Abolitionist or Pro-Life, Which One is Biblical?

WEBVTT100:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me,200:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.150Lord, I am yours. Welcometo Gospel Center pro life and this episode300:00:11.150 --> 00:00:14.710we're going to talk to abolitionist CarlTurnmeyer. We're going to ask the question400:00:14.869 --> 00:00:24.379abolitionist or pro life, which oneis biblical? Stay tuned. I felt500:00:24.820 --> 00:00:34.619show passish touch your heart. Welcometo the Gospel Center pro life podcast.600:00:34.780 --> 00:00:39.890Appreciate all those who are watching orlistening. The question that we're asking in700:00:39.969 --> 00:00:46.289this podcast is abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? And it's800:00:46.289 --> 00:00:50.960not really to say that that neitherone or both are biblical or ones more900:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.719biblical than the other. We're justtalking through this thing because it's a question1000:00:53.799 --> 00:00:57.439a lot of people have, andso I have with me today Carl Turnmeier,1100:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.600who is an abolitionist, who's withI don't know. Ah is not1200:01:02.719 --> 00:01:06.230necessarily an organization you say you're under, but people have the the AH a1300:01:06.349 --> 00:01:11.349philosophy, and so I wanted tojust kind of share Carl real quick,1400:01:11.349 --> 00:01:15.430if you can, sort of maybea summary of what what you see.1500:01:15.430 --> 00:01:18.939And it's not a monolithic group.There's a bunch of different abolitionists and people1600:01:18.980 --> 00:01:23.299that they are part of Aj andwhatnot who have different, varying beliefs about1700:01:23.299 --> 00:01:26.140abolition and that sort of thing.But from your perspective, what is the1800:01:26.219 --> 00:01:32.140abolishes philosophy? Well, first letme just say that, you know,1900:01:32.180 --> 00:01:37.450I've been involved in this since thelate S, okay, my first introduction2000:01:37.609 --> 00:01:44.290to preborn murder. I tend touse that as opposed to the euphemism of2100:01:44.409 --> 00:01:48.840abortion. Yeah, sure, becausethat's the reality of what we're talking about.2200:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.599Yeah, was when my wife andI were thinking that she was pregnant2300:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.799and I was in college and wewent to a clinic to do a pregnancy2400:01:59.879 --> 00:02:05.030test and we found out that shewas pregnant. Yeah, and they offered2500:02:05.189 --> 00:02:09.830to provide us with an abortion.Wow, and I grew up, you2600:02:09.909 --> 00:02:14.590know, I'm fifty years old.Grew up in a different generation than today,2700:02:14.750 --> 00:02:20.259certainly, and I was a Iwas up the belief that, you2800:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.379know, a woman who's pregnant ispregnant with a human child. If she2900:02:23.539 --> 00:02:25.020give your time, she's going todeliver a baby. Yeah, that was3000:02:25.139 --> 00:02:30.810my baby. Yeah, and andthat you do what's right. Yeah,3100:02:30.930 --> 00:02:36.729and so I was shocked by thatoption, that opportunity that they were presenting3200:02:36.770 --> 00:02:39.169to us, and my wife wasalso shocked by it. That was our3300:02:39.330 --> 00:02:46.560first introduction to this and so Ifrom that day a forward, my wife3400:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.560and I got involved and everything thatwe could. Regarding pro life, because3500:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.879we are for life. Yeah,and I think that along with the euphemism3600:02:55.919 --> 00:03:04.349of abortion comes the terminologies around whatwe're talking about, prolife and abolition.3700:03:06.509 --> 00:03:08.870Can I say that I'm prolife?Absolutely. Would you say your prolife?3800:03:08.909 --> 00:03:13.659Absolutely, because we are for life, we won't. We think life is3900:03:13.780 --> 00:03:17.979something that God has has given andit's of him, and so, you4000:03:19.099 --> 00:03:22.259know, we are for that.God wants us to be for that.4100:03:22.300 --> 00:03:31.569As far as abolition goes, inthis day abolition has a primary focus on4200:03:34.409 --> 00:03:39.330doing a way with the practice prebornmurder. Yeah, but abolition as it4300:03:39.530 --> 00:03:45.759really a mindset or ideology, orspirit, if you will, that has4400:03:45.800 --> 00:03:50.599been around eternally. Yeah, Christcame to abolish the works of the devil.4500:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.840So, yeah, abolition. Thatword abolish is a scriptural word,4600:03:54.990 --> 00:04:00.710and so and you and you seecoming through history, biblical history, of4700:04:00.830 --> 00:04:02.870the the prophets and the things thatwe're going on with the Kings, when4800:04:02.909 --> 00:04:09.430they were godly men, men ofGod, they abolished the wicked sins that4900:04:09.550 --> 00:04:12.300were going on in the culture.Yes, you like. They tore down5000:04:12.300 --> 00:04:15.459the high places. They, youknow, they destroyed idols, and one5100:04:15.500 --> 00:04:19.779of those idols was a idol thatchildren were sacrificed to. Yeah, Molich.5200:04:19.860 --> 00:04:24.290Yeah, right. So that abutt, that that ideology or that5300:04:24.410 --> 00:04:29.850philosophy or that spirit what has alwaysbeen around. It's a in Christ being5400:04:29.930 --> 00:04:35.129the eternal son of God, inthe eternal word of God. Having demonstrated5500:04:35.170 --> 00:04:41.399that and spoken that through his wordshows us that that is an eternal sort5600:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.079of work. Yeah, God's doing. Okay, abolition in my mind is5700:04:47.079 --> 00:04:51.439first of all, it's Gospel Centered, Gospel Focus, because, apart from5800:04:51.480 --> 00:04:58.550changing the souls of human beings,there's no way that that preborn murder will5900:04:58.750 --> 00:05:02.069will never be unconsionable. Yeah,until you have a change of soul,6000:05:02.670 --> 00:05:13.060mind, will, emotions and deeds, then abortion will not be done away6100:05:13.100 --> 00:05:16.540with. Yeah, that's the key, is to change their hearts and souls6200:05:16.579 --> 00:05:20.019and minds. Yeah, I justhad a conversation today. I was talking6300:05:20.060 --> 00:05:24.290to one of the pro choice,I put it in quotes because it's really6400:05:24.329 --> 00:05:27.889pro abortion ladies out in front ofthe abortion clinic and and she was talking6500:05:27.889 --> 00:05:30.009about and I was talking about thisvery subject. She was talking about US6600:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.410limiting abortions and how we want tolimit woman's right to choose. I'm like,6700:05:33.529 --> 00:05:36.879well, actually want to limit abortions. I want it to be illegal,6800:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.240like completely illegal, to have anabortion. And she was like,6900:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.680well, you know, if you, if you do that, women are7000:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.600going to have illegal abortions. Somepeople have a illegal abortions now, like7100:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.029they still do that. And youdon't take a moral evil that I believe7200:05:51.029 --> 00:05:56.189abortion to be and in legalize itto make it safe or to make it7300:05:56.430 --> 00:06:00.269look better. It's like it's it'swrong. It's like slavery, he which7400:06:00.310 --> 00:06:04.100is where the abolition is exact lotof the language comes from. You know,7500:06:04.180 --> 00:06:08.699you don't make slavery legal so thatit's so you're able to regulate it7600:06:08.860 --> 00:06:13.060better. It's a moral evil.People still own slaves now in the city7700:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.500Charlotte, as a matter of fact, like number, like I don't know7800:06:15.620 --> 00:06:18.730what number four or five, andsex trafficking in the nation. And so,7900:06:18.930 --> 00:06:24.370yeah, so speaks the kind ofwhat you're saying, that today there's8000:06:24.449 --> 00:06:28.209more slavery going on in the worldthan her has ever been in history.8100:06:28.290 --> 00:06:32.959Yeah, so we abolish slavery,but yet slavery still occurs. Does that8200:06:33.079 --> 00:06:38.519mean that we were we were wefailed or that we were wrong? Absolutely8300:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.639not. We did exactly what shouldhave been done. Yeah, that is8400:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.199was a moral evil that should havebeen abolished and we did it. And8500:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.949yet wicked evil people still seein andbring yeah, break the law and do8600:06:50.069 --> 00:06:55.470criminal things. It's just like murderis abolished in the sense that it is8700:06:55.709 --> 00:07:00.750highly illegal. Yeah, and yetpeople in Charlotte, you know, highest8800:07:00.149 --> 00:07:03.660more murders I've already occurred this yearand then last year. Yeah, you8900:07:03.779 --> 00:07:06.500know, it's not the highest yearin history, but you know, yeah,9000:07:06.740 --> 00:07:12.819it does. You're speaking to reallykind of the really the focus of9100:07:12.899 --> 00:07:15.970this podcast, which we're talking aboutGospel centered pro life. Like we started9200:07:16.009 --> 00:07:18.529out the first podcast we did,we we talked about what it means to9300:07:18.610 --> 00:07:24.810be Gospel centered in pro life,and there's pro life ministries and organizations that9400:07:24.850 --> 00:07:28.689are out there that, you know, come at it from maybe a philosophical9500:07:29.089 --> 00:07:31.959standpoint, which, you know,philosophy certainly is great and all of that,9600:07:32.480 --> 00:07:38.360and I don't downplay that, butif we're not focused in the Gospel,9700:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.079like you're saying, if the Gospelisn't the key isn't the focus,9800:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.910then the human heart isn't changed andabortion is still kind of an option.9900:07:45.990 --> 00:07:47.750They are. So, yeah,you're speaking, you're speaking my language rather.10000:07:47.790 --> 00:07:51.709Absolutely, Gospel Changes and there forthe Gospel to be the center with10100:07:53.029 --> 00:07:56.870that means that the scripture has gotto be yeah, you know, a10200:07:57.230 --> 00:08:00.899major key to doing it, becausethat's where you find the Gospel. And10300:08:01.019 --> 00:08:05.620so we take the full Gospel,we don't truncate it, we don't aggregate10400:08:05.660 --> 00:08:11.860it, we give everything that gotthat Christ presented. That that the the10500:08:11.939 --> 00:08:15.810whole Scriptures present in the Gospel.But we also take into count the whole10600:08:15.810 --> 00:08:20.769council of scripture, because we don'tdiscount the the way the that God spoke10700:08:20.850 --> 00:08:22.649to his people there, the waythat God work through his people or the10800:08:22.689 --> 00:08:26.050way that God uses his people,whether it was Old Testament and New Testament10900:08:26.129 --> 00:08:30.560or today. Yeah, so thewhole council of Scripture has got to come11000:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.720into play as we reach people withthe Gospel and then we disciple them through11100:08:35.799 --> 00:08:41.269the Gospel into becoming full, youknow, mature believers. Yeah, that's11200:08:41.309 --> 00:08:45.350got to be done through the wholecouncil of Scripture. Yeah, well,11300:08:45.389 --> 00:08:48.070speak real quick if you if youcan again, this is not, you11400:08:48.110 --> 00:08:50.549know, this is not a debateformat. We're debating about this thing.11500:08:50.830 --> 00:08:56.659I personally as as a dude thatjust loves Jesus and loves people and things.11600:08:56.700 --> 00:09:00.220Abortion is evil. I say I'mprolife because I'm for life, and11700:09:00.259 --> 00:09:03.340people know what you're saying. Yousay your prolife. Oh you're against abortion.11800:09:03.379 --> 00:09:07.100Yeah, I'm contended to be calledanti abortion, like I'm anti slavery,11900:09:07.340 --> 00:09:11.169I'm Antisex, draffing him, I'manti drug addiction, anti for an12000:09:11.169 --> 00:09:15.730occasion. So I'm content. Butso just a regular dude like myself who's12100:09:15.769 --> 00:09:18.730not, you know, maybe necessarilyin the abolitionist camp, but probably agree12200:09:18.769 --> 00:09:24.080with a lot of the tenants ofabolition. Speak a little bit, if12300:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.120you can, about the differences betweenpro life and abolition, like why you12400:09:28.399 --> 00:09:33.279personally wouldn't say I'm part of thepro life move right. Well, like12500:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.590I said before, and sharing mypersonal testimony, was that when my wife12600:09:37.590 --> 00:09:46.190and I started early, you know, thirty years ago, working for for12700:09:46.429 --> 00:09:50.549life, the avenue that we took, which was pretty kind of the only12800:09:50.590 --> 00:09:58.419available avenue, and me not beinga mature believer at the time, just12900:09:58.659 --> 00:10:03.779being introduced into, you know,living the Christian life. Yeah, that13000:10:05.019 --> 00:10:09.250was pro life. Was the movementthat you only came in town. Maybe.13100:10:09.330 --> 00:10:15.250Yeah. So I spent at leasta decade working in and every facet13200:10:15.409 --> 00:10:18.210that I could in the pro lifemovement. You know, certainly in my13300:10:18.330 --> 00:10:22.639church, in the community, beinginvolved on the board of directors at my13400:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.200local Pregnacy Care Center, counseling,you know, marching, being in the13500:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.840streets, raising money, leading mychurch to go and be involved, speaking13600:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.230to other churches, other pastors.So you know, I kind of run13700:10:37.309 --> 00:10:41.710the gamut of of pro life work. And at the end of the day,13800:10:41.750 --> 00:10:46.789at the end of the decade,I was disappointed. Yeah, I13900:10:46.909 --> 00:10:54.580was frustrated because I didn't see thefruit, I guess, and there the14000:10:54.700 --> 00:11:01.019results. And then I started thinkingwhat's going on here? And and when14100:11:01.100 --> 00:11:03.970you when you try to figure out, after you've invested a decade into doing14200:11:05.049 --> 00:11:07.610something, what's going on, yougot to back up. You got to14300:11:07.649 --> 00:11:09.649back up not only the decade thatyou've been going on, but before that,14400:11:09.850 --> 00:11:13.090what was going on? Where didI come in and what was going14500:11:13.129 --> 00:11:16.490on before I came in? Andso I started backing up and I backed14600:11:16.529 --> 00:11:22.679up to Rov Wade and I backedup to the early nineteen century. And14700:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.639and so I started and then Istarted studying about abolition. And when you14800:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.909go through the history of abolition,not only do you find it in the14900:11:33.990 --> 00:11:37.029scriptures, and I was certainly studyingthe scriptures as well as I could,15000:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.629and I was seeing these people,you know, fighting and speaking out a15100:11:41.950 --> 00:11:46.389proclaiming the word of God against,you know, being against the evil and15200:11:46.509 --> 00:11:52.259wicked in the world. And andso that was an inspiration for me to15300:11:52.419 --> 00:11:56.179find out. You know, howdo you how do you do that today15400:11:56.980 --> 00:12:05.090with this evil? Yeah, andand obviously the correlations between this evil of15500:12:05.210 --> 00:12:09.809the humanization of the preborn matches alot of the dehumanization that was going on15600:12:09.929 --> 00:12:13.090with slavery. Yes, sure,and abolitionists were there. And so you15700:12:13.769 --> 00:12:20.039run that thing up to those earlyabolitionist British abolitionist, early American abolitionists,15800:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.600and you study those guys, Wilberforceand garrison and and those guys, and15900:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.309you see what was going on andyou read the things that they said,16000:12:30.429 --> 00:12:35.110the things that they did. Powerfulnow from me, and that made an16100:12:35.149 --> 00:12:39.990impact that they were hated. Yeah, and you know, Jesus said,16200:12:41.029 --> 00:12:43.830if the world loves you, bettertake a look at the right yeah,16300:12:43.950 --> 00:12:46.500they're going to hate you the sameway they hated me and they certainly hated16400:12:46.539 --> 00:12:50.100these guys, and these guys werecertainly Christians and Biblical. And so I16500:12:50.379 --> 00:13:00.610found a lot of passion and compassionand inspiration through those early abolitionists that inspired16600:13:00.730 --> 00:13:05.490me to being abolitionists. Yeah,but you when you went through a minute16700:13:05.529 --> 00:13:11.009ago talking about being anti and beingproud of that, and I appreciate that16800:13:11.129 --> 00:13:15.440because I'm anti too. Yeah,and one of the things that I found16900:13:15.440 --> 00:13:22.720to be a difference between prolife andabolitionist is that today in my community with17000:13:22.919 --> 00:13:30.470the pro life folks, when Ihave spoken to them and said anything about17100:13:30.470 --> 00:13:41.980abortion being murder or being an abolitionistand being against abortion, I've been reprimanding.17200:13:43.139 --> 00:13:46.460Okay, yeah, as being anti, you know, abortion. We17300:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.340don't want to be anti abortion,we want to be prolife. Yeah,17400:13:50.539 --> 00:13:54.019and and so the one of thethings about pro life movement is I think17500:13:54.179 --> 00:14:01.490that they want to be so positivethat they waiver on the truth sometimes or17600:14:01.490 --> 00:14:07.450they compromise for the positivity of beingpro life, which what we were talking17700:14:07.610 --> 00:14:16.159earlier before the program the justification thatthat can sometimes present to people who are17800:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.639abortion or murder minded. Yeah,when we're soft on that or when we're17900:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.710positive, that takes the edge offof the reality of what they're doing.18000:14:26.950 --> 00:14:31.029Yeah, yeah, so that's one. Just one thing. Yeah, one18100:14:31.070 --> 00:14:43.059of the other biggest things for meis the meet the immediate call for abolition18200:14:43.220 --> 00:14:46.820to accolish and we're to getting getaround it. It is it. That's18300:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.539kind of the some of the tension. It's like it is mediatism versus incrementalism.18400:14:50.659 --> 00:14:54.769So, yeah, and so so. So to clarify that one a18500:14:54.809 --> 00:14:58.210little bit, is what I liketo think of is I when we talk18600:14:58.289 --> 00:15:05.330a about immediate we are talking aboutit's sort of like a decision for Christ.18700:15:05.730 --> 00:15:09.399When I'm sharing the Gospel with youor I'm leading a person to Christ,18800:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.600I lead everybody to Christ. Yeah, they where do they choose?18900:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.960Right, it is there, youknow, on them. But you lead19000:15:16.000 --> 00:15:22.070everybody to Christ. And what isyour desire? That today is the day19100:15:22.149 --> 00:15:26.070of salvation. You want that immediatedecision, that immediate change of mind,19200:15:26.149 --> 00:15:33.309that immediate newness of life, Spiritfield, salvation, justification on the spot.19300:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.779Yeah, and so that's the wayI picture abolition as we want the19400:15:37.899 --> 00:15:43.820immediate end to this evil sin.There's no compromise with it. It's pure19500:15:45.580 --> 00:15:50.370evil, wicked and we want animmediately into it and that takes steps,19600:15:52.169 --> 00:15:58.450which sounds like incrementalism, right,yeah, but incrementalism tends to be okay19700:15:58.490 --> 00:16:04.639all along the way and abolition isnever okay all along the way, because19800:16:04.720 --> 00:16:11.080we wanted the mediate end. We'realways set, you know, our we're19900:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.279star, our focus is set likeflint to that immediate, yeah, end,20000:16:15.559 --> 00:16:23.429and so anything that that takes theedge off of that immediate, you20100:16:23.509 --> 00:16:30.149know, impact is is hard forus to swallow. It's yeah, it20200:16:30.350 --> 00:16:33.580seems a little bit like compromise.And so then then you start getting into20300:16:33.620 --> 00:16:36.379all the details of that and youcould chase a thousand realities. Yeah,20400:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.539on the details, but but thethe easiest details are the incremental legislation that's20500:16:41.539 --> 00:16:45.980going on shore for Life Movement fordecades. Yeah. Well, like we20600:16:47.059 --> 00:16:49.370talked about, like you said beforethe program we're talking a little bit about20700:16:49.370 --> 00:16:55.090the politics of abortion and how alot of of the political system, you20800:16:55.169 --> 00:16:59.610know, a lot of these prolifeI say that in quotes, politicians are20900:16:59.649 --> 00:17:04.079basically, you just playing on peoplesensitivities to get votes and in store that21000:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.319becomes a problem. Yeah, hugeproblem for me. This again, just21100:17:08.440 --> 00:17:15.509a just a regular dude who thinksJesus is awesome and loves people and hates21200:17:15.509 --> 00:17:22.509abortion. But to me, whenI see legislation, which I you know,21300:17:22.549 --> 00:17:26.390I've heard the debates, have listenedto some debates between the abolitionist and21400:17:26.710 --> 00:17:32.299prolife people about that incrementalism when legislationpass. He did some legislation, I21500:17:32.420 --> 00:17:36.460think it's two thousand and thirteen hereNorth Carolina, where they said basically,21600:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.380you know, a woman has tobe given the ultrasound, she has to21700:17:38.420 --> 00:17:41.460be able to see the ultrasound.And then they did a twenty week band21800:17:42.700 --> 00:17:45.369and you know, we're people rejoicingover that. I was like yeah,21900:17:45.450 --> 00:17:48.009I guess, Praise God. Youknow, it's a band. If I'm22000:17:48.049 --> 00:17:51.529a baby at twenty one weeks,my mom walks into it them. I'll22100:17:51.529 --> 00:17:53.650look at it from love your neighbor. This baby's my neighbor. If I'm22200:17:53.650 --> 00:17:57.569a baby that's twenty one weeks,my mom walks into an abortion clinic and22300:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.960because of the twenty one week ortwenty week ban, she can't kill me,22400:18:02.359 --> 00:18:06.279I'm going to be happy for thatlegislation. The problem, I think,22500:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.039comes in again just looking at itfrom a practical perspective. The problem22600:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.990of it comes in if we're ableto settle, and a lot of people22700:18:12.990 --> 00:18:17.589are like we won some kind ofvictory because we have a twenty week ban22800:18:17.910 --> 00:18:21.269or or whatever we might have.We have a partial birth abortion band and22900:18:21.349 --> 00:18:22.789we want some kind of victory.I'm like, well, if that's how23000:18:22.829 --> 00:18:25.589we're going to view it, ifwe're going to think, think that we23100:18:25.670 --> 00:18:30.180can go take a breath because wegot this incremental thing, I don't think23200:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.740so, guys. We got topress into this time. We gotta see23300:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.019if we believe abortion is murder,and I do. We need to see23400:18:37.059 --> 00:18:42.369this thing completely legal right. ButI am I'm sort of okay with incremental23500:18:42.450 --> 00:18:47.650bands on abortion, like the thefetal heartbeat bills and things like that in23600:18:47.809 --> 00:18:52.130Alabama. I don't find myself beinglike saddened by that because I'm thinking,23700:18:52.170 --> 00:18:56.279okay, Mama's are not going tobe able to kill their babies past six23800:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.000weeks and I'm happy. So tellme why I'm wrong and can and don't23900:19:02.119 --> 00:19:04.240you know, don't don't hold backkause, because I'm not. I want to24000:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.079be corrected. I want to beconsistent with the Bible, absolutely and and24100:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.470that is the word. Brother,you hit the nail on the head without24200:19:12.470 --> 00:19:17.869me even having to say a word. Is Consistency. So for me and24300:19:17.990 --> 00:19:25.380you, we both love God andwe hate seeing murder of babies. To24400:19:25.500 --> 00:19:30.779be fully consistent, we have tohate all of that. Yeah, the24500:19:30.980 --> 00:19:36.299thing I see with legislation, whetherit's a twenty week band heartbeat bill,24600:19:37.980 --> 00:19:42.450you know, obviously the I meanwe've got a group of politicians out there24700:19:42.529 --> 00:19:45.410now, just like I was sharingwith the earlier about the democratic debates,24800:19:45.849 --> 00:19:51.250who don't even bother anymore. Yeah, because they're so gone. It's a24900:19:51.410 --> 00:19:55.839settled issue. We can practically,you know, unless that baby's walking out25000:19:55.880 --> 00:19:57.240of the building, we can killit. Yeah, you know, I25100:19:57.319 --> 00:20:02.720mean they're that's how far they've come. So that that's a bizarre, crazy25200:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.799mind set for me. But butgetting back to, you know, the25300:20:06.839 --> 00:20:15.470the legislation. A lot of thislegislation is almost impossible to enforce. Yeah,25400:20:17.430 --> 00:20:21.980not only that, is it putsa lot of the decisionmaking in the25500:20:22.140 --> 00:20:26.859hands of the very people who arecommitting the murders now and have been for25600:20:26.980 --> 00:20:32.180decades. Yeah, not good people. Right, murders, liars, steelers,25700:20:32.460 --> 00:20:37.690cheats, you know, lustful,corrupt everything you can label them.25800:20:37.049 --> 00:20:41.130That's where they are and we cannottrust those people. And by that you25900:20:41.250 --> 00:20:44.730mean like the people who run theabortion absolutely, yeah, the abortionist,26000:20:44.769 --> 00:20:47.809the ultrasound technicians, all those peoplethat are going on in there. So,26100:20:47.890 --> 00:20:55.359so what has really impressed me ofrecent years is some of these abolitionist26200:20:55.440 --> 00:21:03.000who have gone and testified before localcouncils, have testified in court situations,26300:21:03.119 --> 00:21:10.190who have testified in other areas thatthey have shared then their expertise and their26400:21:10.269 --> 00:21:17.230experience the the shortcomings of some ofthese legislations. Yeah, one being the26500:21:17.309 --> 00:21:19.940heartbeat bill, and Sarah Cleveland isan abolitionist and she's very seen her own26600:21:19.980 --> 00:21:26.740face because she has done some verygood interviews and testimonies regarding this, her26700:21:26.859 --> 00:21:33.170skill set and how easily a heartbeatbill can be avoided and being yeah,26800:21:33.250 --> 00:21:44.529be you know, gone around.Yeah, and and so the consistency is26900:21:44.730 --> 00:21:55.599so hard to maintain in a legislationthat has exceptions and compromise built in to27000:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.319it. Yeah, it, Imean, I say so hard, I27100:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.789think it's impossible. Quite honestly,yeah, I think you cannot be consistent27200:22:03.670 --> 00:22:10.150with abolition or the ending of inthe hatred of the sin of murder if27300:22:10.190 --> 00:22:21.859you celebrate as a victory the legislationthat has compromise and loopholes. Yeah,27400:22:22.059 --> 00:22:25.220speak right. Yeah, I meanyou have a you have, you know,27500:22:25.460 --> 00:22:27.859like I mentioned earlier, in NorthCarolina we had, believe it's two27600:22:27.859 --> 00:22:33.170thousand and thirteen, the women's rightto no act, which you said that27700:22:33.250 --> 00:22:36.450the woman was supposed to see theultrasound or at least given the opportunity to27800:22:36.450 --> 00:22:40.849see the ultra sounder for baby.There was information that from the state that27900:22:40.970 --> 00:22:44.799she had to have about the risksof abortion and fetal development and stuff like28000:22:44.839 --> 00:22:49.720that. There's a seventy two hourwaiting period and and then the twenty week28100:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.200ban, I think, was wrap. That could be kind of conflating things,28200:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.160I think maybe, but there wasa right away. There was a28300:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.910judge, because when I heard aboutthe ultrasound thing, I'm like, okay,28400:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.190we know the ultrasound does give awindow to the womb and it does28500:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.150save lives. Again, we'd haveto trust the abortion clinic is actually going28600:23:07.190 --> 00:23:11.309to do it. They are supposedto do but that got thrown out anyway.28700:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.059That got thrown out by some judgeand Greensboro like right away, and28800:23:15.259 --> 00:23:19.019then the information that's given to themas their counseling. I'm like, okay,28900:23:19.059 --> 00:23:22.059so we we're going to believe thisabortion clinic is actually going to give29000:23:22.059 --> 00:23:26.259them the proper information. And actuallywe found out they can just call up29100:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.490on the phone and that's how theyget their counsels. Are Recording or whatever.29200:23:30.210 --> 00:23:33.210But the twenty week band, tome it was like, okay,29300:23:33.289 --> 00:23:37.609if babies are saved from that,you know, I'm happy for I'm sort29400:23:37.690 --> 00:23:42.200of like people ask me about politics, I'm like the the go to ask29500:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.680your questions about abortion guy, becauseI'm in front of an abortion clinic on29600:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.720a regular basis and a lot oftimes I'm sort of embarrassed because, you29700:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.480know what, I don't really knowto about all this stuff. Nashally.29800:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.509All I know is I'm called tobe a witness for these babies at the29900:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.349abortion clinics and ask people to comeover and talk with me and convince them30000:24:00.430 --> 00:24:04.069not to kill her babies. Sowhen I hear stuff I hear like like30100:24:04.309 --> 00:24:07.869heartbeat bills and stuff like that,I you know, I'm not not down30200:24:07.910 --> 00:24:11.380about it. One of the thingsthat does trouble me and I think we30300:24:11.859 --> 00:24:14.539and this is sort of like,you know, I absolutely agree with this.30400:24:15.059 --> 00:24:18.819Are The exceptions? A matter offact, it seems like often times,30500:24:18.539 --> 00:24:22.859and that's what happened with Rov Wade, is the exceptions become the rule.30600:24:22.059 --> 00:24:26.410Yes, right, so the rapeexception, the incest exception and the30700:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.009health of the mother is like wow, okay, do we really believe that30800:24:30.130 --> 00:24:33.250this is a baby? And evenif it's a baby, even if it's30900:24:33.250 --> 00:24:38.759a person that was conceived in rape, there's no difference between that baby as31000:24:38.839 --> 00:24:45.480far as value is concerned or anyother thing concerned is concerned. Then a31100:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.720baby, he was not conceived inrape. So those exceptions certainly do cause31200:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.789me concerned. I'm like, well, this is, you know, these31300:24:52.829 --> 00:24:57.910are again loopholes. Like I said, yeah, the exceptions are there.31400:24:57.950 --> 00:25:03.349In on one hand they're clear,HMM, clearly wrong. On the other31500:25:03.470 --> 00:25:11.779hand we're talking about tragic, horrificcircumstances, because it then the reality of31600:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.500that. So rape, if awoman's rape, that's a horrible scene.31700:25:15.539 --> 00:25:19.619Oh yeah, committed against her,incest, horrible sin committed against her.31800:25:22.089 --> 00:25:29.569And certainly there are health conditions andmedical conditions where women are vulnerable and pregnancy's31900:25:29.609 --> 00:25:33.769not a you know it, althoughit's normal, some things it's very difficult.32000:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.079I grew up on a farm,birth and cows and horses and goats32100:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.640and you know all that, andso it's a and I you know,32200:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.000I saw my own children. Butyeah, so the animal kingdom moves into32300:25:44.000 --> 00:25:49.309the human so it is a there'sloss of blood, there's there's all kinds32400:25:49.349 --> 00:25:53.549of things that going on. Theirpain that you know, that can be32500:25:53.789 --> 00:26:03.230a scary situation and medical situation.So on the one hand that they're clear32600:26:03.990 --> 00:26:10.539that they're wrong and all the otherhand they are things that can be manipulated32700:26:10.700 --> 00:26:17.740and used to justify. Yeah,and so we have to again be consistent32800:26:18.650 --> 00:26:25.490that there is no justification for this, and sometimes that can come off,32900:26:25.970 --> 00:26:29.170you know, kind of hard.One of the things, you know,33000:26:29.650 --> 00:26:33.680you mentioned about several times now aboutjust being a regular guy. I'm so33100:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.240we have I'm a regular guy todid you? I'm not a I'm not33200:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.720a professional, I'm not a historian, I'm not a you know anything,33300:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.519just a guy loves Jesus and anda guy that hates sin of murder.33400:26:45.000 --> 00:26:51.150And so I don't have all theanswers, you know, and I don't33500:26:51.150 --> 00:26:56.150know how you, you know,walk a woman through some of these harsh33600:26:56.269 --> 00:27:02.380situations. But but I know thatwe cannot allow the rarity and the exception33700:27:02.619 --> 00:27:11.059to be the rule and we've gotto make sure that we do everything we33800:27:11.259 --> 00:27:15.259can according to the Scriptures and accordingto the love of God and the compassion33900:27:15.259 --> 00:27:21.450of God and the care that Godwould would offer to those exceptional cases.34000:27:21.609 --> 00:27:25.410Yeah, and I think that's wherewe fall short sometimes, and I know34100:27:25.529 --> 00:27:30.519you guys do a great job atthat, with the care and compassion that34200:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.920you show the ladies on the sidewalksand walk and giving them the opportunity to34300:27:36.039 --> 00:27:38.680have an ultrasound and to see thebaby and not be manipulated like they would34400:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.960be if there was a requirement inthe clinic to do an ultrasound where they34500:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.430could hide the heartbeat, they couldhide the end edge or they could tell34600:27:47.509 --> 00:27:52.309them some sort of deceptive lie thattheir child is deformed or something. You34700:27:52.470 --> 00:27:56.829guys are kind and compassionate and lovingand, you know, graceful and merciful34800:27:56.869 --> 00:28:00.259and you bring them in there andyou show them picture and you talk sweetly34900:28:00.299 --> 00:28:07.380to him and and those things areimpactful and they they exhibit Christlikeness to those35000:28:07.460 --> 00:28:12.130women and that's a drawl God,the spirit of God uses that. Yeah,35100:28:12.809 --> 00:28:19.730and one other thing is that,although we're highly opposed to the exceptions35200:28:19.809 --> 00:28:26.359and to the compromising legislation, Iknow from my own testimony and personal experience35300:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.559and from the word of God thatGod causes all things to work together for35400:28:30.680 --> 00:28:36.640good. Yeah, things that areabsolutely atrociously evil, wicked, sinful that35500:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.549that man does, God will workthose things out for those who love him35600:28:41.589 --> 00:28:47.109are call according his purposes. Soyou let a woman and you've talked with35700:28:47.230 --> 00:28:51.950them. I've talked with them.They have done murder, they have committeth35800:28:52.269 --> 00:28:56.019murder, murdered their preborn children,some of them numerous times. Yeah,35900:28:57.299 --> 00:29:02.259theyk find forgiveness, yeah, inChrist. They find new life in Gris.36000:29:02.420 --> 00:29:06.660Actually just had a moment today,who God calls peoples and clinic.36100:29:06.779 --> 00:29:11.450Yeah, God caused that horrible sinof murder and we work, we transition36200:29:11.650 --> 00:29:17.890from the horrible seeing and compromising legislationto the actual carrying out of that.36300:29:18.930 --> 00:29:22.490God can cause good to come outof that in the salvation of that mother36400:29:22.930 --> 00:29:29.240or future children or a husband ora relative or whatever. And I'm not,36500:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.000you know, don't you know,Miss Construe what I'm saying. I'M36600:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.200NOT JUSTIFYING RIGHT IN AL along theway, because we talked about that over36700:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.869there. There is no justification andwe got to be really that's a delicate36800:29:41.069 --> 00:29:47.549thing that that we, you know, kind of dance around sometimes or have36900:29:47.710 --> 00:29:55.140to maneuver through in order to not, you know, be justifying in our37000:29:55.220 --> 00:30:00.460thoughts and our words or presentation tosomeone else to allow them to justify.37100:30:00.500 --> 00:30:04.779Yeah. So, yeah, justsharing. We had today mom who came37200:30:04.859 --> 00:30:10.250to the abortion center and she wason her fourth abortion. She had three37300:30:10.369 --> 00:30:15.690prior abortions. Now she was underheavy pressure from the boyfriend, who was37400:30:15.730 --> 00:30:19.369a good guy except for the fourbabies he wanted to murder, three that37500:30:19.490 --> 00:30:22.880it already murdered. She came,thankfully, came on board the mobultry sound37600:30:22.920 --> 00:30:29.720unit and and Vicky and the othercounselors showed her babies fifteen weeks. She37700:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.720could see clearly little baby's feets andfeet and she's like, you know,37800:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.029in all of the same and ultimatelyshe came under conviction. They share the37900:30:38.069 --> 00:30:41.470Gospel. We do sort of theway of the Master Ray Comfort. When38000:30:41.589 --> 00:30:45.390shared the law, we lay iton them heavy and they see their sin.38100:30:45.829 --> 00:30:48.349It's like, well, Jesus needsto be Lord of your life.38200:30:48.390 --> 00:30:49.859This is not just the thing youdo on Sunday. You need to surrender38300:30:49.859 --> 00:30:52.660your life to cheese. And shedid and now she's, you know,38400:30:53.180 --> 00:30:57.380working through and now she's empowered togo speak to that boyfriend and be like,38500:30:57.859 --> 00:31:00.619you know, I'm not doing this. She didn't want to. I38600:31:00.740 --> 00:31:03.410was on the streets of Ashville aweek or so ago and I had a38700:31:03.890 --> 00:31:08.130lady and her friend approached me andI was holding my sign, graphic image38800:31:08.130 --> 00:31:15.210sign, and she she had mixedfeelings about what I was doing. She38900:31:15.569 --> 00:31:22.759was pro life. She was acounselor post abortive counselor, because she had39000:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.079had four abortions. Yeah, andshe that was very think first things out39100:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.400of her mouth when she approached mewas I've had four abortions and now I'm39200:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.990forgiven. I'm a Christian and I'mcounseling women who are post abortive and,39300:31:37.309 --> 00:31:41.869you know, trying to prevent them, you know, from doing abortion abortions.39400:31:41.950 --> 00:31:48.619But I am unsure about your methods. Yeah, what you're doing out39500:31:48.660 --> 00:31:52.299here holding a sign, and youknow what your friend is doing, preaching39600:31:53.140 --> 00:31:56.819so loud and you know, yeah, the Gospel, and you know some39700:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.339other things that he's say and youknow the law. Yeah, and I'm39800:32:00.420 --> 00:32:06.529thinking, I understand, you know, this image juice graphic and it is39900:32:06.650 --> 00:32:14.529graphic to me and it disturbs mebecause it's the reality. Yeah, and40000:32:15.529 --> 00:32:19.480what happens in Ashville, what happensin Charlotte, what happens in my city40100:32:19.559 --> 00:32:24.079of Hickory, where there's is noabortion clinic? Is that out of sight,40200:32:24.200 --> 00:32:27.839out of mind? Yeah, andand we've, you know, we've40300:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.349spent decades out of sight, outof mind, and and we're getting into40400:32:31.509 --> 00:32:38.869a time that we were seeing clinicsclose. And, YEP, we're seeing40500:32:39.309 --> 00:32:43.829new, bigger ones being built,but we're seeing a lot of clothes and40600:32:44.230 --> 00:32:52.140we're seeing maybe a drop at timesin numbers of statistics. are numbers that40700:32:52.180 --> 00:33:00.369are kept. Yeah, we getaccess to murders that are committed, but40800:33:00.369 --> 00:33:07.369you know, we're we're getting ina delicate, a tricky situation, because40900:33:07.769 --> 00:33:13.119the science is allowing these women tomurder their children much easier. Yeah,41000:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.799at home or in a hotel roomor, you know, these peels that41100:33:16.880 --> 00:33:22.920they can take that yeah, thatyou know. And so we've the the41200:33:22.079 --> 00:33:30.390issue of the Gospel and the Scripturesand the the immediate decisionmaking and and the41300:33:31.549 --> 00:33:37.470assistance that you provide a great dealof and that that it's necessary, and41400:33:37.990 --> 00:33:43.700and the agitation of showing the worldwhat's going on, just like they showed41500:33:44.660 --> 00:33:47.660the world slavery. Yeah, showedthe world the holocaust of the Jews.41600:33:49.819 --> 00:33:54.059The world has got to see thisand face it and in order to honestly41700:33:54.890 --> 00:34:00.009praise you know where they are?Yeah, I know some of the you41800:34:00.130 --> 00:34:05.690know, I actually try to stayas much as I can away from the41900:34:06.130 --> 00:34:08.929back and forth on facebook and socialmedia and all the stuff, because I42000:34:08.969 --> 00:34:13.679see, you know, I seeabolitionist folks argue with pro life folks and42100:34:13.760 --> 00:34:17.440prolife folks argue with each other anda Ja or abolition its folks argue other.42200:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.320It's like, man, there's alot argue going on and like man,42300:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.789I just I deal with like contentionevery day right out in front of42400:34:24.829 --> 00:34:28.389an abortion clink. I got wantto deal with it on social media as42500:34:28.389 --> 00:34:30.789I sort of stay out of it. But some of the contention I see42600:34:30.949 --> 00:34:37.550is kind of around methodology, whichis, you know, using victims of42700:34:37.590 --> 00:34:44.219abortion, which we actually we douse victim of abortion images. We don't42800:34:44.219 --> 00:34:46.780use them as much as we usedto because we find that our interactions are42900:34:46.820 --> 00:34:52.699more hostile. So we want tohave interactions where we're actually can have a43000:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.050conversation with somebody strategic with it,and I think you guys are, because43100:34:55.050 --> 00:35:00.369I think that when I've been withyou on the street and I brought my,43200:35:00.969 --> 00:35:05.329you know, graphic image, Istand there with my image. I43300:35:05.329 --> 00:35:09.000don't have a whole lot of interactionwith the actual girls they're going in or43400:35:09.119 --> 00:35:15.800women that are going in you,and but they everybody sees my sign.43500:35:15.920 --> 00:35:22.550Yeah, I have some interaction withthe you know, people who are evil43600:35:22.630 --> 00:35:24.590and wicked and want to, youknow, scream at me and curse me43700:35:24.989 --> 00:35:29.670or mock me. But, but, but do you guys have the images?43800:35:30.030 --> 00:35:34.829But you have them their strategically locatedand sometimes there with somebody who's doing43900:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.579basically the same thing I'm doing,which is exposing the evil. But you44000:35:38.699 --> 00:35:44.500have other people that are strategically located, that don't have the graphic image,44100:35:44.699 --> 00:35:49.380that are with you. Okay,so you got both sides covered. You're44200:35:49.420 --> 00:35:53.329exposing the evil and you're also,with this person, providing the opportunity to44300:35:53.369 --> 00:36:00.369talk and minister and share the Gospeland offer assistance and you know all those44400:36:00.409 --> 00:36:05.239other things. And so they seethat guy with the sign and they may44500:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.599be a little taken back by thator reject it, but they don't reject44600:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.199her. Yeah, her, youknow, comforting words or, you know,44700:36:13.400 --> 00:36:17.440call to talk. So you're reallygood at that. Okay. And44800:36:19.869 --> 00:36:23.789and those are things that we talkabout as abolitionist when we meet. Is44900:36:24.349 --> 00:36:30.550Strategy. Yeah, we've got tobe wise, you know, and we45000:36:30.670 --> 00:36:36.059got to be nice. But why? Why is the service and Genie?45100:36:37.019 --> 00:36:40.260So I don't want use the wordgentle now. Yeah, but we've got45200:36:40.380 --> 00:36:45.860to we got to be you know. Yeah, all in all, when45300:36:45.900 --> 00:36:47.849we when it comes to that.And so we talked about those things.45400:36:47.889 --> 00:36:52.929So when we go out, wekind of try to have the thing covered,45500:36:53.409 --> 00:36:59.409our basis covered when we go toyou know, that's why it's better45600:36:59.570 --> 00:37:01.280the more you people you have withyou, the more those things. When45700:37:01.280 --> 00:37:07.599we talked about some of the otherministries that are involved in pro life that45800:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.079you know, they don't engage.They may have a worship service or they45900:37:14.119 --> 00:37:21.510may do praying or they may singor whatever, but they don't engage.46000:37:21.710 --> 00:37:24.309Well, that's okay. I knowthat when I've been on the sidewalk and46100:37:24.429 --> 00:37:30.179I'm engaging and I'm one of afew and I'm out numbered twenty two one46200:37:30.900 --> 00:37:35.139by the other side. And youknow, and that in the spiritual warfare46300:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.500is already going on. Yeah,more some people. Yeah, and it's46400:37:37.500 --> 00:37:42.059dark and it's horrible in the enemiesthere, you know. And so,46500:37:42.380 --> 00:37:45.170and then all of a sudden yougot a group of thirty hundred people from46600:37:45.170 --> 00:37:51.090the church coming down the street singingand praising the Lord and preaching or or46700:37:51.769 --> 00:37:54.329praying or given testimony. That's anencouragement. Yeah, you know, and46800:37:54.449 --> 00:37:59.960it tends to shut down the youknow, the Voice of the Inn,46900:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.679I mean. Yeah, so,so those things are necessary and are good.47000:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.079We just can't we've got to beconsistent. I think that the consistency47100:38:07.119 --> 00:38:12.480needs to be with them, withus and us with them, you know.47200:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.829And and whatever area you're in,whether your sidewalk counseling or you're showing47300:38:16.869 --> 00:38:21.869a graphic image or you're preaching,you know, Street preaching the Gospel,47400:38:21.869 --> 00:38:27.070or if you're singing and worshiping.We those things need to be covered and47500:38:27.539 --> 00:38:31.420we need to be consistent and weneed to be together. Yeah, and47600:38:31.780 --> 00:38:37.179you know, the the body ofChrist, which is another part of abolition,47700:38:37.340 --> 00:38:40.059and I know it's part of yourheart, pro life, whatever you47800:38:40.139 --> 00:38:46.090want to call it. The bodyof Christ is the driving force, so47900:38:46.250 --> 00:38:52.449to speak. It's the spirit filledhuman you know that. That is the48000:38:52.530 --> 00:39:00.480body of Christ that is pushing thispower to overcome the evil that's that's in48100:39:00.599 --> 00:39:06.559front of us. So that guyover there who doesn't engage, only sings,48200:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.429or that guy over there that's onhis knees praying his heart out,48300:39:09.909 --> 00:39:15.630shedding tears, weeping, or theguy that's over here preaching the Gospel and48400:39:15.909 --> 00:39:17.750get letting them have it, butthe guy standing over here, Havn't with48500:39:17.869 --> 00:39:21.989the sign, not saying a word, the exposing the evil, or the48600:39:22.110 --> 00:39:27.500sweetheart setting over here saying mother,please let me talk to you, let48700:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.699me help you, let me sharewith you what I'm willing to do.48800:39:30.900 --> 00:39:35.019Every one of those people are mybrothers and sisters. Yeah, and we48900:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.809have got to be together. Yeah, I have no animosity. I've never49000:39:37.849 --> 00:39:42.570had any animosity toward you. I'vealways had the utmost respect for you and49100:39:42.650 --> 00:39:46.570your faithfulness and service, and andyet we have our differences. We've talked49200:39:46.570 --> 00:39:50.730about them. Right now. Yeah, that's okay, man. I want49300:39:50.730 --> 00:39:52.599to do that, but if youneed me, you call me. If49400:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.679you say Carl Dana, pay downhere, come hold your sign. I'm49500:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.039on there, you know. Andand if I needed you to come speak49600:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.519to a group that you know,you would come. Yeah, so that49700:40:02.599 --> 00:40:07.230that is an important thing. Andso I agree with you on some of49800:40:07.269 --> 00:40:10.949the social media kind of stuff.As at as an abolitionist, I could49900:40:10.949 --> 00:40:15.389have plenty of conflict. All howit does up my mouth or hold my50000:40:15.510 --> 00:40:17.070side sometime. Don't have to mymouth, just almost side and I get50100:40:17.110 --> 00:40:21.269plenty of conflict. I don't haveto go searching for it and I don't50200:40:21.269 --> 00:40:25.260have to show up at every argumentthat's out there. I do, I50300:40:25.539 --> 00:40:29.500like to debate, you know,and stuff like that, but at the50400:40:29.579 --> 00:40:32.780same time I try to keep inmind you're talking to a brother in Christ50500:40:32.900 --> 00:40:37.929here, and you have the spiritof God living you in mind of Christ,50600:40:37.969 --> 00:40:43.329and you don't no longer recognize peopleas their flesh. You recognize them50700:40:43.369 --> 00:40:45.969according to the spirit of God,and so you really need to be mindful50800:40:45.969 --> 00:40:51.000of that when you're debating and and, you know, hashing out some of50900:40:51.039 --> 00:40:52.920these differences. Yeah, yeah,I agree. Yeah, the body of51000:40:52.960 --> 00:40:58.800Christ working together. Let me stareone thing. Yeah, before we move51100:40:58.880 --> 00:41:07.789forward, you mentioned at the outsetabolitionists, pro life, Aja Osa,51200:41:07.630 --> 00:41:13.269there's there's all kinds of groups outthere that are that are everywhere in the51300:41:13.550 --> 00:41:17.940spectrum of abolitionist to pro life,whether you're consistent or inconsistent, how far51400:41:17.980 --> 00:41:24.900apart you are. There's everything andeverybody in between there. I'm I'm somewhere51500:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.739in between there. Yeah, okay. I know a lot of the guys51600:41:28.820 --> 00:41:31.019in Aha. I know that somea lot of the guys in Osa.51700:41:31.500 --> 00:41:37.610I know you. I know theguys in Love Life Charlotte. I mean51800:41:37.809 --> 00:41:45.889there's all kinds of stuff going onthat where Christians are involved. We consider51900:41:46.050 --> 00:41:53.199ourselves abolish abortion North Carolina, okay, and so we don't we don't want52000:41:53.239 --> 00:41:59.760to be labeled or tagged to thepoint that, you know, we're having52100:41:59.760 --> 00:42:05.230to be contentious or were having toconstantly defend things and answer questions about things52200:42:05.269 --> 00:42:12.829that we haven't a focus and aheart and a drive toward what's going on52300:42:13.429 --> 00:42:17.860right here in our backyard in NorthCarolina, and that is to abolish preborn52400:42:17.900 --> 00:42:22.739murder here. Yeah, and Idon't want to be distracted with constant,52500:42:23.099 --> 00:42:30.889you know, bickering or dissension withinthe rank, so to speak. We're52600:42:30.929 --> 00:42:35.809certainly willing to talk and have thesediscussions about differences or whatever, or methods52700:42:35.849 --> 00:42:39.889and all those things. But weso we just, you know, we're52800:42:39.889 --> 00:42:45.519abolition of society. We have thestate covered. We have people from Ashville52900:42:45.639 --> 00:42:51.000to Ashe County, to my areaof Hickory, to Thomasville, Charlotte,53000:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.599Greensboro, Raleigh, Jacksonville. Sowe're from the coast to the central to53100:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.590the mountains and and we're a ragtag, you know, Motley crew of53200:43:00.750 --> 00:43:05.389abolitionist and that's okay. Yeah,you know, and one of the things53300:43:05.429 --> 00:43:10.269I appreciate about you is your faithfulnessand being here in Charlotte, in a53400:43:10.510 --> 00:43:15.579in a central location for so long, you know, seventeen years of ministry53500:43:15.619 --> 00:43:22.219here, and and what's going onwith with Love Life Charlotte to a degree53600:43:22.780 --> 00:43:30.610that we're this area is an exceptionalarea in the sense that I hear a53700:43:30.730 --> 00:43:35.090lot from whether it's pro life orabolitionists around the country, that it's a53800:43:35.130 --> 00:43:38.690ghost town outside of clinics and mealsand yeah, in other parts of the53900:43:38.769 --> 00:43:43.639country and their begging and other partsof the world they're begging for other people54000:43:43.719 --> 00:43:45.719to just show up. Yeah,and so one of the things that we54100:43:45.800 --> 00:43:51.360talked about earlier was if you're beggingand you're wanting, people will just to54200:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.679show up. When they show up, don't go nitpicking, you know.54300:43:54.989 --> 00:43:59.309Yeah, what they're what they're doing. Necessarily, they showed up. Yeah,54400:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.230you know, give them a chance. One of the things I shared54500:44:02.269 --> 00:44:07.349with you is that, you know, we nippick a certain church that may54600:44:07.429 --> 00:44:12.179show up outside the clinic because we'veseen their bumper sticker inside the parking lot,54700:44:12.260 --> 00:44:15.820and then the next week another churchcomes down the street and the first54800:44:15.860 --> 00:44:19.980thing goes through your mind is,Oh Gosh, another bunch of them.54900:44:20.019 --> 00:44:22.619Yeah, you know, and youturn around and it's the people from your55000:44:22.619 --> 00:44:24.530own church ry. Yeah, youknow, God will put a check on55100:44:24.650 --> 00:44:29.650you real quick if you don't keepthose kind of things, you know,55200:44:29.889 --> 00:44:36.570in in perspective. So that's youknow, and I don't I'm not I55300:44:36.610 --> 00:44:38.280don't want to think, I don'twant you to think that I'm being selfish55400:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.320by coming here today, but oneof the things that I really value about55500:44:44.320 --> 00:44:49.400our time together is that I getan opportunity to share with the group and55600:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.949the people that you know and thepeople that are listening to this podcast or55700:44:52.949 --> 00:44:55.670viewing this podcast, abolition. Yeah, that's all I want to do.55800:44:55.909 --> 00:45:00.309Yeah, there it is. Ifyou got more questions, go to abolsh55900:45:00.349 --> 00:45:04.869abortion North Carolinecom and find your answers. Yeah, or, you know,56000:45:04.989 --> 00:45:07.340contact us and ask us. I'mnot out here to steal your people.56100:45:07.340 --> 00:45:12.820I'm not trying to infiltrate your group. I'm not trying to down you know,56200:45:13.019 --> 00:45:15.780downgrade anything you've ever done or whatother people are doing. I'm simply56300:45:15.860 --> 00:45:21.530presenting abolition and and I'm want tostick to the tenants and I want to56400:45:21.570 --> 00:45:25.849do it by assistance with your exceptionalat and I'm good at agitation. Yeah,56500:45:25.849 --> 00:45:29.570I like holding my sign and ifsomebody wants to talk, I'll be56600:45:29.650 --> 00:45:31.809glad to talk. And however youwant to come at me, you know56700:45:31.969 --> 00:45:36.400I'll try to be as gentle asI can, but I'm not going to56800:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.840compromise and I'm going to be consistentwith the law enough in the faith.56900:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.360Yeah. So, yeah, that'sgood. I appreciate you coming, man,57000:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.440because I think this is again aquestion that people have. People that57100:45:45.519 --> 00:45:52.949are that are brand new into prolifeor abolitionist stuff. I think need to57200:45:52.030 --> 00:45:58.989hear the conversation like this and needto understand sort of why these issues are57300:45:59.030 --> 00:46:02.030important, and I think a conversationlike this sort of takes away some of57400:46:02.070 --> 00:46:06.820the the contention that can be thereand some of the bad view either way.57500:46:07.019 --> 00:46:08.260Right, right, you know thebad view. The pro life people57600:46:08.260 --> 00:46:12.579are all like this, or theyabolitionist people are all like this, and57700:46:13.139 --> 00:46:16.300no matter what you know, thisis. I know that you're not speaking57800:46:16.500 --> 00:46:21.130speaking for everyone who's an age aperson or we claim to be an abolitionist.57900:46:21.130 --> 00:46:24.570I'm certainly not speaking for everybody thatwould claim to be prolife or whatever.58000:46:25.730 --> 00:46:29.610Not a monolithic group either way.Right. Ultimately, though, what58100:46:29.730 --> 00:46:34.400it comes down to is the Gospelbeing the center of the thing. Anything58200:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.519we do, we I say itand I'll say it again. I spoke58300:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.840with the church just the other night, with their evangelism team. I said,58400:46:39.880 --> 00:46:45.840listen, if we're doing anything thatis good, that's not reclaim in58500:46:45.880 --> 00:46:51.909the Gospel, it's just a humanitarianeffort. Right, humanitarian efforts are good.58600:46:52.150 --> 00:46:54.789That's fine. Do Humanitarian Efforts,but if you're going to claim to58700:46:54.829 --> 00:46:59.230be Gospel censored, that Gospel hasto be a part of what you're doing,58800:46:59.510 --> 00:47:05.300or else it's just a humanitarian effort. Jesus didn't say that that he's58900:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.940gonna build his humanitarian effort that's aboutto tell people Jesus didn't say that I'm59000:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.619going to build my prolife movement.Now he says I'm going to build my59100:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.050church and the gates of hell won'tprevail against it's not. The gates of59200:47:15.130 --> 00:47:20.489hell won't prevail against the abolitionist orthe pro life people or the Blah Blah59300:47:20.530 --> 00:47:23.050Blah, Blah Blah whatever. Thegates of hell do not prevail against the59400:47:23.170 --> 00:47:27.489Church of Jesus Christ and ultimately,what it's about, the true body of59500:47:27.530 --> 00:47:30.559Christ bring in the Gospel, andso I appreciate that that perspective from you.59600:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.320Appreciate you. You coming and talkingand I can't. God never said59700:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.679I could. He can and healways said he would. Yeah, this59800:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.920ain't about me and you and itain't about anybody else that we can lay59900:47:42.920 --> 00:47:47.110our eyes on. I learned along time ago, and discipleship and counseling,60000:47:47.949 --> 00:47:51.829been involved in that for twenty years, one on one, and you60100:47:51.949 --> 00:47:54.590know, groups and couples and allthose kind of things, is that you've60200:47:54.590 --> 00:47:58.739got to deal with the soul that'sright in front of you. Yeah,60300:47:58.940 --> 00:48:04.980and it's not about you and notnecessarily about them. It's about him.60400:48:04.980 --> 00:48:08.179Yeah, and when Christ is thecentral thing, the Gospel, which is60500:48:08.579 --> 00:48:12.619found in the word of God,stick to the truth, stick to the60600:48:12.739 --> 00:48:15.730Gospel, God will, will carryout his word, will not come back60700:48:15.849 --> 00:48:21.849board. His spirit is not incapable. Yeah, all power, all ability,60800:48:22.210 --> 00:48:25.650all work is done in Christ.And and that's how you change the60900:48:25.730 --> 00:48:29.360world. Yeah, that's how hechanged the world. That's how he commissioned61000:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.199US and commanded us to go outand do the same thing. Amen.61100:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.519Amen, I appreciate it. ButI appreciate you talking, man, and61200:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.079you're what's the website? Now?Abolish abortion North Carolina. Okay, abolish61300:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.150abortion North Carolina. And if somebodygoes on that website, is there like61400:48:44.230 --> 00:48:46.389a contact thing so they can cheatevery email? They should be able to61500:48:46.590 --> 00:48:51.389and they should also be able tosign our petition. We didn't get into61600:48:51.389 --> 00:48:53.670a whole lot of stuff like that, but you know you, I've seen61700:48:53.710 --> 00:48:59.019you guys down at the city councilmeeting. We've got to be out there,61800:48:59.139 --> 00:49:02.780we got to got to take advantageof every thing that that is set61900:49:02.860 --> 00:49:08.739before us to make a difference andbring the Gospel to the community. So62000:49:09.170 --> 00:49:15.250City Councils, your local legislators,your local, local communities, churches,62100:49:16.409 --> 00:49:24.679legislators, you know, state capitals, anything that you can do to present62200:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.039the message, petitions, whatever youcan do. Get out there and do62300:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.199it. Show up, speak up, you know. Yeah, do the62400:49:32.320 --> 00:49:37.199work of abolition. Yeah, okay, so that. Yeah, so connect62500:49:37.239 --> 00:49:45.030with with Carl on their website,abolish aboard or in see our North Carolinacom,62600:49:45.869 --> 00:49:49.190and then our website is Charlotte dotcities for Life Dot Org, and62700:49:49.230 --> 00:49:52.829they we also have a national websitethat we mentioned often, which is sidewalks62800:49:52.900 --> 00:49:55.820for life, so I walks thenumber four, and Lifecom, which is62900:49:55.860 --> 00:50:00.059an equipping website, which is basically, Hey, we've learned and we've learned63000:50:00.059 --> 00:50:02.179a lot. We've made a lotof mistakes and so I will counseling.63100:50:02.539 --> 00:50:06.860Here's the stuff that we've learned sincejust information out there to quit people,63200:50:06.900 --> 00:50:08.730to bring the Gospel to the abortioncenter. So those who are who are63300:50:08.730 --> 00:50:12.690listening, those who are watching,you can go to there. You can63400:50:12.730 --> 00:50:15.409connect with Carl their website. Weappreciate you, guys, and just pray63500:50:15.449 --> 00:50:20.289that you're blessed by listening to thispodcast and if you have a question about63600:50:20.289 --> 00:50:23.599this podcast or anything for me,Daniel Parks or d parks. Sorry,63700:50:23.639 --> 00:50:28.119at cities, the number four andlifecom. You can shoot me over an63800:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.119email. Be certainly willing to connectyou with Carl if maybe you need to63900:50:30.199 --> 00:50:34.639be connected with him or you haveany questions. But we appreciate all those64000:50:34.639 --> 00:50:39.389who watch and listen. Thanks andGod blessed. Use, MIL use,64100:50:42.869 --> 00:51:05.610give me my life, but nowthings too precious.