny and bringthese people to the understanding that we're that38200:30:00.420 --> 00:30:03.180we're all created in the image ofGod, you know. So I think38300:30:04.180 --> 00:30:10.529that we want to communicate that's goingto resonate in this world that's so divided,38400:30:10.769 --> 00:30:15.009you know. Yeah, right,I know. Just recently, I'd38500:30:15.049 --> 00:30:19.089say since the George Floyd murder andall this racial tension and stuff, it38600:30:19.210 --> 00:30:23.319seems like I've heard more and moreof the people walking into the abortion center38700:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.599of accusations of racism toward myself.Yeah, I'm talking to me white boy38800:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.000out there. You know. Wouldyou say that's case? Vicky? We38900:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.670heard it today. There was achange where we were being called racist because39000:30:37.710 --> 00:30:41.150we were offering help. I don'tknow why we were. We certainly had39100:30:41.230 --> 00:30:45.309not made any any racist remark,but but that's where it it started off39200:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.589asn't saying, of course, you'veheard this a thousand times, you should39300:30:48.630 --> 00:30:53.259not be judging you're judging us,and then ultimately that we were racist in39400:30:53.660 --> 00:30:59.980because, as we were judging whatwe're predominantly black women at that point walking39500:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.809into the abortion center. Whilst tobe aware of you know, the the39600:31:04.490 --> 00:31:10.690number one best selling the New YorkTimes right now is white fragility by Robin39700:31:10.730 --> 00:31:17.210D'Angelo. And she's a sosteologist whobasically says that all white people are racist.39800:31:17.450 --> 00:31:22.519Okay, so, whether subconsciously,whether you realize it or not,39900:31:22.119 --> 00:31:30.160your whiteness is blinded you to yourracism and that you can come to repent.40000:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.349Not Well, she doesn't call itrepentance, but you can come to40100:31:33.470 --> 00:31:37.990realize that your whiteness is, ina sense evil. And so this is40200:31:38.109 --> 00:31:44.269the number one best seller. Okay, wow, and white woman. Okay.40300:31:44.710 --> 00:31:48.299And so he's saying that white peopleare racist. Just from for you40400:31:48.380 --> 00:31:51.819to say that you're not a racist, it's just your white fragility showing,40500:31:52.299 --> 00:31:56.420which is you're trying to so andyou're doing I mean, there's nothing you40600:31:56.460 --> 00:32:00.380can say. You're due to prodyou, you are instantly labeled in.40700:32:00.420 --> 00:32:05.210There is there's no, no wayout of the rock. Yeah, that's40800:32:05.250 --> 00:32:08.369what so, Melissa. Are yousaying then, just for for the listeners40900:32:08.410 --> 00:32:13.809who are because a lot of ourlisteners are daily out at the abortion centers41000:32:13.849 --> 00:32:16.039and that's a lot of our listenerbase or sidebaught counsels and stuff like that.41100:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.920So would you say, then,the best thing to do in those41200:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.839situations where, let's say, anabortion minded mom walking in who this happens41300:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.559to be black, yields back atyou and says you're a racist. So41400:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.190the best response to that would justbe to ignore that and talk about humanities.41500:32:31.230 --> 00:32:37.589That that what happened, because ifyou defend go and defend yourself,41600:32:37.190 --> 00:32:44.740that is seen is and in termsof modern theory, critical race theory and41700:32:44.819 --> 00:32:49.140things like that, that is seenas you're showing your racism or because,41800:32:49.180 --> 00:32:54.059yeah, this is why you'll seepeople in these videos or these talks or41900:32:54.579 --> 00:33:00.250even even people, even friends,Christian Friends of mine, which is Sade.42000:33:00.410 --> 00:33:04.289You'll see them kind of innocence,repent of their whiteness, right,42100:33:04.849 --> 00:33:08.609they are so sorry for they don'tI don't. I don't know if they42200:33:08.650 --> 00:33:12.730know what they're sorry for, butthere's just they're sorry and they're repentant to42300:33:12.960 --> 00:33:17.720what people right. So for thatis seen as a you them. That42400:33:17.839 --> 00:33:23.039is seen is a good thing becausethey are their acknowledgy and they're welcome up42500:33:23.079 --> 00:33:28.630to understand their whiteness is evil.Okay. Now, when you defend it,42600:33:29.349 --> 00:33:32.589it shows that you are you yourfragile and this sort of thing.42700:33:32.869 --> 00:33:37.269So, yeah, I would so, regardless if you try to defend yourself42800:33:37.390 --> 00:33:40.980or not, you're still racist.You know, it's kind of darned if42900:33:42.019 --> 00:33:45.779you do. darned if you don'tsend exactly to get that would be yeah.43000:33:45.940 --> 00:33:52.940So just focus on humanity, youknow, try to speak through that43100:33:52.099 --> 00:33:57.569that you care about that individual.Yeah, and those things. That's all43200:33:57.650 --> 00:34:00.369you can do in a situations,I believe. Yeah, absolutely. One43300:34:00.369 --> 00:34:05.089of the things just came to mindis I'm not out there as a white43400:34:05.130 --> 00:34:07.929man. I'm out there is aChristian. That's primarily why I'm out there.43500:34:08.409 --> 00:34:10.960If I wasn't a Christian I wouldn'tbe out at the abortion center at43600:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.559all. I wouldn't care about thosebabies or those women or anything. So43700:34:15.079 --> 00:34:19.719yeah, I mean we're speaking outof our love for God, our love43800:34:19.800 --> 00:34:22.159for people. So appreciate you.Appreciate you saying that and sharing all of43900:34:22.280 --> 00:34:28.510that. Point people to Christ inthose situations because if you get if you44000:34:28.630 --> 00:34:31.230get caught up in that, it'syou're not going to be able to have44100:34:31.309 --> 00:34:35.750a fruitful of change. It endsup it's becoming a distraction. Any mean,44200:34:35.909 --> 00:34:39.139I'll just say there's a temptation asa yeah, you young black woman44300:34:39.260 --> 00:34:43.139is walking into the abortion center andshe calls out to me and calls me44400:34:43.179 --> 00:34:46.860a racist. There's a temptation inme to just lay out the statistics and44500:34:47.059 --> 00:34:51.739talk about plan parenthoods history, talkabout market saying all that. But,44600:34:52.099 --> 00:34:54.130like you said, it just becomesa distraction, it becomes a really a44700:34:54.289 --> 00:35:00.170conversation that's not immediately helpful, eventhough it could be helpful if we sit44800:35:00.289 --> 00:35:05.250down and talk at link and thatscenario. It's just not help yeah,44900:35:05.329 --> 00:35:09.159here I hear you say in thatthat's that's good advice. For sure that45000:35:09.320 --> 00:35:13.440helps you. Yeah, but yeah, if you if you just become with,45100:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.800like said, some of the modernliterature that's coming out now on system45200:35:16.920 --> 00:35:22.670system racism and white pullage a thinglike that, you really it's it's very45300:35:22.869 --> 00:35:29.949deep and so you're not going tocome to the resolution in those quick conversations,45400:35:29.989 --> 00:35:32.510I don't believe. Yeah, well, I want us to shift the45500:35:32.590 --> 00:35:37.820conversation just a little bit here,if we can, and talk about pro45600:35:37.019 --> 00:35:42.340life issues in the black community andjust your experience with that, because a45700:35:42.980 --> 00:35:46.820lot of folks don't understand why theblack community, from my perspective, because45800:35:46.860 --> 00:35:52.969it has disproportionally abortion, is disproportionatelyaffected the black community. A lot of45900:35:52.050 --> 00:35:55.889folks don't understand why these issues aren'taddressed in the black community. Or maybe46000:35:55.889 --> 00:35:59.369they are and we're just not hearingit, obviously, because we're not,46100:35:59.570 --> 00:36:02.849you know, involved on regular basiswithin the black community. whateverything. You46200:36:02.929 --> 00:36:07.360know, put air quots there,because, I mean we're talking about different46300:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.320communities and segments of communities. Butwithin the black community are these visions talked46400:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.079about? And if they're not talkedabout, then why? And if they46500:36:15.079 --> 00:36:21.269are, how are they addressed?Yeah, I find from I mean from46600:36:21.389 --> 00:36:23.989the political groups. You know,one of the that is a big promise46700:36:24.070 --> 00:36:29.550of politics, right, because youhave your groups like the Naacp and the46800:36:29.670 --> 00:36:35.699congressional black concus in these who arebasically very inner time with Plant parenthood and46900:36:36.460 --> 00:36:42.659these mutual relationships, and so forthe black community it's kind of it's like,47000:36:42.780 --> 00:36:45.820Oh, at that date it's okayfor them, you know, they're47100:36:45.139 --> 00:36:49.050they're great, will plan firehoods.I can be okay plan a parenthood.47200:36:49.130 --> 00:36:52.730But I think that the portion issuein general is not talked about in our47300:36:52.730 --> 00:36:58.889community and I think because of it'skilled, it's affected so many what people47400:36:59.329 --> 00:37:02.760right, it's something that honestly,and Dad, my mom listening to this,47500:37:02.960 --> 00:37:07.360but it's something I've never even withmy mom. I've never asked,47600:37:07.800 --> 00:37:12.559you know. I know that Ihave several friends who have had abortions,47700:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.510that when I was growing up,my teenage years, and they've never said47800:37:15.510 --> 00:37:20.469anything else about it. It's soit's something that is not it's happening,47900:37:21.590 --> 00:37:24.989but it's not talked about. Andthere you saying it's more like there's a48000:37:25.110 --> 00:37:30.699shame factor there because so many havebeen affected by abortion, or it's kind48100:37:30.699 --> 00:37:34.059of like the skeletons in the closetsort of thing. I think it's a48200:37:34.300 --> 00:37:37.619I think it's a lot of skeletonsin the closet that families don't talk about.48300:37:37.820 --> 00:37:44.969And so it is and you thinkabout it from when you talk when48400:37:45.090 --> 00:37:47.530and it's there's kind of a generalsilence, I would say. Right.48500:37:47.969 --> 00:37:51.929So then you have somebody like me, as always, talking about it,48600:37:52.690 --> 00:38:00.039you know, and I might getsometimes I'll get messages from people or even48700:38:00.119 --> 00:38:04.119a family, you know family thatsays, you know, I had an48800:38:04.159 --> 00:38:07.920abortion and you know this is avery important issue for me. Thank you.48900:38:08.159 --> 00:38:12.869Thank you for what you're doing.You know, I've talked to black49000:38:12.909 --> 00:38:15.469women that I've gone to church withover time. Is I've talked more about49100:38:15.469 --> 00:38:19.590a board portion. They started tosay, you know, I've had I've49200:38:19.630 --> 00:38:23.230had two abortions. I've had fourabortions people that I would have never thought49300:38:23.309 --> 00:38:30.059or knew. So it's just avery there's just a general silence about it,49400:38:30.699 --> 00:38:34.380and so I and I think that'smore of a reason to talk about49500:38:34.380 --> 00:38:37.340it, because I do want tosee people healed right, I want to49600:38:37.380 --> 00:38:42.409see people healed in Jesus and notcarrying the ground. And I would you49700:38:42.489 --> 00:38:45.809know, we need more post aboardof ministries and Black Churches. But then49800:38:45.889 --> 00:38:49.849even just thinking about the abortion issue, how to you know that it's a49900:38:50.010 --> 00:38:53.369sin and how to you know thatit's taking innocent human life? You just50000:38:53.489 --> 00:38:59.159don't hear that in sermons. Youdon't hear that in discussions at all,50100:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.480and so there's kind of this underand I think what it is like.50200:39:02.800 --> 00:39:09.030You know, we were talking earlierabout this oppressor oppressed situation right where the50300:39:10.590 --> 00:39:15.269where the oppressed. Someone who feelsoppressed for so long they will tend to50400:39:15.989 --> 00:39:22.030oppress someone else. So it's almostlike killing our own is okay, right.50500:39:22.829 --> 00:39:27.099It is something that's accepted. It'ssomething that we don't you know,50600:39:27.179 --> 00:39:30.500we don't talk about a whole lot, but the statistics speak for themselves.50700:39:30.340 --> 00:39:37.860So it's happening on a regular,accelerated basis. But then when we have50800:39:37.139 --> 00:39:44.210a police officer who killed, youknow, who unfairly kills one of us,50900:39:44.690 --> 00:39:49.170then that is the time that wespeak out right and we get infuriated.51000:39:49.889 --> 00:39:54.519So there is just this dope,this very double double standard in our51100:39:54.599 --> 00:39:59.920community. I mean when you talkingabout things, even with those point like51200:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.440the I think it was plant parenthoodcampaign, or may have been the now51300:40:02.559 --> 00:40:07.829campaign, shout your abortion, youknow, remember talk about your portion,51400:40:07.869 --> 00:40:10.670shout your abortion. Those were whowas at educated white women who are doing51500:40:10.789 --> 00:40:15.750that right. Yeah, you don'tsee a lot of black women participating in51600:40:15.869 --> 00:40:20.949these days. Now Plant parent whohas had some targeted campaigns to try to51700:40:21.110 --> 00:40:24.059bring black women into that and theyhave participated, but on a like on51800:40:24.139 --> 00:40:30.300a everyday level of the average person, you just don't see black people shouting51900:40:30.340 --> 00:40:35.539their abortion, and so it's itis very taboo, but it continues to52000:40:35.659 --> 00:40:38.650happen repeatedly, obviously. And soyeah, I don't know. I mean52100:40:38.690 --> 00:40:44.449there's not a I don't think there'sa a answer in terms of why that52200:40:44.690 --> 00:40:47.409is, but I know that thatneeds to change. I think yeah,52300:40:47.889 --> 00:40:52.480yeah, one of the things said, I would echo that you are saying52400:40:52.559 --> 00:40:58.039about how it so needs to change. Recently I did have a a woman,52500:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.760a mother, and her mother's not, for me, very abortion minded.52600:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.550I don't even know why they stopped. But as the discussion preceded,52700:41:05.670 --> 00:41:12.269the mother of the pregnant daughter admittedthat she had had a number of abortions52800:41:12.510 --> 00:41:15.469and then her daughter hadn't known that. She had known maybe her mother had52900:41:15.550 --> 00:41:17.070had one or two, but hermother hadn't had a number of them.53000:41:17.429 --> 00:41:22.059And then the mother proceeded to tocry and talk about the pain and the53100:41:22.179 --> 00:41:28.980sorrow and the despair that had beenhidden from this daughter. And ultimately the53200:41:29.420 --> 00:41:32.849daughter got on the RV chose life. But it struck me how, when53300:41:34.050 --> 00:41:37.969any sin is in darkness, it'shidden, it just grows, it multiplies53400:41:38.530 --> 00:41:44.170and if the children are seeing that, they know their MOMS have had abortions,53500:41:44.210 --> 00:41:46.400but it's never talked about it,it's never talked about in a negative53600:41:46.440 --> 00:41:52.199way, but they do what they'vewhat they see and what they learned from53700:41:52.199 --> 00:41:55.119their parents, and so it's perpetuated. Yeah, and if you don't hear53800:41:55.159 --> 00:41:59.119about it, you know if you'regoing to church every Sunday and you never53900:41:59.480 --> 00:42:04.710heard about it and no one talkI mean you, I had no idea54000:42:04.750 --> 00:42:08.309how to think about abortion, youknow, and so until when I want,54100:42:08.469 --> 00:42:12.789well even after I got safe,I just I never thought about it,54200:42:12.989 --> 00:42:17.579I never heard about it and andit was just it was through radio.54300:42:17.780 --> 00:42:22.860I heard a radio and information adand I just started thinking about it54400:42:23.019 --> 00:42:27.820more. But it's just it's notsomething that's talked about. Now you do54500:42:27.980 --> 00:42:30.969have people like Bishop Patrick Root,and I think he's up in Riley,54600:42:31.369 --> 00:42:36.489who is so outspoken, and thenyou have one of your votings and those54700:42:36.570 --> 00:42:39.769of those who were just, youknow, all about pro life issues and54800:42:40.010 --> 00:42:45.719Benjamin I send Benjaman's rack. AsterGabriel Rodgers here in in Charlotte speaks about54900:42:45.719 --> 00:42:49.639the issue of abortion a regular basis. He's one of the churches you mentioned55000:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.639that comes out to the prayer walks. These men have got a just awesome55100:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.719in addressing the issue. Yeah,yeah, Bitch. When Watson is he's55200:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.829might. He was a nfl heplayed in the NFL. He just retired.55300:43:00.389 --> 00:43:04.869He's my pastor son. He's mypastor's oldest son and he's actually spoken55400:43:04.909 --> 00:43:07.550at the marks for the life andhe's doing he's working on a pro life55500:43:07.590 --> 00:43:10.230documentary, he's trying to get moreblack people to talk about it and for55600:43:10.309 --> 00:43:14.860it to be more mainstream. Againin our peasers, people that are hurting55700:43:15.500 --> 00:43:20.019and there is this idea that againout of side, out of mind.55800:43:21.340 --> 00:43:24.699You just you get over you justpray, get over it, move on55900:43:25.340 --> 00:43:29.130and don't talk about it. Andso, like Vicki was saying, with56000:43:29.210 --> 00:43:31.369the young girl with the abortion,amount of girl who did had no idea56100:43:31.369 --> 00:43:35.690that our mother had an abortion.You just don't, you know, it's56200:43:35.730 --> 00:43:39.730just kind of a secret. Andthen sometimes with US black prolifers, I've56300:43:39.809 --> 00:43:45.159noticed that we can be more focusedon our just come from political perspective.56400:43:45.199 --> 00:43:50.440Yeah, I'm to try to totry to talk to black people about you56500:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.440know, you know, and wedon't start at the heart of the issue,56600:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.710which is, you know, whenyou which is a humanity, because56700:43:58.789 --> 00:44:01.949when we as as black people,when we accept that abortion is okay and56800:44:02.030 --> 00:44:07.750as acceptable, I mean we arewe are reaffirming the idea that human beings,56900:44:07.789 --> 00:44:12.139that they're human beings of less valueand worth. And so where we57000:44:13.019 --> 00:44:16.659those ideas that even racist individuals mayhave against us, those ideas that Jim57100:44:16.860 --> 00:44:22.500crow fought against, those ideas thatthat were prevalent during slavery and the reason57200:44:22.539 --> 00:44:29.250for the civil war and these things. So we're we're reiterating the ideas that57300:44:29.449 --> 00:44:34.010have perpetuated against us throughout, youknow, throughout American history. So,57400:44:34.289 --> 00:44:37.530yeah, right, do you doyou find, I know you shared a57500:44:37.570 --> 00:44:40.719little bit earlier, in your experiencein being a black woman who is pro57600:44:40.920 --> 00:44:46.280life? Do you find that youget pushed back within African American circles being57700:44:46.400 --> 00:44:49.920pro life? And I know yousaid you had some people to reach out57800:44:49.920 --> 00:44:52.110to you who's you have shared pastabortions and they're reaching out to you,57900:44:52.190 --> 00:44:55.989and obviously in a positive way,but you get some negative reactions to I58000:44:57.070 --> 00:45:01.590guess absolutely. Yeah, it becomesso you get the so the the what58100:45:01.710 --> 00:45:06.030happens is the more at spoken.It's some people are just quiet and they'll58200:45:06.070 --> 00:45:09.619just, you know, they disapprovequietly. But then you have, you58300:45:09.739 --> 00:45:14.219know, the people who, youknow, call you the traders and the58400:45:14.260 --> 00:45:19.780uncle Tom's and and the cellouts andthe coons and that you're just playing along.58500:45:20.659 --> 00:45:23.530They think that you are. Again, think about that, like I'm58600:45:23.530 --> 00:45:27.730really glad that you talked about thesemi racism thing earlier, the idea of58700:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.650it, because they you know,again, you know, kind of going58800:45:30.690 --> 00:45:35.760back to that, I'm there arethese disparities sometimes in a in a general58900:45:35.920 --> 00:45:38.960sense, with some economic issues andthings like that, even though it's not59000:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.440all that's not always an issue ofinjustice. It's just sometimes that's just how59100:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.960things are for certain reasons. Butit's almost like, okay, pro life59200:45:47.000 --> 00:45:52.670is a that's a white conservative evangelicalissue, you know. An't know.59300:45:52.789 --> 00:45:55.869What I wanted to get to isthat this idea that, you know,59400:45:57.349 --> 00:46:01.710it is a Republican Democrat issue andthat's why there's there's this kind of unwillingness59500:46:01.710 --> 00:46:05.940to address the issue of abortion theblack community. So you're you're kind of59600:46:05.980 --> 00:46:07.860reiterating that, I guess. Well, yeah, it's like, you know,59700:46:08.420 --> 00:46:12.900because the idea is that, okay, if you're black, you should59800:46:12.900 --> 00:46:20.409be fighting for things like, youknow, equal pay and reparations and black59900:46:20.570 --> 00:46:23.210rights and these sort of things,and and black you should be fighting for,60000:46:23.969 --> 00:46:28.329you know, against the legal system, you know, and things like60100:46:28.489 --> 00:46:31.920that, or neighborhood you know,you'd should be fighting for neighborhood development and60200:46:32.360 --> 00:46:38.480poor community for minority communities and firstthe school system, flip public school system60300:46:38.480 --> 00:46:43.159in the inner city fighting for abortion. That is again, that's a wide60400:46:43.280 --> 00:46:47.389evangelical, Upper Club, middle upperclass issue. That's that. That's their60500:46:47.510 --> 00:46:52.909fight and you are ignoring your communityby being a part of that. So60600:46:53.070 --> 00:46:58.630that becomes the idea. And sobut I think through through you, through60700:46:58.710 --> 00:47:02.059educating. I mean I have several, you know, black friends that we're60800:47:02.179 --> 00:47:06.500not pro life and not in justbecause they didn't they never thought about it,60900:47:07.219 --> 00:47:09.699you know, they just it's notsomething I would do. But you61000:47:09.780 --> 00:47:13.059know somebody wants to do you knowit. You know they can do it.61100:47:13.179 --> 00:47:15.369So that's the beauty you have ofunderstanding, you know, some prolife61200:47:15.369 --> 00:47:21.730apologetics and some training and how tohave conversations, because all times that that61300:47:21.889 --> 00:47:25.969happens in conversations one on one andthrough messages and tests and phone calls and61400:47:27.130 --> 00:47:30.079things like that. So that's whyI'm still going to say what I have61500:47:30.199 --> 00:47:34.480to say and because there are peoplewho are being affected and who are hearing61600:47:34.519 --> 00:47:37.079it. There's some people who aregoing to call you to sell out because61700:47:37.079 --> 00:47:39.599they believe that you have sold outyour people and your the causes that are61800:47:39.599 --> 00:47:44.119important to us and that you folkfor focusing on abortion again, because we61900:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.110don't talk about abortion as a communityand we don't talk about the devastating effects62000:47:47.110 --> 00:47:53.309and abortion on our community right andso it's it can be kind of multifaceted62100:47:53.389 --> 00:47:59.500the responses, but there are peoplewho aren't seeing the truth and seeing the62200:47:59.539 --> 00:48:02.980light. And so with like youknow what, regardless, you know,62300:48:04.059 --> 00:48:07.019truth is truth and we have tostand on for us God in the process.62400:48:07.179 --> 00:48:10.940So yeah, well, thank Godwe've got a Godly woman like you62500:48:12.139 --> 00:48:15.050and and you're speaking out in theway that you are and you're able to62600:48:15.329 --> 00:48:20.010just confront these issues head on andbring the Gospel into the equation or at62700:48:20.050 --> 00:48:24.369the forefront of the conversation, becausethat is ultimately what's going to change the62800:48:24.449 --> 00:48:29.880issue of racism and the issue ofabortion and whatever other sins we deal with62900:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.480as human beings. It's the Gospel. Yeah, well, you know,63000:48:32.639 --> 00:48:38.039even with racism, you know,we have to talk me when in conversations.63100:48:38.079 --> 00:48:40.550I mean you can, you know, say racism is is is a63200:48:40.630 --> 00:48:45.429sin. You know, I maynot be racist, but there's sins in63300:48:45.590 --> 00:48:49.869my heart right and we all havesin or of some sort. And so63400:48:50.510 --> 00:48:53.789let's you know, God is good. God is perfect, he's holy and63500:48:53.869 --> 00:48:59.260he can save anybody, you know, and so even even through racism,63600:49:00.300 --> 00:49:05.059God can penetrate hearts and change hearts. But it's seen as it is seen63700:49:05.099 --> 00:49:08.500as the issue of our day andas the kind of the unforgivable sin.63800:49:09.250 --> 00:49:15.610Yeah, yeah, yeah, andthat's a sad reality. It's like even63900:49:15.929 --> 00:49:21.170again, me, as a whiteChristian man, I'm sometimes like I don't64000:49:21.170 --> 00:49:24.079know what I can say and whatI can't say without getting getting in the64100:49:24.239 --> 00:49:28.679the PR police after me. SoI just say what I feel like the64200:49:29.480 --> 00:49:34.039word of God says and just letthe Lord deal with but it's a difficult64300:49:34.039 --> 00:49:37.960time to live in. As faras the things that you feel like you64400:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.230can say, the truth, Ifeel like you can say without having a64500:49:40.269 --> 00:49:43.989terrible backlash. And of course,you know, we've seen some of that64600:49:44.469 --> 00:49:49.230in media and and all of thatrecently. The wortion is, I mean64700:49:49.429 --> 00:49:52.500the the abortion clinic is the I. That is a war zone already,64800:49:53.179 --> 00:49:58.659and then you add a racial tensionwar on top of that. That's going64900:49:58.780 --> 00:50:02.019on in media and it's just a, you know, the perfect storm for65000:50:02.500 --> 00:50:07.530you know, an explosion Alma.Yeah, and it is. But you65100:50:07.610 --> 00:50:12.170know, from from a positive aspect. I see what's happening out at the65200:50:12.210 --> 00:50:16.090abortion center in many ways as beinglike on a microcoss and the way to65300:50:16.250 --> 00:50:22.400heal racial tension, because they,I think, overwhelmingly, at least the65400:50:22.480 --> 00:50:25.440sideball counclers I know, love peoplebecause they're people made in the image of65500:50:25.480 --> 00:50:29.679God and they are reaching now tothese women, not because they're black or65600:50:29.719 --> 00:50:32.440white, but because their women whoare in a desperate place, feeling that65700:50:32.599 --> 00:50:37.590killing their child is an answer,and we have a different answer, the65800:50:37.789 --> 00:50:44.070aid, a Godly, Gospel drivenanswer and s and so worn. It65900:50:44.309 --> 00:50:49.670connects them to our humanity and we'reconnected to their humanity, which what I'm66000:50:49.670 --> 00:50:53.739hearing you saying is the absolute crucialthing to do. When and that that66100:50:53.860 --> 00:50:59.219happens regularly out there. Yeah,well, and and those. You see66200:50:59.300 --> 00:51:01.500that all the time. And peopledon't that's one thing people don't see.66300:51:01.539 --> 00:51:05.849Oh, white people don't care,you know, and these things. But66400:51:05.929 --> 00:51:08.530then I see you, know you, Vicky, you know you guys on66500:51:08.650 --> 00:51:12.769the RV with this young lady.Think about this. When you come to66600:51:12.929 --> 00:51:15.809when a when a woman comes toan abortion clinic, are young girl comes66700:51:15.849 --> 00:51:19.760abortion clinic. That's probably the lowestpoint of her life right. Yeah,66800:51:19.960 --> 00:51:24.039and you're and you're there being Christhands and feet and meet her there and66900:51:24.719 --> 00:51:29.960in standing there for her in thegap. So talk about I mean,67000:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.909if you want to talk about apicture of of love, of true love,67100:51:35.309 --> 00:51:42.550of sacrificial love, of love forhumanity, of if there's any sort67200:51:42.590 --> 00:51:47.940of picture of love, virtual unityand love, it's on that sidewalk.67300:51:49.659 --> 00:51:53.340You know, it's people are as. People are reaching across racial lines to67400:51:53.980 --> 00:52:00.980save lives, literally save lives,and to offer help resources and it's in67500:52:00.139 --> 00:52:07.329a total change in direction and one'slike, hmm, it's the thing.67600:52:07.650 --> 00:52:12.369Yeah, I agree. That's awesome. I appreciate you that that. That's67700:52:12.409 --> 00:52:16.440actually a great note for us toend this podcast on soly. Very encouraging,67800:52:16.559 --> 00:52:22.400Melissa. It's very encouraging having youown and it's very enlightening to hear67900:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.239your respect. I appreciate you takingthe time to do that. If people68000:52:25.239 --> 00:52:28.360want to get in touch with youand Devin, how do they get in68100:52:28.440 --> 00:52:35.429touch with you? Sure you canemail us, Melissa Palu at Rassio Christie68200:52:35.469 --> 00:52:38.150Dot Org. I know that's amouthful with between my name and our ministry.68300:52:38.190 --> 00:52:40.710Yeah, put it. Didn't upat it in the show notes at68400:52:40.750 --> 00:52:44.460the at the bottom of the podcast, a link there. Do you guys68500:52:44.780 --> 00:52:47.820what I and I you know Ido talks, and Devin does you know?68600:52:47.900 --> 00:52:52.739We do pro if apologetic talks,helping people to think through the issue68700:52:52.739 --> 00:52:55.460of abortion, how to defend thePROLFE position. But then also, you68800:52:55.539 --> 00:53:00.489know, the race is the issueof race and talking about and racial reconciliation.68900:53:00.730 --> 00:53:05.570That's something that's very much on myheart and I fortunate as a part69000:53:05.690 --> 00:53:08.369of that those presentations that I do. It has to be because it is69100:53:08.449 --> 00:53:12.920again the number one killer of blackpeople and we has to be an issue69200:53:12.920 --> 00:53:17.599that's addressed and talk about. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Melissa,69300:53:17.599 --> 00:53:21.000again, I appreciate you coming on. We're going to wrap this thing69400:53:21.119 --> 00:53:25.719up and right, I appreciate youguys who who listen and just if you69500:53:25.760 --> 00:53:29.110need to get in touch with me, it's deep parks. It cities for69600:53:29.190 --> 00:53:31.469lifecom. You get in touch withthe Vicki. It's V Cassey Org at69700:53:31.510 --> 00:53:36.909cities for lifecom and Melissa shared hercontact info there. So, guys,69800:53:36.949 --> 00:53:39.630we appreciate you guys listening. Hopefullyyou'll share this podcast. Hopefully was a69900:53:39.670 --> 00:53:47.780blessing to you. Until next time, God bless me. Ove for love,70000:53:52.500 --> 00:54:00.969give me our love for gratitude.I know it will cost me my70100:54:00.289 --> 00:54:07.690love. No, sins too precious, and some you