Aug. 21, 2019

Abolitionist or Pro-Life, Which One is Biblical?

Abolitionist or Pro-Life, Which One is Biblical?

There has been some controversy within the ranks of those who stand against abortion. There are those who claim to be pro-life and those who think the pro-life movement has compromised the truth and needs to embrace an abolitionist philosophy. In this...


There has been some controversy within the ranks of those who stand against abortion. There are those who claim to be pro-life and those who think the pro-life movement has compromised the truth and needs to embrace an abolitionist philosophy. In this episode Cities4Life director, Daniel Parks, talks with local abolitionist, Carl Turnmire, about the differences between the pro-life movement and the abolitionist movement.  

www.charlotte.cities4life.org  

http://abolishabortionnc.com 

www.sidewalks4life.com 

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.150 Lord, I am yours. Welcome to Gospel Center pro life and this episode 3 00:00:11.150 --> 00:00:14.710 we're going to talk to abolitionist Carl Turnmeyer. We're going to ask the question 4 00:00:14.869 --> 00:00:24.379 abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? Stay tuned. I felt 5 00:00:24.820 --> 00:00:34.619 show passish touch your heart. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. 6 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:39.890 Appreciate all those who are watching or listening. The question that we're asking in 7 00:00:39.969 --> 00:00:46.289 this podcast is abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? And it's 8 00:00:46.289 --> 00:00:50.960 not really to say that that neither one or both are biblical or ones more 9 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.719 biblical than the other. We're just talking through this thing because it's a question 10 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:57.439 a lot of people have, and so I have with me today Carl Turnmeier, 11 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.600 who is an abolitionist, who's with I don't know. Ah is not 12 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:06.230 necessarily an organization you say you're under, but people have the the AH a 13 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:11.349 philosophy, and so I wanted to just kind of share Carl real quick, 14 00:01:11.349 --> 00:01:15.430 if you can, sort of maybe a summary of what what you see. 15 00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:18.939 And it's not a monolithic group. There's a bunch of different abolitionists and people 16 00:01:18.980 --> 00:01:23.299 that they are part of Aj and whatnot who have different, varying beliefs about 17 00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:26.140 abolition and that sort of thing. But from your perspective, what is the 18 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:32.140 abolishes philosophy? Well, first let me just say that, you know, 19 00:01:32.180 --> 00:01:37.450 I've been involved in this since the late S, okay, my first introduction 20 00:01:37.609 --> 00:01:44.290 to preborn murder. I tend to use that as opposed to the euphemism of 21 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:48.840 abortion. Yeah, sure, because that's the reality of what we're talking about. 22 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.599 Yeah, was when my wife and I were thinking that she was pregnant 23 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.799 and I was in college and we went to a clinic to do a pregnancy 24 00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:05.030 test and we found out that she was pregnant. Yeah, and they offered 25 00:02:05.189 --> 00:02:09.830 to provide us with an abortion. Wow, and I grew up, you 26 00:02:09.909 --> 00:02:14.590 know, I'm fifty years old. Grew up in a different generation than today, 27 00:02:14.750 --> 00:02:20.259 certainly, and I was a I was up the belief that, you 28 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.379 know, a woman who's pregnant is pregnant with a human child. If she 29 00:02:23.539 --> 00:02:25.020 give your time, she's going to deliver a baby. Yeah, that was 30 00:02:25.139 --> 00:02:30.810 my baby. Yeah, and and that you do what's right. Yeah, 31 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:36.729 and so I was shocked by that option, that opportunity that they were presenting 32 00:02:36.770 --> 00:02:39.169 to us, and my wife was also shocked by it. That was our 33 00:02:39.330 --> 00:02:46.560 first introduction to this and so I from that day a forward, my wife 34 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.560 and I got involved and everything that we could. Regarding pro life, because 35 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.879 we are for life. Yeah, and I think that along with the euphemism 36 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:04.349 of abortion comes the terminologies around what we're talking about, prolife and abolition. 37 00:03:06.509 --> 00:03:08.870 Can I say that I'm prolife? Absolutely. Would you say your prolife? 38 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:13.659 Absolutely, because we are for life, we won't. We think life is 39 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:17.979 something that God has has given and it's of him, and so, you 40 00:03:19.099 --> 00:03:22.259 know, we are for that. God wants us to be for that. 41 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:31.569 As far as abolition goes, in this day abolition has a primary focus on 42 00:03:34.409 --> 00:03:39.330 doing a way with the practice preborn murder. Yeah, but abolition as it 43 00:03:39.530 --> 00:03:45.759 really a mindset or ideology, or spirit, if you will, that has 44 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:50.599 been around eternally. Yeah, Christ came to abolish the works of the devil. 45 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.840 So, yeah, abolition. That word abolish is a scriptural word, 46 00:03:54.990 --> 00:04:00.710 and so and you and you see coming through history, biblical history, of 47 00:04:00.830 --> 00:04:02.870 the the prophets and the things that we're going on with the Kings, when 48 00:04:02.909 --> 00:04:09.430 they were godly men, men of God, they abolished the wicked sins that 49 00:04:09.550 --> 00:04:12.300 were going on in the culture. Yes, you like. They tore down 50 00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:15.459 the high places. They, you know, they destroyed idols, and one 51 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:19.779 of those idols was a idol that children were sacrificed to. Yeah, Molich. 52 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:24.290 Yeah, right. So that a butt, that that ideology or that 53 00:04:24.410 --> 00:04:29.850 philosophy or that spirit what has always been around. It's a in Christ being 54 00:04:29.930 --> 00:04:35.129 the eternal son of God, in the eternal word of God. Having demonstrated 55 00:04:35.170 --> 00:04:41.399 that and spoken that through his word shows us that that is an eternal sort 56 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.079 of work. Yeah, God's doing. Okay, abolition in my mind is 57 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:51.439 first of all, it's Gospel Centered, Gospel Focus, because, apart from 58 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:58.550 changing the souls of human beings, there's no way that that preborn murder will 59 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:02.069 will never be unconsionable. Yeah, until you have a change of soul, 60 00:05:02.670 --> 00:05:13.060 mind, will, emotions and deeds, then abortion will not be done away 61 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:16.540 with. Yeah, that's the key, is to change their hearts and souls 62 00:05:16.579 --> 00:05:20.019 and minds. Yeah, I just had a conversation today. I was talking 63 00:05:20.060 --> 00:05:24.290 to one of the pro choice, I put it in quotes because it's really 64 00:05:24.329 --> 00:05:27.889 pro abortion ladies out in front of the abortion clinic and and she was talking 65 00:05:27.889 --> 00:05:30.009 about and I was talking about this very subject. She was talking about US 66 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.410 limiting abortions and how we want to limit woman's right to choose. I'm like, 67 00:05:33.529 --> 00:05:36.879 well, actually want to limit abortions. I want it to be illegal, 68 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.240 like completely illegal, to have an abortion. And she was like, 69 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.680 well, you know, if you, if you do that, women are 70 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.600 going to have illegal abortions. Some people have a illegal abortions now, like 71 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.029 they still do that. And you don't take a moral evil that I believe 72 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:56.189 abortion to be and in legalize it to make it safe or to make it 73 00:05:56.430 --> 00:06:00.269 look better. It's like it's it's wrong. It's like slavery, he which 74 00:06:00.310 --> 00:06:04.100 is where the abolition is exact lot of the language comes from. You know, 75 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:08.699 you don't make slavery legal so that it's so you're able to regulate it 76 00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:13.060 better. It's a moral evil. People still own slaves now in the city 77 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.500 Charlotte, as a matter of fact, like number, like I don't know 78 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:18.730 what number four or five, and sex trafficking in the nation. And so, 79 00:06:18.930 --> 00:06:24.370 yeah, so speaks the kind of what you're saying, that today there's 80 00:06:24.449 --> 00:06:28.209 more slavery going on in the world than her has ever been in history. 81 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:32.959 Yeah, so we abolish slavery, but yet slavery still occurs. Does that 82 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:38.519 mean that we were we were we failed or that we were wrong? Absolutely 83 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.639 not. We did exactly what should have been done. Yeah, that is 84 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.199 was a moral evil that should have been abolished and we did it. And 85 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.949 yet wicked evil people still seein and bring yeah, break the law and do 86 00:06:50.069 --> 00:06:55.470 criminal things. It's just like murder is abolished in the sense that it is 87 00:06:55.709 --> 00:07:00.750 highly illegal. Yeah, and yet people in Charlotte, you know, highest 88 00:07:00.149 --> 00:07:03.660 more murders I've already occurred this year and then last year. Yeah, you 89 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:06.500 know, it's not the highest year in history, but you know, yeah, 90 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:12.819 it does. You're speaking to really kind of the really the focus of 91 00:07:12.899 --> 00:07:15.970 this podcast, which we're talking about Gospel centered pro life. Like we started 92 00:07:16.009 --> 00:07:18.529 out the first podcast we did, we we talked about what it means to 93 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:24.810 be Gospel centered in pro life, and there's pro life ministries and organizations that 94 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:28.689 are out there that, you know, come at it from maybe a philosophical 95 00:07:29.089 --> 00:07:31.959 standpoint, which, you know, philosophy certainly is great and all of that, 96 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:38.360 and I don't downplay that, but if we're not focused in the Gospel, 97 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.079 like you're saying, if the Gospel isn't the key isn't the focus, 98 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.910 then the human heart isn't changed and abortion is still kind of an option. 99 00:07:45.990 --> 00:07:47.750 They are. So, yeah, you're speaking, you're speaking my language rather. 100 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:51.709 Absolutely, Gospel Changes and there for the Gospel to be the center with 101 00:07:53.029 --> 00:07:56.870 that means that the scripture has got to be yeah, you know, a 102 00:07:57.230 --> 00:08:00.899 major key to doing it, because that's where you find the Gospel. And 103 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:05.620 so we take the full Gospel, we don't truncate it, we don't aggregate 104 00:08:05.660 --> 00:08:11.860 it, we give everything that got that Christ presented. That that the the 105 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:15.810 whole Scriptures present in the Gospel. But we also take into count the whole 106 00:08:15.810 --> 00:08:20.769 council of scripture, because we don't discount the the way the that God spoke 107 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:22.649 to his people there, the way that God work through his people or the 108 00:08:22.689 --> 00:08:26.050 way that God uses his people, whether it was Old Testament and New Testament 109 00:08:26.129 --> 00:08:30.560 or today. Yeah, so the whole council of Scripture has got to come 110 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.720 into play as we reach people with the Gospel and then we disciple them through 111 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:41.269 the Gospel into becoming full, you know, mature believers. Yeah, that's 112 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:45.350 got to be done through the whole council of Scripture. Yeah, well, 113 00:08:45.389 --> 00:08:48.070 speak real quick if you if you can again, this is not, you 114 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:50.549 know, this is not a debate format. We're debating about this thing. 115 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:56.659 I personally as as a dude that just loves Jesus and loves people and things. 116 00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:00.220 Abortion is evil. I say I'm prolife because I'm for life, and 117 00:09:00.259 --> 00:09:03.340 people know what you're saying. You say your prolife. Oh you're against abortion. 118 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:07.100 Yeah, I'm contended to be called anti abortion, like I'm anti slavery, 119 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:11.169 I'm Antisex, draffing him, I'm anti drug addiction, anti for an 120 00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:15.730 occasion. So I'm content. But so just a regular dude like myself who's 121 00:09:15.769 --> 00:09:18.730 not, you know, maybe necessarily in the abolitionist camp, but probably agree 122 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:24.080 with a lot of the tenants of abolition. Speak a little bit, if 123 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.120 you can, about the differences between pro life and abolition, like why you 124 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:33.279 personally wouldn't say I'm part of the pro life move right. Well, like 125 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.590 I said before, and sharing my personal testimony, was that when my wife 126 00:09:37.590 --> 00:09:46.190 and I started early, you know, thirty years ago, working for for 127 00:09:46.429 --> 00:09:50.549 life, the avenue that we took, which was pretty kind of the only 128 00:09:50.590 --> 00:09:58.419 available avenue, and me not being a mature believer at the time, just 129 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:03.779 being introduced into, you know, living the Christian life. Yeah, that 130 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:09.250 was pro life. Was the movement that you only came in town. Maybe. 131 00:10:09.330 --> 00:10:15.250 Yeah. So I spent at least a decade working in and every facet 132 00:10:15.409 --> 00:10:18.210 that I could in the pro life movement. You know, certainly in my 133 00:10:18.330 --> 00:10:22.639 church, in the community, being involved on the board of directors at my 134 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.200 local Pregnacy Care Center, counseling, you know, marching, being in the 135 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.840 streets, raising money, leading my church to go and be involved, speaking 136 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.230 to other churches, other pastors. So you know, I kind of run 137 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:41.710 the gamut of of pro life work. And at the end of the day, 138 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:46.789 at the end of the decade, I was disappointed. Yeah, I 139 00:10:46.909 --> 00:10:54.580 was frustrated because I didn't see the fruit, I guess, and there the 140 00:10:54.700 --> 00:11:01.019 results. And then I started thinking what's going on here? And and when 141 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:03.970 you when you try to figure out, after you've invested a decade into doing 142 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:07.610 something, what's going on, you got to back up. You got to 143 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:09.649 back up not only the decade that you've been going on, but before that, 144 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:13.090 what was going on? Where did I come in and what was going 145 00:11:13.129 --> 00:11:16.490 on before I came in? And so I started backing up and I backed 146 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:22.679 up to Rov Wade and I backed up to the early nineteen century. And 147 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.639 and so I started and then I started studying about abolition. And when you 148 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.909 go through the history of abolition, not only do you find it in the 149 00:11:33.990 --> 00:11:37.029 scriptures, and I was certainly studying the scriptures as well as I could, 150 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.629 and I was seeing these people, you know, fighting and speaking out a 151 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:46.389 proclaiming the word of God against, you know, being against the evil and 152 00:11:46.509 --> 00:11:52.259 wicked in the world. And and so that was an inspiration for me to 153 00:11:52.419 --> 00:11:56.179 find out. You know, how do you how do you do that today 154 00:11:56.980 --> 00:12:05.090 with this evil? Yeah, and and obviously the correlations between this evil of 155 00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:09.809 the humanization of the preborn matches a lot of the dehumanization that was going on 156 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:13.090 with slavery. Yes, sure, and abolitionists were there. And so you 157 00:12:13.769 --> 00:12:20.039 run that thing up to those early abolitionist British abolitionist, early American abolitionists, 158 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.600 and you study those guys, Wilberforce and garrison and and those guys, and 159 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.309 you see what was going on and you read the things that they said, 160 00:12:30.429 --> 00:12:35.110 the things that they did. Powerful now from me, and that made an 161 00:12:35.149 --> 00:12:39.990 impact that they were hated. Yeah, and you know, Jesus said, 162 00:12:41.029 --> 00:12:43.830 if the world loves you, better take a look at the right yeah, 163 00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:46.500 they're going to hate you the same way they hated me and they certainly hated 164 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:50.100 these guys, and these guys were certainly Christians and Biblical. And so I 165 00:12:50.379 --> 00:13:00.610 found a lot of passion and compassion and inspiration through those early abolitionists that inspired 166 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:05.490 me to being abolitionists. Yeah, but you when you went through a minute 167 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:11.009 ago talking about being anti and being proud of that, and I appreciate that 168 00:13:11.129 --> 00:13:15.440 because I'm anti too. Yeah, and one of the things that I found 169 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:22.720 to be a difference between prolife and abolitionist is that today in my community with 170 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:30.470 the pro life folks, when I have spoken to them and said anything about 171 00:13:30.470 --> 00:13:41.980 abortion being murder or being an abolitionist and being against abortion, I've been reprimanding. 172 00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:46.460 Okay, yeah, as being anti, you know, abortion. We 173 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.340 don't want to be anti abortion, we want to be prolife. Yeah, 174 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:54.019 and and so the one of the things about pro life movement is I think 175 00:13:54.179 --> 00:14:01.490 that they want to be so positive that they waiver on the truth sometimes or 176 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:07.450 they compromise for the positivity of being pro life, which what we were talking 177 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:16.159 earlier before the program the justification that that can sometimes present to people who are 178 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.639 abortion or murder minded. Yeah, when we're soft on that or when we're 179 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.710 positive, that takes the edge off of the reality of what they're doing. 180 00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:31.029 Yeah, yeah, so that's one. Just one thing. Yeah, one 181 00:14:31.070 --> 00:14:43.059 of the other biggest things for me is the meet the immediate call for abolition 182 00:14:43.220 --> 00:14:46.820 to accolish and we're to getting get around it. It is it. That's 183 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.539 kind of the some of the tension. It's like it is mediatism versus incrementalism. 184 00:14:50.659 --> 00:14:54.769 So, yeah, and so so. So to clarify that one a 185 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:58.210 little bit, is what I like to think of is I when we talk 186 00:14:58.289 --> 00:15:05.330 a about immediate we are talking about it's sort of like a decision for Christ. 187 00:15:05.730 --> 00:15:09.399 When I'm sharing the Gospel with you or I'm leading a person to Christ, 188 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.600 I lead everybody to Christ. Yeah, they where do they choose? 189 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.960 Right, it is there, you know, on them. But you lead 190 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:22.070 everybody to Christ. And what is your desire? That today is the day 191 00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:26.070 of salvation. You want that immediate decision, that immediate change of mind, 192 00:15:26.149 --> 00:15:33.309 that immediate newness of life, Spirit field, salvation, justification on the spot. 193 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.779 Yeah, and so that's the way I picture abolition as we want the 194 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:43.820 immediate end to this evil sin. There's no compromise with it. It's pure 195 00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:50.370 evil, wicked and we want an immediately into it and that takes steps, 196 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:58.450 which sounds like incrementalism, right, yeah, but incrementalism tends to be okay 197 00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:04.639 all along the way and abolition is never okay all along the way, because 198 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:11.080 we wanted the mediate end. We're always set, you know, our we're 199 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.279 star, our focus is set like flint to that immediate, yeah, end, 200 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:23.429 and so anything that that takes the edge off of that immediate, you 201 00:16:23.509 --> 00:16:30.149 know, impact is is hard for us to swallow. It's yeah, it 202 00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:33.580 seems a little bit like compromise. And so then then you start getting into 203 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:36.379 all the details of that and you could chase a thousand realities. Yeah, 204 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.539 on the details, but but the the easiest details are the incremental legislation that's 205 00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:45.980 going on shore for Life Movement for decades. Yeah. Well, like we 206 00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:49.370 talked about, like you said before the program we're talking a little bit about 207 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:55.090 the politics of abortion and how a lot of of the political system, you 208 00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:59.610 know, a lot of these prolife I say that in quotes, politicians are 209 00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:04.079 basically, you just playing on people sensitivities to get votes and in store that 210 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.319 becomes a problem. Yeah, huge problem for me. This again, just 211 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:15.509 a just a regular dude who thinks Jesus is awesome and loves people and hates 212 00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:22.509 abortion. But to me, when I see legislation, which I you know, 213 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:26.390 I've heard the debates, have listened to some debates between the abolitionist and 214 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:32.299 prolife people about that incrementalism when legislation pass. He did some legislation, I 215 00:17:32.420 --> 00:17:36.460 think it's two thousand and thirteen here North Carolina, where they said basically, 216 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.380 you know, a woman has to be given the ultrasound, she has to 217 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:41.460 be able to see the ultrasound. And then they did a twenty week band 218 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:45.369 and you know, we're people rejoicing over that. I was like yeah, 219 00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:48.009 I guess, Praise God. You know, it's a band. If I'm 220 00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:51.529 a baby at twenty one weeks, my mom walks into it them. I'll 221 00:17:51.529 --> 00:17:53.650 look at it from love your neighbor. This baby's my neighbor. If I'm 222 00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:57.569 a baby that's twenty one weeks, my mom walks into an abortion clinic and 223 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.960 because of the twenty one week or twenty week ban, she can't kill me, 224 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:06.279 I'm going to be happy for that legislation. The problem, I think, 225 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.039 comes in again just looking at it from a practical perspective. The problem 226 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.990 of it comes in if we're able to settle, and a lot of people 227 00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:17.589 are like we won some kind of victory because we have a twenty week ban 228 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:21.269 or or whatever we might have. We have a partial birth abortion band and 229 00:18:21.349 --> 00:18:22.789 we want some kind of victory. I'm like, well, if that's how 230 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:25.589 we're going to view it, if we're going to think, think that we 231 00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:30.180 can go take a breath because we got this incremental thing, I don't think 232 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.740 so, guys. We got to press into this time. We gotta see 233 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.019 if we believe abortion is murder, and I do. We need to see 234 00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:42.369 this thing completely legal right. But I am I'm sort of okay with incremental 235 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:47.650 bands on abortion, like the the fetal heartbeat bills and things like that in 236 00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:52.130 Alabama. I don't find myself being like saddened by that because I'm thinking, 237 00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:56.279 okay, Mama's are not going to be able to kill their babies past six 238 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.000 weeks and I'm happy. So tell me why I'm wrong and can and don't 239 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:04.240 you know, don't don't hold backkause, because I'm not. I want to 240 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.079 be corrected. I want to be consistent with the Bible, absolutely and and 241 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.470 that is the word. Brother, you hit the nail on the head without 242 00:19:12.470 --> 00:19:17.869 me even having to say a word. Is Consistency. So for me and 243 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:25.380 you, we both love God and we hate seeing murder of babies. To 244 00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:30.779 be fully consistent, we have to hate all of that. Yeah, the 245 00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:36.299 thing I see with legislation, whether it's a twenty week band heartbeat bill, 246 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:42.450 you know, obviously the I mean we've got a group of politicians out there 247 00:19:42.529 --> 00:19:45.410 now, just like I was sharing with the earlier about the democratic debates, 248 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:51.250 who don't even bother anymore. Yeah, because they're so gone. It's a 249 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:55.839 settled issue. We can practically, you know, unless that baby's walking out 250 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:57.240 of the building, we can kill it. Yeah, you know, I 251 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:02.720 mean they're that's how far they've come. So that that's a bizarre, crazy 252 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.799 mind set for me. But but getting back to, you know, the 253 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:15.470 the legislation. A lot of this legislation is almost impossible to enforce. Yeah, 254 00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:21.980 not only that, is it puts a lot of the decisionmaking in the 255 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:26.859 hands of the very people who are committing the murders now and have been for 256 00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:32.180 decades. Yeah, not good people. Right, murders, liars, steelers, 257 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:37.690 cheats, you know, lustful, corrupt everything you can label them. 258 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:41.130 That's where they are and we cannot trust those people. And by that you 259 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:44.730 mean like the people who run the abortion absolutely, yeah, the abortionist, 260 00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:47.809 the ultrasound technicians, all those people that are going on in there. So, 261 00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:55.359 so what has really impressed me of recent years is some of these abolitionist 262 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:03.000 who have gone and testified before local councils, have testified in court situations, 263 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:10.190 who have testified in other areas that they have shared then their expertise and their 264 00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:17.230 experience the the shortcomings of some of these legislations. Yeah, one being the 265 00:21:17.309 --> 00:21:19.940 heartbeat bill, and Sarah Cleveland is an abolitionist and she's very seen her own 266 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:26.740 face because she has done some very good interviews and testimonies regarding this, her 267 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:33.170 skill set and how easily a heartbeat bill can be avoided and being yeah, 268 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:44.529 be you know, gone around. Yeah, and and so the consistency is 269 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:55.599 so hard to maintain in a legislation that has exceptions and compromise built in to 270 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.319 it. Yeah, it, I mean, I say so hard, I 271 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.789 think it's impossible. Quite honestly, yeah, I think you cannot be consistent 272 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:10.150 with abolition or the ending of in the hatred of the sin of murder if 273 00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:21.859 you celebrate as a victory the legislation that has compromise and loopholes. Yeah, 274 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:25.220 speak right. Yeah, I mean you have a you have, you know, 275 00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:27.859 like I mentioned earlier, in North Carolina we had, believe it's two 276 00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:33.170 thousand and thirteen, the women's right to no act, which you said that 277 00:22:33.250 --> 00:22:36.450 the woman was supposed to see the ultrasound or at least given the opportunity to 278 00:22:36.450 --> 00:22:40.849 see the ultra sounder for baby. There was information that from the state that 279 00:22:40.970 --> 00:22:44.799 she had to have about the risks of abortion and fetal development and stuff like 280 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:49.720 that. There's a seventy two hour waiting period and and then the twenty week 281 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.200 ban, I think, was wrap. That could be kind of conflating things, 282 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.160 I think maybe, but there was a right away. There was a 283 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.910 judge, because when I heard about the ultrasound thing, I'm like, okay, 284 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.190 we know the ultrasound does give a window to the womb and it does 285 00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.150 save lives. Again, we'd have to trust the abortion clinic is actually going 286 00:23:07.190 --> 00:23:11.309 to do it. They are supposed to do but that got thrown out anyway. 287 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.059 That got thrown out by some judge and Greensboro like right away, and 288 00:23:15.259 --> 00:23:19.019 then the information that's given to them as their counseling. I'm like, okay, 289 00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:22.059 so we we're going to believe this abortion clinic is actually going to give 290 00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:26.259 them the proper information. And actually we found out they can just call up 291 00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.490 on the phone and that's how they get their counsels. Are Recording or whatever. 292 00:23:30.210 --> 00:23:33.210 But the twenty week band, to me it was like, okay, 293 00:23:33.289 --> 00:23:37.609 if babies are saved from that, you know, I'm happy for I'm sort 294 00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:42.200 of like people ask me about politics, I'm like the the go to ask 295 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.680 your questions about abortion guy, because I'm in front of an abortion clinic on 296 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.720 a regular basis and a lot of times I'm sort of embarrassed because, you 297 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.480 know what, I don't really know to about all this stuff. Nashally. 298 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.509 All I know is I'm called to be a witness for these babies at the 299 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.349 abortion clinics and ask people to come over and talk with me and convince them 300 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:04.069 not to kill her babies. So when I hear stuff I hear like like 301 00:24:04.309 --> 00:24:07.869 heartbeat bills and stuff like that, I you know, I'm not not down 302 00:24:07.910 --> 00:24:11.380 about it. One of the things that does trouble me and I think we 303 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:14.539 and this is sort of like, you know, I absolutely agree with this. 304 00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:18.819 Are The exceptions? A matter of fact, it seems like often times, 305 00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:22.859 and that's what happened with Rov Wade, is the exceptions become the rule. 306 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:26.410 Yes, right, so the rape exception, the incest exception and the 307 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.009 health of the mother is like wow, okay, do we really believe that 308 00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:33.250 this is a baby? And even if it's a baby, even if it's 309 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:38.759 a person that was conceived in rape, there's no difference between that baby as 310 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:45.480 far as value is concerned or any other thing concerned is concerned. Then a 311 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.720 baby, he was not conceived in rape. So those exceptions certainly do cause 312 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.789 me concerned. I'm like, well, this is, you know, these 313 00:24:52.829 --> 00:24:57.910 are again loopholes. Like I said, yeah, the exceptions are there. 314 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:03.349 In on one hand they're clear, HMM, clearly wrong. On the other 315 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:11.779 hand we're talking about tragic, horrific circumstances, because it then the reality of 316 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.500 that. So rape, if a woman's rape, that's a horrible scene. 317 00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:19.619 Oh yeah, committed against her, incest, horrible sin committed against her. 318 00:25:22.089 --> 00:25:29.569 And certainly there are health conditions and medical conditions where women are vulnerable and pregnancy's 319 00:25:29.609 --> 00:25:33.769 not a you know it, although it's normal, some things it's very difficult. 320 00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.079 I grew up on a farm, birth and cows and horses and goats 321 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.640 and you know all that, and so it's a and I you know, 322 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.000 I saw my own children. But yeah, so the animal kingdom moves into 323 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:49.309 the human so it is a there's loss of blood, there's there's all kinds 324 00:25:49.349 --> 00:25:53.549 of things that going on. Their pain that you know, that can be 325 00:25:53.789 --> 00:26:03.230 a scary situation and medical situation. So on the one hand that they're clear 326 00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:10.539 that they're wrong and all the other hand they are things that can be manipulated 327 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:17.740 and used to justify. Yeah, and so we have to again be consistent 328 00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:25.490 that there is no justification for this, and sometimes that can come off, 329 00:26:25.970 --> 00:26:29.170 you know, kind of hard. One of the things, you know, 330 00:26:29.650 --> 00:26:33.680 you mentioned about several times now about just being a regular guy. I'm so 331 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.240 we have I'm a regular guy to did you? I'm not a I'm not 332 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.720 a professional, I'm not a historian, I'm not a you know anything, 333 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.519 just a guy loves Jesus and and a guy that hates sin of murder. 334 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:51.150 And so I don't have all the answers, you know, and I don't 335 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:56.150 know how you, you know, walk a woman through some of these harsh 336 00:26:56.269 --> 00:27:02.380 situations. But but I know that we cannot allow the rarity and the exception 337 00:27:02.619 --> 00:27:11.059 to be the rule and we've got to make sure that we do everything we 338 00:27:11.259 --> 00:27:15.259 can according to the Scriptures and according to the love of God and the compassion 339 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:21.450 of God and the care that God would would offer to those exceptional cases. 340 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:25.410 Yeah, and I think that's where we fall short sometimes, and I know 341 00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:30.519 you guys do a great job at that, with the care and compassion that 342 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.920 you show the ladies on the sidewalks and walk and giving them the opportunity to 343 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:38.680 have an ultrasound and to see the baby and not be manipulated like they would 344 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.960 be if there was a requirement in the clinic to do an ultrasound where they 345 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.430 could hide the heartbeat, they could hide the end edge or they could tell 346 00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:52.309 them some sort of deceptive lie that their child is deformed or something. You 347 00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:56.829 guys are kind and compassionate and loving and, you know, graceful and merciful 348 00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:00.259 and you bring them in there and you show them picture and you talk sweetly 349 00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:07.380 to him and and those things are impactful and they they exhibit Christlikeness to those 350 00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:12.130 women and that's a drawl God, the spirit of God uses that. Yeah, 351 00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:19.730 and one other thing is that, although we're highly opposed to the exceptions 352 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:26.359 and to the compromising legislation, I know from my own testimony and personal experience 353 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.559 and from the word of God that God causes all things to work together for 354 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:36.640 good. Yeah, things that are absolutely atrociously evil, wicked, sinful that 355 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.549 that man does, God will work those things out for those who love him 356 00:28:41.589 --> 00:28:47.109 are call according his purposes. So you let a woman and you've talked with 357 00:28:47.230 --> 00:28:51.950 them. I've talked with them. They have done murder, they have committeth 358 00:28:52.269 --> 00:28:56.019 murder, murdered their preborn children, some of them numerous times. Yeah, 359 00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:02.259 theyk find forgiveness, yeah, in Christ. They find new life in Gris. 360 00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:06.660 Actually just had a moment today, who God calls peoples and clinic. 361 00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:11.450 Yeah, God caused that horrible sin of murder and we work, we transition 362 00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:17.890 from the horrible seeing and compromising legislation to the actual carrying out of that. 363 00:29:18.930 --> 00:29:22.490 God can cause good to come out of that in the salvation of that mother 364 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:29.240 or future children or a husband or a relative or whatever. And I'm not, 365 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.000 you know, don't you know, Miss Construe what I'm saying. I'M 366 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.200 NOT JUSTIFYING RIGHT IN AL along the way, because we talked about that over 367 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.869 there. There is no justification and we got to be really that's a delicate 368 00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:47.549 thing that that we, you know, kind of dance around sometimes or have 369 00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:55.140 to maneuver through in order to not, you know, be justifying in our 370 00:29:55.220 --> 00:30:00.460 thoughts and our words or presentation to someone else to allow them to justify. 371 00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:04.779 Yeah. So, yeah, just sharing. We had today mom who came 372 00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:10.250 to the abortion center and she was on her fourth abortion. She had three 373 00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:15.690 prior abortions. Now she was under heavy pressure from the boyfriend, who was 374 00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:19.369 a good guy except for the four babies he wanted to murder, three that 375 00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:22.880 it already murdered. She came, thankfully, came on board the mobultry sound 376 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:29.720 unit and and Vicky and the other counselors showed her babies fifteen weeks. She 377 00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.720 could see clearly little baby's feets and feet and she's like, you know, 378 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.029 in all of the same and ultimately she came under conviction. They share the 379 00:30:38.069 --> 00:30:41.470 Gospel. We do sort of the way of the Master Ray Comfort. When 380 00:30:41.589 --> 00:30:45.390 shared the law, we lay it on them heavy and they see their sin. 381 00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:48.349 It's like, well, Jesus needs to be Lord of your life. 382 00:30:48.390 --> 00:30:49.859 This is not just the thing you do on Sunday. You need to surrender 383 00:30:49.859 --> 00:30:52.660 your life to cheese. And she did and now she's, you know, 384 00:30:53.180 --> 00:30:57.380 working through and now she's empowered to go speak to that boyfriend and be like, 385 00:30:57.859 --> 00:31:00.619 you know, I'm not doing this. She didn't want to. I 386 00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:03.410 was on the streets of Ashville a week or so ago and I had a 387 00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:08.130 lady and her friend approached me and I was holding my sign, graphic image 388 00:31:08.130 --> 00:31:15.210 sign, and she she had mixed feelings about what I was doing. She 389 00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:22.759 was pro life. She was a counselor post abortive counselor, because she had 390 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.079 had four abortions. Yeah, and she that was very think first things out 391 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.400 of her mouth when she approached me was I've had four abortions and now I'm 392 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.990 forgiven. I'm a Christian and I'm counseling women who are post abortive and, 393 00:31:37.309 --> 00:31:41.869 you know, trying to prevent them, you know, from doing abortion abortions. 394 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:48.619 But I am unsure about your methods. Yeah, what you're doing out 395 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:52.299 here holding a sign, and you know what your friend is doing, preaching 396 00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:56.819 so loud and you know, yeah, the Gospel, and you know some 397 00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.339 other things that he's say and you know the law. Yeah, and I'm 398 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:06.529 thinking, I understand, you know, this image juice graphic and it is 399 00:32:06.650 --> 00:32:14.529 graphic to me and it disturbs me because it's the reality. Yeah, and 400 00:32:15.529 --> 00:32:19.480 what happens in Ashville, what happens in Charlotte, what happens in my city 401 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:24.079 of Hickory, where there's is no abortion clinic? Is that out of sight, 402 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:27.839 out of mind? Yeah, and and we've, you know, we've 403 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.349 spent decades out of sight, out of mind, and and we're getting into 404 00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:38.869 a time that we were seeing clinics close. And, YEP, we're seeing 405 00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:43.829 new, bigger ones being built, but we're seeing a lot of clothes and 406 00:32:44.230 --> 00:32:52.140 we're seeing maybe a drop at times in numbers of statistics. are numbers that 407 00:32:52.180 --> 00:33:00.369 are kept. Yeah, we get access to murders that are committed, but 408 00:33:00.369 --> 00:33:07.369 you know, we're we're getting in a delicate, a tricky situation, because 409 00:33:07.769 --> 00:33:13.119 the science is allowing these women to murder their children much easier. Yeah, 410 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.799 at home or in a hotel room or, you know, these peels that 411 00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:22.920 they can take that yeah, that you know. And so we've the the 412 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:30.390 issue of the Gospel and the Scriptures and the the immediate decisionmaking and and the 413 00:33:31.549 --> 00:33:37.470 assistance that you provide a great deal of and that that it's necessary, and 414 00:33:37.990 --> 00:33:43.700 and the agitation of showing the world what's going on, just like they showed 415 00:33:44.660 --> 00:33:47.660 the world slavery. Yeah, showed the world the holocaust of the Jews. 416 00:33:49.819 --> 00:33:54.059 The world has got to see this and face it and in order to honestly 417 00:33:54.890 --> 00:34:00.009 praise you know where they are? Yeah, I know some of the you 418 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:05.690 know, I actually try to stay as much as I can away from the 419 00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:08.929 back and forth on facebook and social media and all the stuff, because I 420 00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:13.679 see, you know, I see abolitionist folks argue with pro life folks and 421 00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:17.440 prolife folks argue with each other and a Ja or abolition its folks argue other. 422 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.320 It's like, man, there's a lot argue going on and like man, 423 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.789 I just I deal with like contention every day right out in front of 424 00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:28.389 an abortion clink. I got want to deal with it on social media as 425 00:34:28.389 --> 00:34:30.789 I sort of stay out of it. But some of the contention I see 426 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:37.550 is kind of around methodology, which is, you know, using victims of 427 00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:44.219 abortion, which we actually we do use victim of abortion images. We don't 428 00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:46.780 use them as much as we used to because we find that our interactions are 429 00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:52.699 more hostile. So we want to have interactions where we're actually can have a 430 00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.050 conversation with somebody strategic with it, and I think you guys are, because 431 00:34:55.050 --> 00:35:00.369 I think that when I've been with you on the street and I brought my, 432 00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:05.329 you know, graphic image, I stand there with my image. I 433 00:35:05.329 --> 00:35:09.000 don't have a whole lot of interaction with the actual girls they're going in or 434 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:15.800 women that are going in you, and but they everybody sees my sign. 435 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:22.550 Yeah, I have some interaction with the you know, people who are evil 436 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:24.590 and wicked and want to, you know, scream at me and curse me 437 00:35:24.989 --> 00:35:29.670 or mock me. But, but, but do you guys have the images? 438 00:35:30.030 --> 00:35:34.829 But you have them their strategically located and sometimes there with somebody who's doing 439 00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.579 basically the same thing I'm doing, which is exposing the evil. But you 440 00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:44.500 have other people that are strategically located, that don't have the graphic image, 441 00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:49.380 that are with you. Okay, so you got both sides covered. You're 442 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:53.329 exposing the evil and you're also, with this person, providing the opportunity to 443 00:35:53.369 --> 00:36:00.369 talk and minister and share the Gospel and offer assistance and you know all those 444 00:36:00.409 --> 00:36:05.239 other things. And so they see that guy with the sign and they may 445 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.599 be a little taken back by that or reject it, but they don't reject 446 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.199 her. Yeah, her, you know, comforting words or, you know, 447 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:17.440 call to talk. So you're really good at that. Okay. And 448 00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:23.789 and those are things that we talk about as abolitionist when we meet. Is 449 00:36:24.349 --> 00:36:30.550 Strategy. Yeah, we've got to be wise, you know, and we 450 00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:36.059 got to be nice. But why? Why is the service and Genie? 451 00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:40.260 So I don't want use the word gentle now. Yeah, but we've got 452 00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:45.860 to we got to be you know. Yeah, all in all, when 453 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:47.849 we when it comes to that. And so we talked about those things. 454 00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:52.929 So when we go out, we kind of try to have the thing covered, 455 00:36:53.409 --> 00:36:59.409 our basis covered when we go to you know, that's why it's better 456 00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:01.280 the more you people you have with you, the more those things. When 457 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:07.599 we talked about some of the other ministries that are involved in pro life that 458 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.079 you know, they don't engage. They may have a worship service or they 459 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:21.510 may do praying or they may sing or whatever, but they don't engage. 460 00:37:21.710 --> 00:37:24.309 Well, that's okay. I know that when I've been on the sidewalk and 461 00:37:24.429 --> 00:37:30.179 I'm engaging and I'm one of a few and I'm out numbered twenty two one 462 00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:35.139 by the other side. And you know, and that in the spiritual warfare 463 00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.500 is already going on. Yeah, more some people. Yeah, and it's 464 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:42.059 dark and it's horrible in the enemies there, you know. And so, 465 00:37:42.380 --> 00:37:45.170 and then all of a sudden you got a group of thirty hundred people from 466 00:37:45.170 --> 00:37:51.090 the church coming down the street singing and praising the Lord and preaching or or 467 00:37:51.769 --> 00:37:54.329 praying or given testimony. That's an encouragement. Yeah, you know, and 468 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:59.960 it tends to shut down the you know, the Voice of the Inn, 469 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.679 I mean. Yeah, so, so those things are necessary and are good. 470 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.079 We just can't we've got to be consistent. I think that the consistency 471 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:12.480 needs to be with them, with us and us with them, you know. 472 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.829 And and whatever area you're in, whether your sidewalk counseling or you're showing 473 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:21.869 a graphic image or you're preaching, you know, Street preaching the Gospel, 474 00:38:21.869 --> 00:38:27.070 or if you're singing and worshiping. We those things need to be covered and 475 00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:31.420 we need to be consistent and we need to be together. Yeah, and 476 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:37.179 you know, the the body of Christ, which is another part of abolition, 477 00:38:37.340 --> 00:38:40.059 and I know it's part of your heart, pro life, whatever you 478 00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:46.090 want to call it. The body of Christ is the driving force, so 479 00:38:46.250 --> 00:38:52.449 to speak. It's the spirit filled human you know that. That is the 480 00:38:52.530 --> 00:39:00.480 body of Christ that is pushing this power to overcome the evil that's that's in 481 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:06.559 front of us. So that guy over there who doesn't engage, only sings, 482 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.429 or that guy over there that's on his knees praying his heart out, 483 00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:15.630 shedding tears, weeping, or the guy that's over here preaching the Gospel and 484 00:39:15.909 --> 00:39:17.750 get letting them have it, but the guy standing over here, Havn't with 485 00:39:17.869 --> 00:39:21.989 the sign, not saying a word, the exposing the evil, or the 486 00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:27.500 sweetheart setting over here saying mother, please let me talk to you, let 487 00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.699 me help you, let me share with you what I'm willing to do. 488 00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:35.019 Every one of those people are my brothers and sisters. Yeah, and we 489 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.809 have got to be together. Yeah, I have no animosity. I've never 490 00:39:37.849 --> 00:39:42.570 had any animosity toward you. I've always had the utmost respect for you and 491 00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:46.570 your faithfulness and service, and and yet we have our differences. We've talked 492 00:39:46.570 --> 00:39:50.730 about them. Right now. Yeah, that's okay, man. I want 493 00:39:50.730 --> 00:39:52.599 to do that, but if you need me, you call me. If 494 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.679 you say Carl Dana, pay down here, come hold your sign. I'm 495 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.039 on there, you know. And and if I needed you to come speak 496 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.519 to a group that you know, you would come. Yeah, so that 497 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:07.230 that is an important thing. And so I agree with you on some of 498 00:40:07.269 --> 00:40:10.949 the social media kind of stuff. As at as an abolitionist, I could 499 00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:15.389 have plenty of conflict. All how it does up my mouth or hold my 500 00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:17.070 side sometime. Don't have to my mouth, just almost side and I get 501 00:40:17.110 --> 00:40:21.269 plenty of conflict. I don't have to go searching for it and I don't 502 00:40:21.269 --> 00:40:25.260 have to show up at every argument that's out there. I do, I 503 00:40:25.539 --> 00:40:29.500 like to debate, you know, and stuff like that, but at the 504 00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:32.780 same time I try to keep in mind you're talking to a brother in Christ 505 00:40:32.900 --> 00:40:37.929 here, and you have the spirit of God living you in mind of Christ, 506 00:40:37.969 --> 00:40:43.329 and you don't no longer recognize people as their flesh. You recognize them 507 00:40:43.369 --> 00:40:45.969 according to the spirit of God, and so you really need to be mindful 508 00:40:45.969 --> 00:40:51.000 of that when you're debating and and, you know, hashing out some of 509 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:52.920 these differences. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, the body of 510 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:58.800 Christ working together. Let me stare one thing. Yeah, before we move 511 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:07.789 forward, you mentioned at the outset abolitionists, pro life, Aja Osa, 512 00:41:07.630 --> 00:41:13.269 there's there's all kinds of groups out there that are that are everywhere in the 513 00:41:13.550 --> 00:41:17.940 spectrum of abolitionist to pro life, whether you're consistent or inconsistent, how far 514 00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:24.900 apart you are. There's everything and everybody in between there. I'm I'm somewhere 515 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.739 in between there. Yeah, okay. I know a lot of the guys 516 00:41:28.820 --> 00:41:31.019 in Aha. I know that some a lot of the guys in Osa. 517 00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:37.610 I know you. I know the guys in Love Life Charlotte. I mean 518 00:41:37.809 --> 00:41:45.889 there's all kinds of stuff going on that where Christians are involved. We consider 519 00:41:46.050 --> 00:41:53.199 ourselves abolish abortion North Carolina, okay, and so we don't we don't want 520 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:59.760 to be labeled or tagged to the point that, you know, we're having 521 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:05.230 to be contentious or were having to constantly defend things and answer questions about things 522 00:42:05.269 --> 00:42:12.829 that we haven't a focus and a heart and a drive toward what's going on 523 00:42:13.429 --> 00:42:17.860 right here in our backyard in North Carolina, and that is to abolish preborn 524 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:22.739 murder here. Yeah, and I don't want to be distracted with constant, 525 00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:30.889 you know, bickering or dissension within the rank, so to speak. We're 526 00:42:30.929 --> 00:42:35.809 certainly willing to talk and have these discussions about differences or whatever, or methods 527 00:42:35.849 --> 00:42:39.889 and all those things. But we so we just, you know, we're 528 00:42:39.889 --> 00:42:45.519 abolition of society. We have the state covered. We have people from Ashville 529 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:51.000 to Ashe County, to my area of Hickory, to Thomasville, Charlotte, 530 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.599 Greensboro, Raleigh, Jacksonville. So we're from the coast to the central to 531 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.590 the mountains and and we're a rag tag, you know, Motley crew of 532 00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:05.389 abolitionist and that's okay. Yeah, you know, and one of the things 533 00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:10.269 I appreciate about you is your faithfulness and being here in Charlotte, in a 534 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:15.579 in a central location for so long, you know, seventeen years of ministry 535 00:43:15.619 --> 00:43:22.219 here, and and what's going on with with Love Life Charlotte to a degree 536 00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:30.610 that we're this area is an exceptional area in the sense that I hear a 537 00:43:30.730 --> 00:43:35.090 lot from whether it's pro life or abolitionists around the country, that it's a 538 00:43:35.130 --> 00:43:38.690 ghost town outside of clinics and meals and yeah, in other parts of the 539 00:43:38.769 --> 00:43:43.639 country and their begging and other parts of the world they're begging for other people 540 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:45.719 to just show up. Yeah, and so one of the things that we 541 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:51.360 talked about earlier was if you're begging and you're wanting, people will just to 542 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.679 show up. When they show up, don't go nitpicking, you know. 543 00:43:54.989 --> 00:43:59.309 Yeah, what they're what they're doing. Necessarily, they showed up. Yeah, 544 00:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.230 you know, give them a chance. One of the things I shared 545 00:44:02.269 --> 00:44:07.349 with you is that, you know, we nippick a certain church that may 546 00:44:07.429 --> 00:44:12.179 show up outside the clinic because we've seen their bumper sticker inside the parking lot, 547 00:44:12.260 --> 00:44:15.820 and then the next week another church comes down the street and the first 548 00:44:15.860 --> 00:44:19.980 thing goes through your mind is, Oh Gosh, another bunch of them. 549 00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:22.619 Yeah, you know, and you turn around and it's the people from your 550 00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:24.530 own church ry. Yeah, you know, God will put a check on 551 00:44:24.650 --> 00:44:29.650 you real quick if you don't keep those kind of things, you know, 552 00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:36.570 in in perspective. So that's you know, and I don't I'm not I 553 00:44:36.610 --> 00:44:38.280 don't want to think, I don't want you to think that I'm being selfish 554 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.320 by coming here today, but one of the things that I really value about 555 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:49.400 our time together is that I get an opportunity to share with the group and 556 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.949 the people that you know and the people that are listening to this podcast or 557 00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:55.670 viewing this podcast, abolition. Yeah, that's all I want to do. 558 00:44:55.909 --> 00:45:00.309 Yeah, there it is. If you got more questions, go to abolsh 559 00:45:00.349 --> 00:45:04.869 abortion North Carolinecom and find your answers. Yeah, or, you know, 560 00:45:04.989 --> 00:45:07.340 contact us and ask us. I'm not out here to steal your people. 561 00:45:07.340 --> 00:45:12.820 I'm not trying to infiltrate your group. I'm not trying to down you know, 562 00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:15.780 downgrade anything you've ever done or what other people are doing. I'm simply 563 00:45:15.860 --> 00:45:21.530 presenting abolition and and I'm want to stick to the tenants and I want to 564 00:45:21.570 --> 00:45:25.849 do it by assistance with your exceptional at and I'm good at agitation. Yeah, 565 00:45:25.849 --> 00:45:29.570 I like holding my sign and if somebody wants to talk, I'll be 566 00:45:29.650 --> 00:45:31.809 glad to talk. And however you want to come at me, you know 567 00:45:31.969 --> 00:45:36.400 I'll try to be as gentle as I can, but I'm not going to 568 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.840 compromise and I'm going to be consistent with the law enough in the faith. 569 00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.360 Yeah. So, yeah, that's good. I appreciate you coming, man, 570 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.440 because I think this is again a question that people have. People that 571 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:52.949 are that are brand new into prolife or abolitionist stuff. I think need to 572 00:45:52.030 --> 00:45:58.989 hear the conversation like this and need to understand sort of why these issues are 573 00:45:59.030 --> 00:46:02.030 important, and I think a conversation like this sort of takes away some of 574 00:46:02.070 --> 00:46:06.820 the the contention that can be there and some of the bad view either way. 575 00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:08.260 Right, right, you know the bad view. The pro life people 576 00:46:08.260 --> 00:46:12.579 are all like this, or they abolitionist people are all like this, and 577 00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:16.300 no matter what you know, this is. I know that you're not speaking 578 00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:21.130 speaking for everyone who's an age a person or we claim to be an abolitionist. 579 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:24.570 I'm certainly not speaking for everybody that would claim to be prolife or whatever. 580 00:46:25.730 --> 00:46:29.610 Not a monolithic group either way. Right. Ultimately, though, what 581 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:34.400 it comes down to is the Gospel being the center of the thing. Anything 582 00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.519 we do, we I say it and I'll say it again. I spoke 583 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.840 with the church just the other night, with their evangelism team. I said, 584 00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:45.840 listen, if we're doing anything that is good, that's not reclaim in 585 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:51.909 the Gospel, it's just a humanitarian effort. Right, humanitarian efforts are good. 586 00:46:52.150 --> 00:46:54.789 That's fine. Do Humanitarian Efforts, but if you're going to claim to 587 00:46:54.829 --> 00:46:59.230 be Gospel censored, that Gospel has to be a part of what you're doing, 588 00:46:59.510 --> 00:47:05.300 or else it's just a humanitarian effort. Jesus didn't say that that he's 589 00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.940 gonna build his humanitarian effort that's about to tell people Jesus didn't say that I'm 590 00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.619 going to build my prolife movement. Now he says I'm going to build my 591 00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.050 church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it's not. The gates of 592 00:47:15.130 --> 00:47:20.489 hell won't prevail against the abolitionist or the pro life people or the Blah Blah 593 00:47:20.530 --> 00:47:23.050 Blah, Blah Blah whatever. The gates of hell do not prevail against the 594 00:47:23.170 --> 00:47:27.489 Church of Jesus Christ and ultimately, what it's about, the true body of 595 00:47:27.530 --> 00:47:30.559 Christ bring in the Gospel, and so I appreciate that that perspective from you. 596 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.320 Appreciate you. You coming and talking and I can't. God never said 597 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.679 I could. He can and he always said he would. Yeah, this 598 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.920 ain't about me and you and it ain't about anybody else that we can lay 599 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:47.110 our eyes on. I learned a long time ago, and discipleship and counseling, 600 00:47:47.949 --> 00:47:51.829 been involved in that for twenty years, one on one, and you 601 00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:54.590 know, groups and couples and all those kind of things, is that you've 602 00:47:54.590 --> 00:47:58.739 got to deal with the soul that's right in front of you. Yeah, 603 00:47:58.940 --> 00:48:04.980 and it's not about you and not necessarily about them. It's about him. 604 00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:08.179 Yeah, and when Christ is the central thing, the Gospel, which is 605 00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:12.619 found in the word of God, stick to the truth, stick to the 606 00:48:12.739 --> 00:48:15.730 Gospel, God will, will carry out his word, will not come back 607 00:48:15.849 --> 00:48:21.849 board. His spirit is not incapable. Yeah, all power, all ability, 608 00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:25.650 all work is done in Christ. And and that's how you change the 609 00:48:25.730 --> 00:48:29.360 world. Yeah, that's how he changed the world. That's how he commissioned 610 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.199 US and commanded us to go out and do the same thing. Amen. 611 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.519 Amen, I appreciate it. But I appreciate you talking, man, and 612 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.079 you're what's the website? Now? Abolish abortion North Carolina. Okay, abolish 613 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.150 abortion North Carolina. And if somebody goes on that website, is there like 614 00:48:44.230 --> 00:48:46.389 a contact thing so they can cheat every email? They should be able to 615 00:48:46.590 --> 00:48:51.389 and they should also be able to sign our petition. We didn't get into 616 00:48:51.389 --> 00:48:53.670 a whole lot of stuff like that, but you know you, I've seen 617 00:48:53.710 --> 00:48:59.019 you guys down at the city council meeting. We've got to be out there, 618 00:48:59.139 --> 00:49:02.780 we got to got to take advantage of every thing that that is set 619 00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:08.739 before us to make a difference and bring the Gospel to the community. So 620 00:49:09.170 --> 00:49:15.250 City Councils, your local legislators, your local, local communities, churches, 621 00:49:16.409 --> 00:49:24.679 legislators, you know, state capitals, anything that you can do to present 622 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.039 the message, petitions, whatever you can do. Get out there and do 623 00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.199 it. Show up, speak up, you know. Yeah, do the 624 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:37.199 work of abolition. Yeah, okay, so that. Yeah, so connect 625 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:45.030 with with Carl on their website, abolish aboard or in see our North Carolinacom, 626 00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:49.190 and then our website is Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org, and 627 00:49:49.230 --> 00:49:52.829 they we also have a national website that we mentioned often, which is sidewalks 628 00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:55.820 for life, so I walks the number four, and Lifecom, which is 629 00:49:55.860 --> 00:50:00.059 an equipping website, which is basically, Hey, we've learned and we've learned 630 00:50:00.059 --> 00:50:02.179 a lot. We've made a lot of mistakes and so I will counseling. 631 00:50:02.539 --> 00:50:06.860 Here's the stuff that we've learned since just information out there to quit people, 632 00:50:06.900 --> 00:50:08.730 to bring the Gospel to the abortion center. So those who are who are 633 00:50:08.730 --> 00:50:12.690 listening, those who are watching, you can go to there. You can 634 00:50:12.730 --> 00:50:15.409 connect with Carl their website. We appreciate you, guys, and just pray 635 00:50:15.449 --> 00:50:20.289 that you're blessed by listening to this podcast and if you have a question about 636 00:50:20.289 --> 00:50:23.599 this podcast or anything for me, Daniel Parks or d parks. Sorry, 637 00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:28.119 at cities, the number four and lifecom. You can shoot me over an 638 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.119 email. Be certainly willing to connect you with Carl if maybe you need to 639 00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:34.639 be connected with him or you have any questions. But we appreciate all those 640 00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:39.389 who watch and listen. Thanks and God blessed. Use, MIL use, 641 00:50:42.869 --> 00:51:05.610 give me my life, but now things too precious.